eviltwin69(a)cableone.net wrote: Thanks for this post. pitchtune works great. My guitar has never sounded so good. I tune every note on my guitar down a whole step, so the "Guitar Note Selector" made this easy. I can't say I've tried every guitar tunner, but of the ones I have tried, this one was the best. My guitar is in perfect tune now. I never knew how good an accoustic guitar can sound when it's in such perfect tune. Rocco

MarC wrote: Lets see if we can start another semi useless string of which guitarists the world over can nit pick! :) Fact is, it is impossible to tune an acoustic guitar "perfectly"...Invariably, when you have it tuned so an open G chord sounds spot on, an open A or even C will be a tad off. And the same applies to the inverse of course. This all due to a general lack of adjustment for intonation on acoustic axes. But to the untuned ear (which I agree in sort...should be the final judge of how your axe is "tuned" ) this is not really noticeble. "don't let a hacker tune your guitar!" Now that's a great line! :) Although I'm not quite of the same ilk on this point (ergo...B52's Rock lobster 4 string special) and an untuned instrument of ~any~ sort will usually cause demons to appear in my personality and require excorcism if not remedied, if it is the missing "glue" to your music..... ~enjoy~ R~

En/na Jan Depner ha escrit: Great. I didn't know that technique.(I googled it). If it weren't so expensive I'd give it a try... Maybe when I get a decent job... By the way, I found this forum http://www.ibreathemusic.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=84&h… with the link http://www.buzzfeiten.com/Articles/Guitar_Shop/guitar_shop.html if you are lost about what is feiten tuning as I was you may take a look at them I would highlight */*/EricV/* <http://www.ibreathemusic.com/forums/member.php?u=2> saying:/* "After like 50 years of electric guitar and centuries of acoustic guitars, I would say that most of us have grown used to that slight "out of tune" effect..." :)

On Sun, 2004-12-19 at 18:55, Russell Hanaghan wrote: Actually, even guitars with adjustable bridge saddles won't be perfectly in tune with themselves, except for octaves, 4ths and fifths which are close enough that one can't really hear the difference. This is because the frets are in the wrong place in relation to the overtone series (pl). This applies to any instrument that has fixed notes (piano springs to mind), and which use the 12-tone equal temperament tuning. It's a long story, so I won't go into detail. Google for Just Intonation if you want to know more. It sheds a different light on various questions like, where *is* that confounded blue note? Why do major chords sound crap on overdrive? What's the deal with barbershop and string quartets? Why is D minor the saddest key? If I tune the B string by ear to the G string, why is it out of tune with the E string? Well, that's quite enough provocative questions for one post ;-) bye John

I know what well tempered tuning is, where it comes from, why we need it and that most popular instruments are tuned in this way. But what I do not know: Do guitarists tune the six strings in pure tuning, or do they add some aberration to make them tempered? Best regards ce

On Mon, 2004-20-12 at 01:16 +0100, Christoph Eckert wrote: Well.. there really is no "pure tuning" - it's something of a trade-off. You can tune your guitar so certain things sounds right, and others not. If you tune the B string to be exactly in tune with the B on the second fret of the A string, then tune the high E to the B string, the high E will be quite a bit sharp of the low E string and things will sound like garbage. There just isn't a "perfect" tuning (which is kinda frustrating until you learn to deal with it) E major and A major (chords) are the obvious examples (and all bar chords of the same shape). If you tune it so the E major chord sounds right, the 3rd of the A major will be flat, and if you tune so the A major sounds perfect, near everything sounds like crap. :) It's always that damn B string. Personally, I tune the B string a bit flatter than it "should" be and shoot for the best of both worlds (making sure the high E and low E are dead on). Every guitar is different as well, particularly acoustics where the adjustment is far more limited. (Not sure what this means in terms of well-tempered etc. though) -DR-

On Monday 20 December 2004 01:26 am, Lee Revell wrote: Ah. Now I know why I love open chords.

On Monday 20 December 2004 01:29 am, John Anderson wrote: That never stopped anybody ;)

On Sun, 2004-12-19 at 20:26 -0500, Joe Hartley wrote: "The brown noise is believed to be 92 cents below the lowest octave of E flat". Anyone want to try it? ;-) Lee

On Sun, Dec 19, 2004 at 08:26:52PM -0500, Joe Hartley wrote: and then there's the beige to consider as well.

On Sunday 19 December 2004 11:15 pm, Russell Hanaghan wrote: That's ill tempered tuning

Okay, sorry for this just had to bite as most guitarists are taught dodgy tuning methods... This one is for equal temperament, which you have to use because you have frets in a fixed position. Bear in mind that the intonation on your guitar has to be in for this to work (check the harmonic at the 12th fret with the fretted note there, they should be exactly the same) : 1 get your A string in tune from a piano, pitchfork, whatever... A is a good oneto start with because the peg is a little bit protected and it is the standard tuning note. 2 tune the low E by comparing the 5th fret on the E with the open A 3 tune the D by comparing the 12th fret harmonic on the A with the 7th fret on the D string 4 tune the G by comparing the 12th fret harmonic on the A with the the 2nd fret on the G string 5 tune the B by comparing the 5th fret harmonic on the A with the 10th fret on the B string 6 tune the top E by comparing the 5th fret harmonic on the A with the 5th fret on the top E string The rationale for all this is first that you are tuning everything off of the same string so you don't get compound error from tuning every string from the pitch of the last one tuned (A from 5th on E, D from 5th on A, etc) and secondly the harmonics which produce octaves should be perfectly in tune whereas the 5ths are out in terms of equal temperament. The only problem is getting to the pegs with your right hand while fretting with your left quick enough before the harmonics die out... Good luck getting that thing in tune, James Fenn -- James Fenn www.jamesfenn.co.uk

On Monday 20 December 2004 08:12 am, geekery(a)jamesfenn.co.uk wrote: This is the method I use. BTW, if you watch the B as you're cranking it'll resonate when it's fundamental coincides with the harmonic so you don't really have to pluck it. This is helpful in certain situations. The wrapped strings are too heavy to take advantage of the effect, but the A has enough mass relatively speaking. Beats trying to fret a note and crank any day.

Am Mittwoch 22 Dezember 2004 15:38 schrieb Maarten de Boer: at least in germany, the telephone signal is exactly at 440Hz. ce

On Wednesday 22 December 2004 01:33 pm, Erik Steffl wrote: If it's a solo instrument maybe but.. What if you sing and play? You need consistency on the temporal axis. Consider: How do you get a trombone section to play in tune? A: Shoot everybody but first chair. There are lots of good technical reasons for the hairsplitting but it all comes down to having a fixed point of reference over time. If that's not an issue then the importance of the minutiae diminishes. It's like everything else. What works for what you're doing at any given moment is the right thing. Sometimes it stays that way, sometimes there's a lesson later.

On Sun, 2004-12-19 at 18:40 -0500, Lee Revell wrote: No, not really. Well-Temperament is a fairly specific term. http://dwdraw.homeunix.org/music/info/music-temperaments.html Just Intonation is the correct term. Temperaments are all systems of intonation for fixed-pitch instruments--variable-pitched instruments have the ability to always use Just Intonation--that attempt to evenly distribute (relative to the mathematically perfect Just Intonation) the imperfect intervals. O T H E R L I N K S (also in paper): Specific Examples for Further Investigation Duffin, Ross W. Home page. Case Western Reserve University. < http://www.google.com/search?q=tuning+duffin+site%3Acwru.edu >. This source includes spreadsheets of pitches related to temperaments and sound samples. Kellner, Herbert Anton. “Johan Sebastian Bach: the well tempered tuning is unequal.” < http://ha.kellner.bei.t-online.de >. This source includes instructions on how to tune a harpsichord using the Werckmeister Temperament. Kamp, Wim. “Harpsichord.” < http://home.no.net/wimkamp/instruments/Harpsichord/harpsichord.html >. This source includes recordings of the author playing early music on a variety of temperaments.

On Mon, 20 Dec 2004 14:04:51 +0000 tim hall &lt;tech(a)glastonburymusic.org.uk&gt; wrote: ( much snippage ) Richard Lloyd, the guitarist for the band Television, has a bit to say on the topic at http://richardlloyd.com/lessons/index.htm Excerpted so y'all don't crush my feeble lil server: This particular method was shown me by guitarist Howard Harrison. It does however, require the use of your ear. First tune the bottom E. string to a tuning fork or tuning machine. Next, fret the E. string at the tenth fret. This will give you a D. Tune the D. string to this note by ear. Next, fret the D. string at the fifth fret. Tune the G. string to the D. string at the fifth fret. Now fret the G. string at the second fret. This gives you an A. Tune the A. string from this note. Now fret the A. string at the second fret. Tune the B. string from this note. It will be an octave up. Next, fret the D. string at the second fret. This gives you E. Tune your high E from this. Again this will be an octave. Voila! Strum the guitar. It should sound considerably more pleasing. If you are playing an acoustic or electric guitar by yourself this should work delightfully. If you are playing with other instruments it can take some real effort to find a harmoniousness between all the separate instruments, but I think that if you try this approach you will begin to get a taste of the difference between tuning to a machine and tuning to natural acoustic principles. But then, what if you are in a loud rock band or a large group where everybody uses the same tuning machine and everyone is in a hurry and no one has the time or inclination to listen to you rant about acoustic principles and esoteric philosophy? Then I will offer you this approach: Tune the guitar as usual to the machine. Tune the G. string slightly flat by about 2 cents. Make sure that the B. string is not flat. The B. string can be raised ever so slightly. Perhaps one cent or even 1/2. Experiment with it. If you have been using the other approach to tuning you should start to develop an ear for yourself. In any case, this approach can help significantly. Neither method can recover the full acoustic balance because all the frets are placed according to equal temperament. As long as we insist on being able to play in every key at the same time we will suffer this tradeoff. Enjoy. -- ====================================================================== Joe Hartley - UNIX/network Consultant - jh(a)brainiac.com Without deviation from the norm, "progress" is not possible. - FZappa

John Check wrote: Agreed! That's one of my fav scenes in that movie. I think I'm a Nigel groupie! :)

Every guitarist has to decide how he defines 'properly', I guess. Physics make it impossible to do a perfect tuning. This is why there existed many different tunings in ancient times, like Werckmeister 3, Kirnberger and even equally tempered was build to make all tunes sound equally bad - not to make them sound all perfect. B flat is not exactly the same note as A sharp, BTW... Best regards ce

On Mon, 2004-12-20 at 07:05, Michal Seta wrote: I read an article a while back where listening tests showed that most people prefer a slightly stretched octave. My guess though is that they'll prefer a stretched octave where the beating will correspond to their current brainwave frequency. Which when awake is normally 10 - 16 Hz, IIRC. But that's just a theory right now. Heh. No matter which way one looks at the whole conundrum, there's a tradeoff to be made. I have an old nylon-string acoustic that I unfretted. Playing it isn't too hard, except for some chords. The big problem is sustain, which is well, what sustain? This fixes the sustain problem, according to the reviews I've read: http://www.vigierguitars.com/GCatalog/Gve6f.htm bye John

On Mon, 2004-12-20 at 10:07, Russell Hanaghan wrote: "Without deviation, progress is not possible" Frank Zappa, of Shut up and play yer guitar fame :-p Of course, some of his music is nearly impossible to listen to comfortably. But that was the point I guess. What's what what's all about? bye John

On Monday 20 December 2004 06:15 am, Joe Hartley wrote: roll *skreet* roll *skreet*

On Monday 20 December 2004 03:07 am, Russell Hanaghan wrote: "Spank the plank". You crack me up Russell. How could you not put on a good show? If yer ever in NY, the first round is on me. You'll know if I get out that way, because I heckle ;) F*cking-A right.

On Tuesday 21 December 2004 10:56 am, Russell Hanaghan wrote: <schnip> The snow is falling in Moscow, da? A roll of the eyes, shake of the head and a "I remember _my_ first beer too" can be effective. Hmm, I'll have to try sticking my pecker out the window before this evenings festivities and see if it has the same effect.

On Monday 20 December 2004 12:05 am, Michal Seta wrote: Having frets that shift is an interesting engineering problem. One could have a hydraulic insert of some sort or possibly a servo controlled wedge system incorporated in the fingerboard. Tricking out the actual fret wire might get you enough tolerance not to have visible/tactilely nasty seams Somebody somewhere had to have tried conceptualizing it.

tim hall &lt;tech(a)glastonburymusic.org.uk&gt; writes: Gambas have moveable gut frets by default. I almost thought of using a similar technique for the guitar. The problem is that the fretboard is too flat for this to make sense. On an electric guitar it's almost feasible but the frets should be made with some other material than gut. My guess is that the gut will get easily damaged or cut under steel strings. ./MiS

On Tuesday 21 December 2004 11:41 am, Michal Seta wrote: What if, instead of a wire we use a hoop, as on a barrel? This'd go around the fingerboard so the mechanicals to lock it down would be inside the neck. Or even a cable going through a tube, which would act like a bearing when it's time to reposition.

On Tuesday 21 December 2004 06:52 am, tim hall wrote: Ah, thats a strategy I didn't consider. One could have sort of a traverse rod dealie with cams to lock 'em down.

On Sunday 19 December 2004 10:18 pm, Russell Hanaghan wrote: Thanks. I never will get used to 24 hour time. -- www.RTaylor-Design.Com