[linux-audio-dev] XAP: a polemic

David Olofson david at olofson.net
Mon Dec 16 23:33:01 UTC 2002


On Tuesday 17 December 2002 04.53, Pascal Haakmat wrote:
> 17/12/02 02:59, David Olofson wrote:
> > For the exact reason I've suggested once or twice: A musical time
> > aware effects might want to know the length of one beat, or one
> > bar. Why not just allow the user to select "beats" or "bars"
> > instead of "note value" when configuring such a plugin?
> >
> > If you have integer-only meters, you make it impossible to do
> > exactly that, in the cases where beat or bar sync is most
> > interesting; in polyrythmic compositions. Users will have to
> > resort to telling these plugins about the correct lengths in
> > other, potentially non-obvious and/or inaccurate ways.
>
> Well, I hope you're right.

So do I. ;-)


> > > I do not believe that the goal of instrument design should be
> > > to accomodate every possible musical expression under the sun.
> >
> > No, but we should at least try to cover what we know about, are
> > interested in, and can handle without too much trouble. (And I'm
> > definitely interested in exploring stuff beyond 4/4 and 6/8.)
>
> Of course. If it is really that little trouble, and, say, user
> interfaces don't suffer because they can no longer make a
> particular assumption, I suppose it is pure gain.

I think it's acceptable that applications just display the signature 
as two fp values with some decimals. That's ok for *.5 and *.25 and 
the like, but not very sexy for N/3 and the like. More sophisticated 
applications might look for nicer ways of expressing such values, but 
that's entirely optional.


> > > A
> > > musical instrument is always part of a culture and a history
> > > and this defines its use.
> >
> > So, you're not supposed to use cutting edge technology, unless
> > you're interested only in traditional western european music?
> >
> > That is very discriminating, not only towards other cultures, but
> > also towards those of us who want to experiment and explore
> > things beyond 12tET and simple rhythms.
>
> Discriminating towards other cultures? That is a bit of a stretch
> don't you think? Besides, discrimination (distinction) is the
> essence of culture.

Well, yes - I just meant that there is no need for the distinction, 
unless removing it results in real, technical issues.


> Of course you're supposed to use cutting edge technology. But,
> surely you realize that the desire for (technological) progress in
> art is itself firmly rooted in the Western canon? Let's not fool
> ourselves: Western musical tradition and Western technology are
> "where it's at" at the moment.
>
> Therefore any system or instrument we design, if it is to gain
> broad acceptance (which is by no means a given), must first and
> foremost address the concerns of "popular" music (for some
> definition of popular).

Yes. I just don't see a conflict here; that's my point.


> That is not discriminating against other cultures; what is
> discriminating is to think that you can reduce hundreds of years of
> culture and tradition to a decision about whether to use an int or
> a float.

That's not at all what I'm suggesting. There is a very big difference 
between "understanding something" and "supporting something".

A synth does not have to understand *any* musical scale to play 
1.0/octave. Yet, it can reproduce any pitch in the audible spectrum, 
and then some. As a result, it *will* play whatever you feed it, no 
matter what theory, culture or tradition the pitch values are related 
to.


> > > It makes little sense to say that the piano is a flawed
> > > instrument because it is so closely tied to Western musical
> > > values. In fact the opposite is true: the piano is one of the
> > > great instruments precisely because it lends itself so well to
> > > the expression of Western musical values.
> >
> > So what? I sure still want to explore harmonies beyond the 12tET
> > scale. We're not *excluding* anything here; just trying to find
> > the smallest common denominators for *music*, rather than just
> > for most kinds of western european music.
>
> There's obviously nothing wrong with wanting to explore eccentric
> scales. Personally I would also prefer to have that option. The
> question is whether the added complexity is justified. You seem
> very confident that the extra cost is neglible, which is good
> enough for me.

Ok. Let's just hope I'm right. ;-)


//David Olofson - Programmer, Composer, Open Source Advocate

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