23 Jan
2004
23 Jan
'04
7:09 p.m.
First i'd like to say, that i'm not going to subscribe to the consortium
mailing-list, because as i see it, by subscribing to this ml i would
silently agree to the idea of a consortium.
> So, with these sorts of issues in mind, would it
be possible to
> characterize the group by means of a less intimidating term?
> "Advocacy group" works for me (it is, after all, a purely voluntary
> association that carries no legal obligation with it), although
> I'd
> be glad to talk about alternatives.
The only alternative i see is a non-profit organization consisting of
natural persons, a legal entity.
It is the case that we've already announced
linuxaudio.org as a
consortium.
This was another reason why i asked to postpone it.
Just to demonstrate how easy it is to get confused:
"[linux-audio-announce] LINUXAUDIO.ORG CONSORTIUM LAUNCHED TO CREATE PROFESSIONAL
AUDIO TOOLS Daniel James (Thu Jan 15 2004 - 16:04:08 EET)"
Was a consortium really launched to *create*?
Who will be given credit if the linux audio apps become widely used? The consortium?
It's members? Which members?
However, once the management board is in place -
hopefully next week - they could discuss this issue. We certainly
don't want to put anyone off from joining.
The problem is that projects aren't organisations from a legal point of view.
Combining them with companies doesn't make much sense.
A foundation would offer additional protection as it would
consist of developers participating in linux audio projects
which are subject to such additional protection.
Problems such as those Fred pointed out could be easily avoided.
The problem with the domain is - the term 'linuxaudio' has become a
"trademark", sort of.
It represents the linux audio developers, the linux audio users, linux audio
applications/projects.
I hoped it to be a home for LAD, LAU and LAA, and to offer more - community news,
documentiation and tutorials, etc.
Unfortunately this isn't happening. It puts a consortium of companies in the spotlight
while keeping the community aside.
I was surprised to see how many of lad subscribers and you guys underestimate the issue
that LAD is not "only a" mailing list anymore.
Just an example - 2 job offerings were posted on LAD during this week. Having a job
bulletin board on linuxaudio.org would come very handy
for those searching for *linux audio* related jobs. Per analogiam, *linux audio* users,
developers etc would find *linux audio* related information.
Marek
23 Jan
23 Jan
7:39 p.m.
Marek Peteraj <marpet(a)naex.sk> writes:
What's *exactly* the difference from a Consortium?
Do you think that natural persons don't have their own agenda? Or
they don't work for companies? Or they couldn't be a part of the
consortium as natural persons but put their company's agenda forward?
Yes, in the widest possible sense of "creating" (which is not only
writing code, although this is of course a very important part).
And of course, focusing on a press release *title* is quite an
interesting way to discuss the goals and workings of any organization.
Do you usually reply to e-mails on the basis of the Subject: line ?
First i'd like to say, that i'm not going
to subscribe to the
consortium mailing-list, because as i see it, by subscribing to this
ml i would silently agree to the idea of a consortium.
This is not the case.
In any case, we encourage discussion on all issues, even on the nature
of the "association" which is being formed (see the mail from Fred
Gleason).
If you don't want to subscribe, so be it. But don't come back later
accusing anyone of keeping discussions "closed". And don't whine if I
forget to put you in Cc:.
> So, with
these sorts of issues in mind, would it be possible to
> characterize the group by means of a less intimidating term?
> "Advocacy group" works for me (it is, after all, a purely voluntary
> association that carries no legal obligation with it), although
> I'd
> be glad to talk about alternatives.
The only alternative i see is a non-profit organization consisting of
natural persons, a legal entity. It is the case
that we've already announced linuxaudio.org as a
consortium.
This was another reason why i asked to postpone it.
Just to demonstrate how easy it is to get confused:
"[linux-audio-announce] LINUXAUDIO.ORG CONSORTIUM LAUNCHED TO CREATE
PROFESSIONAL AUDIO TOOLS Daniel James (Thu Jan 15 2004 - 16:04:08
EET)"
Was a consortium really launched to *create*? Who will be given credit if the linux audio apps
become widely used?
The consortium? It's members? Which members?
I suppose that intelligent people will give credit to the
applications' authors, to documentation writers', to events'
organizers, etc, etc.
The problem is that projects aren't organisations
from a legal point
of view.
Not all of them.
Combining them with companies doesn't make much
sense. A foundation
would offer additional protection as it would consist of developers
participating in linux audio projects which are subject to such
additional protection.
Which additional protection, *exactly*?
Problems such as those Fred pointed out could be
easily avoided.
Please show how.
The problem with the domain is - the term
'linuxaudio' has become a
"trademark", sort of.
Sort of, exactly.
It represents the linux audio developers, the linux
audio users,
linux audio applications/projects.
I hoped it to be a home for LAD, LAU and LAA, and to
offer more -
community news, documentiation and tutorials, etc.
As I already told you, I'm more than willing to propose, as soon as
the voting rules are established, that specific subdomains of
linuxaudio.org be devoted to such services.
I personally won't have the time to work on the actual services. I'm
confident that willing people will do that. Are you volunteering?
Unfortunately this isn't happening. It puts a
consortium of
companies in the spotlight while keeping the community aside.
Of the 18 members currently listed on:
http://linuxaudio.org/en/members/index.html
we have:
- 10 Libre Software projects (AGNULA, ALSA, Ardour, Audacity,
dyne:bolic, GStreamer, Jack, Jamin, Plugin.org.uk, Rosegarden)
- 2 companies which are directly involved with Libre audio
applications (Fervent Software, Linux Audio Systems)
- 2 companies (Mandrake Soft, 4Front Technologies) which might not be
*so* directly involved, but have contributed to Libre Software in
general;
- 4 companies (Boost Hardware, Core Sound, Lionstracs, Mirror Image
Studios) which have showed interest in Libre Software and are
providing customers with GNU/Linux based audio systems;
I honestly can't see how the companies are put into the spotlight
(supposing this is wrong "per se", something I don't believe).
I was surprised to see how many of lad subscribers
and you guys
underestimate the issue that LAD is not "only a" mailing list
anymore.
You underestimated it in the first place, given the fact that
linuxaudio.org has been free for a long time.
Just an example - 2 job offerings were posted on
LAD during this
week. Having a job bulletin board on linuxaudio.org would come very
handy for those searching for *linux audio* related jobs. Per
analogiam, *linux audio* users, developers etc would find *linux
audio* related information.
Again: I'm more than willing to propose the other consortium's members
to provide hosting space for such services. Are you volunteering to
maintain them?
bye,
andrea
10:57 p.m.
If you don't want to subscribe, so be it.
But don't come back later
accusing anyone of keeping discussions "closed".
What are you talking about? I contacted Daniel immidiatelly after i
found out about this. Pretty much everything was private at that time.
That's a huge difference. And there's still no neutral place which would
serve for advocacy related discussions.
And don't whine if I
forget to put you in Cc:.
You don't have to. Luckily i can *now* read it here:
http://lists.agnula.org/pipermail/consortium/2004-January/thread.html
Was a
consortium really launched to *create*?
Yes, in the widest possible sense of "creating" (which is not only
writing code, although this is of course a very important part).
And of course, focusing on a press release *title* is quite an
interesting way to discuss the goals and workings of any organization.
Do you usually reply to e-mails on the basis of the Subject: line ?
?
Who will be given credit if the linux audio apps
become widely used?
The consortium? It's members? Which members?
I suppose that intelligent people will give credit to the
applications' authors, to documentation writers', to events'
organizers, etc, etc.
The problem is that projects aren't
organisations from a legal point
of view.
Not all of them. Combining them with companies doesn't make
much sense. A foundation
would offer additional protection as it would consist of developers
participating in linux audio projects which are subject to such
additional protection.
Which additional protection, *exactly*? Problems such as those Fred pointed out could be
easily avoided.
Please show how. Unfortunately
this isn't happening. It puts a consortium of
companies in the spotlight while keeping the community aside.
Of the 18 members currently listed on:
http://linuxaudio.org/en/members/index.html
we have:
- 10 Libre Software projects (AGNULA, ALSA, Ardour, Audacity,
dyne:bolic, GStreamer, Jack, Jamin, Plugin.org.uk, Rosegarden)
- 2 companies which are directly involved with Libre audio
applications (Fervent Software, Linux Audio Systems)
- 2 companies (Mandrake Soft, 4Front Technologies) which might not be
*so* directly involved, but have contributed to Libre Software in
general;
- 4 companies (Boost Hardware, Core Sound, Lionstracs, Mirror Image
Studios) which have showed interest in Libre Software and are
providing customers with GNU/Linux based audio systems; I honestly can't see how the companies are put
into the spotlight
(supposing this is wrong "per se", something I don't believe).
"consortium of companies and libre software projects"
That's
1. companies
2. libre software projects.
I was surprised to see how many of lad
subscribers and you guys
underestimate the issue that LAD is not "only a" mailing list
anymore.
You underestimated it in the first place, given the fact that
linuxaudio.org has been free for a long time. Just an example - 2 job offerings were posted
on LAD during this
week. Having a job bulletin board on linuxaudio.org would come very
handy for those searching for *linux audio* related jobs. Per
analogiam, *linux audio* users, developers etc would find *linux
audio* related information.
Again: I'm more than willing to propose the other consortium's members
to provide hosting space for such services. Are you volunteering to
maintain them?
24 Jan
24 Jan
12:56 p.m.
Marek Peteraj <marpet(a)naex.sk> writes:
You could read everything even before, you just had to subscribe. The
reasons why the set-up was as it was have already been explained.
*None* of them. There's only one relationship between the authors of a
project and the project itself. Copyright.
Speaking of Libre Software projects in general, that's not true (that
they are not organizations from the legal point of view - it depends).
So what if a company(member) that has no direct involvement in a project
abuses that project(member)? How is your consortium going to protect the
project?
What are the ways in which a consortium member could abuse another
consortium meber in any way that it can't already do?
In any case, see points 4-7 of the policy.
Not unless the domain acts as home for LAD, LAU and LAA at first place.
I'm even willing to buy that domain for the purpose of providing it for
the three mailinglists.
Even though I've been thinking for some time to propose the other
Consortium's members to change domain name (just for the sake of not
losing time on stupid arguments like this) it's highly probable that I
would vote *against* selling it to you, given the way in which you are
presenting your ideas and your obvious prejudice against companies
(and, I should add, the basic fact that you accurately avoid answering
questions you don't know how to answer).
What are you talking about? I contacted Daniel
immidiatelly after i
found out about this. Pretty much everything was private at that
time. That's a huge difference. And there's still no neutral place
which would serve for advocacy related discussions.
AGNULA will gladly offer hosting space for any such mailing list.
If we reach a consensus on how to handle this thing, I could even
propose (as a consortium member) to host the mailing list under the
lists.linuxaudio.org domain. But obviously you don't want to mesh
your purity with such an evil organization (there are even companies
as members, no more!).
In any case, if you need hosting space for your domain, mailing list,
web site, whatever, feel free to drop me a line:
<andrea.glorioso(a)agnula.org>
And
don't whine if I
forget to put you in Cc:.
You don't have to. Luckily I can *now* read it here:
http://lists.agnula.org/pipermail/consortium/2004-January/thread.html The problem is that projects aren't organisations
from a legal point
of view.
Not all of them. Combining them with companies doesn't make much
sense. A foundation
would offer additional protection as it would consist of developers
participating in linux audio projects which are subject to such
additional protection.
Which additional protection, *exactly*? Electing Fred as a member of that organization since
he's a natural
person, he's active in a project.
And how would this solve the problems you are talking about? How
would this avoid the problems I talked about?
(For the record, I have no problem with Fred and/or Salem Radio being
members of the Consortium).
"consortium of companies and libre software
projects"
That's
1. companies
2. libre software projects.
Let me understand.. if we had said "consortium of libre software
projects and companies" it would have been ok to you?
Just an example - 2 job offerings were posted on
LAD during this
week. Having a job bulletin board on linuxaudio.org would come very
handy for those searching for *linux audio* related jobs. Per
analogiam, *linux audio* users, developers etc would find *linux
audio* related information.
Again: I'm more than willing to propose the other consortium's members
to provide hosting space for such services. Are you volunteering to
maintain them? We need *basic* services first, if we want to promote
linux audio.
That's providing news, and documentation, tutorials for both developers
and users.
You know, people here have been doing it for some time, without
worrying too much about domain names. If you are willing to
contribute, I have plenty of things to do inside AGNULA (documentation
writing, graphical artwork, web mastering, news collecting and
newsletter writing) that are *all* libre and could use some help.
Establishing a serious organization governed by
law(ownership,
contracts, tax exemptions, grants, etc) and providing services is
the last step.
So do your homework and then come back later.
bye,
andrea
1:19 p.m.
On Sat, 2004-01-24 at 11:05, Andrea Glorioso wrote:
You could read everything even before, you just had to subscribe.
There was no link. Remember?
*None* of them. There's only one relationship between the authors of a
project and the project itself. Copyright.
Speaking of Libre Software projects in general, that's not true (that
they are not organizations from the legal point of view - it depends).
read below
So what if a company(member) that has no direct involvement in a project
abuses that project(member)? How is your consortium going to protect the
project?
What are the ways in which a consortium member could abuse another
consortium meber in any way that it can't already do?
think, and read the LAD linuxaudio.org thread again.
Not unless the domain acts as home for LAD, LAU and LAA at first place.
I'm even willing to buy that domain for the purpose of providing it for
the three mailinglists.
Even though I've been thinking for some time to propose the other
Consortium's members to change domain name (just for the sake of not
losing time on stupid arguments like this) it's highly probable that I
would vote *against* selling it to you, given the way in which you are
presenting your ideas
Given the way you are responding. You were speaking to me in an
offending tone from the start.
I'd like to do that for LAD, LAU, LAA instead. Thanks.
Offending tone.
Marek
Marek Peteraj <marpet(a)naex.sk> writes:
You could even propose to the members?? No thanks.
What are you talking about? I contacted Daniel
immidiatelly after i
found out about this. Pretty much everything was private at that
time. That's a huge difference. And there's still no neutral place
which would serve for advocacy related discussions.
AGNULA will gladly offer hosting space for any such mailing list.
If we reach a consensus on how to handle this thing, I could even
propose (as a consortium member) to host the mailing list under the
lists.linuxaudio.org domain. But obviously you don't want to mesh
your purity with such an evil organization (there are even companies
as members, no more!).
In any case, if you need hosting space for your domain, mailing list,
web site, whatever, feel free to drop me a line:
<andrea.glorioso(a)agnula.org>
No thanks.
And
don't whine if I
forget to put you in Cc:.
You don't have to. Luckily I can *now* read it here:
http://lists.agnula.org/pipermail/consortium/2004-January/thread.html The problem is that projects aren't organisations
from a legal point
of view.
Not all of them. Combining them with companies doesn't make much
sense. A foundation
would offer additional protection as it would consist of developers
participating in linux audio projects which are subject to such
additional protection.
Which additional protection, *exactly*?
In any case, see points 4-7 of the policy.
think
Electing Fred as a member of that organization
since he's a natural
person, he's active in a project.
And how would this solve the problems you are talking about? How
would this avoid the problems I talked about?
(For the record, I have no problem with Fred and/or Salem Radio being
members of the Consortium).
No consortium please.
"consortium of companies and libre software
projects"
That's
1. companies
2. libre software projects.
Let me understand.. if we had said "consortium of libre software
projects and companies" it would have been ok to you? Just an example - 2 job offerings were posted on
LAD during this
week. Having a job bulletin board on linuxaudio.org would come very
handy for those searching for *linux audio* related jobs. Per
analogiam, *linux audio* users, developers etc would find *linux
audio* related information.
Again: I'm more than willing to propose the other consortium's members
to provide hosting space for such services. Are you volunteering to
maintain them? and your obvious prejudice against companies
(and, I should add, the basic fact that you accurately
avoid answering
questions you don't know how to answer).
Listen. I'm not going to repeat myself over and over again. Almost
everything has been said in the LAD linuxaudio.org thread. Basic law
background would help you to understand. I don't have the energy to
explain things when all i get is your offending tone.
We need *basic* services first, if we want to
promote linux audio.
That's providing news, and documentation, tutorials for both developers
and users.
You know, people here have been doing it for some time, without
worrying too much about domain names. If you are willing to
contribute, I have plenty of things to do inside AGNULA (documentation
writing, graphical artwork, web mastering, news collecting and
newsletter writing) that are *all* libre and could use some help. Establishing a serious organization governed
by law(ownership,
contracts, tax exemptions, grants, etc) and providing services is
the last step.
So do your homework and then come back later.
1:37 p.m.
Marek Peteraj <marpet(a)naex.sk> writes:
Of course. Linuxaudio.org has been registered for being used by the
Consortium. As such, I don't have any definitive power over that
domain, I need to ask for a voting to take place.
There was no link. Remember?
If you tried to visit the archives via:
http://lists.linuxaudio.org/mailman/listinfo/consortium-p
you should have seen all the instructions to subscribe.
Grow a thicker skin. I'm not going to use a diplomatic tone if I get
accused of wanting to "divide the LAD community" (whatever it is) and
other heinous crimes against Libre Software.
Fine. If you need hosting space (within any domain of your choosing)
AGNULA will gladly host you (well, maybe not so gladly, but since
AGNULA has precise goals as a project I'm not going to let my personal
feelings get in the way).
If we reach a
consensus on how to handle this thing, I could even
propose (as a consortium member)
You could even propose to the members?? No thanks.
As you wish.
You don't have to. Luckily I can *now* read it
here:
http://lists.agnula.org/pipermail/consortium/2004-January/thread.html
You could read everything even before, you just had to subscribe. Even though
I've been thinking for some time to propose the other
Consortium's members to change domain name (just for the sake of not
losing time on stupid arguments like this) it's highly probable that I
would vote *against* selling it to you, given the way in which you are
presenting your ideas
Given the way you are responding. You were speaking to me in an
offending tone from the start. > (and, I should add, the basic fact that you
accurately avoid answering
> questions you don't know how to answer).
Listen. I'm not going to repeat myself over and
over again. Almost
everything has been said in the LAD linuxaudio.org thread. Basic law
background would help you to understand. I don't have the energy to
explain things when all i get is your offending tone.
I happen to have a slightly-more-than-basic law background (italian
civil law) thanks to my studies. I read the "linuxadio.org" thread on
LAD. Still, I don't get your points. Since you are trying to
convince me (as a member of the consortium) that my ideas are wrong, I
suspect the burden of being repetitive and/or more convincing is on
your shoulders.
You know,
people here have been doing it for some time, without
worrying too much about domain names. If you are willing to
contribute, I have plenty of things to do inside AGNULA (documentation
writing, graphical artwork, web mastering, news collecting and
newsletter writing) that are *all* libre and could use some help.
I'd like to do that for LAD, LAU, LAA instead. Thanks. Offending tone.
Again: grow a thicker skin. Let me know if you need the above
mentioned services. In the meantime, all the best with your efforts.
bye,
andrea
2:28 p.m.
On Sat, 2004-01-24 at 11:46, Andrea Glorioso wrote:
Just to remind you.
http://eca.cx/lad/2004/01/0132.html
which was post #41 *after* i have crossposted on LAD.
So you should know that the one who has registered the domain
has got (to quote)"definitive power over that domain".
That isn't the consortium since it isn't a legal entity and can't claim
ownership.
Who registered the domain?
Marek Peteraj <marpet(a)naex.sk> writes:
Of course. Linuxaudio.org has been registered for being used by the
Consortium. As such, I don't have any definitive power over that
domain, I need to ask for a voting to take place.
See below.
If we
reach a consensus on how to handle this thing, I could even
propose (as a consortium member)
You could even propose to the members?? No thanks.
As you wish.
> > You don't have to. Luckily I can
*now* read it here:
> > http://lists.agnula.org/pipermail/consortium/2004-January/thread.html
>
> You could read everything even before, you just had to subscribe.
There was no link. Remember?
If you tried to visit the archives via:
http://lists.linuxaudio.org/mailman/listinfo/consortium-p
you should have seen all the instructions to subscribe. Listen. I'm not going to repeat myself over
and over again. Almost
everything has been said in the LAD linuxaudio.org thread. Basic law
background would help you to understand. I don't have the energy to
explain things when all i get is your offending tone.
I happen to have a slightly-more-than-basic law background (italian
civil law) thanks to my studies. I read the "linuxadio.org" thread on
LAD. Still, I don't get your points. Since you are trying to
convince me (as a member of the consortium) that my ideas are wrong, I
suspect the burden of being repetitive and/or more convincing is on
your shoulders.
Again: grow a thicker skin.
Learn how to be more polite.
Marek
26 Jan
26 Jan
5:11 p.m.
New subject: Next item...
Now that we have firmly established the neccesity of having an official
group that focuses on the professional representation of the Linux Audio
community, I'd like to discuss some more points which should be added to
the resources that are being provided for people to take home at the
trade show. Also It would also be useful to identify some targets we
want to promote to.
Obviously we are already being represented in SoS and other mags have
started the process of representation too. That's very gratifying for
the people who have been around for a while doing the hard work.
What are the main prejudices towards Libre audio software?
I can think of a few.
1. Not cool to look at
2. Too geeky
3. Difficult to use, "Complicated"
4. Unstable
5. Installation is difficult
1. We have come a long way recently with the looks of the GUIs.
Unfortunately not many of us are grafik artists. That makes it hard for
us to get da funky looks goin on. There have been a few people who
offered to work on grafiks but so far they are mostly dead air. Still we
have some great artists out there contributing. gdam, ardour, ssm,
seq24, Jamin, RTMix, vstserver, hydrogen, MusE, rosegarden, jackeq...
2. Too geeky. We need more recordings to be released.
3. Difficult and complicated. Very true. It doesn't bother me, infact I
think it is good for my DJ persona. (Apparently everyone in Korea thinks
I play abstract music ;] ) Did anyone complain when they couldn't play a
Jimi solo the first time they picked up a guitar????
4. Unstable. Not so bad these days. The team working on JACK has made
huge steps in this field. I regularly play for many hours at a time
while DJing. The only thing that stops me is unearthed mains (there are
a lot of those in Korea :/
5. Installation: Maybe (for the trade show) we need a really big sign with:
--------------
3 steps to Linux audio happiness
./configure;make;make install
--- it's that simple! ---
---------------
Improving the ALSA install would be a big plus too. I've heard of OSS
being very user friendly a few times in the past year. The problem
seems not to be installing ALSA but getting it working after install.
The install process could provide a flag to write the /etc/modules.conf
file and the .asoundrc for a start.
Maybe someone just needs to explain to me what the alsaconf utility does
so I can write it up :)
<psuedo philosophical>
This is a very good opportunity to promote and Daniel should be
commended for doing the hard yakka to set it up. Now we have the chance
to capitalise on this. If history tells the truth, Messman and the
Novell corporatists are muscling in to affect the direction. We have to
dig in even harder now to make sure we don't get washed away in the
tidal wave.
</phil>
Prevention is better than the cure - anon
--
Patrick Shirkey - Boost Hardware Ltd.
Http://www.boosthardware.com
Http://www.djcj.org/LAU/guide/ - The Linux Audio Users guide
Http://www.djcj.org/gigs/ - Gigs guide Korea
========================================
Apparently upon the beginning of the barrage, the donkey broke
discipline and panicked, toppling the cart. At that point, the rockets
disconnected from the timer, leaving them strewn around the street.
Tethered to the now toppled cart, the donkey was unable to escape before
the arrival of U.S. troops.
United Press International
Rockets on donkeys hit major Baghdad sites
By P. MITCHELL PROTHERO
Published 11/21/2003 11:13 AM
5:34 p.m.
New subject: Next item...
On Mon, Jan 26, 2004 at 11:18:37 +0900, Patrick Shirkey wrote:
--------------
3 steps to Linux audio happiness
./configure;make;make install
--- it's that simple! ---
---------------
Aye, you and I look at that with extreme happyness, but your average user
feels more confortable with a synnaptic-like deal in my experience.
I'd prefer if we push agnula/planet ccrma/<insert audio distro> rather
than selfbuilt systems. Its easier to fix people problems for one thing.
- Steve
5:34 p.m.
New subject: Next item...
regarding grafiks....
this is one area i have always wanted to contribute in... i'm no
programmer, by any means, but want to give something to the community -
i am, however, a professional graphic designer.
i've had a few gos but mostly have been limited by time of late... i
still havent forgotten this though and would very much like to help in
graphics development of audio software.
just raising my hand...
m~ / iriXx
Patrick Shirkey wrote:
Now that we have firmly established the neccesity of
having an
official group that focuses on the professional representation of the
Linux Audio community, I'd like to discuss some more points which
should be added to the resources that are being provided for people to
take home at the trade show. Also It would also be useful to identify
some targets we want to promote to.
Obviously we are already being represented in SoS and other mags have
started the process of representation too. That's very gratifying for
the people who have been around for a while doing the hard work.
What are the main prejudices towards Libre audio software?
I can think of a few.
1. Not cool to look at
2. Too geeky
3. Difficult to use, "Complicated"
4. Unstable
5. Installation is difficult
1. We have come a long way recently with the looks of the GUIs.
Unfortunately not many of us are grafik artists. That makes it hard
for us to get da funky looks goin on. There have been a few people who
offered to work on grafiks but so far they are mostly dead air. Still
we have some great artists out there contributing. gdam, ardour, ssm,
seq24, Jamin, RTMix, vstserver, hydrogen, MusE, rosegarden, jackeq...
2. Too geeky. We need more recordings to be released.
3. Difficult and complicated. Very true. It doesn't bother me, infact
I think it is good for my DJ persona. (Apparently everyone in Korea
thinks I play abstract music ;] ) Did anyone complain when they
couldn't play a Jimi solo the first time they picked up a guitar????
4. Unstable. Not so bad these days. The team working on JACK has made
huge steps in this field. I regularly play for many hours at a time
while DJing. The only thing that stops me is unearthed mains (there
are a lot of those in Korea :/
5. Installation: Maybe (for the trade show) we need a really big sign
with:
--------------
3 steps to Linux audio happiness
./configure;make;make install
--- it's that simple! ---
---------------
Improving the ALSA install would be a big plus too. I've heard of OSS
being very user friendly a few times in the past year. The problem
seems not to be installing ALSA but getting it working after install.
The install process could provide a flag to write the
/etc/modules.conf file and the .asoundrc for a start.
Maybe someone just needs to explain to me what the alsaconf utility
does so I can write it up :)
<psuedo philosophical>
This is a very good opportunity to promote and Daniel should be
commended for doing the hard yakka to set it up. Now we have the
chance to capitalise on this. If history tells the truth, Messman and
the Novell corporatists are muscling in to affect the direction. We
have to dig in even harder now to make sure we don't get washed away
in the tidal wave.
</phil>
Prevention is better than the cure - anon
--
They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve
neither liberty nor safety.
--Benjamin Franklin
|\ _,,,---,,_
ZZZzz /,`.-'`' -. ;-;;,_ HTTP 503: Too Busy
|,4- ) )-,_. ,\ ( `'-'
'---''(_/--' `-'\_) fL
.::. www.iriXx.org .::. www.copyleftmedia.org.uk .::.
6:10 p.m.
New subject: Next item...
We probably need a reworked or redesigned small logo for JAMin since we
changed the name from JAM. If you find the time ;-)
Jan
On Mon, 2004-01-26 at 08:43, iriXx wrote:
regarding grafiks....
this is one area i have always wanted to contribute in... i'm no
programmer, by any means, but want to give something to the community -
i am, however, a professional graphic designer.
i've had a few gos but mostly have been limited by time of late... i
still havent forgotten this though and would very much like to help in
graphics development of audio software.
just raising my hand...
m~ / iriXx
Patrick Shirkey wrote:
Now that we have firmly established the neccesity
of having an
official group that focuses on the professional representation of the
Linux Audio community, I'd like to discuss some more points which
should be added to the resources that are being provided for people to
take home at the trade show. Also It would also be useful to identify
some targets we want to promote to.
Obviously we are already being represented in SoS and other mags have
started the process of representation too. That's very gratifying for
the people who have been around for a while doing the hard work.
What are the main prejudices towards Libre audio software?
I can think of a few.
1. Not cool to look at
2. Too geeky
3. Difficult to use, "Complicated"
4. Unstable
5. Installation is difficult
1. We have come a long way recently with the looks of the GUIs.
Unfortunately not many of us are grafik artists. That makes it hard
for us to get da funky looks goin on. There have been a few people who
offered to work on grafiks but so far they are mostly dead air. Still
we have some great artists out there contributing. gdam, ardour, ssm,
seq24, Jamin, RTMix, vstserver, hydrogen, MusE, rosegarden, jackeq...
2. Too geeky. We need more recordings to be released.
3. Difficult and complicated. Very true. It doesn't bother me, infact
I think it is good for my DJ persona. (Apparently everyone in Korea
thinks I play abstract music ;] ) Did anyone complain when they
couldn't play a Jimi solo the first time they picked up a guitar????
4. Unstable. Not so bad these days. The team working on JACK has made
huge steps in this field. I regularly play for many hours at a time
while DJing. The only thing that stops me is unearthed mains (there
are a lot of those in Korea :/
5. Installation: Maybe (for the trade show) we need a really big sign
with:
--------------
3 steps to Linux audio happiness
./configure;make;make install
--- it's that simple! ---
---------------
Improving the ALSA install would be a big plus too. I've heard of OSS
being very user friendly a few times in the past year. The problem
seems not to be installing ALSA but getting it working after install.
The install process could provide a flag to write the
/etc/modules.conf file and the .asoundrc for a start.
Maybe someone just needs to explain to me what the alsaconf utility
does so I can write it up :)
<psuedo philosophical>
This is a very good opportunity to promote and Daniel should be
commended for doing the hard yakka to set it up. Now we have the
chance to capitalise on this. If history tells the truth, Messman and
the Novell corporatists are muscling in to affect the direction. We
have to dig in even harder now to make sure we don't get washed away
in the tidal wave.
</phil>
Prevention is better than the cure - anon
--
They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve
neither liberty nor safety.
--Benjamin Franklin
|\ _,,,---,,_
ZZZzz /,`.-'`' -. ;-;;,_ HTTP 503: Too Busy
|,4- ) )-,_. ,\ ( `'-'
'---''(_/--' `-'\_) fL
.::. www.iriXx.org .::. www.copyleftmedia.org.uk .::.
_______________________________________________
Consortium mailing list
Consortium(a)lists.linuxaudio.org
http://lists.agnula.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/consortium
6:20 p.m.
New subject: Next item...
ok... will have to see how i go... my work has 2 major websites
launching in the next 2 weeks, and i've got the lovely job of designing
one and editing the other....
m~
Jan Depner wrote:
We probably need a reworked or redesigned small logo
for JAMin since we
changed the name from JAM. If you find the time ;-)
Jan
On Mon, 2004-01-26 at 08:43, iriXx wrote:
--
They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve
neither liberty nor safety.
--Benjamin Franklin
|\ _,,,---,,_
ZZZzz /,`.-'`' -. ;-;;,_ HTTP 503: Too Busy
|,4- ) )-,_. ,\ ( `'-'
'---''(_/--' `-'\_) fL
.::. www.iriXx.org .::. www.copyleftmedia.org.uk .::.
regarding grafiks....
this is one area i have always wanted to contribute in... i'm no
programmer, by any means, but want to give something to the community -
i am, however, a professional graphic designer.
i've had a few gos but mostly have been limited by time of late... i
still havent forgotten this though and would very much like to help in
graphics development of audio software.
just raising my hand...
m~ / iriXx
Patrick Shirkey wrote:
_______________________________________________
Consortium mailing list
Consortium(a)lists.linuxaudio.org
http://lists.agnula.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/consortium
Now that we have firmly established the neccesity
of having an
official group that focuses on the professional representation of the
Linux Audio community, I'd like to discuss some more points which
should be added to the resources that are being provided for people to
take home at the trade show. Also It would also be useful to identify
some targets we want to promote to.
Obviously we are already being represented in SoS and other mags have
started the process of representation too. That's very gratifying for
the people who have been around for a while doing the hard work.
What are the main prejudices towards Libre audio software?
I can think of a few.
1. Not cool to look at
2. Too geeky
3. Difficult to use, "Complicated"
4. Unstable
5. Installation is difficult
1. We have come a long way recently with the looks of the GUIs.
Unfortunately not many of us are grafik artists. That makes it hard
for us to get da funky looks goin on. There have been a few people who
offered to work on grafiks but so far they are mostly dead air. Still
we have some great artists out there contributing. gdam, ardour, ssm,
seq24, Jamin, RTMix, vstserver, hydrogen, MusE, rosegarden, jackeq...
2. Too geeky. We need more recordings to be released.
3. Difficult and complicated. Very true. It doesn't bother me, infact
I think it is good for my DJ persona. (Apparently everyone in Korea
thinks I play abstract music ;] ) Did anyone complain when they
couldn't play a Jimi solo the first time they picked up a guitar????
4. Unstable. Not so bad these days. The team working on JACK has made
huge steps in this field. I regularly play for many hours at a time
while DJing. The only thing that stops me is unearthed mains (there
are a lot of those in Korea :/
5. Installation: Maybe (for the trade show) we need a really big sign
with:
--------------
3 steps to Linux audio happiness
./configure;make;make install
--- it's that simple! ---
---------------
Improving the ALSA install would be a big plus too. I've heard of OSS
being very user friendly a few times in the past year. The problem
seems not to be installing ALSA but getting it working after install.
The install process could provide a flag to write the
/etc/modules.conf file and the .asoundrc for a start.
Maybe someone just needs to explain to me what the alsaconf utility
does so I can write it up :)
<psuedo philosophical>
This is a very good opportunity to promote and Daniel should be
commended for doing the hard yakka to set it up. Now we have the
chance to capitalise on this. If history tells the truth, Messman and
the Novell corporatists are muscling in to affect the direction. We
have to dig in even harder now to make sure we don't get washed away
in the tidal wave.
</phil>
Prevention is better than the cure - anon
--
They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve
neither liberty nor safety.
--Benjamin Franklin
|\ _,,,---,,_
ZZZzz /,`.-'`' -. ;-;;,_ HTTP 503: Too Busy
|,4- ) )-,_. ,\ ( `'-'
'---''(_/--' `-'\_) fL
.::. www.iriXx.org .::. www.copyleftmedia.org.uk .::.
_______________________________________________
Consortium mailing list
Consortium(a)lists.linuxaudio.org
http://lists.agnula.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/consortium
7:48 p.m.
New subject: Next item...
iriXx wrote:
regarding grafiks....
this is one area i have always wanted to contribute in... i'm no
programmer, by any means, but want to give something to the community -
i am, however, a professional graphic designer.
i've had a few gos but mostly have been limited by time of late... i
still havent forgotten this though and would very much like to help in
graphics development of audio software.
just raising my hand...
One thing we need is a nice set of sliders. Comix (Hydrogen) has done a
good job but IMO the sliders are too small to be a standard. If you can
design something great for general consumption it would be muchos
appreciato.
Another problem we have is 3d stylez. If you know how to get around that
for an app like ardour/MusE/ssm... let us know.
--
Patrick Shirkey - Boost Hardware Ltd.
Http://www.boosthardware.com
Http://www.djcj.org/LAU/guide/ - The Linux Audio Users guide
Http://www.djcj.org/gigs/ - Gigs guide Korea
========================================
Apparently upon the beginning of the barrage, the donkey broke
discipline and panicked, toppling the cart. At that point, the rockets
disconnected from the timer, leaving them strewn around the street.
Tethered to the now toppled cart, the donkey was unable to escape before
the arrival of U.S. troops.
United Press International
Rockets on donkeys hit major Baghdad sites
By P. MITCHELL PROTHERO
Published 11/21/2003 11:13 AM
8:06 p.m.
New subject: Next item...
On Monday 26 January 2004 16:56, Patrick Shirkey wrote:
iriXx wrote:
> regarding grafiks....
[..]
One thing we need is a nice set of sliders. Comix
(Hydrogen) has done a
good job but IMO the sliders are too small to be a standard. If you can
design something great for general consumption it would be muchos
appreciato.
Yeah, seconded. We've been talking about these for Rosegarden recently and
would rather just use a "standard" set than go and create our own. We've
thought about borrowing the ones from Hydrogen before now but I think they're
a tad on the small side too. Perhaps he could just be persuaded to do a
bigger version of same?
R
6:48 p.m.
New subject: Next item...
Patrick Shirkey wrote:
3. Difficult and complicated. Very true. It
doesn't bother me, infact
I think it is good for my DJ persona. (Apparently everyone in Korea
thinks I play abstract music ;] ) Did anyone complain when they
couldn't play a Jimi solo the first time they picked up a guitar????
Intereseting analogy, because of course Hendrix introduced no new
technique-having-to-do-with-playing-guitar (it's all blues modes and
very few other scales). He did introduce a lot of
technique-having-to-do-with-USING-the-guitar, most of which was pretty
easily acquired by anyone with the same or approximate gear.
But WRT our beloved Linux audio software: it's really still a bit of a
problem with Linux generally. I still get a fair amount of mail from
people who are truly confused about ALSA...
5. Installation: Maybe (for the trade show) we need a
really big sign
with:
--------------
3 steps to Linux audio happiness
./configure;make;make install
--- it's that simple! ---
---------------
Well, as long as nothing fucks up, I suppose you're right. But of
course, things do fuck up, frequently and opaquely, and unless you're a
seasoned Linux audio veteran you are likely to be left out in the cold
when it comes to system analysis and fix-it time. I'm not saying any of
that is inherently difficult, only that a procedure utterly unknown to
the user might as well be written in Etruscan Linear B. All of which
argues strongly for the promotion of better turn-key systems a la
PlanetC or AGNULA.
Improving the ALSA install would be a big plus too.
I've heard of OSS
being very user friendly a few times in the past year. The problem
seems not to be installing ALSA but getting it working after install.
The install process could provide a flag to write the
/etc/modules.conf file and the .asoundrc for a start.
Maybe someone just needs to explain to me what the alsaconf utility
does so I can write it up :)
Indeed, I've witnessed the ALSA installation getting better all the
time, but it's still not as straightforward as the OSS/Linux system. I'm
not complaining though, and I agree with Patrick that most problems
people have with ALSA have to do with using it optimally (or even just
getting sound out of it). I'm still helping people who didn't know that
ALSA automutes the mixer channels at first start.
Best,
++ dp
7:43 p.m.
New subject: Next item...
Dave Phillips wrote:
Which seems to happen 95% of the time for me these days. IMBBiased.
Patrick Shirkey wrote:
You say that now, after years of listening to his work...
3. Difficult and complicated. Very true. It
doesn't bother me, infact
I think it is good for my DJ persona. (Apparently everyone in Korea
thinks I play abstract music ;] ) Did anyone complain when they
couldn't play a Jimi solo the first time they picked up a guitar????
Intereseting analogy, because of course Hendrix introduced no new
technique-having-to-do-with-playing-guitar (it's all blues modes and
very few other scales). He did introduce a lot of
technique-having-to-do-with-USING-the-guitar, most of which was pretty
easily acquired by anyone with the same or approximate gear.
But WRT our beloved Linux audio software: it's
really still a bit of a
problem with Linux generally. I still get a fair amount of mail from
people who are truly confused about ALSA...
Thats a seperate issue which we *should* address very soon.
5.
Installation: Maybe (for the trade show) we need a really big sign
with:
--------------
3 steps to Linux audio happiness
./configure;make;make install
--- it's that simple! ---
---------------
Well, as long as nothing fucks up, I suppose you're right. But of
course, things do fuck up, frequently and opaquely,
Though it is rare to find audio apps that do this nowadays [we should
fix the ones that don't]. We seemed to have learnt that it's better to
make it work from the start... (at least once we tar a package).
and unless you're a
seasoned Linux audio veteran you are likely to be left out in the cold
when it comes to system analysis and fix-it time. I'm not saying any of
that is inherently difficult, only that a procedure utterly unknown to
the user might as well be written in Etruscan Linear B. All of which
argues strongly for the promotion of better turn-key systems a la
PlanetC or AGNULA.
True... #1. What would y'all consider more accesible to an LCD audience?
--------------
3 steps to Linux audio happiness
./configure;make;make install
--- it's that simple! ---
---------------
Install simply and quickly
AGNULA Planet CCRMA
We make it easy for you!
---------------
Maybe both are valid?
--
Patrick Shirkey - Boost Hardware Ltd.
Http://www.boosthardware.com
Http://www.djcj.org/LAU/guide/ - The Linux Audio Users guide
Http://www.djcj.org/gigs/ - Gigs guide Korea
========================================
Apparently upon the beginning of the barrage, the donkey broke
discipline and panicked, toppling the cart. At that point, the rockets
disconnected from the timer, leaving them strewn around the street.
Tethered to the now toppled cart, the donkey was unable to escape before
the arrival of U.S. troops.
United Press International
Rockets on donkeys hit major Baghdad sites
By P. MITCHELL PROTHERO
Published 11/21/2003 11:13 AM
27 Jan
27 Jan
4:51 p.m.
New subject: Next item...
Patrick Shirkey <pshirkey(a)boosthardware.com> writes:
--------------
3 steps to Linux audio happiness
./configure;make;make install
--- it's that simple! ---
---------------
Install simply and quickly
AGNULA Planet CCRMA
We make it easy for you!
---------------
Maybe both are valid?
[wearing my "yes, I'm a pessimit" hat on]
Although I'm blushing at seeing how AGNULA is being seen as one of the
reference points for libre audio (besides just calling itself this
way) I must warn that, in this moment, AGNULA/DeMuDi (specifically) is
still a long way to go before being "simple and quick to install".
We want to get there and we'll get there eventually, but as I learned
from experience you better not publicize something whose qualities you
are not ready to demonstrate.
That said, we heavily need help on AGNULA (bug reports, documentation,
packaging, development) so any way to gather it is welcome.
bye,
andrea
P.S.: I might be wrong, but I suspect that some of the discussions
that are being done here on consortium would actually better made on
linux-audio-dev. I don't want to play Marek's role here, but I'd
prefer we avoid giving fuel to paranoid accusations (as well as being
less efficient than we might be).
24 Jan
24 Jan
1:32 p.m.
On Fri, 23 Jan 2004, Andrea Glorioso wrote:
[re marek's point that linuxaudio.org should be a "portal" to all major
linux audio efforts]
once linuxaudio.org has had time to work out their aims and policies
in more detail, i would like to propose that linuxaudio.org, the lad page
and possibly others (such as dave's and patrick's site) work out a
corporate design of sorts (or maybe just a logo) and form a web ring.
in that context, the offer of subdomains is very interesting.
for the time being, i think it's best not to bring the subject to LAD
again, but in the long run, once linuxaudio.org has more clearly defined
itself, i'd like to discuss the web ring idea on the list and see what can
be done.
any comments ?
It represents
the linux audio developers, the linux audio users,
linux audio applications/projects.
I hoped it to be a home for LAD, LAU and LAA, and
to offer more -
community news, documentiation and tutorials, etc.
As I already told you, I'm more than willing to propose, as soon as
the voting rules are established, that specific subdomains of
linuxaudio.org be devoted to such services.
I personally won't have the time to work on the actual services. I'm
confident that willing people will do that. Are you volunteering?
1:48 p.m.
Joern Nettingsmeier <nettings(a)folkwang-hochschule.de> writes:
once linuxaudio.org has had time to work out their aims and policies
in more detail, i would like to propose that linuxaudio.org, the lad page
and possibly others (such as dave's and patrick's site) work out a
corporate design of sorts (or maybe just a logo) and form a web ring.
That's a very good idea IMHO. Technically speaking what's needed to
have a webring?
On Fri, 23 Jan 2004, Andrea Glorioso wrote:
[re marek's point that linuxaudio.org should be a "portal" to all major
linux audio efforts]
Just for the record, Marek is not subscribed to Consortium (maybe you
already knew, I don't know).
It represents the linux audio developers, the linux
audio users,
linux audio applications/projects.
I hoped it to be a home for LAD, LAU and LAA, and
to offer more -
community news, documentiation and tutorials, etc.
As I already told you, I'm more than willing to propose, as soon as
the voting rules are established, that specific subdomains of
linuxaudio.org be devoted to such services.
I personally won't have the time to work on the actual services. I'm
confident that willing people will do that. Are you volunteering? in that context, the offer of subdomains is very
interesting.
I think it would help "closing the gap".
for the time being, i think it's best not to
bring the subject to
LAD again, but in the long run, once linuxaudio.org has more clearly
defined itself, i'd like to discuss the web ring idea on the list
and see what can be done.
I'm not sure what are the missing points on the TODO list for
"defining" the consortium. Daniel?
bye,
andrea
6:29 p.m.
On Sat, Jan 24, 2004 at 11:56:58 +0100, Andrea Glorioso wrote:
Agreed, its a good idea. Technically it needs very little, its just a php
script and a database table, I could knock one up in an hour or two.
- Steve
once
linuxaudio.org has had time to work out their aims and policies
in more detail, i would like to propose that linuxaudio.org, the lad page
and possibly others (such as dave's and patrick's site) work out a
corporate design of sorts (or maybe just a logo) and form a web ring.
That's a very good idea IMHO. Technically speaking what's needed to
have a webring? 
26 Jan
26 Jan
12:15 p.m.
Steve Harris <S.W.Harris(a)ecs.soton.ac.uk> writes:
On Sat, Jan 24, 2004 at 11:56:58 +0100, Andrea
Glorioso wrote:
Agreed, its a good idea. Technically it needs very little, its just a php
script and a database table, I could knock one up in an hour or two.
Great. Should you need hosting space (although I suspect you are
already auto-sufficient from that point of view) feel free to drop me
a line.
Shall we already start working on a logo proposal and submit it to
LAD/LAU when it's ready (together with the webring idea, of course)?
bye,
andrea
once
linuxaudio.org has had time to work out their aims and policies
in more detail, i would like to propose that linuxaudio.org, the lad page
and possibly others (such as dave's and patrick's site) work out a
corporate design of sorts (or maybe just a logo) and form a web ring.
That's a very good idea IMHO. Technically speaking what's needed to
have a webring?
3:31 p.m.
Andrea Glorioso wrote:
Steve Harris <S.W.Harris(a)ecs.soton.ac.uk>
writes:
In case you want a starting point. I made a basic webring (which I
intend to update soon with agnula and linuxaudio.org...[any others?])
that is part of the LAU guide. Currently the links don't have any
connections to a database but I already have the code for that from
Steve for the quicktoots so it wouldn't be hard to add.
--
Patrick Shirkey - Boost Hardware Ltd.
Http://www.boosthardware.com
Http://www.djcj.org/LAU/guide/ - The Linux Audio Users guide
Http://www.djcj.org/gigs/ - Gigs guide Korea
========================================
Apparently upon the beginning of the barrage, the donkey broke
discipline and panicked, toppling the cart. At that point, the rockets
disconnected from the timer, leaving them strewn around the street.
Tethered to the now toppled cart, the donkey was unable to escape before
the arrival of U.S. troops.
United Press International
Rockets on donkeys hit major Baghdad sites
By P. MITCHELL PROTHERO
Published 11/21/2003 11:13 AM
On Sat, Jan 24, 2004 at 11:56:58 +0100, Andrea
Glorioso wrote:
Agreed, its a good idea. Technically it needs very little, its just a php
script and a database table, I could knock one up in an hour or two.
Great. Should you need hosting space (although I suspect you are
already auto-sufficient from that point of view) feel free to drop me
a line.
Shall we already start working on a logo proposal and submit it to
LAD/LAU when it's ready (together with the webring idea, of course)?
once
linuxaudio.org has had time to work out their aims and policies
in more detail, i would like to propose that linuxaudio.org, the lad page
and possibly others (such as dave's and patrick's site) work out a
corporate design of sorts (or maybe just a logo) and form a web ring.
That's a very good idea IMHO. Technically speaking what's needed to
have a webring?
27 Jan
27 Jan
12:11 p.m.
Patrick Shirkey <pshirkey(a)boosthardware.com> writes:
Andrea Glorioso wrote:
As I said, I really don't have the time to put my hands on it (sadly).
Shall you need hosting space, just let me know.
bye,
andrea
Steve Harris <S.W.Harris(a)ecs.soton.ac.uk>
writes:
In case you want a starting point. I made a basic webring (which I
intend to update soon with agnula and linuxaudio.org...[any others?])
that is part of the LAU guide. Currently the links don't have any
connections to a database but I already have the code for that from
Steve for the quicktoots so it wouldn't be hard to add. On Sat, Jan 24, 2004 at 11:56:58 +0100, Andrea
Glorioso wrote:
Great. Should
you need hosting space (although I suspect you are
already auto-sufficient from that point of view) feel free to drop me
a line.
Shall we already start working on a logo proposal and submit it to
LAD/LAU when it's ready (together with the webring idea, of course)?
>once linuxaudio.org has had time to work out
their aims and policies
>in more detail, i would like to propose that linuxaudio.org, the lad page
>and possibly others (such as dave's and patrick's site) work out a
>corporate design of sorts (or maybe just a logo) and form a web ring.
That's a very good idea IMHO. Technically speaking what's needed to
have a webring?
Agreed, its a good idea. Technically it needs very little, its just a php
script and a database table, I could knock one up in an hour or two.
7952
days inactive
7956
days old
consortium@lists.linuxaudio.org
22 comments
11 participants
participants (11)
-
Andrea Glorioso -
Andrea Glorioso -
Andrea Glorioso -
Dave Phillips -
iriXx -
Jan Depner -
Joern Nettingsmeier -
Marek Peteraj -
Patrick Shirkey -
Richard Bown -
Steve Harris