[LAU] By-sa (WAS: Re: [OT] Another problem with creative commons licenses [UPDATE] )

thomas fisher studio1 at commspeed.net
Mon Feb 25 12:34:39 EST 2008

On Saturday 23 February 2008 17:32:53 Cesare Marilungo wrote:
> Ken Restivo wrote:
> > On Thu, Feb 21, 2008 at 03:27:02PM +0100, Cesare Marilungo wrote:
> >> Rob wrote:
> >>> On Wednesday 20 February 2008 16:52, Cesare Marilungo wrote:
> >>>> Those who already got the tracks from Opsound can probably use them
> >>>> commercially, and they can give away the track but the license is
> >>>> not transmitted with the tracks. So those who get the tracks from
> >>>> these people cannot use them for commercial purposes. Otherwise one
> >>>> wouldn't been able to license things with many different licenses.
> >>>> Am I wrong?
> >>>
> >>> I'm no lawyer, but even in version 1.0 of the CC by-sa license, it
> >>> says in section 4a, "You may distribute, publicly display, publicly
> >>> perform, or publicly digitally perform the Work only under the terms
> >>> of this License [...]".  These terms apply to the people you gave it
> >>> to, which I guess would be Opsound.
> >>>
> >>> So Opsound distributed it under the terms of cc-by-sa, because that
> >>> was the only way they could have done so, and then the people who
> >>> downloaded it from them were covered by the terms of cc-by-sa, due to
> >>> section 4a, when they distributed it further.  They were granted the
> >>> right "to reproduce the Work" (section 3a) but only "under the terms
> >>> of this License" (4a).  So when they in turn distribute the song to
> >>> someone else, it's still licensed under cc-by-sa, and so on.
> >>>
> >>> It's hard to take back a work distributed using a copyleft license...
> >>> just ask SCO.
> >>>
> >>>> http://danheller.blogspot.com/2008/01/gaming-creative-commons-for-p
> >>>> rofit.html
> >>>> Maybe the author is wrong, but my understanding is similar.
> >>>
> >>> I think that he is wrong, and again, just ask SCO.  Or the author of
> >>> any formerly free software project who changed the license to
> >>> something less free, only to discover they couldn't do a thing about
> >>> the people continuing to distribute (and modify) the last free
> >>> version of their work, usually eclipsing the "improved" proprietary
> >>> fork.
> >>>
> >>> However, this particular theory -- that you can win damages despite
> >>> previously having distributed the work under a free license with free
> >>> sublicensing, by forcing the defendant to demonstrate that he
> >>> obtained it under that license -- has never gotten as far as a
> >>> courtroom as far as I know.  With source code it's easier because you
> >>> usually have a copyright notice at the top of every file referencing
> >>> the GPL or whatever.  With photos you might have a watermark
> >>> mentioning which CC license applies to it.  But with music, what do
> >>> you have, an ID3v2 tag?  Usually not even that.
> >>>
> >>> In the end, at least in the US, anyone can cost you a lot of money
> >>> just by bringing suit against you, whether they have grounds or not.
> >>> What makes the system work most of the time is that the expense cuts
> >>> both ways.
> >>>
> >>> Back when I was younger and too broke to afford a lawyer, in the early
> >>> days of the web, I received a legal threat from someone who claimed
> >>> something on my web site infringed a copyright, one he himself didn't
> >>> even own.  He was pretty explicit about his strategy being to cause
> >>> me expenses I couldn't afford, regardless of whether he had standing,
> >>> and I had to capitulate.  Eventually I called his bluff, put the
> >>> material back online and told him to shove off, and he went away.  It
> >>> costs money to pull that kind of crap as well, and I pity the
> >>> copyright owner who tries this strategy the first time he uses it
> >>> against someone with more money and time than he has.
> >>>
> >>> Oh, wait.  No I don't, because that would once again be SCO.
> >>>
> >>> Rob
> >>
> >> For the record. I asked for help on the creative commons mailing list.
> >> It seems that I should not worry and that I can keep the by-nc-nd for
> >> these tracks.
> >>
> >> Moreover, I think that to be valid, the license should be specified at
> >> least in the id3 tags, and/or it should come with the download. When you
> >> download my albums from Jamendo, for instance, the license is specified
> >> both in the id3 tags and in a text file included in the zip archive. At
> >> Opsound the downloads pointed to the tracks hosted on my own server,
> >> which had no licensing information.
> >
> > The big money people (advertising agencies, movie studios, TV networks,
> > ringtone sellers, etc.) do not want to Share Alike. They're not about
> > that; quite the opposite. They usually demand tight control over anything
> > they use in their work, and are willing to pay for that.
> >
> > In other words, if someone sells an SA work of mine, they're not going to
> > make a LOT of money off of it, at least not enough for it to have been
> > worthwhile for me to have prevented them doing so with NC. Have at it,
> > spread the love!  But the big corporations who make huge money are going
> > to be stopped short by the SA just as much as they would by an NC.
> >
> > So I look at SA as a filter that lets the small, community-oriented
> > players in freely, and keeps the big players out-- unless they want to
> > negotiate a price with me which of course I remain willing to do.
> >
> > -ken
> Still, I'm not convinced.
> This would require big money people to keep existing and ruling. The
> only way you can make some money would be to play with them. I hope
> something different. Like voluntary support from appreciators, for
> instance.
> Moreover, this takes into account old (and falling apart) revenue models.
> Preventing sharing doesn't make sense. And I incite it. Thus the 'music
> sharing cc-license'. It's enough of a statement compared to almost all
> the musician you know and care of. But I can't understand why I should
> not impose some restrictions on using my own music. There's plenty of
> musicians out there if you want to use some music for any kind of
> projects. Or you can just come and ask. I, for one, have never said no.
> I just want to know.
> It's a kind of control, I know. I'm not proud of using this word.
> Btw, has somebody here seen the movie 'Instinct'?:
> http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0128278/
> It's about control, and freedom. I've seen it yesterday on tv with my
> wife. Really good movie.
----------------------------clipped ---------------------------------------------
> wanted to make some money I would make a website with some content (like
> cc license music, for instance) crawled automatically and put a ton of
> ads. It would probably be much more rewarding than struggling with
> something you care.
> All the best,
> -c.
Good discussion.
I have followed this thread and have learned much. When it comes to the black 
box generally labeled "LAW" the artisan is confronted with yet another "hat" 
to wear!  I believe Shakespeare could have said:
  "To be free to will the destiny of that which you have created, that is the 
  As the artisan, through a compulsion of the heart and mind, brings forth 
into this dimensionality a something that never before has been known. For 
the sculptor the cutting edge of his chisel shapes a distinct object. The 
resultant object can relatively easily be kept within a guarded space. For 
the flute player, the note just now cut has at it's audience the most distant 
star. Let us face the fact that creative energies have other energies that 
host from them. Though I do not like it to be as such, it does seem to be 
part of the natural cycle of things. Tai Chi taught me to be as soft as 
cotton and as hard as steel.

  I find at times I need to know the sword. 

 A law course for the layman? 

  I have learned a lot being a member of the mailing list and their free 
I hope this helps

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