3 Mar
2011
3 Mar
'11
8:49 p.m.
Hello Kim,
Yes I know that article, which is very biased I think, but I was
referring to your article on CDM in which you state that for music
production on Linux one only needs ALSA (or FFADO for FireWire) and JACK.
I see -
this is correct and true - until one encounters other legacy
layers which might present problems -- I have a vague memory of needing
to add a Jack<-->ALSA midi bridge for Yoshimi synth as well as some sort
of OSS ALSA mod for some other app to work - sorry but details are fuzzy -
and also true is that one can use a distro that makes all this invisible
to the user and streamlines the work needed to set up a workflow and get
things customized but finding these other (sometimes arcane) distros is
not all that easy -- the low hanging fruit is Ubuntu Studio which is
rife with issues and no easier to use really than installing Ubuntu and
setting up your own workflow with apps and utilities - which is what I
have done because I didn't want to switch to another distro i.e. staying
with Ubuntu was easier and didn't interrupt my busy work schedule etc etc
> >>
As for tweaking conf
> >> files, at the moment there are very few files you might have to tweak,
> >> /etc/security/limits.d/audio.conf (or /etc/security/limits.conf) for the
> >> necessary permissions, maybe /etc/systcl.conf for some performance gain
> >> and /etc/fstab to add noatime to the necessary mounts.
>
> yeah thanks, been there - done that -- sorry but that statement right
> there is why most people working in music won't come anywhere near Linux
> for production
>
Sorry Kim, I didn't want to sound patronizing:( There are people
working on making it easier to set this up, I've seen some mock-ups for
Ubuntu Studio and Filipe Coelho from KX Studio is working on something
similar too.
true there are people working on making it easier - for years Linux
audio has made slow gains in being more robust, stable and easy to set
up a workflow rather than learning bash scripting - but there is still a
mess of layers and conflicting services that make for a complex and
confusing environment for most n00bs. Again, I refer you to the article
I wrote for CDM where I enumerate the various ways in which this happens.
> >>
Imho I think you can add conservatism, sheer ignorance or simple denial
> >> that stuff can be done with Linux;)
> I'd say that 'simple denial' exists on both sides of the issue;)
>
You mean that I for example don't know about the needs and desires of
potential Linux audio users? Best,
Jeremy
3 Mar
3 Mar
9:04 p.m.
New subject: Laid to rest is Pro Tools LE"...
Kim Cascone wrote:
Not true of Yoshimi. Yoshimi does both JACK and ALSA, for either MIDI or
audio.
Zyn is less cooperative.
Hello Kim,
Yes I know that article, which is very biased I think, but I was
referring to your article on CDM in which you state that for music
production on Linux one only needs ALSA (or FFADO for FireWire) and JACK.
I see -
this is correct and true - until one encounters other legacy
layers which might present problems -- I have a vague memory of needing
to add a Jack<-->ALSA midi bridge for Yoshimi synth as well as some sort
of OSS ALSA mod for some other app to work - sorry but details are fuzzy - Bedroom software developers have never had to learn to
eat their own dogfood.
Actually, that is why many of the apps are the way they are. Their
developers made them that way because they do use them, often daily.
(Many open source apps came about because some programmer had an itch,
and scratched it.) It works fine for them, so why should they change it
to fit some "amateur's idea" of how the program should work?
--
David
gnome(a)hawaii.rr.com
authenticity, honesty, community
4 Mar
4 Mar
4:23 p.m.
New subject: Laid to rest is Pro Tools LE"...
On 3/3/11, david wrote:
Ah, one of my favourite topics :)
The thing is that you don't break it down to a programmer that his app
sucks. You tell him how to make his app even better than it now is, in
a way that would keep his workflow more or less along the same lines
while improbing every other bit. And with time you can even convince
him/her to improve workflow. I've been doing that for years, and guess
what -- it works.
Alexandre Prokoudine
http://libregraphicsworld.org
Bedroom
software developers have never had to learn to
eat their own dogfood.
Actually, that is why many of the apps are the way they are. Their
developers made them that way because they do use them, often daily.
(Many open source apps came about because some programmer had an itch,
and scratched it.) It works fine for them, so why should they change it
to fit some "amateur's idea" of how the program should work? 
4:42 p.m.
New subject: Laid to rest is Pro Tools LE"...
On Friday 04 March 2011 10:23:00 Alexandre Prokoudine wrote:
On 3/3/11, david wrote:
Ah, one of my favourite topics :)
The thing is that you don't break it down to a programmer that his app
sucks. You tell him how to make his app even better than it now is, in
a way that would keep his workflow more or less along the same lines
while improbing every other bit. And with time you can even convince
him/her to improve workflow. I've been doing that for years, and guess
what -- it works.
+1
Well put.
Bedroom
software developers have never had to learn to
eat their own dogfood.
Actually, that is why many of the apps are the way they are. Their
developers made them that way because they do use them, often daily.
(Many open source apps came about because some programmer had an itch,
and scratched it.) It works fine for them, so why should they change it
to fit some "amateur's idea" of how the program should work?
Alexandre Prokoudine
http://libregraphicsworld.org
all the best,
drew
8:26 p.m.
New subject: Laid to rest is Pro Tools LE"...
Alexandre Prokoudine wrote:
On 3/3/11, david wrote:
Ah, one of my favourite topics :)
The thing is that you don't break it down to a programmer that his app
sucks. You tell him how to make his app even better than it now is, in
a way that would keep his workflow more or less along the same lines
while improbing every other bit. And with time you can even convince
him/her to improve workflow. I've been doing that for years, and guess
what -- it works.
I'm sure it does. Just keeping in mind that how the programmer uses his
or her app may well be *so different* from how someone else wants to use
the app, it doesn't make the app better for anyone, it only makes it
worse for everyone.
BTW, I see lots of programmers donating time to program apps, but damn
view UI or usability designers donating time to design UIs. So perhaps
those who complain about "this app doesn't work the way I want it to"
should stop complaining to the programmer and try to get some
UI/usability designers to contribute?
--
David
gnome(a)hawaii.rr.com
authenticity, honesty, community
Bedroom
software developers have never had to learn to
eat their own dogfood.
Actually, that is why many of the apps are the way they
are. Their
developers made them that way because they do use them, often daily.
(Many open source apps came about because some programmer had an itch,
and scratched it.) It works fine for them, so why should they change it
to fit some "amateur's idea" of how the program should work? 
8:29 p.m.
New subject: Laid to rest is Pro Tools LE"...
On Fri, Mar 4, 2011 at 2:26 PM, david <gnome(a)hawaii.rr.com> wrote:
BTW, I see lots of programmers donating time to
program apps, but damn view
UI or usability designers donating time to design UIs. So perhaps those who
complain about "this app doesn't work the way I want it to" should stop
complaining to the programmer and try to get some UI/usability designers to
contribute?
Don't worry, the Thorsten cloning machine is underway;)
Seablade
3:08 p.m.
New subject: Laid to rest is Pro Tools LE"...
Answers inline below...
On Thu, Mar 3, 2011 at 2:49 PM, Kim Cascone <kim(a)anechoicmedia.com> wrote:
Hello Kim,
I see - this is correct and true - until one encounters other legacy layers
Yes I know that article, which is very biased I think, but I was
referring to your article on CDM in which you state that for music
production on Linux one only needs ALSA (or FFADO for FireWire) and JACK.
which might present problems -- I have a vague memory
of needing to add a
Jack<-->ALSA midi bridge for Yoshimi synth as well as some sort of OSS ALSA
mod for some other app to work - sorry but details are fuzzy -
Just look at the fun that is PulseAudio for many people these days. It is
getting better but isn't there yet.
and also true is that one can use a distro that makes
all this invisible to
the user and streamlines the work needed to set up a workflow and get things
customized but finding these other (sometimes arcane) distros is not all
that easy -- the low hanging fruit is Ubuntu Studio which is rife with
issues and no easier to use really than installing Ubuntu and setting up
your own workflow with apps and utilities - which is what I have done
because I didn't want to switch to another distro i.e. staying with Ubuntu
was easier and didn't interrupt my busy work schedule etc etc
And here is the big thing, touched on later as well with the crapplications
comment.
Linux is competing against itself in this regards.
Ubuntu and Ubuntu Studio are two of the most troublesome distros for audio
in general. If it isn't lack of proper configuration, it is lack of proper
packages, very out of date packages, etc. These also happen to be the best
known and most publisized versions of Linux out there and like it or not,
when people that aren't already involved or have researched Linux hear the
word Linux, this is what they think of. This is generally the first
distribution someone tries, and their first thoughts are, "Well if this
which is supposed to be the best of Linux can't do basic things like allow
me to start Jack, the rest must suck".
I will repeat, Linux is competing against itself. The sad thing is that
Ubuntu and Ubuntu Studio have larger crews behind them, but because their
focus is so varied they aren't often tuned well for audio. Maybe sometime
it will get better, but until then, people are going to go with the terms
they know(Ubuntu == TheBestOfLinux if not Ubuntu == Linux) and are ALWAYS
going to walk away dissapointed because in order to do even basic things
that even WINDOWS(Much less Mac) can do out of the box they have to 'hack
the system'(Terminology courtesy of our tech media) just to get the basics
working, much less the more advanced things like realtime preemption.
Until something can be done about that, there is only so much point in
competing with even a now defunct product to be honest.
Seablade
PS Great credit to GMaq, Macinnis, and all the others that do put their time
and energy into maintaining audio focused distributions.
3:38 p.m.
New subject: Laid to rest is Pro Tools LE"...
On Fri, 4 Mar 2011 09:07:58 -0500
Thomas Vecchione <seablaede(a)gmail.com> wrote:
Answers inline below...
On Thu, Mar 3, 2011 at 2:49 PM, Kim Cascone <kim(a)anechoicmedia.com>
wrote:
Jack doesn't work out of the box on Ubuntu? From what I can remember it
did for me. Of course there was the usual period/frames/buffer tweaking
but that's unavoidable isn't it?
For me Ubuntu worked well for Audio except for one thing: keeping up to
date. Many linux audio apps are changing fast and comipiling often,
using checkinstall which didn't allways work, was hell. It's much
easier now with Arch.
cheers
renato
Hello Kim,
I see - this is correct and true - until one encounters other legacy
layers
Yes I know that article, which is very biased I think, but I was
referring to your article on CDM in which you state that for music
production on Linux one only needs ALSA (or FFADO for FireWire)
and JACK.
which might present problems -- I have a vague
memory of needing to
add a Jack<-->ALSA midi bridge for Yoshimi synth as well as some
sort of OSS ALSA mod for some other app to work - sorry but details
are fuzzy -
Just look at the fun that is PulseAudio for many people these days.
It is getting better but isn't there yet.
and also true is that one can use a distro that
makes all this
invisible to the user and streamlines the work needed to set up a
workflow and get things customized but finding these other
(sometimes arcane) distros is not all that easy -- the low hanging
fruit is Ubuntu Studio which is rife with issues and no easier to
use really than installing Ubuntu and setting up your own workflow
with apps and utilities - which is what I have done because I
didn't want to switch to another distro i.e. staying with Ubuntu
was easier and didn't interrupt my busy work schedule etc etc
And here is the big thing, touched on later as well with the
crapplications comment.
Linux is competing against itself in this regards.
Ubuntu and Ubuntu Studio are two of the most troublesome distros for
audio in general. If it isn't lack of proper configuration, it is
lack of proper packages, very out of date packages, etc. These also
happen to be the best known and most publisized versions of Linux out
there and like it or not, when people that aren't already involved or
have researched Linux hear the word Linux, this is what they think
of. This is generally the first distribution someone tries, and
their first thoughts are, "Well if this which is supposed to be the
best of Linux can't do basic things like allow me to start Jack, the
rest must suck".
I will repeat, Linux is competing against itself. The sad thing is
that Ubuntu and Ubuntu Studio have larger crews behind them, but
because their focus is so varied they aren't often tuned well for
audio. Maybe sometime it will get better, but until then, people are
going to go with the terms they know(Ubuntu == TheBestOfLinux if not
Ubuntu == Linux) and are ALWAYS going to walk away dissapointed
because in order to do even basic things that even WINDOWS(Much less
Mac) can do out of the box they have to 'hack the system'(Terminology
courtesy of our tech media) just to get the basics working, much less
the more advanced things like realtime preemption.
Until something can be done about that, there is only so much point in
competing with even a now defunct product to be honest.
Seablade
4:30 p.m.
New subject: Laid to rest is Pro Tools LE"...
On 3/4/11, Renato wrote:
Jack doesn't work out of the box on Ubuntu?
You missed the whole "RT kernel in 10.10" story? :)
For me Ubuntu worked well for Audio except for one
thing: keeping up to
date. Many linux audio apps are changing fast
It's not just audio apps evolving fast. It's also maintainers living
in the past. I had to wait for OpenEXR update two or three years after
a major new version was out. And even now apt-cache search luxblend
returns zero results. This is why folks like KXStudio and autostatic
are our true and only saviours :)
Alexandre Prokoudine
http://libregraphicsworld.org
6:06 p.m.
New subject: Laid to rest is Pro Tools LE"...
On Fri, 4 Mar 2011 18:30:09 +0300
Alexandre Prokoudine <alexandre.prokoudine(a)gmail.com> wrote:
ahh yeah, now I remember why it was so painful, not only compiling, but
first go looking if there was some PPA with the .deb, then adding it to
synaptic etc. I really got tired of it
why, if I understand correctly, are you using Ubuntu?
cheers
renato
On 3/4/11, Renato wrote:
yes, I did. Last Ubuntu I used was 9.04, and actually at that time
didn't use any RT kernel...
Jack doesn't work out of the box on Ubuntu?
You missed the whole "RT kernel in 10.10" story? :)
For me Ubuntu
worked well for Audio except for one thing: keeping
up to date. Many linux audio apps are changing fast
It's not just audio apps evolving fast. It's also maintainers living
in the past. I had to wait for OpenEXR update two or three years after
a major new version was out. And even now apt-cache search luxblend
returns zero results. This is why folks like KXStudio and autostatic
are our true and only saviours :)
10:48 p.m.
New subject: Laid to rest is Pro Tools LE"...
On 3/4/11, Renato wrote:
ahh yeah, now I remember why it was so painful, not only compiling, but
first go looking if there was some PPA with the .deb, then adding it to
synaptic etc. I really got tired of it
why, if I understand correctly, are you using Ubuntu?
Because I'm too lazy to switch systems? Because since 10.04 they
provide subjectively best UI for GNOME I've seen in years that even
such a picky bastard like me doesn't want to switch? Because most
things just work? You name it :)
Alexandre Prokoudine
http://libregraphicsworld.org
For me Ubuntu worked well for Audio except for one
thing: keeping
up to date. Many linux audio apps are changing fast
It's not just audio apps evolving fast. It's also maintainers living
in the past. I had to wait for OpenEXR update two or three years after
a major new version was out. And even now apt-cache search luxblend
returns zero results. This is why folks like KXStudio and autostatic
are our true and only saviours :)
9:50 p.m.
New subject: Laid to rest is Pro Tools LE"...
On Fri, 4 Mar 2011 15:41:03 +0100
Renato <rennabh(a)gmail.com> wrote:
Jack doesn't work out of the box on Ubuntu? From what I can remember
it did for me. Of course there was the usual period/frames/buffer
tweaking but that's unavoidable isn't it?
For me Ubuntu worked well for Audio except for one thing: keeping up
to date. Many linux audio apps are changing fast and comipiling often,
using checkinstall which didn't allways work, was hell. It's much
easier now with Arch.
cheers
renato
I won't reply in detail to the last messages, sorry, it really got too
convoluted for me, and it seems we've got to a point where we can only
restate what we allready stated. And, after all, I could be making
muffins instead of writing here
cheers
renato
4:56 p.m.
New subject: Laid to rest is Pro Tools LE"...
Am 03.03.2011 20:49, schrieb Kim Cascone:
I use to abandon any software, that does not work with jack at all,
pardon is granted only for video-editors, for now. This limits the
possibilities a bit but saves me a lot of time and trouble.
Sorry Kim, I didn't want to sound patronizing:( not at all -- I
was just pointing out that what works for you and me (as
more technically advanced users) will NOT work for 99% of the laptop
musicians we know who don't want to get bogged down in technical details
-- really all they want to do is 2xclick on Albleton Live and start
making music - having them tweak a .conf file just get xruns to a
minimum is *not* going to happen...so that perception of Linux audio
(right or wrong) is what keeps people from adopting Linux as a
production platform - and I know this from traveling the world and
meeting hundreds of laptop musicians every year...less than 1% are on
Linux...the Apple logo glows from most of the laptops I see staring back
at me in my workshops ;)
This is true in a way: you cannot be sure, that the next system you
install will still run RT-software as good as possible with Linux. But
this is absolutely NOT the fault of the developers. It is the fault of
the distributors.
Whenever I mention RT-stuff/pro-audio to distro-people at conferences or
events like Linuxtag, they keep demonstrating curiosity and padding my
shoulder very very friendly expressing their "great exitement" about
"what strange and marvellous things" cane be done lately under Linux.
And telling me, how "exiting" it is to start Audacity to transfer their
favourite BoneyM-LP to CD.
Sorry for the rant -- I actually never met anybody from any distro who
admitted to be in possession of a BoneyM-LP.
But in fact I did not met anyone from any distro that made a substantial
commitment towards the Pro-Audio community under Linux.
And all the specialized Distros like AV-Linux or 64Studio are more or
less one-man shows that depend on the deeds of the distros (e.g. Ubuntu,
Debian, Suse) their often astounding work is built upon.
So I am quite sure: If anybody wants Linux to be better for musicians
should concentrate on two things:
1.) press distributors to recognize the matter as "important" or at
least "relevant".
2.) support free devs with collaboration(code, bug-reports, feedback),
money and evangelizing -- in that order...
best regards
HZN
Hello Kim,
Yes I know that article, which is very biased I think, but I was
referring to your article on CDM in which you state that for music
production on Linux one only needs ALSA (or FFADO for FireWire) and JACK.
I see -
this is correct and true - until one encounters other legacy
layers which might present problems -- I have a vague memory of needing
to add a Jack<-->ALSA midi bridge for Yoshimi synth as well as some sort
of OSS ALSA mod for some other app to work - sorry but details are fuzzy - and also true is that one can use a distro that makes
all this invisible
to the user and streamlines the work needed to set up a workflow and get
things customized but finding these other (sometimes arcane) distros is
not all that easy -- the low hanging fruit is Ubuntu Studio which is
rife with issues and no easier to use really than installing Ubuntu and
setting up your own workflow with apps and utilities - which is what I
have done because I didn't want to switch to another distro i.e. staying
with Ubuntu was easier and didn't interrupt my busy work schedule etc etc
As of now I use Fedora on the Laptop and Suse on the big box. And I do
exactly the same things on both machines. Ardour, running Guitarix,
playing synths with seq24, experimenting a bit with Snd, Qtractor, LMMS
and Rosegarden.
If you ask me: distributions and even desktops do not matter much as
long as RT-settings are correct and working (wich is the case on both my
systems and on all systems I keep installed for more than 5-6 h)
>> As for tweaking conf
>> files, at the moment there are very few files you might have to
tweak,
>> /etc/security/limits.d/audio.conf (or /etc/security/limits.conf)
for the
>> necessary permissions, maybe /etc/systcl.conf for some
performance gain
>> and /etc/fstab to add noatime to the necessary mounts.
> yeah thanks, been there - done that -- sorry but that statement
right
there is why most people working in music
won't come anywhere near
Linux
> for production
> There are people
working on making it easier to set this up, I've seen some mock-ups for
Ubuntu Studio and Filipe Coelho from KX Studio is working on something
similar too.
true there are people working on making it easier - for years Linux
audio has made slow gains in being more robust, stable and easy to set
up a workflow rather than learning bash scripting - but there is still a
mess of layers and conflicting services that make for a complex and
confusing environment for most n00bs. Again, I refer you to the article
I wrote for CDM where I enumerate the various ways in which this happens.
I'd say that many Linux users who think nothing
of suggesting that all
someone need do is tweak a .conf file and enter the trial and error
Linux dance of minimizing xruns are indeed in 'simple denial' about the
needs of average laptop musician...not a criticism of you so much as an
observation from having been a Linux user for nearly 6 years now and a
100% Linux audio user for almost 2 years.
To wit: many responses from various Linux audio lists to obvious
problems that stem from poorly thought out applications, and the bugs
plaguing them, all suffer from the brow-beating and arrogance of those
who are more technically advanced versus those who just want to make
music and not get a degree in computer science. This is not an effective
way to win friends and influence people into adopting Linux.
But again, it is true that if more people knew about Pure Dyne (an
amazing distro), AVLinux (another top notch distro) or Tango Studio
(http://tangostudio.tuxfamily.org/en) then less of these 'set-up' type
problems would keep people from at least trying out Linux for audio
production.
Now the 'crapplications' that exist are another story - getting crap
software out of way involves both holding the developer's feet to the
fire to squash bugs and not just leave development in limbo (how many
Linux audio apps are there on Sourceforge that haven't been updated
since early to mid 2000's?) and to listen to and take seriously the
suggestions and criticisms of those people who actually MAKE MUSIC and
use the software. Bedroom software developers have never had to learn to
eat their own dogfood.
But unfortunately the public perception of Linux is still that it is
geek-ware and not user-friendly.
all in a days work,
kim
>
>> Imho I think you can add conservatism, sheer ignorance or simple
> denial
> >> that stuff can be done with Linux;)
> I'd say that 'simple denial' exists on both sides of the issue;)
>
You mean that I for example don't know about the needs and desires of
potential Linux audio users? Best,
Jeremy
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12 comments
7 participants
participants (7)
-
Alexandre Prokoudine -
david -
drew Roberts -
Hartmut Noack -
Kim Cascone -
Renato -
Thomas Vecchione