21 Sep
2007
21 Sep
'07
10:20 p.m.
AAAARRRGGHHHH!!! FOR GOODNESS SAKE!!!!!!!
Hardware manufacturers are now driving me totally insane. Are they all
completely brain dead? How in the world is anyone actually supposed to
use the appalling software sound cards they put in laptops and on
motherboards these days?
My previous laptop, a T20, had a CS46xx card, which was amazing- it had
a hardware mixer. Actually it wasn't amazing. It was an ordinary sound
card. The cards which don't have hardware mixing are useless pieces of
******* ****.
I now have an IBM ThinkPad T23, which has one of the censored types of
sound cards above, which is intel8x0 based. It is not capable of
hardware mixing. At the time I made this "upgrade" ALSA did not ship
with dmix enabled by default, and it drove me totally insane trying to
get it to work (more on why later). In the end I gave up and settled
with one audio application at a time.
Then one day, to my delight I read that ALSA was now shipping with dmix
enabled by default. It sortof worked, but to this day I have not
actually been able to use it properly, because any application which
doesn't use dmix blocked the soundcard anyway, so if any one of my
applications didn't use dmix I was back to one at a time.
(I'm looking at YOU, flash plugin (which, incidentally, also comes under
the category of "useless ****ing ****")- more on that later as well)
With the addition of a midi keyboard I now also have the problem of
realtime. So I added jack. And my current jack setup isn't acceptable
either. The main issue with jack is again the lack of hardware mixing. I
have to manually start the jack server when I want it and shut it down
if I want to play audio from any other application.
Actually, whilst I'm at it could somebody please explain why
fluidsynth --> ALSA
lags, yet
fluidsynth --> jack --> ALSA
does not? How in the world does adding yet another layer of software
actually SPEED UP the sound output??!?!?!?!?
Anyway, with the addition of MIDI I then find out that these cheap
software soundcards are also lacking MIDI sequencers, requiring software
to do that as well. Fine. I eventually got that working, and even in
(almost) realtime.
But now I want to play along to an mp3 track. And here a large number of
unacceptable hacks and compromises combine, eventually forcing me to go
right back to the beginning.
My initial thought was to try and get my other applications to use jack
directly, which would have the added bonus of mixing them nicely. Great
in theory, but xmms-jack didn't work and it looks like most other
applications will require similar hacks, which for the most part are not
available. I can't even get some applications to use ALSA instead of
OSS, so I don't really stand much chance of getting them to use jack.
And then I found this...
http://www.articleworld.org/index.php/How_to_force_ALSA_applications_to_use…
which looked great, but it uses /etc/asound.conf and ~/.asoundrc. Why is
this a problem? Well, aside from the horrific memories it brings back of
trying to get dmix to work, I am never actually sure if either of those
two files are actually being used, if the syntax is correct, or if the
particular contents I found on the internet should actually work. I am
convinced that there is some voodoo involved. The site given above also
mentions restarting the alsa rc script to make sure that the changes
take place, but since there isn't actually an alsa service this seems
like complete rubbish to me. The init script for alsa just saves and
loads volume levels. Besides, non root users can't run rc scripts, so
that's even more pointless with asoundrc files.
I have a 486 in my loft with an ISA AWE32 which I am sure can do better
than this.
So, to summarise:
1. How do you tell an application to use dmix (an old and probably
irrelevant question, but I want to know anyway)?
2. Why does adding an extra layer of software (jack) in between
fluidsynth and ALSA speed up the audio output?
3. How do I get proprietary software (which for some reason all still
uses OSS)(flash, teamspeak) to use ALSA?
3a. Or at the very least get the flash plugin to release the sound
device once it's finished, without requiring the whole of firefox to be
restarted?
4. How do I check that /etc/asound.conf and/or ~/.asoundrc are actually
being used?
5. How can I force applications to use jack (at the least I need xmms,
vlc, mplayer and preferably flash)?
If I buy a pcmcia soundcard is it worth it? Any recommendations? Will it
have hardware mixing and a hardware synth? Why are they so damn
expensive? I'm currently looking at 70 pounds on ebay for a Creative
Audigy 2, which seems totally ridiculous seeing as my midi controller
only cost 50. I'm loathed to buy a USB one (especially as I only have
USB1.1)- anyone got any comments on those?
The whole point of buying a midi controller instead of a normal keyboard
was that it was supposed to be cheaper and more portable. It doesn't
seem to be going that way.
Any suggestions?
Simon
21 Sep
21 Sep
11:59 p.m.
On Sat Sep 22, 2007 at 01:14:24AM +0100, Simon Williams wrote:
AAAARRRGGHHHH!!! FOR GOODNESS SAKE!!!!!!!
Hardware manufacturers are now driving me totally insane. Are they all
completely brain dead? How in the world is anyone actually supposed to use
the appalling software sound cards they put in laptops and on motherboards
these days?
most people don't. they just use the onboard speakers to watch youtube clips with
8kbps compressed audio..
that said, i found onboard sound completely usable with jack, from a technical standpoint.
the main prob is the desktop has horrible RFI sounding leakage on the autio out. and the
notebook has horrible quality and additionally after bumping the headphone jack only
outputs the left channel.,
(more on why later). In the end I gave up and settled
with one audio
application at a time.
have to manually start the jack server when I want it and shut it down if I
want to play audio from any other application.
youll definitely go insane if youre trying to use dmix ALSA apps and JACK stuff all at
once, with a single PCM.
ask yourself, do you really need those ALSA apps? which are they? mplayer has a jack
backend, as does gstreamer, so just about any media player should be covered if you choose
to use JACK instead of dmix for multiplexing your PCM
dmix blocked the soundcard anyway, so if any one of my
applications didn't
use dmix I was back to one at a time.
(I'm looking at YOU, flash plugin (which, incidentally, also comes under
the category of "useless ****ing ****")- more on that later as well)
flash opens another PCM if the lowest one is blocked, like hw:0,0,2 if hw:0,0,0 is in use.
not sure about other cards but my echo has 8 PCMs (and hw mixing) even tho theres only one
physical out.
Actually, whilst I'm at it could somebody please
explain why
fluidsynth --> ALSA
lags, yet
fluidsynth --> jack --> ALSA
does not? How in the world does adding yet another layer of software
actually SPEED UP the sound output??!?!?!?!?
cuz it picks a large buffer with ALSA and doesnt let you configure it easily.. instead of
slaving to jack's more sensible settings for realtime use
But now I want to play along to an mp3 track. And here
a large number of
unacceptable hacks and compromises combine, eventually forcing me to go
right back to the beginning.
eh? mplayer plays to jack, madjack is an OSC controllable mp3 player that afaik, _only_
plays to jack.. plus maybe one of the DAWs can play mp3 regions directly without decoding
to WAV on import (the way Samplitude has done for a decade), have you tried qtractor,
ardour, and traverso? maybe you can use ogg and one of them will do it by virtue of
libsndfile?
My initial thought was to try and get my other
applications to use jack
directly, which would have the added bonus of mixing them nicely. Great in
theory, but xmms-jack didn't work and it looks like most other applications
will require similar hacks, which for the most part are not available. I
xmms-jack is pretty old. audacious played to jack fine here, before i stopped using GUI
players entirely..
can't even get some applications to use ALSA
instead of OSS, so I don't
really stand much chance of getting them to use jack.
apps that still only support OSS? which are these?
And then I found this...
http://www.articleworld.org/index.php/How_to_force_ALSA_applications_to_use…
which looked great, but it uses /etc/asound.conf and ~/.asoundrc. Why is
this a problem? Well, aside from the horrific memories it brings back of
trying to get dmix to work, I am never actually sure if either of those two
files are actually being used, if the syntax is correct, or if the
particular contents I found on the internet should actually work. I am
convinced that there is some voodoo involved. The site given above also
mentions restarting the alsa rc script to make sure that the changes take
place, but since there isn't actually an alsa service this seems like
complete rubbish to me.
gentoo has a /etc/init.d/alsasound which handles the mixerstate and other stuff.. theres a
simialr script for initng
i think in general. udev handles it. i mean i cant even play sound without udev..
that jack-PCM for alsa is kinda nutty, and doesnt totally work. again, why not fix the
apps causing problems to not require hacks in the first place?
1. How do you tell an application to use dmix (an old
and probably
irrelevant question, but I want to know anyway)?
set the output to plug:dmix.
2. Why does adding an extra layer of software (jack)
in between fluidsynth
and ALSA speed up the audio output?
sane buffer defaults and better playback (callback) design
3. How do I get proprietary software (which for some
reason all still uses
OSS)(flash, teamspeak) to use ALSA?
flash doesnt use OSS anymore. upgrade to v9
3a. Or at the very least get the flash plugin to
release the sound device
once it's finished, without requiring the whole of firefox to be restarted?
gnash almost plays youtube these days, btw..
4. How do I check that /etc/asound.conf and/or
~/.asoundrc are actually
being used?
5. How can I force applications to use jack (at the least I need xmms, vlc,
mplayer and preferably flash)?
ao=jack in /etc/mplayer/mplayer.conf or ~/.mplayer. xmms, try audacious. flash, good luck
:)
If I buy a pcmcia soundcard is it worth it? Any
recommendations? Will it
have hardware mixing and a hardware synth? Why are they so damn expensive?
i'd say so. the sound quality differnce was night and day between the onboard ATIIXP
and Echo Indigo. like lifting a veil. plus the onboard plug stopped sending the right
channel after bumping it lightly once. my desktop had slightly better onboard quality
(intel8x0) but had horrible noise leakage from the cpu and USB..
I'm currently looking at 70 pounds on ebay for a
Creative Audigy 2, which
seems totally ridiculous seeing as my midi controller only cost 50. I'm
nice DACs and ADCs fit into a PCMCIA enclosure are surely more expensvie to produce than a
cheapo MIDI chip in a plastic USB brick.
that said, i got my indigo-io for a bit over 100 USD on ebay. thats what, 40 pounds?
loathed to buy a USB one (especially as I only have
USB1.1)- anyone got any
comments on those?
nope. i'd stay away :)
also note that most firewire interfaces are not bus-powered. unless you have a fat 6-pin
plug. (the little 4-pin plug being most common)
The whole point of buying a midi controller instead of a normal keyboard
was that it was supposed to be cheaper and more portable. It doesn't seem
to be going that way.
eh? every MIDI device i still own has usb bus power and additional MIDI ports (CME U-Key,
Korg PadKontrol). so ive got a MidiSport and MOTU MIDI thing just sitting in a pile of
junk
Any suggestions?
hope that helps. in summary i dont things are as bad as you make them seem (i can
empathize with the feelings of frustration. and used to feel like you, until making a few
changes)
Simon
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22 Sep
22 Sep
1:12 p.m.
cdr wrote:
Exactly- your 'Echo' has hardware mixing. The onboard cards I'm using do
not. I have one PCM.
flash, teamspeak.
That should help.
I must get round to trying that.
I don't think we are talking about the same thing. I bought an Evolution
MK461c (a midi controller keyboard- it requires a PC or other midi
device to actually make sounds), instead of getting some other keyboard
with it's own synth and speakers which could be played without needing a
computer.
Thanks
Simon
On Sat Sep 22, 2007 at 01:14:24AM +0100, Simon
Williams wrote:
jack works fine with my onboard card (apart from the occasional xrun,
but I'm working on that), but the problem is that whilst jack is running
nothing else can play sounds.
AAAARRRGGHHHH!!! FOR GOODNESS SAKE!!!!!!!
Hardware manufacturers
are now driving me totally insane. Are they all completely brain
dead? How in the world is anyone actually supposed to use the
appalling software sound cards they put in laptops and on
motherboards these days?
most people don't. they just use the onboard speakers to watch
youtube clips with 8kbps compressed audio..
that said, i found onboard sound completely usable with jack, from a
technical standpoint. youll definitely go insane if youre trying to use dmix
ALSA apps and
JACK stuff all at once, with a single PCM.
ask yourself, do you really need those ALSA apps? which are they?
mplayer has a jack backend, as does gstreamer, so just about any
media player should be covered if you choose to use JACK instead of
dmix for multiplexing your PCM
I want to use XMMS for almost all mp3 cases. Unless there is a similar
alternative. Usually I'm a hardcore command line person, but for a whole
playlist of mp3s xmms is much easier. I use mplayer if I want to play
files I've just downloaded, but once they are in my music collection I
want xmms.
dmix blocked
the soundcard anyway, so if any one of my applications
didn't use dmix I was back to one at a time. (I'm looking at YOU,
flash plugin (which, incidentally, also comes under the category of
"useless ****ing ****")- more on that later as well)
flash opens another PCM if the lowest one is blocked, like hw:0,0,2
if hw:0,0,0 is in use. not sure about other cards but my echo has 8
PCMs (and hw mixing) even tho theres only one physical out. My initial
thought was to try and get my other applications to use
jack directly, which would have the added bonus of mixing them
nicely. Great in theory, but xmms-jack didn't work and it looks
like most other applications will require similar hacks, which for
the most part are not available. I
xmms-jack is pretty old. audacious played to jack fine here, before i
stopped using GUI players entirely..
can't even get some applications to use ALSA
instead of OSS, so I
don't really stand much chance of getting them to use jack.
apps that still only support OSS? which are these? that jack-PCM for alsa is kinda nutty, and doesnt
totally work.
again, why not fix the apps causing problems to not require hacks in
the first place?
Perhaps I should reiterate the problem. I have one PCM device. Lets
assume for the moment that I can persuade all apps to use dmix. No
problem there. But I need jack for realtime. And in order for jack to
have realtime it can't use dmix. So either jack uses the PCM or dmix
does. Not both. Which means that if I want realtime (even for just
fluidsynth), I have to get all apps to use jack. I can't see any way of
getting jack to use dmix in realtime, so that's the only option.
3. How do I
get proprietary software (which for some reason all
still uses OSS)(flash, teamspeak) to use ALSA?
flash doesnt use OSS anymore. upgrade to v9 3a. Or at the
very least get the flash plugin to release the sound
device once it's finished, without requiring the whole of firefox
to be restarted?
gnash almost plays youtube these days, btw.. ao=jack in /etc/mplayer/mplayer.conf or ~/.mplayer.
xmms, try
audacious.
flash, good luck :)
Right, exactly. If just one
of the applications I need doesn't use the
software mixer I'm trying to use then everything falls flat on it's face
because that app will hog the PCM device and stop all other apps from
playing sound.
The whole
point of buying a midi controller instead of a normal
keyboard was that it was supposed to be cheaper and more portable.
It doesn't seem to be going that way.
eh? every MIDI device i still own has usb bus power and additional
MIDI ports (CME U-Key, Korg PadKontrol). so ive got a MidiSport and
MOTU MIDI thing just sitting in a pile of junk 
1:31 p.m.
On Sat, 22 Sep 2007 16:06:39 +0100
Simon Williams <simon(a)systemparadox.co.uk> wrote:
I want to use XMMS for almost all mp3 cases. Unless
there is a similar
alternative. Usually I'm a hardcore command line person, but for a whole
playlist of mp3s xmms is much easier. I use mplayer if I want to play
files I've just downloaded, but once they are in my music collection I
want xmms.
Get Jackasyn for xmms. With that as the default output plugin xmms will
use jack if it's there or go direct if it isn't
Also, if you use KDE, set arts to use jack then all the KDE, and KDE
based apps will send their sound to jack as well.
--
Will J Godfrey
http://www.musically.me.uk
2:25 p.m.
Folderol wrote:
Get Jackasyn for xmms. With that as the default output
plugin xmms will
use jack if it's there or go direct if it isn't
Ok thanks I'll look into that. I've got audacious going at the moment
and that works fairly well.
Also, if you use KDE, set arts to use jack then all
the KDE, and KDE
based apps will send their sound to jack as well.
Arts? *shiver*
I always disable it- it lags like crazy. I think that's because it keeps
suspending, but I don't need it anyway.
Thanks
Simon
7:56 p.m.
On Sat, Sep 22, 2007 at 04:31:41PM +0100, Folderol wrote:
Get Jackasyn for xmms. With that as the default output
plugin xmms will
use jack if it's there or go direct if it isn't
Also, if you use KDE, set arts to use jack then all the KDE, and KDE
based apps will send their sound to jack as well.
Alsaplayer will output to jack. It's a nice player, apart
from the resampling which is horrible.
This thread set me thinking again - what is the problem
with ALSA's dmix ? Is it
- Bugs and overloaded developers ?
- A fundamental problem with ALSA's design that will never
be solved ?
--
FA
Follie! Follie! Delirio vano è questo !
6:44 p.m.
Simon Williams <simon(a)systemparadox.co.uk> writes:
the problem is that whilst jack is running nothing
else can play
sounds.
JACK is supreme, therefor it should have the device;). You can use
pulseaudio with JACK output to have ALSA applications play to
it. There is also development on a oss2pulse module, of which parts of
it aims to go into the kernel.
The oss2jack thing sees little development.
The alsa:jack plugin is really bad.
--
Esben Stien is b0ef@e s a
http://www. s t n m
irc://irc. b - i . e/%23contact
sip:b0ef@ e e
jid:b0ef@ n n
22 Sep
22 Sep
6:46 p.m.
Simon Williams <simon(a)systemparadox.co.uk> writes:
The cards which don't have hardware mixing are
useless pieces of
******* ****.
You got it wrong; it's the devices that do hardware mixing that
sucks;).
Also remember that shorter posts gets you more replies;).
--
Esben Stien is b0ef@e s a
http://www. s t n m
irc://irc. b - i . e/%23contact
sip:b0ef@ e e
jid:b0ef@ n n
6076
days inactive
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days old
linux-audio-user@lists.linuxaudio.org
8 comments
6 participants
participants (6)
-
cdr -
Esben Stien -
Folderol -
Fons Adriaensen -
Lee Revell -
Simon Williams