Linux-audio-dev

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RE: [linux-audio-dev] Re: image problem [was Re: [Alsa-devel] hel p for a levelmeter]

by STEFFL, ERIK (SBCSI)

> -----Original Message----- > From: Taybin Rutkin [mailto:trutkin@physics.clarku.edu] > > On Tue, 22 Oct 2002, STEFFL, ERIK (SBCSI) wrote: > > > except of the blocking of sounds (the problem mentioned > above) I am quite > > dissapointed by functionality of linux drivers I have > tried, I have sb live > > platinum and (last time I checked): > > Maybe you should buy cards from companies that care about > Linux support. and which are those? I know of no way to get information about how good/complete the alsa driver is. I have read number of thread on various mailing lists/forums etc. about which cards to use (for different purposes) and I didn't find any useful information... The docs at alsa site are pretty much useless for this purpose (as far as I can tell). BTW creative provides some linux support. Plus the sound matrix at http://www.alsa-project.org/alsa-doc/ doesn't say there are problems getting docs from manufacturer. > You seem to be forgetting that most of the drivers are written by > volunteers working without documentation. no I don't. I am not saying somebody should go and fix my problems. I was just ranting because I am frustrated and I hope it will provide semi-useful feedback to somebody... (and somebody will go and fix my problems:-) possibly... and we were talking about acceptance of linux audio. erik

22 years, 7 months

RE: [linux-audio-dev] Re: image problem [was Re: [Alsa-devel] hel p for a levelmeter]

by STEFFL, ERIK (SBCSI)

> -----Original Message----- > From: Patrick Shirkey [mailto:pshirkey@boosthardware.com] > Eric wrote: > >it is also pretty much useless for general users. I mean if I can't > >listen to mp3 and browse the web at the same time ... > (without sound > >servers which were discussed recently and as far as I can tell the > >general consensus is that they are bad and not to be used). > > This is a misconception on your part. The general consensus no it is not. > is that the > artsd, esd, gstreamer... servers are *very* useful just not for > professional audio needs. the sound system has to work. using a specific sound server limits you to using programs that work with given sound server. that's what I call useless (as a general solution, some might find it useful). and btw last time I tried (iirc esd) the sound wuality was poor compared to sound going straight to sound card (pentium 1GHz, sb awe). also - why should there be any difference between professional and non-professional software? should peopole who are not in studio not be able to record? should the mp3 player be worse when you are not being for listening to it? or? obviously the style of work of professional is different but that doesn't mean that the programs for non-professional use should be of lesser quality. in other words: everything (talking about infrastructure, not each individual application) should be suitable for professional use (the point: if the sound server is not for professional work than it's not for amateur work either). > I am pretty sure that people who only need to browse and hear why "only". think of s/only/also/ professional system or not, I would expect it to be capable running browser and mp3 player at the same time (even though I would not expect this capability to be used in studio work). erik

22 years, 7 months

RE: [linux-audio-dev] Re: image problem [was Re: [Alsa-devel] hel p for a levelmeter]

by STEFFL, ERIK (SBCSI)

> -----Original Message----- > From: Peter L Jones [mailto:peter@drealm.org.uk] > On Tuesday 22 Oct 2002 20:27, Patrick Shirkey wrote: > > Peter wrote: > > >All these things just make life _easier_. I want to get on with > > >developing code, not wondering why my hardware isn't performing. I > > >don't _want_ to have to learn _that_ part of the system. > Because I'll > > >only need to do it once: > > >when I spec the next machine. (The next time I spec a machine, > > >everything I found out last time will be out of date.) > > > > This is a good idea to have this support and you've picked the right > > thread for asking for it. Currently there are only a > handful of people > > who have worked on the official ALSA docs. I have done 90% > of the work > > myself. It's great I'm learning heaps in the process and > will definitely > > think about how to make it possible to add the info you require. > > > > Unfortunately we don't often get success stories on the > ALSA lists so we > > don't really know how well things work until someone says that it's > > broken :( > > Heh. the life of a software developer. You only get fault > reports and feature > requests (that need to be delivered yesterday) :-). actually I think it would be of great value to document the failures - from alsa web site (and even reading alsa-user mailing list) you might be under impression that sound blaster live platinum works fairly well, the truth is that it doesn't work really well (for what I want to use it for - external midi doesn't really work, rca connectors are dead (last time I checked)). erik

22 years, 7 months

RE: [linux-audio-dev] Re: image problem

by STEFFL, ERIK (SBCSI)

> -----Original Message----- > From: Anthony [mailto:avan@uwm.edu] > Sent: Tuesday, October 22, 2002 7:47 PM > To: linux-audio-dev(a)music.columbia.edu > Subject: Re: [linux-audio-dev] Re: image problem > > > * Ivica Bukvic <ico(a)fuse.net> [Oct 22 02 20:16]: > > > I am thankful for Jack, but at the same time that does not > mean there > > should be no criticism. If you are referring to me > criticizing Paul's > > statements, then how do we dare criticize Linus Torvalds > for letting OSS > > happen? After all, he is the one who made Linux, without > him Linux would > > have never been. And since we use it, should we simply shut > up and use > > it with OSS? ;-) > > Theres quite some difference between constructive criticism and saying > that something is broken or incomplete because it doesn't meet > your needs, despite being told over and over that your needs > were never > the objective of the system in the first place or there is no > manpower devoted to achieving what you want right now. as I understood it he wasn't really criticising JACK for being what it is, he was pointing out that basic audio doesn't work well (in linux) and that unless that's fixed the linux would not be accepted as (part of) audio solution. Which might or might not be true - e.g. (AFAIK) for studios you just need small set of apps and don't care about whether general-user apps play nice. erik

22 years, 7 months

Re: [linux-audio-dev] Re: image problem [was Re: [Alsa-devel] help for a levelmeter]

by Patrick Shirkey

Peter wrote: >On Tuesday 22 Oct 2002 17:42, Paul Winkler wrote: >> On Tue, Oct 22, 2002 at 11:14:52AM +0100, Steve Harris wrote: >> > I can't answer this properly, but there is some issue to with mmap >mode I >> > believe. It is a very small number of cards that dont work. >> >>> We should compile a list of them, and maybe put it in the JACK FAQ. >> >> --PW >I'd much rather have a list of current cards that work _well_ than a >lists of cards that don't. > >The current ALSA card list just says whether or not a card has a driver >(and the state of that driver). It doesn't indicate how well the card >is going to work. > >I don't want to have to learn about DSPs and stuff to be able to >identify a _good_ sound card. I've currently got a shortlist for my >next machine: > * MidiMan Delta Audiophile 2496 (Envy24) > * VideoLogic SonicFury OEM (CS4360) > * Creative SB PCI 128 (ES1371) > >I've read the specs and looked around various review sites. Nothing >anywhere tells me how well they're going to work. Or does it? Am I >failing to find some secret source of information? > >All these things just make life _easier_. I want to get on with >developing code, not wondering why my hardware isn't performing. I >don't _want_ to have to learn _that_ part of the system. Because I'll >only need to do it once: >when I spec the next machine. (The next time I spec a machine, >everything I found out last time will be out of date.) This is a good idea to have this support and you've picked the right thread for asking for it. Currently there are only a handful of people who have worked on the official ALSA docs. I have done 90% of the work myself. It's great I'm learning heaps in the process and will definitely think about how to make it possible to add the info you require. Unfortunately we don't often get success stories on the ALSA lists so we don't really know how well things work until someone says that it's broken :( As it is I have tried to provide a feedback inteface via the notes additions in the docs. So far it is being used but not as much as it could be. I guess it will just take time. You can lead a horse to water... Do you have a specific idea envisioned for how we could present the info more effectively or a way to make more people contribute their results? I'm listening. -- Patrick Shirkey - Boost Hardware Ltd. For the discerning hardware connoisseur Http://www.boosthardware.com Http://www.djcj.org - The Linux Audio Users guide ======================================== "Um...symbol_get and symbol_put... They're kindof like does anyone remember like get_symbol and put_symbol I think we used to have..." - Rusty Russell in his talk on the module subsystem

22 years, 7 months

Re: [linux-audio-dev] [ann] unmatched - a LADSPA amp tone

by Stefan Nitschke

>From: Steve Harris <S.W.Harris(a)ecs.soton.ac.uk> >On Tue, Oct 22, 2002 at 09:38:26 +0200, Tim Goetze wrote: > > the problem with converging IIR is that either the IIR or the > > converging algorithm or both don't like impulses that are too > > lively. the converger will simply fall dead when it sees an > > exponentially decaying white noise impulse. it makes sense, > >I don't understand why. Is it just beacuse the kernle is a bit too long to >be stable, or is there someting more to it than that? > When the converger tries to find the best coefficients by using a recursive error minimation i dont wonder that i may fail here. A IIR is nothing else as a differential equation solver. As a result you can only approximate kind of periodic signals i guess. Correct me if i am wrong, its quite a long time ago since i learned about linear system theorie and IIR stuff... - Stefan _________________________________________________________________ Surf the Web without missing calls! Get MSN Broadband. http://resourcecenter.msn.com/access/plans/freeactivation.asp

22 years, 7 months

Re: [linux-audio-dev] Re: The Image (usablity) problem from a Musicians point of view

by John Lazzaro

> Lea Anthony <stonekeeper(a)stonekeeper.freeserve.co.uk> writes > > Wishing for people to write native apps for a system with no market is > like wishing Windows would die. It might happen, but it's not bloody > likely. However, if you port a novel Linux application to Windows or OS X, the users on those platforms are quite happy to add the free tool to their workflow if it helps them do their work better. This is how the GNU project got its start, after all -- free, usable software that ran on popular commercial UNIX platforms. Sfront has taken this route -- most of my users are non-Linux users now. I think there's a migration path to Linux that could be based on this strategy -- if the free software community comes up with a set of audio content-creation tools that Windows or OS X users are willing to use as a complete workflow, the case for switching over to Linux to run the workflow more efficiently (or to avoid OS license upgrade fees, etc) is easier to make. Certainly on the CLI side, many people started out at Cygwin users to run emacs and gcc and TeX under Windows, and then decided to add a dual-boot option for Linux to get "the real thing." ------------------------------------------------------------------------- John Lazzaro -- Research Specialist -- CS Division -- EECS -- UC Berkeley lazzaro [at] cs [dot] berkeley [dot] edu www.cs.berkeley.edu/~lazzaro -------------------------------------------------------------------------

22 years, 7 months

RE: [linux-audio-dev] Re: image problem [was Re: [Alsa-devel] hel p for a levelmeter]

by STEFFL, ERIK (SBCSI)

> -----Original Message----- > From: Joshua Haberman [mailto:joshua@haberman.com] > > "Paul Davis" <paul(a)linuxaudiosystems.com> wrote: > > >So why, having studied the docs, am I completely stumped > with jack? It > > >refuses to play. I don't consider any solution based on a > piece of software > > >_I_ can't operate suitable for general use. > > > > JACK *isn't* intended for general use, and i get tired of > suggestions > > that it should be. there are lots of people working on solutions for > > "general use". JACK is intended for people who are serious about > > audio. > > I don't understand this attitude. I think it hinders > acceptance of JACK > (even for serious audio) and it contributes to further > fragmentation of > the Linux audio world. > > If you would rather everyday applications not use JACK, what > should they > be using instead? OSS is simple but limited, and spotty > drivers/implementations make it difficult to write robust > code. It will > soon be available only through emulation. It forces use of > the blocking > model. > > ALSA is very powerful and complete, but very complex. This will make <rant> it is also pretty much useless for general users. I mean if I can't listen to mp3 and browse the web at the same time ... (without sound servers which were discussed recently and as far as I can tell the general consensus is that they are bad and not to be used). Is there any rationale for the blocking behaviour? I mean I can't imagine situation where I would want playback to wait for another playback to finish and play sound then... either report error (device busy) or just ignore the sound... (or do the mixing) as far as I know this behaviour is not configurable - am I mistaken? (rarely I wish to be proven wrong so much:-) maybe this is not the best place for a rant but since we are discussing the acceptance of linux in audio world, here's my own experience. except of the blocking of sounds (the problem mentioned above) I am quite dissapointed by functionality of linux drivers I have tried, I have sb live platinum and (last time I checked): - front panel midi connectors do not work - game port midi functionality - sort of works, works OK with one keyboard but does not work with another midi controller (yamaha drum toy) (both work fine with front panel midi under windows) - front panel RCA connectors do not work - infra red sensor probably does not work (at least I wasn't able to make it work and I got no responses on lasa mailing list) </rant> erik

22 years, 7 months

[linux-audio-dev] Re: The Image (usablity) problem from a Musicians point of view

by Benno Senoner

> I don't know if the 3 points I've made have already been done, I'm new > to LAD, but they are important. Especially 3 as it gives a "migration > path" to existing windoze users. I know, I know, DirectX plugins are > written against Microsoft libraries, but how come mplayer on Linux can > use windows binaries (codecs) in it's system? Could the same not be >done >for audio? Surely it's the same principle? (Media data input, process, >media data ouput). Yes this should be possibile since both DirectX and VST are documented APIs. Form a latency point of view, I am not sure how this works out, but I believe the process() calls do not involve windows specific stuff so the plugs should perform quite well on a low latency kernel. Of course almost any DX, VST plugin do have a GUI. The ideal would be letting wine to display the GUI part while executing the process() stuff directly. I am not a wine expert so I cannot say how difficult this can be, but given that wine is able to execute beasts like Word and Excel I guess it has not problems with plugin GUIs. Indeed the ability to run DX and VST on Linux would be a good selling point for pro audio on linux but there is still lot to do in the fields of basic audio platform infrastructure and integration of the different components. cheers, Benno

22 years, 7 months

[linux-audio-dev] Re: latencytest problem with 2.5.44-mm2

by Benno Senoner

Hello Joern, Are you using ALSA right ? Perhaps an OSS emulation problem of ALSA ? I recall that I got grabled sound (even lockups) on the SBLive when using 128byte fragments (seemed like a driver or hardware problem). What kind of audio card do you have ? Anyway latencytest is completely outdated (does not compile cleanly on newer distros due to wrong includes etc). Now that I have some spare time again (seems unbelievable but I were able to finish my university degree in CS just a month before turning 30 ... better late than newer as we use to say :-) ) I'll try to rewrite some of the useful tools including latencytest, adding alsa support and new stress test methods and like one guy of the list asked , the possibility to chose the disks (or the path) on which perform the disk i/o tests. Anyway low latency came useful in my thesis since a part of the project consisted in a real time laser scanner that tracks a laser spot that you move over the object you like to scan that is filmed by two cameras that permit a 3D reconstruction of the surface. (at 25 FPS we have processing cycles of 40msec so it is quite easy for the low lat patch to keep up since there is basically no disk i/o present during the scanning activity). cheers, Benno. --- You wrote: i ran latencytest on kernel 2.5.44-mm2 yesterday, and the audio was totally garbled, just barely recognizable. strangely, i could aplay somesound.wav simultaneously, and it sounded ok. (except for dropouts here and there.) might it be an oss problem ? i'm stumped. i habe never seen this before with the 2.5 kernels. regards, jörn

22 years, 7 months

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Linux-audio-dev