19 Feb
2018
19 Feb
'18
10:39 a.m.
Hi everyone,
I'm Wim Taymans and I'm working on a new project called PipeWire you might
have heard about [1]. I have given some general presentations about it during
its various stages of development, some of which are online [2].
PipeWire started as a way to share arbirary multimedia, wich requires vastly
different requirements regarding format support, device and memory management
than JACK. It wasn't until I started experimenting with audio processing that
the design started to gravitate to JACK. And then some of JACKs features became
a requirement for PipeWire.
The end goal of PipeWire is to interconnect applications and devices through
a shared graph in a secure and efficient way. Some of the first applications
will be wayland screen sharing and camera sharing with access control for
sandboxed applications. It would be great if we could also use this to connect
audio apps and devices, possibly unifying the pulseaudio/JACK audio stack.
Because the general design is, what I think, now very similar to JACK, many
people have been asking me if I'm collaborating with the linux pro-audio
community on this in any way at all. I have not but I really want to change
that. In this mail I hope to start a conversation about what I'm doing and I
hope to get some help and experience from the broader professional audio
developers community on how we can make this into something useful for
everybody.
I've been looking hard at all the things that are out there, including
Wayland, JACK, LV2, CRAS, GStreamer, MFT, OMX,.. and have been trying to
combine the best ideas of these projects into PipeWire. A new plugin API was
designed for hard realtime processing of any media type. PipeWire is LGPL
licensed and depends only on a standard c library. It's currently targeting
Linux.
At the core of the PipeWire design is a graph of processing nodes with arbirary
input/output ports. Before processing begins, ports need to be configured with a
format and a set of buffers for the data. Buffer data and metadata generally
lives in memfd shared memory but can also be dmabuf or anything that can be
passed as an fd between processes. There is a lot of flexibility in doing this
setup, reusing much of the GStreamer experience there is. This all happens on
the main thread, infrequently, not very important for the actual execution of
the graph.
In the realtime thread (PipeWire currently has 1 main thread and 1 realtime data
thread), events from various sources can start push/pull operations in the
graph. For the purpose of this mail, the audio sink uses a timerfd to wake up
when the alsa buffer fill level is below a threshold. This causes the sink to
fetch a buffer from its input port queue and copy it to the alsa ringbuffer. It
then issues a pull to fetch more data from all linked peer nodes for which there
is nothing queued. These peers will then eventually push another buffer in the
sink queue to be picked up in the next pull cycle of the sink. This is somewhat
similar to the JACK async scheduling model. In the generic case, PipeWire has to
walk upstream in the graph until it finds a node that can produce something (see
below how this can be optimized).
Scheduling of nodes is, contrary to JACKs (and LADSPA and LV2) single 'process'
method, done with 2 methods: process_input and process_ouput. This is done to
support more complex plugins that need to decouple input from output and to also
support a pull model for plugins. For internal clients, we directly call the
methods, for external clients we use an eventfd and a shared ringbuffer to send
the right process command to the client.
When the external client has finished processing or need to pull, it signals
PipeWire, which then wakes up the next clients if needed. This is different from
JACK, where a client directly wakes up the peers to avoid a server context
switch. JACK can do this because the graph and all client semaphores are shared.
PipeWire can't in general for a couple of reaons: 1) you need to bring mixing of
arbitrary formats to the clients 2) sandboxed clients should not be trusted with
this information and responsability. In some cases it would probably be possible
to improve that in the future (see below).
This kind of scheduling works well for generic desktop style audio and video.
Apps can send buffers of the size of their liking. Bigger buffers means higher
latency but less frequent wakeups. The sink wakeup frequency is determined by
the smallest buffer size that needs to be mixed. There is an upper limit for the
largest amount of data that is mixed in one go to avoid having to do rewinds in
alsa and still have reasonable latency when doing volume changes or adding new
streams etc.
The idea is to make a separate part of the graph dedicated to pro-audio. This
part of the graph runs with mono 32bit float sample buffers of a fixed size and
samplerate. The nodes running in this part of the graph also need to have a
fixed input-output pattern. In this part of the graph, negotiating the format
becomes trivial. We can preallocate a fixed size buffer for each port that is
used to send/mix data between nodes. Exactly like how JACK works. In this
scenario it would be possible to bring some of the graph state to trusted
clients so that they can wake up their peers directly.
As it turns out, the generic scheduling mechanism simplifies to the JACK way of
scheduling and the option to do some optimisations (can directly start push from
the sources, bundle process_input/output calls, mixing on ports is simplified by
equal buffer sizes, ...)
There is a lot more stuff that I can talk about and a lot of things that need
to be fleshed out like latency calculations, an equivalent of JACK transport,
session management, ... But this mail is already getting long :)
I would very much like to hear your ideas, comments, flames, thoughts on this
idea. I think I'm at a stage where I can present this to a bigger audience and
have enough experience with the matter to have meaningful discussions.
PipeWire is currently still in heavy development, many things can and do
still change. I'm currently writing a replacement libjack.so[3] that runs jack
clients directly on PipeWire (mixing and complicated scheduling doesn't
work yet).
Hope to hear your comments,
Wim Taymans
[1] pipewire.org
[2] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Xgx7cRoS0M
[3] https://github.com/PipeWire/pipewire-jack
19 Feb
19 Feb
10:16 p.m.
On Mon, 19 Feb 2018, Wim Taymans wrote:
PipeWire started as a way to share arbirary
multimedia, wich requires vastly
different requirements regarding format support, device and memory management
than JACK. It wasn't until I started experimenting with audio processing that
the design started to gravitate to JACK. And then some of JACKs features became
a requirement for PipeWire.
The end goal of PipeWire is to interconnect applications and devices through
a shared graph in a secure and efficient way. Some of the first applications
will be wayland screen sharing and camera sharing with access control for
sandboxed applications. It would be great if we could also use this to connect
audio apps and devices, possibly unifying the pulseaudio/JACK audio stack.
By unifying I think you mean both things in one server rather than both
making jack work like pulse or pulse work like jack. I have been using
jackdbus as my audio server/backend with pulse as a desktop compatability
layer for 3 to 4 years now with reasonable success. Jackdbus takes care of
all physical audio devices (I have no bluetooth audio devices) with my
multitrack audio device (an older ice1712 based delta66) as jack's master
and any other devices as clients via zita-ajbridge (with SRC). In general,
I don't use devices cannected through SRC for recording but many beginner
users have bought "pro USB mics" to start recording and so SRC is "a
thing".
I run pulse without the alsa, udev and jackdbus-detect modules but do load
jacksink/source via script as needed. I use my own script because it
allows me to name my pulse ports so that pulse sees a device name rather
than just jackd. I do not know the internals of pulseaudio, but have found
that pulse will sync to any real device it happens to have access to even
though no stream is using that device. This ends meaning that data is
transfered to jackd on that devices time schedule rather than jack's with
the result of xruns in jackd and even crashes when jackd is put in freerun
mode. By running pulse with no alsa modules and no udev module (which auto
loads alsa modules when a new device is detected), both of these problems
are solved.
The one problem I have left is that pulse then has to follow jackd's
latency model. This is probably because jackd-sink/source are in the
sample category rather than well thought out and finished. As jack's
latency goes down (it can be changed while jackd is running), jack's cpu
load goes up as expected, but it stays in reasonable limits. However,
pulse is forced to follow along and pulse uses more than double the cpu as
jack does. Along with this some desktop applications start to fail
noticably. Skype is a good example of this because it does actually see
some use in the profesional audio world in broadcast application where
skype is sometimes used for live remote contribution. (think phone in talk
show or even news) In such a case, the local studio may be running totally
in jack using something like idjc with skype linked in using pulse
bridging. (thankfully asterisk can deal with jack directly and already
expects low latency operation so normal phone calls just work) Low latency
jack operation is important in an announcer application as monitoring as
often done with headphones where a delay of one's own voice may be
annoying. So jack needs to run at 5ms or so while skype seems to think
30ms is quite normal (and uses echo cancelation so the talker can't hear
their own delayed voice).
What this points out is that there are two different requirements that
sometimes need to be met at the same time. Pipewire has the advantage of
knowing about both uses and being able to deal with them somewhat more
gracefully if it chooses to. Desktop needs it's own buffering it seems.
Certainly most people who use jack much would have liked to see jack
become standard with a pulse like wrapper for desktop. The development
energy just wasn't there.
Because the general design is, what I think, now very
similar to JACK, many
people have been asking me if I'm collaborating with the linux pro-audio
community on this in any way at all. I have not but I really want to change
It does not really matter if pipewire is similar to jack in operation.
Jack allows things that some applications require and there are users who
do not have pulse on their system at all. so even if pipewire did not
allow jack clients to directly connect, jack is still around, still in use
and will be for some time. (do not be disapointed when some people choose
to remove pipewire in their new installs and replace it with jackd1, they
may be vocal, but a small number of people)
that. In this mail I hope to start a conversation
about what I'm doing and I
hope to get some help and experience from the broader professional audio
developers community on how we can make this into something useful for
everybody.
While I have done some development using the jack API, you will have
noticed that most of my points above are from a user POV.
sink queue to be picked up in the next pull cycle of
the sink. This is somewhat
similar to the JACK async scheduling model. In the generic case, PipeWire has to
There will be some people who will say jack async is not good enough, but
they will likely also be those commented on above who will use jackd1 (and
only LADSPA plugins). This is not in any way a put down of these people, I
think there are uses where a jack only system will remain the best
approach. Just as there are still many headless servers with no X or
wayland.
The idea is to make a separate part of the graph
dedicated to pro-audio. This
Thank you, that is absolutely a requirement if you wish to avoid the
situation we have now of so many people either hacking pulse to work with
jackd, removing pulse, complaining desktop audio is blocked when an
application uses alsa directly, etc. What it comes down to, is that
profesional audio users will continue to use jackd unless pipewire
properly takes care of their use case. Because of where pulse has gone, do
expect a "wait and see" from the pro community. There are still a number
of people who very vocally tell new proaudio users that the first thing
they should do is to remove pulse when in most systems this is not needed.
These poor new users are then left with a broken system because they are
not able to do all the workarounds needed to get desktop audio to work
again. Having people who use proaudio working with you from the start
should help keep this from happening. There will still be people against
it, but also people for, who are also vocal.
A request:
it is hard to know exactly how pipewire will work, but one of the requests
I hear quite often is being able to deal with pulse clients separately.
That is being able to take the output of one pulse client and feed it to a
second one. This could be expanded to the jack world. Right now, jack sees
pulse as one input and one output by default. This is both good and bad.
It is good because, most pulse clients only open a pulse port when they
need it. This makes routing connections difficult to make manually. The
pulse-jack bridge provides a constant connection a jack client can connect
to. This is bad because it is only one connection that combines all pulse
audio including desktop alerts etc. Some way of allowing an application on
the desktop to request a jack client as if it was an audio device would be
a wonderful addition. Also, a way of choosing which port(s) in the jack
end of things should be default would be nice. Right now, when pulse auto
connects to jack it select system_1 and system_2 for stereo out. On a
multi-track card system_9 and system_10 (or any other pair) may be the
main audio out for studio monitoring. Ports 9 and 10 just so happen to
s/pdif on my audio interface.
I have also been overly long, but a replacement audio server affects a lot
of things. It is worth while taking the time to get it right.
--
Len Ovens
www.ovenwerks.net
20 Feb
20 Feb
12:20 a.m.
Greetings, Wim. Amazing project you have there. I hope you succeed. Len
has covered lots of excellent thoughts. Here are a few more, clearly
intersecting.
First of all, it's a great idea. I'd love to see one layer which could do
all of JACK and pulse. But the pitfalls are many :-) It's worthwhile to
remember that the ALSA people tried a lot of it, the code bits and
configuration settings are still there waiting to be used, it's just that
Pulse and JACK are doing it and more so much more reliably.
Second, the newer JACK+Pulse setup with Cadence controlling it is amazing,
a joy and a simplicity. Kudos extremus (sorry, I am linguistically
challenged). It does cost a bit in JACK DSP (5% on the big BNR hard server
when I tried it), but it works very reliably.
And third, I could certainly imagine one layer with three different kinds
of ports: MIDI (using the JACK MIDI API), Pro Audio (using the JACK audio
API), and Desktop Audio (using the Pulse API). All desktop audio ports
behave like Pulse, and are controlled using the Pulse control APIs, and by
default their data is mixed into a default Desktop Audio hardware output.
At the control system level (using JACK for all), Pulse ports look like
JACK ports and can be rerouted, but the underlying layer treats them
differently, decouples them from the rigid round-robin of JACK. This does
not make for a simple system, because there has to be both kinds of ports
for the hardware audio, and I'm sure there are a lot more complications
which others will think of, and which will emerge as soon as users start
trying it!
J.E.B.
On Mon, Feb 19, 2018 at 2:39 AM, Wim Taymans <wim.taymans(a)gmail.com> wrote:
Hi everyone,
I'm Wim Taymans and I'm working on a new project called PipeWire you might
have heard about [1]. I have given some general presentations about it
during
its various stages of development, some of which are online [2].
PipeWire started as a way to share arbirary multimedia, wich requires
vastly
different requirements regarding format support, device and memory
management
than JACK. It wasn't until I started experimenting with audio processing
that
the design started to gravitate to JACK. And then some of JACKs features
became
a requirement for PipeWire.
The end goal of PipeWire is to interconnect applications and devices
through
a shared graph in a secure and efficient way. Some of the first
applications
will be wayland screen sharing and camera sharing with access control for
sandboxed applications. It would be great if we could also use this to
connect
audio apps and devices, possibly unifying the pulseaudio/JACK audio stack.
Because the general design is, what I think, now very similar to JACK, many
people have been asking me if I'm collaborating with the linux pro-audio
community on this in any way at all. I have not but I really want to change
that. In this mail I hope to start a conversation about what I'm doing and
I
hope to get some help and experience from the broader professional audio
developers community on how we can make this into something useful for
everybody.
I've been looking hard at all the things that are out there, including
Wayland, JACK, LV2, CRAS, GStreamer, MFT, OMX,.. and have been trying to
combine the best ideas of these projects into PipeWire. A new plugin API
was
designed for hard realtime processing of any media type. PipeWire is LGPL
licensed and depends only on a standard c library. It's currently targeting
Linux.
At the core of the PipeWire design is a graph of processing nodes with
arbirary
input/output ports. Before processing begins, ports need to be configured
with a
format and a set of buffers for the data. Buffer data and metadata
generally
lives in memfd shared memory but can also be dmabuf or anything that can be
passed as an fd between processes. There is a lot of flexibility in doing
this
setup, reusing much of the GStreamer experience there is. This all happens
on
the main thread, infrequently, not very important for the actual execution
of
the graph.
In the realtime thread (PipeWire currently has 1 main thread and 1
realtime data
thread), events from various sources can start push/pull operations in the
graph. For the purpose of this mail, the audio sink uses a timerfd to wake
up
when the alsa buffer fill level is below a threshold. This causes the sink
to
fetch a buffer from its input port queue and copy it to the alsa
ringbuffer. It
then issues a pull to fetch more data from all linked peer nodes for which
there
is nothing queued. These peers will then eventually push another buffer in
the
sink queue to be picked up in the next pull cycle of the sink. This is
somewhat
similar to the JACK async scheduling model. In the generic case, PipeWire
has to
walk upstream in the graph until it finds a node that can produce
something (see
below how this can be optimized).
Scheduling of nodes is, contrary to JACKs (and LADSPA and LV2) single
'process'
method, done with 2 methods: process_input and process_ouput. This is done
to
support more complex plugins that need to decouple input from output and
to also
support a pull model for plugins. For internal clients, we directly call
the
methods, for external clients we use an eventfd and a shared ringbuffer to
send
the right process command to the client.
When the external client has finished processing or need to pull, it
signals
PipeWire, which then wakes up the next clients if needed. This is
different from
JACK, where a client directly wakes up the peers to avoid a server context
switch. JACK can do this because the graph and all client semaphores are
shared.
PipeWire can't in general for a couple of reaons: 1) you need to bring
mixing of
arbitrary formats to the clients 2) sandboxed clients should not be
trusted with
this information and responsability. In some cases it would probably be
possible
to improve that in the future (see below).
This kind of scheduling works well for generic desktop style audio and
video.
Apps can send buffers of the size of their liking. Bigger buffers means
higher
latency but less frequent wakeups. The sink wakeup frequency is determined
by
the smallest buffer size that needs to be mixed. There is an upper limit
for the
largest amount of data that is mixed in one go to avoid having to do
rewinds in
alsa and still have reasonable latency when doing volume changes or adding
new
streams etc.
The idea is to make a separate part of the graph dedicated to pro-audio.
This
part of the graph runs with mono 32bit float sample buffers of a fixed
size and
samplerate. The nodes running in this part of the graph also need to have a
fixed input-output pattern. In this part of the graph, negotiating the
format
becomes trivial. We can preallocate a fixed size buffer for each port that
is
used to send/mix data between nodes. Exactly like how JACK works. In this
scenario it would be possible to bring some of the graph state to trusted
clients so that they can wake up their peers directly.
As it turns out, the generic scheduling mechanism simplifies to the JACK
way of
scheduling and the option to do some optimisations (can directly start
push from
the sources, bundle process_input/output calls, mixing on ports is
simplified by
equal buffer sizes, ...)
There is a lot more stuff that I can talk about and a lot of things that
need
to be fleshed out like latency calculations, an equivalent of JACK
transport,
session management, ... But this mail is already getting long :)
I would very much like to hear your ideas, comments, flames, thoughts on
this
idea. I think I'm at a stage where I can present this to a bigger audience
and
have enough experience with the matter to have meaningful discussions.
PipeWire is currently still in heavy development, many things can and do
still change. I'm currently writing a replacement libjack.so[3] that runs
jack
clients directly on PipeWire (mixing and complicated scheduling doesn't
work yet).
Hope to hear your comments,
Wim Taymans
[1] pipewire.org
[2] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Xgx7cRoS0M
[3] https://github.com/PipeWire/pipewire-jack
_______________________________________________
Linux-audio-dev mailing list
Linux-audio-dev(a)lists.linuxaudio.org
https://lists.linuxaudio.org/listinfo/linux-audio-dev
--
*Jonathan E. Brickman jeb(a)ponderworthy.com
<http://login.jsp/?at=02e47df3-a9af-4cd9-b951-1a06d255b48f&mailto=jeb@ponderworthy.com>
(785)233-9977*
*Hear us at http://ponderworthy.com <http://ponderworthy.com> -- CDs and
MP3s now available! <http://ponderworthy.com/ad-astra/ad-astra.html>*
*Music of compassion; fire, and life!!!*
On Mon, Feb 19, 2018 at 2:39 AM, Wim Taymans <wim.taymans(a)gmail.com> wrote:
Hi everyone,
I'm Wim Taymans and I'm working on a new project called PipeWire you might
have heard about [1]. I have given some general presentations about it
during
its various stages of development, some of which are online [2].
PipeWire started as a way to share arbirary multimedia, wich requires
vastly
different requirements regarding format support, device and memory
management
than JACK. It wasn't until I started experimenting with audio processing
that
the design started to gravitate to JACK. And then some of JACKs features
became
a requirement for PipeWire.
The end goal of PipeWire is to interconnect applications and devices
through
a shared graph in a secure and efficient way. Some of the first
applications
will be wayland screen sharing and camera sharing with access control for
sandboxed applications. It would be great if we could also use this to
connect
audio apps and devices, possibly unifying the pulseaudio/JACK audio stack.
Because the general design is, what I think, now very similar to JACK, many
people have been asking me if I'm collaborating with the linux pro-audio
community on this in any way at all. I have not but I really want to change
that. In this mail I hope to start a conversation about what I'm doing and
I
hope to get some help and experience from the broader professional audio
developers community on how we can make this into something useful for
everybody.
I've been looking hard at all the things that are out there, including
Wayland, JACK, LV2, CRAS, GStreamer, MFT, OMX,.. and have been trying to
combine the best ideas of these projects into PipeWire. A new plugin API
was
designed for hard realtime processing of any media type. PipeWire is LGPL
licensed and depends only on a standard c library. It's currently targeting
Linux.
At the core of the PipeWire design is a graph of processing nodes with
arbirary
input/output ports. Before processing begins, ports need to be configured
with a
format and a set of buffers for the data. Buffer data and metadata
generally
lives in memfd shared memory but can also be dmabuf or anything that can be
passed as an fd between processes. There is a lot of flexibility in doing
this
setup, reusing much of the GStreamer experience there is. This all happens
on
the main thread, infrequently, not very important for the actual execution
of
the graph.
In the realtime thread (PipeWire currently has 1 main thread and 1
realtime data
thread), events from various sources can start push/pull operations in the
graph. For the purpose of this mail, the audio sink uses a timerfd to wake
up
when the alsa buffer fill level is below a threshold. This causes the sink
to
fetch a buffer from its input port queue and copy it to the alsa
ringbuffer. It
then issues a pull to fetch more data from all linked peer nodes for which
there
is nothing queued. These peers will then eventually push another buffer in
the
sink queue to be picked up in the next pull cycle of the sink. This is
somewhat
similar to the JACK async scheduling model. In the generic case, PipeWire
has to
walk upstream in the graph until it finds a node that can produce
something (see
below how this can be optimized).
Scheduling of nodes is, contrary to JACKs (and LADSPA and LV2) single
'process'
method, done with 2 methods: process_input and process_ouput. This is done
to
support more complex plugins that need to decouple input from output and
to also
support a pull model for plugins. For internal clients, we directly call
the
methods, for external clients we use an eventfd and a shared ringbuffer to
send
the right process command to the client.
When the external client has finished processing or need to pull, it
signals
PipeWire, which then wakes up the next clients if needed. This is
different from
JACK, where a client directly wakes up the peers to avoid a server context
switch. JACK can do this because the graph and all client semaphores are
shared.
PipeWire can't in general for a couple of reaons: 1) you need to bring
mixing of
arbitrary formats to the clients 2) sandboxed clients should not be
trusted with
this information and responsability. In some cases it would probably be
possible
to improve that in the future (see below).
This kind of scheduling works well for generic desktop style audio and
video.
Apps can send buffers of the size of their liking. Bigger buffers means
higher
latency but less frequent wakeups. The sink wakeup frequency is determined
by
the smallest buffer size that needs to be mixed. There is an upper limit
for the
largest amount of data that is mixed in one go to avoid having to do
rewinds in
alsa and still have reasonable latency when doing volume changes or adding
new
streams etc.
The idea is to make a separate part of the graph dedicated to pro-audio.
This
part of the graph runs with mono 32bit float sample buffers of a fixed
size and
samplerate. The nodes running in this part of the graph also need to have a
fixed input-output pattern. In this part of the graph, negotiating the
format
becomes trivial. We can preallocate a fixed size buffer for each port that
is
used to send/mix data between nodes. Exactly like how JACK works. In this
scenario it would be possible to bring some of the graph state to trusted
clients so that they can wake up their peers directly.
As it turns out, the generic scheduling mechanism simplifies to the JACK
way of
scheduling and the option to do some optimisations (can directly start
push from
the sources, bundle process_input/output calls, mixing on ports is
simplified by
equal buffer sizes, ...)
There is a lot more stuff that I can talk about and a lot of things that
need
to be fleshed out like latency calculations, an equivalent of JACK
transport,
session management, ... But this mail is already getting long :)
I would very much like to hear your ideas, comments, flames, thoughts on
this
idea. I think I'm at a stage where I can present this to a bigger audience
and
have enough experience with the matter to have meaningful discussions.
PipeWire is currently still in heavy development, many things can and do
still change. I'm currently writing a replacement libjack.so[3] that runs
jack
clients directly on PipeWire (mixing and complicated scheduling doesn't
work yet).
Hope to hear your comments,
Wim Taymans
[1] pipewire.org
[2] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Xgx7cRoS0M
[3] https://github.com/PipeWire/pipewire-jack
_______________________________________________
Linux-audio-dev mailing list
Linux-audio-dev(a)lists.linuxaudio.org
https://lists.linuxaudio.org/listinfo/linux-audio-dev
--
*Jonathan E. Brickman jeb(a)ponderworthy.com
<http://login.jsp/?at=02e47df3-a9af-4cd9-b951-1a06d255b48f&mailto=jeb@ponderworthy.com>
(785)233-9977*
*Hear us at http://ponderworthy.com <http://ponderworthy.com> -- CDs and
MP3s now available! <http://ponderworthy.com/ad-astra/ad-astra.html>*
*Music of compassion; fire, and life!!!*
20 Aug
20 Aug
3:41 a.m.
On 02/19/2018 09:39 AM, Wim Taymans wrote:
[...]
I would very much like to hear your ideas, comments,
flames, thoughts on this
idea. I think I'm at a stage where I can present this to a bigger audience and
have enough experience with the matter to have meaningful discussions.
Hi Wim,
I think the general lack of enthusiasm about pipewire here is because it
does not solve any issues for linux-audio and at best does not
introduces new ones.
In the past years the most prominent question that I have received is
* How can I use all of my USB Mics with Ardour on Linux?
* How do I uniquely identify my many MIDI devices?
* Why does my audio device not have proper port-names?
* Why can't I re-connect my device and resume work?
These questions are mostly from Mac or Windows users moving to Linux ...
and many of them moving back to MacOS.
While it is not impossible to combine multiple devices, it is not a
straightforward to set this up. Manging devices uniquely and handling
temporarily missing devices is not possible on GNU/Linux AFAIK.
If you try to come up with a new system (think pipewire), please copy as
many concepts as possible from Mac's CoreAudio.
Both pulseaudio and jack had the correct idea to present audio as a
service to applications. The server is concerned with device(s) and
device settings. However, both fail to abstract multiple devices, map
their port uniquely and provide multiple apps to concurrently use those
devices for different purposes.
The main issue with pulse is that it is a poll API. Also pulseaudio's
per device, per port-latency is incorrect (if set at all). JACK on the
other hand is too limited: single device, fixed buffersize. jackd also
periodically wakes ups the CPU and uses power (even if no client is
connected).
Browsing around in the pipewire source I see several potential design
issues.
In particular data format conversions: The nice part about JACK is that
uses float as only native format. Also port-memory is shared between
application with zero-copy.
In pipewire a port can be any data-type including vorbis and worse MIDI
is a bolted-on sub-type on an audio port.
JACK-MIDI has in the past been criticized most because MIDI was a
dedicated type instead of JACK providing generic event-ports.
Another conceptual issue that I see with pipewire is that it pushes sync
downstream (like gstreamer does), instead of sources being pulled
upstream. This in particular will make it hard to compensate for
latencies and align outputs.
Implementation wise there are plenty of other issues remaining to be
discussed, e.g. context-switches, resampling, process-graph,.. but those
are not important at this point in time.
Cheers!
robin
1:34 p.m.
On Mon, 20 Aug 2018 at 01:41, Robin Gareus <robin(a)gareus.org> wrote:
On 02/19/2018 09:39 AM, Wim Taymans wrote:
[...]
Hi Robin,
Thanks for taking time to reply.
I would very much like to hear your ideas,
comments, flames, thoughts on this
idea. I think I'm at a stage where I can present this to a bigger audience and
have enough experience with the matter to have meaningful discussions.
Hi Wim,
I think the general lack of enthusiasm about pipewire here is because it
does not solve any issues for linux-audio and at best does not
introduces new ones.
In the past years the most prominent question that I have received is
* How can I use all of my USB Mics with Ardour on Linux?
* How do I uniquely identify my many MIDI devices?
* Why does my audio device not have proper port-names?
* Why can't I re-connect my device and resume work?
These questions are mostly from Mac or Windows users moving to Linux ...
and many of them moving back to MacOS.
If you try to come up with a new system (think pipewire), please copy as
many concepts as possible from Mac's CoreAudio.
I heard this before. Device management on linux is still pretty bad. I have not
seriously looked at how to solve any of this yet..
While it is not impossible to combine multiple devices, it is not a
straightforward to set this up. Manging devices uniquely and handling
temporarily missing devices is not possible on GNU/Linux AFAIK.
One of the ideas with PipeWire is to move much of the logic to set up devices
and filters to another process. We would like to have the desktops come up
with policies for what to connect when and where and implement those.
This would also make it possible to do more configuration in the desktop control
panels, like rank devices (to select a master device), setup filters
for surround sound,
bass boost, echo cancellation (the things you can configure in Windows
and MacOs).
I know there a problems with uniquely identifying devices in Linux that may not
make this 100% perfect but we should be able to get to the same state as MacOs
or Windows.
The logic for combining devices exists and works well (zita-a2j/j2a) I would
like to have built-in support for this in PipeWire as soon as 2
devices interact.
MacOS has a panel for combining devices, we need something like that too.
Both pulseaudio and jack had the correct idea to present audio as a
service to applications. The server is concerned with device(s) and
device settings. However, both fail to abstract multiple devices, map
their port uniquely and provide multiple apps to concurrently use those
devices for different purposes.
Are you talking about JACK? PulseAudio pretty much has this right, no?
The main issue with pulse is that it is a poll API. Also pulseaudio's
per device, per port-latency is incorrect (if set at all).
What wrong with a poll API? To me PulseAudio has more of an event based
API.. Not sure what you mean with the latency being reported
incorrectly, latency
is dynamic and you can query it, it pretty much gives you access to the read and
write pointers of the device..
JACK on the
other hand is too limited: single device, fixed buffersize. jackd also
periodically wakes ups the CPU and uses power (even if no client is
connected).
These are the main points for objecting to JACK as a generic desktop
replacement for audio and PulseAudio takes the complete opposite approach.
To me, the ideal solution would be to keep the JACK design and remove the
above mentioned limitations.
Browsing around in the pipewire source I see several potential design
issues.
In particular data format conversions: The nice part about JACK is that
uses float as only native format. Also port-memory is shared between
application with zero-copy.
I 100% agree, arbitrary format conversions are not practical. In PipeWire, there
are 2 scenarios:
1) exclusive access to a device. You can negotiate any format and buffer layout
directly with the device. Very handy for compressed formats, or to get the
maximum performance (games). Of course only one app can use the device
but this can be allowed in certain cases.
2) non-exclusive access. A dsp module (exclusively) connects to the device that
converts to and from the canonical format (float32 mono) and the device format.
Clients then either connect with the canonical format (jack clients) or can use
the stream API (like CoreAudio's AudioQueue) to play or record data with
conversions being handled automatically. So only conversions at the entry and
exit points of the graph, everything in between is float32.
Port memory in PipeWire is also shared between applications and is pretty much
a requirement to do anything related to video. Where JACK has 1 buffer per port
allocated in the shared memory, PipeWire can have multiple buffers per (output)
port that are all shared between the connected peer ports. The reason for
multiple buffers per port is make it possible to implement *more* zero-copy
scenarios (delays, keeping reference frames for video encoding, ..)
In pipewire a port can be any data-type including vorbis and worse MIDI
is a bolted-on sub-type on an audio port.
Well, MIDI exists as a format and this is how the format is classified currently
in the format description. I guess the concern is how this midi data
will be used
and what importance it is given in the system as a canonical data format.
JACK-MIDI has in the past been criticized most because MIDI was a
dedicated type instead of JACK providing generic event-ports.
Currently there are different ways of controlling properties and behaviour:
- control ports: LADSPA (and other plugins) have control ports, one float
to configure a behaviour of the algorithms. This needs a (static) port for
each property to control, no direct link between control ports and data
ports, no timing information, everything needs to be a float,...
- midi ports: CC messages to control behaviour. At least you only need one
port for controlling multiple things but you need special framing to
add timing
info (like JACK) limited to 127 values (or 14 bits by using the +32 hack), no
easy way to map the number to a function,...
- event ports: custom format to describe events to execute. Mostly fixes the
MIDI problems but requires a custom format.
I think you are saying that instead of making midi ports a core data type, you
would define a custom event stream and ports to control things. At the
plugin level
this certainly makes sense. Would you not have MIDI ports? Would you convert
a midi stream to an event stream? You would still need to map events from the
midi device to the plugins.
You defined an event stream for LV2 but the use of urid requires a shared type
database between clients. How do you see this work?
Another conceptual issue that I see with pipewire is that it pushes sync
downstream (like gstreamer does), instead of sources being pulled
upstream. This in particular will make it hard to compensate for
latencies and align outputs.
This used to be the case a long time ago but not anymore. The graph wakes
up because there is data needed in the sink and data available in the source,
Each node in the graph is activated in turn based on when there dependencies
are finished processing. All nodes know exactly when the graph was woken up,
what sample it needs and how much data was still in the device.
Implementation wise there are plenty of other issues remaining to be
discussed, e.g. context-switches, resampling, process-graph,.. but those
are not important at this point in time.
context-switches is a big unresolved one. I currently still go back to
the server
instead of directly waking up the downstream peers when ready. It's
(theorerically)
a matter of passing the shared memory with counters and eventfd to the client..
I know the code is not the best quality yet.. Pretty much the result
of a lot of experimentation,
I hope to improve that as things fall into place.
Wim
Cheers!
robin
2074
days inactive
2256
days old
linux-audio-dev@lists.linuxaudio.org
4 comments
4 participants
participants (4)
-
Jonathan Brickman -
Len Ovens -
Robin Gareus -
Wim Taymans