9 Jan
2003
9 Jan
'03
2:19 a.m.
[Replying to some posts by Tim Hockin.]
On Wednesday 08 January 2003 23.55, Tim Hockin wrote:
[...]
Where? (The VVID entries? No, those are "private" to synths!)
[...]
And that is what I am not convinced of - I'm not against VVIDs, I
just want to play it out..
Well, unless I'm forgetting something, it's basicaly "just" the
latency issue, which seems to make controlling remote synths
impractical, if at all possible. (I think it needs further API logic
to work. See below.)
Apart from that, I just think it's ugly having both hosts and senders
mess with "keys" that really belong in the synth internals. Even
having hosts provide VVID entries (which they never access) is
stretching it, but it's the cleanest way of avoiding "voice
searching" proposed so far, and it's a synth<->local host thing only.
BTW, we've already agreed on doing this for control addressing. (The
cookies that replaced control indices.) The big difference is that
that's not a sample accurate real time protocol.
No, plugins have a fixed namespace - they dole out real VIDs to
whomever asks for them.
Well, yes. It's just that VIDs become illegal as voices are stolen,
so synths have to remember which voices should not accept direct
addressing. (Those should respond only to the temporary negative
virtual VIDs, until the host starts using the real VID - whenever it
find out about that. That's where >1 block latency becomes seriously
troublesome - the *real* latency issue.)
I think that's really rather counter-intuitive. Isn't part of the
point with handing out a VID that you generate yourself that you
shouldn't have to check incoming VIDs all the time?
Further, I don't like the idea of forcing senders to virtualize VIDs
internally, just to be able to use *both* VIDs they invent themselves
(the negative ones) and "real" VIDs returned from the synths.
You have a pool of VVIDs. Some of them are long-lasting. Some are
short lasting. You always want to find the LRU VVID. If there are
available VVIDs, take the LRU free one. If there are not, you
either need to voice-steal at the host or alloc more VVIDs. Right?
Well, what *actually* made me comment on that, is that I thought
"vvid_is_active()" had something to do with whether or not the
*synth* is using the VVID.
Was that the idea? If so; again; VVID entries are not for feedback;
they simply do not exist to senders. They're a host provided VVID
mapping service for synths; nothing else.
So, as to "allocating" VVIDs, it's nothing more than a matter of
keeping "note contexts" apart. In many cases, you don't even need a
VVID manager for that. All you have to guarantee is that there is one
VVID for each note you want to control at any time.
On Thursday 09 January 2003 00.06, Tim Hockin wrote:
They can handle it by actually doing what the hint suggests; sample
the "initializer" control values only when a note is started. That
way, they'll "sort of" do the right thing even when driven by data
generated/recorded for synths/sounds that use these controls as
continous. And more interestingly; continous control synth/sounds can
be driven properly by initializer oriented data.
On Thursday 09 January 2003 00.49, Tim Hockin wrote:
This is where the confusion/disagreement is, I think: I don't think
of this event as "INIT_START", but rather as "CONTEXT_START". I
don't
see the need for a specific "init" part of the lifetime of a context.
Initialization ends whenever the synth decides to start playing
instead of just tracking controls.
When you want to play a note, you create a context (by grabbing a
VVID and saying "VOICE_ALLOC" or whatever), and then you just send
control events. Some control changes will get the synth to play
sound, and some will instantly or eventually stop the sound. It's
entirely possible that the synth will sometimes just track controls,
using a fake voice, or that it will just disable most of the voice
code, when no sound is to be generated. (It's really two ways of
doing the same thing, only the former seems more "honest" in terms of
actual polyphony vs CPU load, since "fake voices" wouldn't count
towards polyphony.)
The context never *explicitly* ends, but you could say that it ends
physically when the sender has reassigned the VVID and the synth has
killed the voice. Thus, no need for a "VOICE_END" or similar event
either.
a voice has to be started. Maybe not. Maybe the
synth can report
that it has N voices on at all times. Hmm. Still, VOICE_ALLOC is
akin to note_on.
Well, if a voice can be "started" and still actually both silent and
physically deactivated (that is, acting as or being a dump control
tracker) - then yes.
(A sensible API shouldn't make this illegal, and I can't really see
how it could prevent it.)
Also, keep in
mind that any feedback of this kind requires a real
connection in the reverse direction. This makes the API and hosts
more complex - and I still can't see any benefit, really.
We already have a rudimentary reverse path. The only problem is that it requires dialog.
That's a rather serious problem, OTOH... * no carving of a VVID namespace for controller
plugins
No, plugins have to do that in real time instead. Are VVIDs global or per-plugin? Sorry, I
forget what we had decided on that..
For practical reasons, I think they're best handled as per-host. That
is, they're "global" as long as you're only talking to local synths,
but you really should think of them as *per-plugin* when you want to
talk to synths. (That way, you can connect to remote synths
transparently WRT VVIDs.)
So, officially:
VVIDs are per plugin.
For host authors:
VVIDs *can* be managed globaly for the local host.
/* find a vvid that is not currently playing */
do {
this_vvid = vvid_next++;
while (vvid_is_active(this_vvid);
Again, this is voice allocation. Leave this to the synth. Yes, and
that's my problem with it. Or rather; it's ok for synths
to be able to hint that they use controls this way, but designing
the voice addressing/allocation scheme around it has serious
implications.
Yes, definitely hint. Anal-retentive hosts will show it as an
init-option only if it is flagged as such. Synths still need to
handle spurious and incorrect events (fall through I'd guess), but
it is a nice hint to the UI. Seriously,
though; there has to be *one* of DETACH_VVID and
VOICE_ALLOCATE. From the implementation POV, it seems to me that
they are essentially equivalent, as both are effectively used
when you want to say "I'll use this VVID for a new context from
now on." VOICE_ALLOCATE is obviously closer to the right name for
that action.
Agreed - they are semantically the same. The question is whether
or not it has a counterpart to say that init-time controls are
done. As for redundancy - I see it as minimum requirement.
Suppose I want to turn a voice on with no control changes from the
default (no velocity, nothing).
Well, that's equivalent to a MIDI NoteOn with a velocity of 0.
(NoteOff shorthand for running status, that is.) Why would you want
to do that?
For a continous velocity instrument, this is obvious; default
velocity has to be 0, or you'll have a "random" note started soon as
a voice is allocated. Thus you *have* to change the velocity control
to start a note.
For a "latched velocity" instrument (MIDI style), it's exactly the
same thing. There will be a NOTE control, and it has to be "off" by
default. Just set it to "on" to start a note with default velocity.
BTW, it might be a good idea to always provide NOTE output from
senders, even though continous velocity and similar synths won't care
about it. Then again, continous velocity data doesn't work very well
as velocity data for note based synths, so it's probably not much
use...
Something will have to do some transformations to make this work -
and that's way beyond the API level. Analyze entire "notes" of
continous velocity data and calculate a note-on velocity from that;
that sort of stuff. Or just connect VELOCITY to the VOLUME input, and
use the synth's default velocity for note-ons? Maybe...
I need to send SOMETHING to say
"connect this VVID to a voice". The minimum required is a VOICE_ON
or similar.
Yes. "VOICE_ALLOC" doesn't trigger a MIDIism allergy reaction for me
at least, but it's still a bit confusing...
For something that has no per-voice controls (e.g. a
white-noise machine) you still need to send some event.
Fiddle with the NOTE control, maybe? (Which would default to "off",
of course.)
And I'd
rather see the voice-on protocol be consistent for all instruments.
Me too, but controlling note based and continous control synths the
same way is tricky...
Though, you *can* make the NOTE control continous, rather than a
switch... Traditional synths would just check it for >0, while
continous velocity synths would actually interpret it as the note
velocity input.
So why not call it VELOCITY, then, and ditch NOTE?
Well, the main reason is release velocity for note based synths. If
you have only a VELOCITY control, you can interpret the change from 0
to >0 as "note on", and the actual value as the note velocity. Then
you would just wait until VELOCITY becomes 0 again, which means "note
off".
Now, how do we express release velocity with that scheme? Negative
values? (Could make a continous velocity synth blow up!) Current
VELOCITY value before VELOCITY goes 0? (Requires two VELOCITY events
to implement note off with velocity, and that would make no sense to
a continous velocity synth.)
Use both NOTE and VELOCITY controls (both continous), and have NOTE
be the primary one? Continous velocity synths would normally not have
a VELOCITY input, but would look at the value of NOTE. Other synths
would look at both, but interpret NOTE as a switch, where >0 means
"on".
Still broken, though: Release velocity doesn's fit in... :-/
Use a third control for that!? Actually, that makes quite some sense,
since many real instruments use totally different mechanisms for
starting and stopping notes. Pianos. Cymbals...
VELOCITY vs DAMPING, or something. (Makes sense for continous
velocity instruments as well!)
If that means you have to send two events
(VOICE_ALLOC, VOICE_ON)
for the white-noise maker, then I can live with that.
Well, yes. And you'll also have to send a third event (corresponding
to VOICE_OFF) to stop it, since just "letting go" of a VVID doesn't
affect anything. (It's a NOP, as far as the API and synths are
concerned.)
If nothing else, *that* should indicate where this VOICE_ON really
belongs - and I don't think it's anywhere near VVID/voice management.
It's a Voice Control thing.
On Thursday 09 January 2003 00.55, Tim Hockin wrote:
[...]
Synth needs to know where the table is - We'd need
to do
double-indirection so that the table can move if needed.
struct voice *v = myvoices[(*(host->vvid_table))[vvid]];
Why double indirection? I think it's enough to say that you must
never store the pointer across process() calls. Note that senders
don't use the table, so it doesn't matter if they cause reallocation
by asking for more VVIDs while processing. Event processors might
have to worry about it, though.
On a sidenote, event processors may also want to be able to find out
whether or not input VVIDs are compatible with the target of the
output. Doesn't make much sense to manage your own VVIDs if you never
need to allocate your own voices... (Transpose and delay plugins, for
example.)
On Thursday 09 January 2003 00.59, Tim Hockin wrote:
[...]
It's attractive to use special values for
meanings. The plugin
could tell the host that a VVID is done by setting it to a value.
Same for errors.
How is this different from a plugin sending event back to the host?
(See above. VVID entries are for synths only.)
And what of remote plugins?
Allocate VVIDs from the remote host.
Obviously, you are not allowed to assume that a VVID (the index) is
globally unique. VVIDs for remote synths may well overlap with VVIDs
for local synths, or remote synths on other hosts.
Do they have shared-memory access to
the VVID table or is it function-call based?
They have no access at all, except indirectly through the events sent
to the synth. (And that's write-only.)
//David Olofson - Programmer, Composer, Open Source Advocate
.- The Return of Audiality! --------------------------------.
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