[linux-audio-dev] Re: linuxaudio.org

[Marek Peteraj]

On Tue, 2004-01-13 at 11:43, Daniel James wrote:
> > Is there any chance you'd postpone it and announce the project and
> > the beta site on lad for further discussing before launching it?
> 
> No. As I've already explained, my view is that membership of a 
> particular mailing list does not confer veto rights over any project 
> that happens to have the words Linux and Audio in its name.
> 
> > Unfortunately, not much people did know about it, except those
> > you've contacted.
> 
> er... perhaps that's because I haven't made the initial public 
> announcement yet, which will go out tomorrow. I've been working on 
> this for less than two weeks, and some things take a few days to 
> prepare. 

I could help with that. I didn't know about that.

> 
> > there are lots of people who would like to
> > contribute to such project and lots of people with great ideas on
> > how to move on. It's just different when you make decisions on your
> > own.
> 
> We obviously have very different ideas about project management. Where 
> would the Linux kernel be if Linus hadn't started it by himself? (not 
> that I'm comparing my technical ability to Linus's for one moment.) 
> The alternative is to pre-announce the project, then form a committee 
> to discuss the issues for 20 years or more - examples would be 
> Xanadu, or GNU Hurd, or the lean and stable version of Windows.
> 
> I know from experience with libre software, wireless networks and many 
> other areas that it's all very well talking about a project, but if 
> there isn't one or two people to actually do the work then it won't 
> happen. You can call it leadership if you like, but I'm not out to 
> found a dictatorship here. I just happen to be the only person who 
> bothered registering the domain name and committed to seeing the 
> project through to launch.   
> 
> > Discussion is what shapes a project
> 
> No, action shapes a project. Discussion without action is just a 
> pressure wave in air.
> 
> > The problem is that we should follow
> > basic principles of democracy. This didn't happen. 
> 
> I think you're pre-judging an organisation that hasn't even launched 
> yet. If you read the Policy page of the website, you'll see I have 
> deliberately set up an organisation with a management board made up 
> of members representatives, which oversees the Director. 
> 
> > Did any voting 
> > happen?
> 
> Not yet.
> 
> > Any discussion?
> 
> Yes.
> 
> > You have obeyed lots of lad members by not  
> > asking them.
> 
> I'm sorry, but I don't understand what you mean here.
> 
> > My intention was based on following principles: 
> >
> > 1. inform about plans, ideas
> > 2. discuss, try to form conclusions
> > 3. take action
> 
> You've still got time to take action. 
> 
> > Seems like you'd like to go the other way around.
> 
> Actually, I don't see project management working in such a linear 
> fashion. There has to be 1, 2 and 3 happening in parallel.
> 
> > The problem is that the name 'linux audio' actually *represents*
> > both the linux audio developer community and the linux audio user
> > community
> 
> Not at all. Neither linux.com or linux.org have any special status in 
> the Linux community - they're just domain names. 
> 
> > both meet at a common place which is the lad or lau 
> > mailing list. It's where the discussion takes place
> 
> But not the action?
> 
> > Second problem is to find a way for new users and developers to
> > find everything they need related to linux audio *and* to make it a
> > meeting point, or even provide necessary resources to help new
> > audio projects grow.
> 
> Personally, I saw little value in replicating the work of existing 
> sites, or creating an all-encompassing portal.

Exactly, 'personally' is your problem.

>  
> 
> > The key is the name of the domain. It's 
> > www.linuxaudio.org.
> 
> Not any more, I'm afraid. If you wanted that domain name six months 
> ago you should have registered it then.

It doesn't matter who registers the site.

> 
> > The problem is lots of people won't find what 
> > they actually wanted to find on such place.
> 
> Until a couple of weeks ago there was nothing at all there, so I hope 
> this site will be an improvement.
> 
> > The consortium isn't the most necesary solution that will boost
> > linux audio
> 
> I disagree. If you don't want to co-operate, you are free to start a 
> better project. 
> 
> > it's not something people might find interesting 
> > if they want to know about linux audio.
> 
> The new user might be better off at other sites, it's true. 
> linux-sound.org or djcj.org already exist.
> 
> > It's 
> > 1. providing information,
> > 2. providing a meeting place for devs and users,
> > 3. providing necesary resources, similar to sf.net
> 
> That's your project, not mine. No-one is stopping you doing that.
> 
> > the members should be *natural persons*, lad
> > members, and the organisation should be focused on the *community*,
> > not on companies.
> 
> Again, you're talking about a different project. As for companies, who 
> do you think employs members of the community to work on Linux audio? 
> Linuxaudio.org gives libre software projects and companies equal 
> status - that's pretty rare for an industry body. 
> 
> > The
> > organisation should exist to protect the interests of the LAD
> > community.
> 
> As defined by yourself?

Are you kidding me? Who's the one taking action? Did i suggest to take a
look at xiph foundation or gnome foundation...?

>  All I'm trying to do here is bring people 
> together for mutual benefit, be they manufacturers, developers, or 
> users.
> 
> > That's why i *strongly* suggest - let's postpone it. Let's
> > discuss it. Let's make a decision at ZKM LAD meeting 2004 :)
> 
> I can't do that now. You're demanding veto power again.

??

> 
> > But a formal org. has no meaning if it isn't governed by law.
> 
> Plenty of important Linux-related organisations aren't legal entities. 
> If it proves necessary later, we can go down that path.
> 
> > How 
> > should it act and protect the interests of lad community?
> 
> We'll find out after the launch.
> 
> > time to start a organisation - a foundation consisting
> > of lad members.
> 
> If you look at the current membership list you'll see they mostly are 
> LAD members already.
> 
> > The question is not whether it's
> > *yours* or *mine*. 
> 
> I'm afraid it is, because you're trying to impose your decisions on 
> me.
> 
> > The point  is that it's an *acknowledged* place
> 
> Yes, for discussion among developers - Linuxaudio.org is both 
> different and complementary to the LAD list.
> 
> > every little thign 
> > happened to be discussed there, teh name of jack, the logo of lad,
> > the content of www.linuxaudiodev.org site, the LAD meetings etc and
> > i'm just mentioning thing which aren't related to coding
> 
> That's hardly everything. Let me be explicit about the limitations of 
> the current set-up.
> 
> 1. Generally, very poor relations between hardware manufacturers and 
> LAD community. You'd think that anyone writing a driver, or otherwise 
> offering gratis support for the audio hardware of a particular 
> manufacturer, would be welcomed with open arms. Not so - hackers 
> can't even get full specs sometimes, let alone technical partnership 
> or 'free as in beer' test kit.
> 
> 2. Fragmentation - what organisation there is, is informal. Companies 
> that want to have better relations with the LAD community don't know 
> where to start. Result - those companies aren't taking Linux based 
> audio products to the mainstream. Also see 1. above.

Do you think they will - without any users?

> 
> 3. Developers are busy. They don't always have the time or skills to 
> do advocacy, write articles for magazines or organise public events. 
> The result is that advocacy just isn't being done as much as it could 
> be. Linux has been around more than a decade, but it hasn't been 
> until this year that we'll see the first appearance of libre software 
> at audio industry trade shows. 

> > If the linuxaudio.org project intends to have official status, then
> > you should *first* take LAD and ZKM conference seriously
> 
> I do. They have a certain amount of natural authority.
> 
> > as 
> > something with official status.
> 
> You're just wrong here. They have no official status which allows them 
> to dictate how advocacy is done - neither do you.

So you do have official status then?

> 
> > By not doing that, you're actually completely careless about the
> > entire LAD community.
> 
> I think you're just complaining because you feel like the last to know
>  
> - even though it doesn't even launch until tomorrow. In the 
> pre-launch phase, I've discussed linuxaudio.org with every LAD member 
> that I know. 
> 
> > So how come you're the director of a consortium before lots of
> > linux audio people know about it
> 
> Lots of Linux audio people do know about it. The reason I made myself 
> the director is that someone has to take responsibility, and put in 
> the hours of unpaid work it requires to launch the project. If you 
> read the Policy page you'll see that the director has to answer to 
> the management board, which means I can easily be replaced after the 
> launch. 
> 
> > a director of a consortium 
> > which you wouldn't even think of if those people didn't develop
> > such apps?
> 
> I took this unpaid job on because no-one else was doing it.

Did you ask anybody? Any voting? 

>  So far, 
> I'm funding linuxaudio.org out of my own pocket. I'm quite aware of 
> the fundamental contribution of libre software developers to the 
> systems I use, which is why they have equal weight with companies on 
> the linuxaudio.org management board.

Sorry but 'equal' just isn't the right word for it, 95% vs. 5% would be.

> 
> > Woudln't it be better if those people we're acting in 
> > such position?
> 
> LAD members have had plenty of time to set up an organisation of this 
> nature, and none of them have. What does that tell you?

What should it tell me?

> 
> > Are you sure you're protecting the interests of the 
> > community?
> 
> Quite sure. Now please stop trolling and make a positive contribution.

Sorry. I didn't know that criticism = trolling for you.

> 
> Cheers
> 
> Daniel James
> Director
> http://linuxaudio.org
> 
> 

Marek