[LAU] Laid to rest is Pro Tools LE"...

[Hartmut Noack]

Am 03.03.2011 20:49, schrieb Kim Cascone:
>> Hello Kim,
>>
>> Yes I know that article, which is very biased I think, but I was
>> referring to your article on CDM in which you state that for music
>> production on Linux one only needs ALSA (or FFADO for FireWire) and JACK.
> I see - this is correct and true - until one encounters other legacy
> layers which might present problems -- I have a vague memory of needing
> to add a Jack<-->ALSA midi bridge for Yoshimi synth as well as some sort
> of OSS ALSA mod for some other app to work - sorry but details are fuzzy -

I use to abandon any software, that does not work with jack at all, 
pardon is granted only for video-editors, for now. This limits the 
possibilities a bit but saves me a lot of time and trouble.

> and also true is that one can use a distro that makes all this invisible
> to the user and streamlines the work needed to set up a workflow and get
> things customized but finding these other (sometimes arcane) distros is
> not all that easy -- the low hanging fruit is Ubuntu Studio which is
> rife with issues and no easier to use really than installing Ubuntu and
> setting up your own workflow with apps and utilities - which is what I
> have done because I didn't want to switch to another distro i.e. staying
> with Ubuntu was easier and didn't interrupt my busy work schedule etc etc

As of now I use Fedora on the Laptop and Suse on the big box. And I do 
exactly the same things on both machines. Ardour, running Guitarix, 
playing synths with seq24, experimenting a bit with Snd, Qtractor, LMMS 
and Rosegarden.

If you ask me: distributions and even desktops do not matter much as 
long as RT-settings are correct and working (wich is the case on both my 
systems and on all systems I keep installed for more than 5-6 h)


>
>>>> >> As for tweaking conf
>>>> >> files, at the moment there are very few files you might have to
>>>> tweak,
>>>> >> /etc/security/limits.d/audio.conf (or /etc/security/limits.conf)
>>>> for the
>>>> >> necessary permissions, maybe /etc/systcl.conf for some
>>>> performance gain
>>>> >> and /etc/fstab to add noatime to the necessary mounts.
>>> > > yeah thanks, been there - done that -- sorry but that statement
>>> right
>>> > there is why most people working in music won't come anywhere near
>>> Linux
>>> > for production
>>> >
>> Sorry Kim, I didn't want to sound patronizing:(
> not at all -- I was just pointing out that what works for you and me (as
> more technically advanced users) will NOT work for 99% of the laptop
> musicians we know who don't want to get bogged down in technical details
> -- really all they want to do is 2xclick on Albleton Live and start
> making music - having them tweak a .conf file just get xruns to a
> minimum is *not* going to happen...so that perception of Linux audio
> (right or wrong) is what keeps people from adopting Linux as a
> production platform - and I know this from traveling the world and
> meeting hundreds of laptop musicians every year...less than 1% are on
> Linux...the Apple logo glows from most of the laptops I see staring back
> at me in my workshops ;)
>> There are people
>> working on making it easier to set this up, I've seen some mock-ups for
>> Ubuntu Studio and Filipe Coelho from KX Studio is working on something
>> similar too.
> true there are people working on making it easier - for years Linux
> audio has made slow gains in being more robust, stable and easy to set
> up a workflow rather than learning bash scripting - but there is still a
> mess of layers and conflicting services that make for a complex and
> confusing environment for most n00bs.

This is true in a way: you cannot be sure, that the next system you 
install will still run RT-software as good as possible with Linux. But 
this is absolutely NOT the fault of the developers. It is the fault of 
the distributors.

Whenever I mention RT-stuff/pro-audio to distro-people at conferences or 
events like Linuxtag, they keep demonstrating curiosity and padding my 
shoulder very very friendly expressing their "great exitement" about 
"what strange and marvellous things" cane be done lately under Linux. 
And telling me, how "exiting" it is to start Audacity to transfer their 
favourite BoneyM-LP to CD.
Sorry for the rant -- I actually never met anybody from any distro who 
admitted to be in possession of a BoneyM-LP.
But in fact I did not met anyone from any distro that made a substantial 
commitment towards the Pro-Audio community under Linux.

And all the specialized Distros like AV-Linux or 64Studio are more or 
less one-man shows that depend on the deeds of the distros (e.g. Ubuntu, 
Debian, Suse) their often astounding work is built upon.

So I am quite sure: If anybody wants Linux to be better for musicians 
should concentrate on two things:

1.) press distributors to recognize the matter as "important" or at 
least "relevant".

2.) support free devs with collaboration(code, bug-reports, feedback), 
money and evangelizing -- in that order...

best regards

HZN

> Again, I refer you to the article
> I wrote for CDM where I enumerate the various ways in which this happens.
>>>> >> Imho I think you can add conservatism, sheer ignorance or simple
>>>> denial
>>>> >> that stuff can be done with Linux;)
>>> > I'd say that 'simple denial' exists on both sides of the issue;)
>>> >
>> You mean that I for example don't know about the needs and desires of
>> potential Linux audio users?
> I'd say that many Linux users who think nothing of suggesting that all
> someone need do is tweak a .conf file and enter the trial and error
> Linux dance of minimizing xruns are indeed in 'simple denial' about the
> needs of average laptop musician...not a criticism of you so much as an
> observation from having been a Linux user for nearly 6 years now and a
> 100% Linux audio user for almost 2 years.
>
> To wit: many responses from various Linux audio lists to obvious
> problems that stem from poorly thought out applications, and the bugs
> plaguing them, all suffer from the brow-beating and arrogance of those
> who are more technically advanced versus those who just want to make
> music and not get a degree in computer science. This is not an effective
> way to win friends and influence people into adopting Linux.
>
> But again, it is true that if more people knew about Pure Dyne (an
> amazing distro), AVLinux (another top notch distro) or Tango Studio
> (http://tangostudio.tuxfamily.org/en) then less of these 'set-up' type
> problems would keep people from at least trying out Linux for audio
> production.
>
> Now the 'crapplications' that exist are another story - getting crap
> software out of way involves both holding the developer's feet to the
> fire to squash bugs and not just leave development in limbo (how many
> Linux audio apps are there on Sourceforge that haven't been updated
> since early to mid 2000's?) and to listen to and take seriously the
> suggestions and criticisms of those people who actually MAKE MUSIC and
> use the software. Bedroom software developers have never had to learn to
> eat their own dogfood.
>
> But unfortunately the public perception of Linux is still that it is
> geek-ware and not user-friendly.
>
> all in a days work,
> kim
>> Best,
>>
>> Jeremy
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