[LAD] [ANNOUNCE] Safe real-time on the desktop by default; Desktop/audio RT developers, read this!

Lennart Poettering mzynq at 0pointer.de
Mon Jun 22 13:38:01 UTC 2009

On Mon, 22.06.09 15:05, Fons Adriaensen (fons at kokkinizita.net) wrote:

> On Mon, Jun 22, 2009 at 09:24:24AM +0100, Bob Ham wrote:
> > There's something wrong here.
> There is a lot wrong here.
> * Question: is the 'demoting' of RT-threads applied only to RT
> threads granted by this daeomon, or does it apply to all, including
> those created by processes running as root ? In the latter case this
> system is not only broken, but should be classified as malware.

Is that so?

It can do both. resetting all is the default.

> * Why should an app running on an headless system at RL3 be forced
> to go through a collection of desktop-oriented daemons in order to
> do something that amounts to a simple POSIX system call ?

It shouldn't. 

Quoting myself from the announcement: "If you don't do RT development
or doing RT development only for embedded cases, ... then it doesn't
mean anything for you."

rtkit is only relevant for the desktop. end of story.

A "collection of desktop-oriented daemons"? Do I smell D-Bus fud
again? This is getting so old. And stays so wrong. D-Bus is deeply
rooted in system now, even the init system speaks it now. Get over it

> * Claiming that 'group based security is broken' is not only
> a show of ignorance, but also of arrogance. All UNIX sysadmins
> of the last 30 years must have been idiots. 

Oh my. Just because someone mentions that UNIX has issues you don't
have to call him "ignorant" and "arrogant".

Also, it's not me who declared that UNIX groups are broken. That's a
fight others have sucessfully fought through the distros
already. PolicyKit entered all major distributions. 

If you think that UNIX is the only true verity and think that pk is an
abomination then bring that up with the pk guys, not with me. 

> * I don't run a 'desktop' on any machine, nor do I want one.
> The thing I'm looking at is a computer screen, and that's it.
> I want to remain the master of my system, whatever I do is
> by definition to be trusted. This includes running RT threads 
> that may block the machine. I'm not married into the Kit 
> family, and the last thing I want is this collection of 
> mothers-in-law interfering with my system. If the the desktop
> kids want this sort of thing that's fine. Let them build it
> into their desktops, but keep it out of the operating system.  

Then don't do it. You are clearly not the intended audience of rtkit

Have you actually read my announcement mail? This stuff is only useful
for out-of-the-box RT support on major distributions. If you roll
everything your own, because that makes you happy, then ignore rtkit.

Also, rtkit is just an offer. No need to adopt it if you think it is
an abomination. But if you do care that your software performs well
out-of-the-box on newer distros then think about it. The API is there,
you just make use of it.

> * All this talk from the freedesktop crowd about 'security'
> is as misleading as it can be, *All* security violations
> I've seeen lately on any of my systems were generated by
> these desktop madness. This includes:

Yes, we hate security. And it is our declared objective to make your
life miserable. Surprised?

> * If this trend continues then within a year or two 
> there will some 'FilesystemKit' that requires the OK
> from freedesktop.org each time you open a file. And
> no doubt also a 'DecencyKit' checking the color of 
> your underwear.

Didn't you know, it's world domination we are going for! We want to
control your computer and then you, muhahaha. And we take away your
freedoms. And creating a working desktop is just our cover for
this. Muahahahaah!  Muahahahahaahahaaaa!

> * It is IHMO high time to start the development of a
> kernel patch that removes all of this, and provides a 
> clean POSIX system to those who want it.

Yes, do it! Not sure what exactly you want to patch out. But please do


Lennart Poettering                        Red Hat, Inc.
lennart [at] poettering [dot] net
http://0pointer.net/lennart/           GnuPG 0x1A015CC4

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