<div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif"><br></div></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Thu, Dec 10, 2020 at 12:04 PM Andrew A. Grathwohl <<a href="mailto:andrew@grathwohl.me" target="_blank">andrew@grathwohl.me</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div>
Yeah, yeah, I know. Once again, you reveal yourself unable to be
even a little imaginative, elastic, or thoughtful in your responses
to other people on the internet.<br></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div><div style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif" class="gmail_default">I have no idea what this is in response to, but it seems unnecessarily ad hominem.</div><br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div>
<br>
He said it right here in your quote, Mr. Davis.<br>
<br>
"This presented what was for me a new way of hearing music – as part
of the ambience of the environment just as the colour of the light
and sound of the rain were parts of the ambience.”<br>
<br>
A new way of *hearing* music. In a religious ritual, the gathered
faithful practicing their _religion_ is absolutely a part of the
ambience. Even as an atheist it is totally possible for me to
comprehend that for some, religious ritual can occur assisted by
music, and then that music can entirely fall out of primary sensory
comprehension once reaching the appropriate state. Whether it is
inside or outside of primary sensory focus is up to the individual
in that space.<br></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div><div style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif" class="gmail_default">I wrote what I said based on multiple-days worth of listening to Eno talk, not my own musical taste or compositional preferences. It's not by accident that every release of Ardour is named after an Eno release. I would say that it is you who are trying to mix in the way *you* listen to Eno-coinage ambient as well as various religious devotional music, rather than what Eno has actually said about it (and also what some performers of religious devotional music have said too). Eno has been extremely clear that he saw no connection between the way he imagined ambient music, or the way he imagined ambient music being used, and any other form of musicking. <br></div><div style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif" class="gmail_default"><br></div><div style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif" class="gmail_default">Now, it certainly is the case that many people who enjoy listening to Eno-coinage ambient also enjoy many other forms of music that do not obviously require the foreground experience that many would assume was present for lots of other music. Gregorian chant is a good example. And I see nothing wrong with that - I do it myself. But that's just a personal preference, a personal approach to musicking, and has nothing to do with how Eno saw what he was doing. It's also very disconnected from the way that the practitioners of religious trance music have historically seen their own practice and art form, which is intended to fully immerse the listener and engage them with the wonders of god's creation (however they might conceive of this). <br></div><div style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif" class="gmail_default"><br></div><div style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif" class="gmail_default">I know two Benedictine monks, and although I know they would be humorous and offer a wry smile if you suggested to them that their morning chanting practice was "as ignorable as it is listenable", they would almost certainly at some point try to correct you and make it clear how important the words are, and how much you are intended to be overwhelmed by the form: in short, by how you should never, ever be "ignoring" chanting. <br></div><div style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif" class="gmail_default"><br></div></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div>
<br>
The Qawaal musics in Pakistan achieve the same thing for the Sufi,
but people would not call it ambient, I suppose, due to the rhythmic
and melodic nature of the practice.</div></blockquote><div><br></div><div><div style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif" class="gmail_default">The lyrics in Qawaali music are absolutely central to their intended musicking. The pieces are not intended to be listened to as "pure sound". The most famous Qawaali singer of the 20th century was extremely clear about this. Like Gregorian chant, the music is not intended to induce a state of disconnected trance or even just a pleasant state of mind. It is music that sings of the glories of god, vigorously, and however "trance-like" someone outside of the tradition may find it, there is no sense in which this music, either, can ever be considered "ignorable" by its composers or practitioners. Even the Sufi dancers are quite explicit about *not* entering a "trance" state during their practice, but becoming more focused and more clear on god's glory. <br></div><div style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif" class="gmail_default"><br></div></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div>
<br>
It's clear you've never had such an experience in your life - the
kind that the Gregorian chant people were going for. There are many
ways of getting there, and I hope that you have access to at least
one of those means in your lifetime.<br></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div><div style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif" class="gmail_default">How on earth do you know this? You know absolutely about my personal history, least of all my listening experiences. I do not understand why you would choose to throw in such a personal remark to what I see as a fundamental disagreement between Eno's clearly stated take on what "ambient" is and how the long history of religious ritual music is seen by those involved in it.<br></div><br></div><div style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif" class="gmail_default">You are, as is everyone else, entirely free to listen to whatever music you want in whatever way you want, and to draw connections between your experiences of listening to different kinds of music. But that doesn't mean you can just hand-wave away the core differences between centuries of religious ritual and the very specific idea that Eno had in a very specific moment a few decades ago.</div><div style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif" class="gmail_default"></div><br></div></div>