On Fri, 2007-06-15 at 00:01 +0300, Hannu Savolainen wrote: Pedro Lopez-Cabanillas wrote: still in a please don't use disingenuous arguments around here. these lists are populated with double smart bastards and any number of us are capable of seeing through such misdirection. you said alsa was "not documented". clearly this is both a gratuitous overstatement and factually inaccurate. particularly so in light of your claim that by contrast, oss is completely documented (albeit followed by the contradictory claim that parts of it are under construction?!) to then defend yourself with an expectation of 100% documentation (you said "*all* the 1500+ functions") betrays the disingenuous slight of hand that is the very signature of your comments on your blog. just because something is not fully documented does not mean it is not documented. to be optimistic about your own projects and pessimistic about those you perceive as competitors is perhaps understandable, but non the less bogus for it. alsa has many faults and an honest appraisal of the benefits and drawbacks of oss vs alsa would go much further in convincing the majority of us who are immune (if not allergic) to PR than a partisan rant replete with a raft of misdirection, straw man arguments and outright invention. (i mean seriously, to infer that alsa requires a realtime kernel (blatantly not true) or that you must use callbacks, (ignoring the conventional push style read/write interface...) or that alsa requires libjack.. or spuriously associating callbacks with goto and come-from statements.. the list goes on and on. (but ho hum, it's unfair of me to trawl through the entire blog detailing every contended point so i won't) if you run around unfairly shitting on alsa then you stand a very good change of burning through any goodwill that exists as a result of you releasing oss under the GPL (among other licences). the alsa developers stepped up to the plate at a time when you did not, and i for one am very grateful that they did. a belated admission coming only after redoubling your assault above. the literary equivalent of apologising to someone *before* you slap them. it's only effective if those witnessing aren't paying attention. as i understand it, salsa is ostensibly intended for embedded use. functions can you provide any statistics pertaining to api usage in the wild or or is this just speculation on your behalf? while i'll freely admit that bloat is a common enough complaint with regard to alsa lib that i wouldn't go out of my way to contend it generally, whether or not oss provides sufficient granularity to be useful for generic and specialist (audio production) uses cases alike remains to be seen. bragging about the simplicity of your api without providing much by the way of example doesn't impress me much. quite the reverse in fact. again, you are doing yourself and oss no favours by aggressively attacking alsa. if oss is, on balance, superior then that is sufficient to convince me. i could sweep the taj mahal with that statement. no attempt to substantiate that at all? the sad thing is, it might even be true, but with purely speculative delivery like that, you are simply poisoning your own well. i second that. and hopefully with more fact and less fat. so anyway, i wrote this response in the tone of Hannu Savolainen. how does it feel? angry yet? perhaps you see my point. what ever the motivation for the switch to include GPL licencing, i appreciate your efforts. i'm neither anti oss nor pro alsa but i am a horribly conceited person who doesn't much appreciate being taken for a mug. and just because there's neither a hierarchical management structure nor meaningful financial incentives to work on linux audio (for the most part) it doesn't mean that the metrics of developer loyalty to any given system simply fall through to technical superiority. you yourself have alluded to this already, although contrary to your beliefs in a grand alsa conspiracy, in my experience, i've found that people react against any perceived dishonesty or expedient manipulation of the facts, rather than falling for it. i'm sorry if you feel i'm being unduly harsh, but then, if you can dish it out... pete.