23 Aug
2009
23 Aug
'09
3:53 p.m.
Greeting All,
This is my first posting, and I haven't been following the group very
long. I actually discovered it during some research I was doing in
order to promote Linux adoption to a major producer of professional
audio equipment. This post is about how I might do this most
effectively. It could get a bit long, and I'm not 100% certain that
Linuxaudio.org is the right place for it; it might be more business than
a .org site can stomach. If this doesn't sound interesting, read no
further, and try to show some mercy in your flames.
So, I've recently been in contact with the founder & chairman of a major
audio equipment company. This company makes high-end
keyboard/synthesizer/mix/record/playback equipment that's used in
studios and concerts by many big names in the industry.
Their devices currently run Windows, and I have an opportunity to pitch
the adoption of Linux to them. I got a nice introduction from a key
member of the AES, and then I wrote a 3-page report on the
opportunities, challenges, and strategies of Linux adoption. This was
well-received and now I've been invited for a phone conference next week.
My report was an attempt to create an informative and
as-unbiased-as-possible analysis of:
- the advantages & disadvantages of Linux adoption
- a strategy for the most effective way to get there
- a list of resources and references, of which linuxaudio.org is key
I might be willing to make the report available if anyone is interested,
but I have to remove any references to the company I'm working with. I
don't want to undermine their confidence, especially when I'm trying
calm their nerves about stepping out of the world of proprietary
software into that of free/open/libra, and realize their competitive
advantages in other ways.
Goals
My key priority is to promote Linux for audio equipment and to sew the
seeds of a strong, professional relationship with some key players in
the audio electronics industry. However, I'm also an independent
contractor, and if I can generate some paying work out of this, I will.
I expect that they'll need a few paid part-timers to grease the wheels;
do an initial port, setup & seed the forums, wikis, bug trackers, etc.,
and deal with any other important issues that volunteers don't step up to.
We're slowly getting to the point of my post. I have some open
questions for the group:
- is there really a business case Linux adoption? ...or should this
be viewed as a domain for hobbyists?
- are there any ways or indicators of determining the size of the
market they might reach if they adopt Linux?
- any tips or suggestions about working with the community?
Feel free to respond either on- or off-list. linuxaudio(at)bryanthansen.net
Bryant Hansen
Embedded Systems Engineer
Bryant is an engineer with nearly a decade of experience working in the
audio industry (at BridgeCo and Digital Harmony/Pavo). His most recent
professional experience is with embedded audio devices running Linux.
He holds a certification from the Linux Professional Institute and has
memberships with the IEEE and the Free Software Foundation.
23 Aug
23 Aug
4:38 p.m.
New subject: strange n00b post or: how I learned to embrace open source and stop making money
On Sun, Aug 23, 2009 at 12:52 PM, Bryant
Hansen<linuxaudio(a)bryanthansen.net> wrote:
Greeting All,
This is my first posting, and I haven't been following the group very
long. I actually discovered it during some research I was doing in
order to promote Linux adoption to a major producer of professional
audio equipment. This post is about how I might do this most
effectively. It could get a bit long, and I'm not 100% certain that
Linuxaudio.org is the right place for it; it might be more business than
a .org site can stomach. If this doesn't sound interesting, read no
further, and try to show some mercy in your flames.
Welcome!
Your efforts seem much in harmony with the basic mission of the Linux
Audio Consortium.
As you may know, the FFADO project has been doing similar work for
IEEE 1394 devices for several years now. Some of their experience may
be helpful.
--
joq
9:35 p.m.
On 08/24/2009 03:52 AM, Bryant Hansen wrote:
- is there really a business case Linux adoption? ...or should this
be viewed as a domain for hobbyists?
- are there any ways or indicators of determining the size of the
market they might reach if they adopt Linux?
- any tips or suggestions about working with the community?
Feel free to respond either on- or off-list. linuxaudio(at)bryanthansen.net
Hi,
I don't think anyone has publically available statistics on the market
size. There are now several companies making audio hardware that runs on
Linux. SAE is also training students with Ardour which is bound to have
a follow on affect for later adoption.
For working with the community try to release early and release often.
That will go a long way towards getting the naysayers of the high horse.
Be prepared to battle if you want to make a suggestion to the community
that is out of line with any or some other peoples views. If you can't
do the mods and patches by yourself then by all means pay the original
developers or if they are not available/interested feel free to post
here or on the LAD mailing list for assistance.
Cheers.
Patrick Shirkey
Boost Hardware Ltd
Bryant Hansen
Embedded Systems Engineer
Bryant is an engineer with nearly a decade of experience working in the
audio industry (at BridgeCo and Digital Harmony/Pavo). His most recent
professional experience is with embedded audio devices running Linux.
He holds a certification from the Linux Professional Institute and has
memberships with the IEEE and the Free Software Foundation.
_______________________________________________
Consortium mailing list
Consortium(a)lists.linuxaudio.org
http://lists.linuxaudio.org/mailman/listinfo/consortium
11:12 p.m.
New subject: strange n00b post or: how I learned to embrace open source and stop making money
On Sun, Aug 23, 2009 at 6:34 PM, Patrick
Shirkey<pshirkey(a)boosthardware.com> wrote:
On 08/24/2009 03:52 AM, Bryant Hansen wrote:
One advantage for hardware vendors: if they're willing to donate a few
devices to open source developers (plus specs), they can probably get
a device driver written for free.
I'll be away from my computer for the next week. I wish you luck in
your efforts. This is exactly the kind of support Linux audio needs
to break into the mainstream.
--
joq
- is there really a business case Linux adoption? ...or should this
be viewed as a domain for hobbyists?
- are there any ways or indicators of determining the size of the
market they might reach if they adopt Linux?
- any tips or suggestions about working with the community?
Feel free to respond either on- or off-list. linuxaudio(at)bryanthansen.net
I don't think anyone has publically available statistics on the market
size. There are now several companies making audio hardware that runs on
Linux. SAE is also training students with Ardour which is bound to have
a follow on affect for later adoption.
For working with the community try to release early and release often.
That will go a long way towards getting the naysayers of the high horse.
Be prepared to battle if you want to make a suggestion to the community
that is out of line with any or some other peoples views. If you can't
do the mods and patches by yourself then by all means pay the original
developers or if they are not available/interested feel free to post
here or on the LAD mailing list for assistance.
11:47 p.m.
One advantage for hardware vendors: if they're
willing to donate a few
devices to open source developers (plus specs), they can probably get
a device driver written for free.
Yes, this is something I need to count on as I propose the project. How
to use development dollars most efficiently and how to motivate the
audio/developer enthusiasts to start working (and playing) with this
really cool equipment. One can think of many financial benefits of
paying developers with equipment. However, one doesn't always get
development work done by giving equipment away. I'm guessing that there
are a lot of subtle strategies in connecting to the right people in the
community and providing the proper incentives to achieve the goals.
I'll be away from my computer for the next week.
I wish you luck in
your efforts. This is exactly the kind of support Linux audio needs
to break into the mainstream.
Thanks so much for the feedback!
Bryant
24 Aug
24 Aug
12:06 a.m.
New subject: strange n00b post or: how I learned to embrace open source and stop making money
On Sun, Aug 23, 2009 at 8:46 PM, Bryant
Hansen<linuxaudio(a)bryanthansen.net> wrote:
LAC and LAD should be able to help with that.
--
joq
One advantage
for hardware vendors: if they're willing to donate a few
devices to open source developers (plus specs), they can probably get
a device driver written for free.
Yes, this is something I need to count on as I propose the project. How
to use development dollars most efficiently and how to motivate the
audio/developer enthusiasts to start working (and playing) with this
really cool equipment. One can think of many financial benefits of
paying developers with equipment. However, one doesn't always get
development work done by giving equipment away. I'm guessing that there
are a lot of subtle strategies in connecting to the right people in the
community and providing the proper incentives to achieve the goals. 
23 Aug
23 Aug
11:25 p.m.
New subject: strange n00b post or: how I learned to embrace open source and stop making money
Hello Bryant!
This is indeed a great and noble effort, the one we at LAO should support
whichever way we can. I think it would be great to read your report (should
such prove to be feasible) as that way we could provide additional insight.
Regarding your questions, here are my thoughts:
We're slowly getting to the point of my post. I
have some open
questions for the group:
- is there really a business case Linux adoption? ...or should this
be viewed as a domain for hobbyists?
I think the fact that there are a number of Linux-based businesses some of
which are clearly thriving (even though most of them are outside the audio
domain) should speak strongly enough that there is clearly a business model
one can pursue through Linux. I also think, however, that the business model
in question is clearly different from the traditional ones that are based on
proprietary source. When thinking about doing business within the audio
domain one has to also consider the size of the market. In this case, audio
market is truly a niche when compared to server and other similar software
markets.
- are there any ways or indicators of determining the size of the
market they might reach if they adopt Linux?
I think this should not be the main agenda when adopting Linux, particularly
in an embedded environment (which this appears to be the case). The end-user
does not (and for the most part should not) care what is under the hood, so
to say. What is under the hood matters only to the extent that it works. And
if it works better and/or offers potential near or (as is IMHO the case with
Linux) long-term cost savings over the existing model that is ultimately all
should matter to businesses. That said, ironically this will also lead to
potentially larger market as the end-product may achieve lower cost and/or
greater features, something that is demanded by the consumers.
- any tips or suggestions about working with the community?
The first and foremost tip is honoring the code license and maintaining
strong communication with the community. Business ventures often have
opportunity to capitalize on additional brain power and as such can quickly
develop potent software solutions. This, however, when done without any
input from the community may end-up easily a wasted dead-end effort that
will ultimately die with the product it has been designed for. On the flip
side, should you decide to work with community, it is not unlikely that the
community may provide you with better solutions through their communally
wisdom than what your paid team could ever come up with.
Hope this helps!
As I mentioned we at LAO would definitely like to help any way we can, and
should this project take off, I certainly hope that you will consider also
becoming an active member of the LAO community.
Sincerely,
Ivica Ico Bukvic, D.M.A.
Director, Linuxaudio.org
Virginia Tech
Dept. of Music - 0240
Blacksburg, VA 24061
(540) 231-6139
(540) 231-5034 (fax)
ico(a)linuxaudio.org
www.linuxadio.org
Feel free to respond either on- or off-list.
linuxaudio(at)bryanthansen.net
Bryant Hansen
Embedded Systems Engineer
24 Aug
24 Aug
12:15 a.m.
Hi Ivica,
The reason that I bring this up is that I think market expansion is a
critical part of the business case. They have a mature, professional
product line that enjoys wide adoption in the audio industry. It's
stable and runs the software that musicians love. I'm not optimistic
that many of the existing customers would switch to the GNU/Linux
version in the near future. My feeling is that this will have to hit a
completely new market in order to justify any costs of development.
Quick point of clarification: the devices have a touchscreen, and both
computer and music keyboards, as well as an array of other controls.
It's not really embedded, but operates like one in many ways.
- are there
any ways or indicators of determining the size of the
market they might reach if they adopt Linux?
I think this should not be the main agenda when adopting Linux, particularly
in an embedded environment (which this appears to be the case). The end-user
does not (and for the most part should not) care what is under the hood, so
to say. What is under the hood matters only to the extent that it works. And
if it works better and/or offers potential near or (as is IMHO the case with
Linux) long-term cost savings over the existing model that is ultimately all
should matter to businesses. That said, ironically this will also lead to
potentially larger market as the end-product may achieve lower cost and/or
greater features, something that is demanded by the consumers. Hope this helps!
Yes, it does very much!
As I mentioned we at LAO would definitely like to help
any way we can, and
should this project take off, I certainly hope that you will consider also
becoming an active member of the LAO community.
Thank you. I'm touched by the warm welcome I've received.
Bryant
12:16 a.m.
Hi Ivica,
The reason that I bring this up is that I think market expansion is a
critical part of the business case. They have a mature, professional
product line that enjoys wide adoption in the audio industry. It's
stable and runs the software that musicians love. I'm not optimistic
that many of the existing customers would switch to the GNU/Linux
version in the near future. My feeling is that this will have to hit a
completely new market in order to justify any costs of development.
Quick point of clarification: the devices have a touchscreen, and both
computer and music keyboards, as well as an array of other controls.
It's not really embedded, but operates like one in many ways.
- are there
any ways or indicators of determining the size of the
market they might reach if they adopt Linux?
I think this should not be the main agenda when adopting Linux, particularly
in an embedded environment (which this appears to be the case). The end-user
does not (and for the most part should not) care what is under the hood, so
to say. What is under the hood matters only to the extent that it works. And
if it works better and/or offers potential near or (as is IMHO the case with
Linux) long-term cost savings over the existing model that is ultimately all
should matter to businesses. That said, ironically this will also lead to
potentially larger market as the end-product may achieve lower cost and/or
greater features, something that is demanded by the consumers. Hope this helps!
Yes, it does very much!
As I mentioned we at LAO would definitely like to help
any way we can, and
should this project take off, I certainly hope that you will consider also
becoming an active member of the LAO community.
Thank you. I'm touched by the warm welcome I've received, and certainly
intend to get involved.
Bryant
12:56 a.m.
AFAIK the current Korg Oasys Keyboard, Museresearch Receptor, Liontracks
Mediastation are and the Hartmann Neuron Synthesizer was based on an
embedded Linux system. Wasn't there a mixing console with some Linux and
Ardour in it?
Cheers,
Malte
--
----
media art + development
http://www.block4.com
new software released: contrOSC, control your Mackie C4 with OSC
http://controsc.sourceforge.net
5:08 a.m.
Malte Steiner a écrit :
AFAIK the current Korg Oasys Keyboard, Museresearch
Receptor, Liontracks
Mediastation are and the Hartmann Neuron Synthesizer was based on an
embedded Linux system. Wasn't there a mixing console with some Linux and
Ardour in it?
Cheers,
Malte
Harrison consoles' Xdubber runs Ardour on a custom 64studio distro but
it's a dubber not a console.
However, the Midas XL8 console runs Linux but I'm afraid it's only used
for the network/UI/GUI parts while the sound treatment still relies on
proprietary DSP.
I also know that the Denon DNC-640 CD/Network player runs on embedded
Linux (uClinux) because I own one but these devices violate the GPL;
they're unable to give me the source codes.
There might be a lot of embedded devices already running Linux we are
not aware of...
--
Raphaël Doursenaud
EMA Tech.
26 avenue Federico García Lorca / 64000 PAU / France
+33 (0)6 68 48 20 10
+33 (0)5 24 98 21 53
http://www.ematech.fr
R.C.S. de PAU 499 698 256 00017
Code A.P.E. : 9002Z (Activités de soutien au spectacle vivant)
6:31 a.m.
Hi Raphaël,
Harrison consoles' Xdubber runs Ardour on a custom
64studio distro but
it's a dubber not a console.
However, the Midas XL8 console runs Linux but I'm afraid it's only used
for the network/UI/GUI parts while the sound treatment still relies on
proprietary DSP.
The Allen & Heath iLive is Linux based, as confirmed by a trade show
representative of the company, although I don't have any details.
http://www.ilive-digital.com/
The Mackie Digital 8 Bus display looks uncannily like Ardour's mixer,
but a Mackie representative claimed to me that the device runs on
Windows XP Embedded. It's hard to confirm that without having a close look.
I also know that the Denon DNC-640 CD/Network player
runs on embedded
Linux (uClinux) because I own one but these devices violate the GPL;
they're unable to give me the source codes.
Unsure how, rather than unable, I think. I believe linuxaudio.org could
help these companies avoid GPL violations in future; this is still new
territory for most of them.
There might be a lot of embedded devices already
running Linux we are
not aware of...
For sure, but they often keep quiet because it's part of their
competitive advantage. Consider the developer time they are saving when
creating complex, low-latency, network-capable products.
Cheers!
Daniel
11:12 a.m.
On 08/24/2009 06:31 PM, Daniel James wrote:
This really has to be taken on a case by case basis. There are numerous
real time OS's out there that are custom built for specific chipsets.
I would guess that many of the newer products that have user interface
support are in the right arena for violations to occur though.
Patrick Shirkey
Boost Hardware Ltd
Hi Raphaël,
They also mentioned that they were using Linux software as a part of the
product on their website last time I looked. IIRC, originally they were
stating that it was running Linux but that has changed over the years.
Harrison consoles' Xdubber runs Ardour on a
custom 64studio distro but
it's a dubber not a console.
However, the Midas XL8 console runs Linux but I'm afraid it's only used
for the network/UI/GUI parts while the sound treatment still relies on
proprietary DSP.
The Allen& Heath iLive is Linux based, as confirmed by a trade show
representative of the company, although I don't have any details.
http://www.ilive-digital.com/
The Mackie Digital 8 Bus display looks uncannily like
Ardour's mixer,
but a Mackie representative claimed to me that the device runs on
Windows XP Embedded. It's hard to confirm that without having a close look.
This is the first I have heard mention of a violation by this company
with this product. We should pursue this...
I also know that the Denon DNC-640 CD/Network
player runs on embedded
Linux (uClinux) because I own one but these devices violate the GPL;
they're unable to give me the source codes.
Unsure how, rather than unable, I think. I believe linuxaudio.org could
help these companies avoid GPL violations in future; this is still new
territory for most of them.
There might be
a lot of embedded devices already running Linux we are
not aware of...
For sure, but they often keep quiet because it's part of their
competitive advantage. Consider the developer time they are saving when
creating complex, low-latency, network-capable products.
25 Aug
25 Aug
3:37 p.m.
Today I learned that the upcomming Beat Kangz hardware drumbox Beat
Thang is running on Linux too. Hopefully they get it right with the GPL.
And it would be hackable...
Cheers,
Malte
--
----
media art + development
http://www.block4.com
new software released: contrOSC, control your Mackie C4 with OSC
http://controsc.sourceforge.net
26 Aug
26 Aug
9:05 a.m.
Hi Malte,
Today I learned that the upcomming Beat Kangz hardware
drumbox Beat
Thang is running on Linux too. Hopefully they get it right with the GPL.
I think they will, Ron Stewart has been in touch with the boss there.
And it would be hackable...
Potentially, and I know what you mean, but I can see that word scaring
off companies like Beat Kangz. Maybe we should use a word like
'tweakable' instead. The currently fashionable word seems to be 'pimped'
but I'm not too keen on that word being applied to Free Software, given
its sleazy origins :-)
Cheers!
Daniel
5357
days inactive
5360
days old
consortium@lists.linuxaudio.org
15 comments
7 participants
participants (7)
-
Bryant Hansen -
Daniel James -
EMA Tech. -
Ivica Ico Bukvic -
Jack O'Quin -
Malte Steiner -
Patrick Shirkey