[linux-audio-dev] Tracker

[Dave Phillips]

Stonekeeper wrote:

>I go to sleep, wake up and see WW3 started! :)
>  
>
It's just a skirmish, not even a battle. ;)

I'd like to note a few things regarding SkaleTracker, CheeseTracker, et 
cetera.

First, I've used SkaleTracker. I profiled it for the MOD Tracker chapter 
in the next edition of my book. It's an interesting program and it's 
definitely worth trying out, with these caveats :

    1. The author is very clear that the current release for Linux is 
incomplete. Many features do not work yet. VST support is not there, for 
example.
    2. The author likes to hear from people using his software, just 
like open-source developers. The SkaleTracker Web site hosts a very nice 
forum where users can swap info and get the straight dope. Just like 
here on the LAD list...
    3. For all its GUI bells & whistles it's still behind the current 
versions of SoundTracker and CheeseTracker. This is to be expected, see 
note 1.
    4. The GUI (designed by H.R. Geiger?) is indeed attractive and could 
stand as an object lesson for LAD folks on what Windows/Mac users expect 
to see in an audio application interface. Like it or not, it at least 
shows a primary concern for GUI issues. LAD folk tend to be 
performance-centric, with interface considerations a rather distant 
second concern. There are of course notable exceptions.

It would be nice to see the author of SkaleTracker here on LAD, but not 
all Linux audio developers feel the need to be here. Some feel that the 
list is too dominated by particular personalities and/or philosophies 
for them to be comfortable here. Frankly I believe those fears are 
unbased, and a developer worth his salt should be able to stand some 
heat anyway. LAD is not a snake pit, but its denizens are proud and 
sometimes overly defensive, and you've seen that some of them do bite 
back when bitten. ;)

I also believe that it's important for Linux audio people to get outside 
this system and take a cool look at what's going on in the vastly larger 
world of Win/Mac music software. There's much to be gained by 
considering what the "competition" is up to.

Second, I've used CheeseTracker, it's also profiled in the new edition 
of my book. Frankly, IMO it's a great program, just as sweet as 
SkaleTracker, but as Juan points out it lacks the fancy GUI. 
Nevertheless, in terms of operating functions it's currently 'way ahead 
of SkaleTracker.

Also, it's worth pointing out that some fine Linux audio projects that 
are currently closed-source do in fact have plans to eventually 
open-source their work. It may seem strange to some developers here, but 
some coders do not want input from others until such a time that they 
feel their code is presentable. I say there's nothing wrong with that 
attitude: not everyone has the personality for managing a project with a 
lot of input, we can't all be like Paul Davis or Linus Torvalds. Some 
authors simply like working on their own too, again until such a time as 
they feel more confident about exposing their work publicly. Others are 
less shy about exposing themselves... ;)

>... What I found somewhat offencive was the
>dismissive attitude to a port that the author really didn't have to
>make. If I was him and reading this list I would think twice about
>dedicating my time to people whose only focus is "yeah, but is it
>opensource?".
>
Whether you acknowledge it or not, open-source software is politically a 
very hot topic. Especially here in the States, where M$ is doing 
everything in its power to eradicate Linux and other open-source 
endeavors. Those of us who keep track of what that company *does* (as 
opposed to what it's flacks *say*) know perfectly well that Linux is a 
very real and powerful threat to their hegemony. You might prefer to not 
engage in this kind of dialog: fine, that's your choice, but it doesn't 
change the fact that this issue is of profound importance, even to those 
who "want no part of politics". You can get away with that attitude in 
Windows, because you effectively give all your power to the company. Of 
course you won't care about that while you're composing in Cubase. But 
like the owners of StudioVision, maybe you'll start thinking about it if 
Steinberg goes out of business or decides to discontinue support for 
your software (which isn't really yours anyway: read your licenses for 
clarification).

The statement that people here who might use SkaleTracker are focused 
only on "Is it open-source ?" is either badly informed or poorly worded. 
I've met many of the members of this list, and almost all of them are 
musicians. Joern Nettingsmeier, Matthias Nagorni, Frank Barknecht, Jan 
Depner, and many others are players as well as coders. Open-source is 
indeed *one* item of great importance for them but it is not the only 
such item.

>So with this in mind I must ask a question:
>
>Do you think a port of Sonar or Nuendo to linux would be a good thing?
>
>If so, and it happened, i promise you it would not be open source. These
>people need to make a living.
>
Sorry, but "Yawn, heavy sigh". This issue has been yakked about many 
times over the years here. We're well along the way towards a 
technically superior platform for audio and MIDI work, but I see no 
signs that Sonar or Nuendo are on the way towards Linux. Nor should they 
bother at this point. They'll *really* start to concern themselves with 
us when Ardour starts popping up in a major studio or two and when Mix 
magazine runs a story about a name producer who used Ardour and Linux to 
create his latest sensation. Until then this domain is largely populated 
by developers and the rare musicians/users who have the confidence and 
time to work the system towards a more perfect condition.

You should take note that *no* commercial audio software for Linux has 
succeeded, and there have actually been a few nice apps for sale (Jazz 
and the Ultramaster RS101 come to mind). Perhaps your question really 
ought to be "If Sonar or Cubase were available for Linux would anyone 
buy it if Ardour + MusE did exactly the same things at a fraction of the 
cost ?".

>This port would mean that in the publics eyes, linux was now considered
>a viable alternative by the "industry" and linux audio has reached the
>big time.
>
Interesting. You seem to be saying that the public equates closed-source 
with big-time.

There was a day in my youth when musicians were perceived as radical 
people. Alas, they seem mostly now to be happy toeing corporate lines. 
Perhaps Linux is a motivating influence for those musicians who still 
perceive themselves as truly radical, denying that public equation in 
favor of something better ? Just a thought...

> You would have binary compatibility problems, like you said.
>You would also have nothing to show if the company went down, like you
>say. But for the windows musician, that's par for the course.
>
So you accept a poor situation and make a virtue of it ? I left the 
Win/Mac world precisely because I found that kind of rollover to be 
uncomfortable and ultimately unnecessary.

> If the
>motivation for a coder/company is NOT to make money, the opensource
>development model (IMHO) is the best way to go. All the benefits stated
>by various posters are available and I fully believe in this model,
>under that situation. I am a coder myself and a musician and i would
>personally opensource anything that I didn't need to make a living off. 
>  
>
Are you implying that it's not likely that anything open-source could be 
saleable ? I believe that's merely historical accident, i.e., we haven't 
had anything to compete with closed-source commercial offerings so there 
have been few open-source commercial offerings and those have not been 
competitive-capable. All that is changing now, which is perhaps why this 
discussion is worth having now.

Btw, are you making a living as a musician or a coder or both ?

>If you think a binary port of Sonar or Nuendo would be a bad thing, then
>that's more of an opinion based on philosophy and not based on
>furthering linux in the audio realm.
>  
>
Personally I'd be happy to see those ports, but I wouldn't go out of my 
way to support them unless the manufacturers bring something more to the 
party. Otherwise they'll be just some more hangers on for the ride, 
benefiting from the work done by many of the people who populate this 
list. To each his own though, and I can easily understand why a user 
would want those apps on this platform.

OTOH, if Steiberg et al. give something back then I'm better inclined to 
support their products. Linux is definitely one of the most successful 
"take & give" projects ever conceived, and if the guys at Sonar want my 
dollars then they'll have to get involved in the open-source world too. 
I don't say they have to make their product open-source, they could do 
as 4Front Technologies does by supporting an open-source project (4Front 
supports XMMS development). So there are ways for them to sell their 
product _and_ make a real contribution back to the community that's made 
it possible for them to have a superior platform to run on.

>It's good top talk. :)
>  
>
Yes, it is.

<OldManMutteringMode>
I'm reminded of the time I worked in a management collective for a food 
co-operative. One of the most important sections of our charter involved 
raising the political awareness of the membership because the politics 
of food are important (it's why the co-ops appeared in the first place). 
However, most members found that aspect to be tedious and uninteresting. 
They simply wanted lower prices for better quality food, they did not 
want to exert themselves in any political direction, and they were happy 
to deny that political implications even existed (or they were simply 
happy to let others concern themselves with the issues). This would have 
been fine, except the point of a co-op is co-operation, and the business 
could not succeed if its members were uninvolved in the political 
domain. I learned that some co-ops had excellent political involvement: 
they were most often co-ops in locations where people really needed them 
and were politically motivated out of necessity. Some of us here are 
like those people, we feel the necessity even if others do not.
</OldManMutteringMode>

Okay, that's my two drachmas. Most of the folks here have heard all this 
from me before, sorry about your luck.  ;)

Best regards,

Dave Phillips