29 Aug
2012
29 Aug
'12
2:20 p.m.
- sorry for crossposting -
Hi all
The winners of the Hydrogen Drumkit Contest have just been announced on the
Hydrogen site !
Check out the announcement
<http://www.hydrogen-music.org/hcms/node/2327>and listen to the demo
songs of the submitted drumkits.
A big thank you to all the people that submitted a drumkit and to the jury !
Enjoy :-)
The Hydrogen team
31 Aug
31 Aug
2:06 a.m.
New subject: Kontakt sampler format (and others like EXS24) - Once again free samples, this time more uplifting
Hello lists,
(if you are note exited by freeing sampled instruments but only by the technical aspect
skip to the line "But back to the topic:")
I am doing a research and mail marathon right now. Again I am searching for more or less
open source and free samples but this time I decided to browse more "free
things" website archives.
So far I found a handful of, more or less useful and nice, instruments or
"noise" packs with a good license.
Even better is that I try to contact as many instrument developers as possible per mail,
asking them to release their already free-of-cost instrument under a more open license. Or
if the license may be open alreaday but is unclear (sample licenses can be quite confusing
if you press them into the Creative Commons frame) I asked for clarification.
Surprisingly already several people answered which resulted in the freedom of some packs
and, best of all, the producer with one of the closest and permissive statements (but
otherwise very good) of all contacted me very quickly and said they want their free
instruments as open as possible and the closed licenses were a misunderstanding, only for
their fully commercial instruments.
I'll release a list with download links on my blog nilsgey.de in the near future. If
the linux audio community has enough webspace we could even mirror most of them. Part of
my mails is always the permission to redistribute and mirror download. You don't
believe how many say "do what you want with these samples, but you are only allowed
to download them exactly here. If tommorow this website will be gone there is no legal way
to get the samples anymore"
But back to the topic:
Sadly many of those instruments are in .nki or .nk* format which is the Kontakt Player or
Kontakt Something Fullversion format.
The wave samples are (often? by design?) there as plain files, but it is hard work to
guess how they should be arranged and what is needed. As far as I know the kontakt format
has more features, such as scripting, than sfz, which is currently the "Linux sample
flagship". I hope I am wrong here.
I know there are sample converter programs (for Windows) like Chicken Translator or the
"W. Grabowski Extreme Sample Converter". I have used them and even simple
conversions like sf2 to gig, or gig to sfz were always a bit odd or plain wrong. They have
menu entries for Kontakt and EXS24 (the Apple Logic Sampler format, you see that quite
often as well) but I don't believe that will actually produce accurate conversions.
Is there someone who knows more about these formats? Even if it is not possible to write a
sampler engine (it would not be the first [partly]binary, closed format loaded by open
source software) maybe there is at least a way to get all the needed information to
convert/correct them by hand or individual scripts.
For the more pragmatical, non-100%-idealist people, that would be a major step in general
Linux Audio mainstream direction. For the last years and currently many instruments are
samples which seem to be interpreted data (I hope I am not wrong here). This is not the
windows-VST problem but actually solvable without recompiling and re-releasing even the
major commercial instruments.
so far...
Nils
P.S. I got some packs which are just wave files or the nki files seem to trigger just
one-shot samples. I thought about creating .sfz files for them. Any help would be welcome.
I already have a github repository up with two projects (WIP), so contact me here per mail
or IRC #lad if you are interested.
11:03 a.m.
New subject: Kontakt sampler format (and others like EXS24)
Thanks for taking the initiative on this. The lack of high quality
samples usable on a Linux system has been quite a problem.
John
1:58 p.m.
New subject: Kontakt sampler format (and others like EXS24)
On Fri, Aug 31, 2012 at 5:12 AM, John Rigg <ladev(a)jrigg.co.uk> wrote:
Thanks for taking the initiative on this. The lack of
high quality
samples usable on a Linux system has been quite a problem.
this is subtle, but i'd like to point out that the problem is actually
slightly more specific than that. from my perspective, it is really the
lack of high quality samples usable outside of the sample playback engine
with which they were originally associated. if you don't have kontakt, you
can't play kontakt sample libraries regardless of the platform you're on.
but yay for anyone working to change this situation.
2:03 p.m.
New subject: Kontakt sampler format (and others like EXS24)
On Fri, 31 Aug 2012 07:58:07 -0400
Paul Davis <paul(a)linuxaudiosystems.com> wrote:
On Fri, Aug 31, 2012 at 5:12 AM, John Rigg
<ladev(a)jrigg.co.uk> wrote:
The direct and naive solution would be a reversed engineered kontakt sample engine, yes.
Very naive.
Nils
Thanks for taking the initiative on this. The
lack of high quality
samples usable on a Linux system has been quite a problem.
this is subtle, but i'd like to point out that the problem is actually
slightly more specific than that. from my perspective, it is really the
lack of high quality samples usable outside of the sample playback engine
with which they were originally associated. if you don't have kontakt, you
can't play kontakt sample libraries regardless of the platform you're on.
but yay for anyone working to change this situation. 
3:43 p.m.
New subject: Kontakt sampler format (and others like EXS24)
On Fri, Aug 31, 2012 at 1:03 PM, Nils <list(a)nilsgey.de> wrote:
The direct and naive solution would be a reversed
engineered kontakt
sample engine, yes.
Very naive.
The community could approach NI and ask if they're intrested in supporting
a Linux version of Kontact? I volunteer to write the email, and if they
laugh then what harm done...
Opinions?
3:45 p.m.
New subject: Kontakt sampler format (and others like EXS24)
On Fri, Aug 31, 2012 at 9:43 AM, Harry van Haaren <harryhaaren(a)gmail.com> wrote:
On Fri, Aug 31, 2012 at 1:03 PM, Nils
<list(a)nilsgey.de> wrote:
I am sure it has been done before... I'd be first in line up to sign
up if they did do it (assuming my current Kontakt license would
transfer).
--
Brett W. McCoy -- http://www.brettwmccoy.com
------------------------------------------------------------------------
"In the rhythm of music a secret is hidden; If I were to divulge it,
it would overturn the world."
-- Jelaleddin Rumi
The direct and naive solution would be a reversed engineered kontakt
sample engine, yes.
Very naive.
The community could approach NI and ask if they're intrested in supporting a
Linux version of Kontact? I volunteer to write the email, and if they laugh
then what harm done... 
3:54 p.m.
New subject: Kontakt sampler format (and others like EXS24)
Hello Harry!
Yes, I am pretty sure, that it had been done before. But I can't remember
when exactly. I suppose it's always wrth a trial. You will never know, if you
don't say a word. Perhaps we could get together sort of a friendly petition or
at laest a list of interested parties and attach it to the mail,so they can
have an idea of how many people - for a start - would be interested in this.
Just as an extra factual argument. I am almost sure, that if they agree to a
reverse engineered module or additional coding help from our community some
people would pipe up. I'm ashamed to say, I won't be amongst them and thus
shouldn't really have said it. Though I'm still pretty sure about it.
Warm regards
Julien
----------------------------------------
http://juliencoder.de/nama/music.html
4:47 p.m.
New subject: Kontakt sampler format (and others like EXS24)
On Fri, 31 Aug 2012 14:43:13 +0100
Harry van Haaren <harryhaaren(a)gmail.com> wrote:
The community could approach NI and ask if they're
intrested in
supporting a Linux version of Kontact? I volunteer to write the
email, and if they laugh then what harm done...
The community could also ask them to make sure that it works well with
wineasio that more or less turns it into a jack application. Many of
their other apps runs perfectly, but kontakt is somewhat of a dog.
But the big problem imo is content. LS is already a kick ass sampler,
but there is simply not all that much content around for it.
---
Joakim
4:57 p.m.
New subject: Kontakt sampler format (and others like EXS24)
On 08/31/2012 04:47 PM, Joakim Hernberg wrote:
On Fri, 31 Aug 2012 14:43:13 +0100
Harry van Haaren<harryhaaren(a)gmail.com> wrote:
afaik the openoctave team has a script which converts the Kontakt VSL
orchestra sample library to SFZ.
\r
The community could approach NI and ask if
they're intrested in
supporting a Linux version of Kontact? I volunteer to write the
email, and if they laugh then what harm done...
The community could also ask them to make sure that it works well with
wineasio that more or less turns it into a jack application. Many of
their other apps runs perfectly, but kontakt is somewhat of a dog.
But the big problem imo is content. LS is already a kick ass sampler,
but there is simply not all that much content around for it.
--- 
2 Sep
2 Sep
12:26 a.m.
New subject: Kontakt sampler format (and others like EXS24)
Hi Joakim,
On 31.08.2012, at 16:47, Joakim Hernberg <jbh(a)alchemy.lu> wrote:
The community could also ask them to make sure that it
works well with
wineasio that more or less turns it into a jack application. Many of
their other apps runs perfectly, but kontakt is somewhat of a dog.
Sure, just let me know what kind of issue there are. As Paul already mentioned there is
also native Jack support in all NI apps. Since Jack is not very common in the Windows
world it is probably untested and/or not working all at.
Best,
Florian
12:47 a.m.
New subject: Kontakt sampler format (and others like EXS24)
On Sat, Sep 1, 2012 at 6:26 PM, Florian Schirmer
<florian.schirmer(a)native-instruments.de> wrote:
Sure, just let me know what kind of issue there are.
As Paul already
mentioned there is also native Jack support in all NI apps. Since Jack is
not very common in the Windows world it is probably untested and/or not
working all at.
I'm using Kontakt on Windows... are you saying it will support Jack,
or just the OSX version (would be great to control it via Netjack from
my Linux workstation, it works fairly well with MIDI clock sent from
Ardour on Linux)
--
Brett W. McCoy -- http://www.brettwmccoy.com
------------------------------------------------------------------------
"In the rhythm of music a secret is hidden; If I were to divulge it,
it would overturn the world."
-- Jelaleddin Rumi
31 Aug
31 Aug
4:57 p.m.
New subject: Kontakt sampler format (and others like EXS24)
On Fri, 31 Aug 2012 14:43:13 +0100
Harry van Haaren <harryhaaren(a)gmail.com> wrote:
On Fri, Aug 31, 2012 at 1:03 PM, Nils
<list(a)nilsgey.de> wrote:
Regardless if it was done or in the past or not It would be very nice of you to write an
email to them.
Nils
The direct and naive solution would be a reversed
engineered kontakt
sample engine, yes.
Very naive.
The community could approach NI and ask if they're intrested in supporting
a Linux version of Kontact? I volunteer to write the email, and if they
laugh then what harm done...
Opinions?
4:59 p.m.
New subject: Kontakt sampler format (and others like EXS24)
On 08/31/2012 04:56 PM, Nils wrote:
On Fri, 31 Aug 2012 14:43:13 +0100
Harry van Haaren<harryhaaren(a)gmail.com> wrote:
Maybe an email from linuxaudio.org works better? Someone who speaks in
name of an organization?
\r
On Fri, Aug 31, 2012 at 1:03 PM,
Nils<list(a)nilsgey.de> wrote:
Regardless if it was done or in the past or not It would be very nice of you to write an
email to them. The direct and naive solution would be a reversed
engineered kontakt
sample engine, yes.
Very naive.
The community could approach NI and ask if they're intrested in supporting
a Linux version of Kontact? I volunteer to write the email, and if they
laugh then what harm done...
Opinions?
5:27 p.m.
New subject: Kontakt sampler format (and others like EXS24)
On Fri, Aug 31, 2012 at 10:59 AM, rosea.grammostola <
rosea.grammostola(a)gmail.com> wrote:
On 08/31/2012 04:56 PM, Nils wrote:
NI already have inhouse versions of many of their software tools for Linux,
and they use it in house for some development. I met with them in person
several years ago when I was teaching in Berlin. They are quite big
technical fans of JACK and of Linux, but they (probably correctly) see a
tiny, largely irrelevant market for native releases for these platforms.
They spent quite a bit of effort to get their standalone versions on OS X
to talk to JACK if it is installed, but chose not to document this because
hardly anyone wants it and when they do, they figure it out for themselves.
A lot of people (even on this list) don't understand the extent to which
*supporting* a piece of software is often a far bigger cost than the
initial development, and providing support for a platform with very few
users is an issue for companies who want their customer service reputation
to be very good (as NI does). It doesn't work for companies like this to
just release something "into the wild" and forget about it.
--p
On Fri, 31 Aug 2012 14:43:13 +0100
Harry van Haaren<harryhaaren(a)gmail.com> wrote:
On Fri, Aug 31, 2012 at 1:03 PM, Nils<list(a)nilsgey.de> wrote:
Maybe an email from linuxaudio.org works better? Someone who speaks in
name of an organization?
The direct and naive solution would be a reversed engineered kontakt
Regardless if it was done or in the past or not It would be very nice of
you to write an email to them.
sample engine, yes.
Very naive.
The community could approach NI and ask if they're intrested in
supporting
a Linux version of Kontact? I volunteer to write the email, and if they
laugh then what harm done...
Opinions?
5:36 p.m.
New subject: Kontakt sampler format (and others like EXS24)
On Fri, Aug 31, 2012 at 7:27 PM, Paul Davis wrote:
NI already have inhouse versions of many of their
software tools for Linux,
and they use it in house for some development. I met with them in person
several years ago when I was teaching in Berlin. They are quite big
technical fans of JACK and of Linux, but they (probably correctly) see a
tiny, largely irrelevant market for native releases for these platforms.
Interesting, because Pianoteq folks like JACK too (and started from
Linux version that was using JACK, AFAIK), but somehow they do manage
to maintain the Linux version. Probably at the cost of liking JACK?
Alexandre Prokoudine
http://libregraphicsworld.org
7:12 p.m.
New subject: Kontakt sampler format (and others like EXS24)
On Fri, Aug 31, 2012 at 4:27 PM, Paul Davis <paul(a)linuxaudiosystems.com>wrote;wrote:
A lot of people (even on this list) don't
understand the extent to which
*supporting* a piece of software is often a far bigger cost than the
initial development, and providing support for a platform with very few
users is an issue for companies who want their customer service reputation
to be very good (as NI does). It doesn't work for companies like this to
just release something "into the wild" and forget about it.
That's a fair point. And also one I'm not in a place to make : I'm not
currently doing any software support.
Still I do feel that if there could be "an interaction" whereby the linux
audio community gets enough info to use Kontact samples natively in JACK
that would be awesome.
With risk of talking about what I'm not an expert in: I could see some kind
of binary .so distributed by NI that houses the Kontact internals, with a
header file describing how to use it. If this could be adapted into the
shape of a LinuxSampler engine, then win-win right?
-NI don't have to do support: the only "customer" for thier .so is a
developer, so support isn't even the right word.
-LinuxSampler is an established project: why repeat all that has already
been done?
-Kontact usage goes up (strengthens brand name.. etc etc) and I'll buy
samples from NI.
Again intrested on views... also from the Linux sampler guys if such an
endeavor would even be possible given that the politics work out.
-Harry
1 Sep
1 Sep
3:56 a.m.
New subject: Kontakt sampler format (and others like EXS24)
On Sat, September 1, 2012 3:12 am, Harry van Haaren wrote:
On Fri, Aug 31, 2012 at 4:27 PM, Paul Davis
<paul(a)linuxaudiosystems.com>wrote;wrote:
I think Paul has already framed this. They are not comfortable putting it
out in the wild unless they are sure that their quality standards will be
met. In that case they will need to have a support agreement with the LS
guys and that means Christian et al will have to work, which means unless
they can get NI to pay them for their time they either have to work for
free or make enough money from the associated projects that gain by having
NI support.
Given that almost no one in this mailing list actually spends significant
amounts of money on Linux Audio Software that means they have to get
income from a much larger userbase and until we have definitive proof that
userbase is going to contribute income to the project the only thing
driving it forward is self motivation.
So, if we want projects like this to succeed we as a community have to be
prepared to make the effort to educate the wider market.
Which means everyone contributing to the global marketing effort...
So, get our your blogs, your tweet decks, your facebooks, your pinterests,
your myspace and your diggs, start writing keyword rich content and
linking it back to our community landing pages, flood the forums with
links, and even gasp *pay* real money for advertising in real physical
media like magazines and trade journals and then let's see how big our
global userbase really is.
As it stands there is a push towards NAMM in January 2013 but compared to
the rest of the noise out there it will be easily lost in the crowd if we
don't put in the time to capitalise on it. Those people who are in the
States and have some spare time and resources might want to consider
getting involved in a grassroots education campaign for the NAMM
conference.
There are several companies that are going to be there this year so having
a side event or even pooling resources to make a theme might raise some
eyebrows in a good way.
One thing we have going for us is that the products we make are definitely
high end so that is a good place to start if we want to create a marketing
theme and educational campaign based around it.
--
Patrick Shirkey
Boost Hardware Ltd
A lot of people (even on this list) don't
understand the extent to which
*supporting* a piece of software is often a far bigger cost than the
initial development, and providing support for a platform with very few
users is an issue for companies who want their customer service
reputation
to be very good (as NI does). It doesn't work for companies like this to
just release something "into the wild" and forget about it.
That's a fair point. And also one I'm not in a place to make : I'm not
currently doing any software support.
Still I do feel that if there could be "an interaction" whereby the linux
audio community gets enough info to use Kontact samples natively in JACK
that would be awesome.
With risk of talking about what I'm not an expert in: I could see some
kind
of binary .so distributed by NI that houses the Kontact internals, with a
header file describing how to use it. If this could be adapted into the
shape of a LinuxSampler engine, then win-win right?
-NI don't have to do support: the only "customer" for thier .so is a
developer, so support isn't even the right word.
-LinuxSampler is an established project: why repeat all that has already
been done?
-Kontact usage goes up (strengthens brand name.. etc etc) and I'll buy
samples from NI.
Again intrested on views... also from the Linux sampler guys if such an
endeavor would even be possible given that the politics work out.
-Harry
11:35 p.m.
New subject: Kontakt sampler format (and others like EXS24)
Hi Patrick,
well put, i think this pretty much reflects the current situation. I'm definitely open
to discuss with the community what potential the linux market might have. Once you have
your stuff together please get in touch with me.
Best,
Florian
On 01.09.2012, at 03:56, Patrick Shirkey <pshirkey(a)boosthardware.com> wrote:
On Sat, September 1, 2012 3:12 am, Harry van Haaren wrote:
On Fri, Aug 31, 2012 at 4:27 PM, Paul Davis
<paul(a)linuxaudiosystems.com>wrote;wrote:
I think Paul has already framed this. They are not comfortable putting it
out in the wild unless they are sure that their quality standards will be
met. In that case they will need to have a support agreement with the LS
guys and that means Christian et al will have to work, which means unless
they can get NI to pay them for their time they either have to work for
free or make enough money from the associated projects that gain by having
NI support.
Given that almost no one in this mailing list actually spends significant
amounts of money on Linux Audio Software that means they have to get
income from a much larger userbase and until we have definitive proof that
userbase is going to contribute income to the project the only thing
driving it forward is self motivation.
So, if we want projects like this to succeed we as a community have to be
prepared to make the effort to educate the wider market.
Which means everyone contributing to the global marketing effort...
So, get our your blogs, your tweet decks, your facebooks, your pinterests,
your myspace and your diggs, start writing keyword rich content and
linking it back to our community landing pages, flood the forums with
links, and even gasp *pay* real money for advertising in real physical
media like magazines and trade journals and then let's see how big our
global userbase really is.
As it stands there is a push towards NAMM in January 2013 but compared to
the rest of the noise out there it will be easily lost in the crowd if we
don't put in the time to capitalise on it. Those people who are in the
States and have some spare time and resources might want to consider
getting involved in a grassroots education campaign for the NAMM
conference.
There are several companies that are going to be there this year so having
a side event or even pooling resources to make a theme might raise some
eyebrows in a good way.
One thing we have going for us is that the products we make are definitely
high end so that is a good place to start if we want to create a marketing
theme and educational campaign based around it.
--
Patrick Shirkey
Boost Hardware Ltd
_______________________________________________
Linux-audio-dev mailing list
Linux-audio-dev(a)lists.linuxaudio.org
http://lists.linuxaudio.org/listinfo/linux-audio-dev A lot of people (even on this list) don't
understand the extent to which
*supporting* a piece of software is often a far bigger cost than the
initial development, and providing support for a platform with very few
users is an issue for companies who want their customer service
reputation
to be very good (as NI does). It doesn't work for companies like this to
just release something "into the wild" and forget about it.
That's a fair point. And also one I'm not in a place to make : I'm not
currently doing any software support.
Still I do feel that if there could be "an interaction" whereby the linux
audio community gets enough info to use Kontact samples natively in JACK
that would be awesome.
With risk of talking about what I'm not an expert in: I could see some
kind
of binary .so distributed by NI that houses the Kontact internals, with a
header file describing how to use it. If this could be adapted into the
shape of a LinuxSampler engine, then win-win right?
-NI don't have to do support: the only "customer" for thier .so is a
developer, so support isn't even the right word.
-LinuxSampler is an established project: why repeat all that has already
been done?
-Kontact usage goes up (strengthens brand name.. etc etc) and I'll buy
samples from NI.
Again intrested on views... also from the Linux sampler guys if such an
endeavor would even be possible given that the politics work out.
-Harry 
2:34 p.m.
New subject: Kontakt sampler format (and others like EXS24)
2012/8/31 Harry van Haaren <harryhaaren(a)gmail.com>om>:
The community could approach NI and ask if they're
intrested in supporting a
Linux version of Kontact?
1. they won't
2. if they do, kontakt still won't be open source
3. if linuxsampler would support the kontakt format, the format would
change (this already happend in kontakt 4.1)
conclusion:
1. don't use the kontakt sampler (or other proprietary sw)
2. don't buy kontakt samples
3. support free, libre sample libraries
4. create free, libre sample libraries
this appears as the most effective stategie and long time solution
links:
http://sso.mattiaswestlund.net/
http://freepats.zenvoid.org/
--
E.R.
2:54 p.m.
New subject: Kontakt sampler format (and others like EXS24)
On Sat, Sep 1, 2012 at 4:34 PM, Emanuel Rumpf wrote:
3. if linuxsampler would support the kontakt format,
the format would
change (this already happend in kontakt 4.1)
And this observation is based on what exactly?
conclusion:
1. don't use the kontakt sampler (or other proprietary sw)
And stop making music.
2. don't buy kontakt samples
What else is there?
3. support free, libre sample libraries
Where are they?
4. create free, libre sample libraries
Would you like to start producing some?
P.S. Am I the only one who finds it weird to follow the same thread in
two lists?
Alexandre Prokoudine
http://libregraphicsworld.org
2:58 p.m.
New subject: Kontakt sampler format (and others like EXS24)
Please note that the following may sound very
sarcastic, but actually it is not (except the part about my bank
account). I expect this type of work that needs to be done to develop
and create a modern, state-of-the art sample lib like Orchestral
Strings or a Choir incl. wordbuilder from 'scratch', or from our
current Open Source knowledge.
The timespans may be horribly off, but I suspect in the end they would
be longer than speculated here, not shorter.
Am Sat, 1 Sep 2012 14:34:19 +0200
schrieb Emanuel Rumpf <xbran(a)web.de>de>:
--
4. create free, libre sample libraries
this appears as the most effective stategie and long time solution
It is. So let's begin.
I am willing to do the lead here. But I need someone who pays me and a
small team of developers and recording engineers for about 3 years.
I will drop everything what I am doing right now and concentrate fully
on this job. Whoever pays please write me a private mail and I'll send
you my contact and bank account data.
More expenses: ~50 musicians for a shorter timespan (maybe a few weeks
or months, taking into account that there is maybe no actual knowledge
of the recording process for this task so we need to experiment more) to
do the actual recordings, recording equipment, computers, workspace and
renting places/studio to record.
The first months will be only research and design, then two
years you would not see anything except changes in git account because
we need to develop an open sampling format and a GPL engine/sample
host. And then the recording and post processing.
Given that this would be a GPL and CC-By (or similar) project, already
paid in advanced, mouth-to-mouth propaganda about a zero-cost and open
source lib will do all the marketing.
My alternative plan would be to do 10 to 20 years of long-time research
on physical modelling of instruments, instrument groups and an A.I.
musical interpreter.
Longer timespan, but in the end everything real and unreal will be
possible and the sampling-era will be over.
2 Sep
2 Sep
2:06 a.m.
New subject: Kontakt sampler format (and others like EXS24)
On Sat, Sep 1, 2012 at 1:34 PM, Emanuel Rumpf <xbran(a)web.de> wrote:
conclusion:
1. don't use the kontakt sampler (or other proprietary sw)
2. don't buy kontakt samples
3. support free, libre sample libraries
4. create free, libre sample libraries
this appears as the most effective stategie and long time solution
Although I admire your determination for and devotion to FLOSS, I'm not
currently satisfied with the tools and especially instruments (real
instrument "recreations" or electronic).
I do not mean to offend the wonderful efforts done by the community
already: and I would like to point out that there are significant projects
that I use to make music.
But in the end of the day: I have to put more effort into getting the sound
I want using linux tools than Mac or Win. Although its very honourable to
only support FLOSS, I also want to make music that sounds *great* not just
*good*. If paying for instruments like Modartt's
Pianoteq<http://www.pianoteq.com/>m/>,
then I'll do that. It sounds *wonderful*, not like a 90's MIDI Dance piano.
With that said, I'll get back to reading the rest of this thread :)
-Harry
1 Sep
1 Sep
11:44 p.m.
New subject: Kontakt sampler format (and others like EXS24)
Hi Harry,
i'm curious, what exactly would be the linux version of Kontakt? Kontakt VST for
Linux? Standalone? DSSI? LV2?
What is necessary to cover 95% of the users?
Thanks,
Florian
On 31.08.2012, at 15:43, Harry van Haaren <harryhaaren(a)gmail.com> wrote:
On Fri, Aug 31, 2012 at 1:03 PM, Nils
<list(a)nilsgey.de> wrote:
The direct and naive solution would be a reversed engineered kontakt sample engine, yes.
Very naive.
The community could approach NI and ask if they're intrested in supporting a Linux
version of Kontact? I volunteer to write the email, and if they laugh then what harm
done...
Opinions?
_______________________________________________
Linux-audio-dev mailing list
Linux-audio-dev(a)lists.linuxaudio.org
http://lists.linuxaudio.org/listinfo/linux-audio-dev
--
Florian Schirmer
Vice President of Engineering
Tel +49-30-611035-1825
Fax +49-30-611035-2825
florian.schirmer(a)native-instruments.de
NATIVE INSTRUMENTS GmbH
Schlesische Str. 29-30
10997 Berlin, Germany
http://www.native-instruments.com
***
KOMPLETE 8 ULTIMATE - the premium NI producer collection
=> http://www.native-instruments.com/komplete8
TRAKTOR KONTROL S2 - the professional 2.1 DJ system
=> http://www.native-instruments.com/s2
->>>>>> NATIVE INSTRUMENTS - The Future of Sound
<<<<<<-
Registergericht: Amtsgericht Charlottenburg
Registernummer: HRB 72458
UST.-ID.-Nr. DE 20 374 7747
Geschäftsführung: Daniel Haver (CEO), Mate Galic
2 Sep
2 Sep
12:24 a.m.
New subject: Kontakt sampler format (and others like EXS24)
Florian,
Standalone JACK client would work pretty much everywhere (the 95% you
mentioned), but workflow-wise a native VST would (arguably) be
preferable.
Alexandre Prokoudine
http://libregraphicsworld.org
On Sun, Sep 2, 2012 at 1:44 AM, Florian Schirmer
<florian.schirmer(a)native-instruments.de> wrote:
Hi Harry,
i'm curious, what exactly would be the linux version of Kontakt? Kontakt VST
for Linux? Standalone? DSSI? LV2?
What is necessary to cover 95% of the users?
Thanks,
Florian
2:48 a.m.
New subject: Kontakt sampler format (and others like EXS24)
On Sat, Sep 1, 2012 at 6:24 PM, Alexandre Prokoudine
<alexandre.prokoudine(a)gmail.com> wrote:
Standalone JACK client would work pretty much
everywhere (the 95% you
mentioned), but workflow-wise a native VST would (arguably) be
preferable.
As long as multiple instances can be run, a standalone Jack version
would be fine.
--
Brett W. McCoy -- http://www.brettwmccoy.com
------------------------------------------------------------------------
"In the rhythm of music a secret is hidden; If I were to divulge it,
it would overturn the world."
-- Jelaleddin Rumi
2:32 a.m.
New subject: Kontakt sampler format (and others like EXS24)
Hi Florian,
Thanks for taking the time to contribute to the conversation.
I'm agreement with Alexandre Prokudine, a standalone JACK application for
32 bit and 64bit would cover 95% of the target audience.
Perhaps it would not afford entirely to my intended workflow with Kontact
(namely using as a plugin in Ardour3): but it would be a huge step forward.
Although a native VST would also be possible: I (speaking for myself, as
its a delicate topic) feel it is a step in the wrong direction. I'm
currently using LV2 as my main plugin platform: DSSI and LADSPA days are
(again in my opinion) over, while VST's license makes it a bad choice. LV2
is still an emerging plugin standard: But since it is extensible and can be
backwards compatible: I feel it is the future. It does involve learning a
new plugin "language", and due to its extensibility I have found it quite
hard to learn. That said I'm not a wizard coder, so it could be my own
personal learning curve I'm up against. Or most likely a bit of both.
I feel I should mention that although I would like to spend time to attempt
to realize a Linux version of Kontact, I do not have extensive experience
in the field of sample engines or porting software. That said, I'm all up
for learning :)
Looking forward to a response, -Harry
On Sat, Sep 1, 2012 at 10:44 PM, Florian Schirmer <
florian.schirmer(a)native-instruments.de> wrote:
Hi Harry,
i'm curious, what exactly would be the linux version of Kontakt? Kontakt
VST for Linux? Standalone? DSSI? LV2?
What is necessary to cover 95% of the users?
Thanks,
Florian
On 31.08.2012, at 15:43, Harry van Haaren <harryhaaren(a)gmail.com> wrote:
On Fri, Aug 31, 2012 at 1:03 PM, Nils <list(a)nilsgey.de> wrote:
The direct and naive solution would be a reversed
engineered kontakt
sample engine, yes.
Very naive.
The community could approach NI and ask if they're intrested in supporting
a Linux version of Kontact? I volunteer to write the email, and if they
laugh then what harm done...
Opinions?
_______________________________________________
Linux-audio-dev mailing list
Linux-audio-dev(a)lists.linuxaudio.org
http://lists.linuxaudio.org/listinfo/linux-audio-dev
--
Florian Schirmer
Vice President of Engineering
Tel +49-30-611035-1825
Fax +49-30-611035-2825
florian.schirmer(a)native-instruments.de
NATIVE INSTRUMENTS GmbH
Schlesische Str. 29-30
10997 Berlin, Germany
http://www.native-instruments.com
***
KOMPLETE 8 ULTIMATE - the premium NI producer collection
=> http://www.native-instruments.com/komplete8
TRAKTOR KONTROL S2 - the professional 2.1 DJ system
=> http://www.native-instruments.com/s2
->>>>>> NATIVE INSTRUMENTS - The Future of Sound
<<<<<<-
Registergericht: Amtsgericht Charlottenburg
Registernummer: HRB 72458
UST.-ID.-Nr. DE 20 374 7747
Geschäftsführung: Daniel Haver (CEO), Mate Galic
_______________________________________________
Linux-audio-dev mailing list
Linux-audio-dev(a)lists.linuxaudio.org
http://lists.linuxaudio.org/listinfo/linux-audio-dev
2:59 a.m.
New subject: Kontakt sampler format (and others like EXS24)
Am Sat, 1 Sep 2012 23:44:38 +0200
schrieb Florian Schirmer <florian.schirmer(a)native-instruments.de>de>:
Hi Harry,
i'm curious, what exactly would be the linux version of Kontakt?
Kontakt VST for Linux? Standalone? DSSI? LV2?
What is necessary to cover 95% of the users?
Thanks,
Florian
Like others said before: DSSI is legacy and Linux VST is not a beloved
child because of the legal issues that might arise even with the now
free GPL headers.
Pianoteq did it Jack Standalone which is fine. But I think LV2 is even
better, not because out of convenience, since we have good
inter-application session management now, but because it fits more
usecases, therefore getting closer to the 95% mark:
A simple LV2 standalone host, which exist, 'converts' any LV2 plugin
into a JACK Standlone program without any additional latency, problems
etc.
But the reverse is not true afaik. You can't run Pianoteq as plugin
in Ardour or Qtractor because it is not one and end of the story.
But don't listen to me. The people who develop JACK standalone and LV2
plugins are fare more capable to give a real and technical answer, not
something from a simple user perspective.
Nils
1 Sep
1 Sep
3:39 p.m.
New subject: Kontakt sampler format (and others like EXS24)
2012/8/31 John Rigg <ladev(a)jrigg.co.uk>uk>:
Thanks for taking the initiative on this.
The lack of high quality samples usable on a Linux
system has been quite a problem.
What, more closely, is a "high quality" sample (today) ?
Is it very different, from what it was ten years ago ?
If yes, why did it fit formerly, but not today ?
Have our ears eventually improved within that time-period ?
--
E.R.
5:59 p.m.
New subject: Kontakt sampler format (and others like EXS24)
On Sat, Sep 01, 2012 at 03:39:27PM +0200, Emanuel Rumpf wrote:
2012/8/31 John Rigg:
What has changed is production budgets. Ten years ago there was more
money available for hiring real musicians along with places to record
them in and technical personnel to do it. If you're recording soundtracks
for TV or film you need samples that are good enough to replace the
real thing unless you're lucky enough to be working on the biggest
productions.
John
Thanks for taking the initiative on this.
The lack of high quality samples usable on a
Linux system has been quite a problem.
What, more closely, is a "high quality" sample (today) ?
Is it very different, from what it was ten years ago ?
If yes, why did it fit formerly, but not today ?
Have our ears eventually improved within that time-period ?
11:05 p.m.
New subject: Kontakt sampler format (and others like EXS24)
Hi Emanuel,
On 01.09.2012, at 15:39, Emanuel Rumpf <xbran(a)web.de> wrote:
2012/8/31 John Rigg <ladev(a)jrigg.co.uk>uk>:
The technical possibilities have changed quite a bit. In the early Kontakt days shipping a
library was all about sample file quality. The bigger (size file) the library was, the
better the quality. Today the quality almost entirely depends on the programming of the
instrument you buy together with the samples. The capabilities (scripting, effects, etc)
of the sample engines have completely changed the instrument building process.
At the same time the user interface got more and more important. You no longer need to be
a real hardcore musician to get decent results. Less parameters tailored to the current
instrument, presented in a much nicer way help the users to tweak the sounds to their
needs without the risk to mess the whole thing up.
So just looking at the sample not much has changed, but looking at the big picture then it
is a completely different world.
Best,
Florian
Thanks for taking the initiative on this.
The lack of high quality samples usable on a
Linux system has been quite a problem.
What, more closely, is a "high quality" sample (today) ?
Is it very different, from what it was ten years ago ?
If yes, why did it fit formerly, but not today ?
Have our ears eventually improved within that time-period ?
2 Sep
2 Sep
12:13 a.m.
New subject: Kontakt sampler format (and others like EXS24) - Once again free samples, this time more uplifting
Hi Nils,
On 31.08.2012, at 02:06, Nils <list(a)nilsgey.de> wrote:
Sadly many of those instruments are in .nki or .nk*
format which is the Kontakt Player or Kontakt Something Fullversion format.
The wave samples are (often? by design?) there as plain files, but it is hard work to
guess how they should be arranged and what is needed. As far as I know the kontakt format
has more features, such as scripting, than sfz, which is currently the "Linux sample
flagship". I hope I am wrong here.
No, you're correct. As i've written in my other mail to LAD, todays sample
libraries are much more than samples and the respective mapping on keys / velocity layers.
Scripting and all the advanced engine features is what makes the difference. Just
extracting the samples and mapping information from a Kontakt library will end up in very
disappointing results.
I know there are sample converter programs (for
Windows) like Chicken Translator or the "W. Grabowski Extreme Sample Converter".
I have used them and even simple conversions like sf2 to gig, or gig to sfz were always a
bit odd or plain wrong. They have menu entries for Kontakt and EXS24 (the Apple Logic
Sampler format, you see that quite often as well) but I don't believe that will
actually produce accurate conversions.
Some of those tools are using a library which we'll provide to read and write the
Kontakt format. Of course they can only convert the information supported by both the
source and the destination format.
Is there someone who knows more about these formats?
Even if it is not possible to write a sampler engine (it would not be the first
[partly]binary, closed format loaded by open source software) maybe there is at least a
way to get all the needed information to convert/correct them by hand or individual
scripts.
Besides the technical problem there is also a legal problem involved here. To protect the
IP of sample developers the instruments sold by 3rd party developers are encrypted.
My guess would be that using something like Autosampler to capture a certain snapshot of a
library and convert that into something that your favorite can read is by far the most
promising solution. But of course this depends on what you're looking for.
Best,
Florian
12:33 a.m.
New subject: Kontakt sampler format (and others like EXS24) - Once again free samples, this time more uplifting
On Sat, Sep 1, 2012 at 6:13 PM, Florian Schirmer
<florian.schirmer(a)native-instruments.de> wrote:
On 31.08.2012, at 02:06, Nils <list(a)nilsgey.de>
wrote:
Sadly many of those instruments are in .nki or .nk* format which is the
Kontakt Player or Kontakt Something Fullversion format.
The wave samples are (often? by design?) there as plain files, but it is
hard work to guess how they should be arranged and what is needed. As far as
I know the kontakt format has more features, such as scripting, than sfz,
which is currently the "Linux sample flagship". I hope I am wrong here.
No, you're correct. As i've written in my other mail to LAD, todays sample
libraries are much more than samples and the respective mapping on keys /
velocity layers. Scripting and all the advanced engine features is what
makes the difference. Just extracting the samples and mapping information
from a Kontakt library will end up in very disappointing results.
This is what we have discovered with free libraries like Sonatina --
the mappings are there but not much else (not even velocity layers),
many of the instruments don't even seem to work correctly with MIDI
CCs. They work OK in Linux Sampler, but are still pretty weak compared
to what is available commercially.
--
Brett W. McCoy -- http://www.brettwmccoy.com
------------------------------------------------------------------------
"In the rhythm of music a secret is hidden; If I were to divulge it,
it would overturn the world."
-- Jelaleddin Rumi
12:40 a.m.
New subject: Kontakt sampler format (and others like EXS24) - Once again free samples, this time more uplifting
On Sun, 2 Sep 2012 00:13:37 +0200
Florian Schirmer <florian.schirmer(a)native-instruments.de> wrote:
Besides the technical problem there is also a legal
problem involved here. To protect the IP of sample developers the instruments sold by 3rd
party developers are encrypted.
My guess would be that using something like Autosampler to capture a certain snapshot of
a library and convert that into something that your favorite can read is by far the most
promising solution. But of course this depends on what you're looking for.
Best,
Florian
What I am really looking for is an open format, of course I don't expect this from
you/your company :)
Since I do not own windows, kontakt or any kontakt instruments (which wouldn't make
sense without the OS in the beginning) my contact with Kontakt is only through freebies.
Since most of them are easy-to-record, one-shot (count=1 in sfz syntax) percussion samples
it is no problem to create a sfz by hand (or scripts) for the plain wave files, once you
have the license. This format is good enough for these type of home-made samples.
What I hope to learn, partly through finding out how the kontakt format works, is what the
format can do and how people create/record instruments for it or in other words: What is a
good recording basis for good instruments, since the programming and scripting part is
much more forgivable to errors.
This would be the complementary approach to my own: I am not a programmer but composer and
music theorist (Student Tonsatz, Musikhochschule Köln) so I don't think that much in
algorhithms and scripts but more from the music and instruments point of view and how to
elementarize and abstract the playing styles and only as second step how to script that.
When it comes to Kontakt itself a practical approach would be ok as well. If there is a
native kontakt version I can live with the closed eco system as well.
I have one important technical question for you: Is the Kontakt instrument format purely
interpreted or is there some binary executable in it? That is: Given that there is an
(official) host implementation native to Linux would all the instrument run at once or
would the sample authors be required to adjust their instruments and re-release?
If it is 100% interpreted and OS-independent then the market simply increases with Linux,
without additional effort for the 3rd party instrument developers.
Nils
http://www.nilsgey.de
12:44 a.m.
New subject: Kontakt sampler format (and others like EXS24) - Once again free samples, this time more uplifting
On Sat, Sep 1, 2012 at 3:13 PM, Florian Schirmer
<florian.schirmer(a)native-instruments.de> wrote:
I haven't heard of Autosampler until now, but this seems like an
appropriate time to bring up synthclone:
http://synthclone.googlecode.com/
... which has some similar features, is free, and has a plugin API
that allows a programmer to add missing functionality.
--
Devin Anderson
surfacepatterns (at) gmail (dot) com
blog - http://surfacepatterns.blogspot.com/
psinsights - http://psinsights.googlecode.com/
synthclone - http://synthclone.googlecode.com/
Is there
someone who knows more about these formats? Even if it is not
possible to write a sampler engine (it would not be the first
[partly]binary, closed format loaded by open source software) maybe there is
at least a way to get all the needed information to convert/correct them by
hand or individual scripts.
Besides the technical problem there is also a legal problem involved here.
To protect the IP of sample developers the instruments sold by 3rd party
developers are encrypted.
My guess would be that using something like Autosampler to capture a certain
snapshot of a library and convert that into something that your favorite can
read is by far the most promising solution. But of course this depends on
what you're looking for.
4420
days inactive
4424
days old
linux-audio-dev@lists.linuxaudio.org
34 comments
14 participants
participants (14)
-
Alexandre Prokoudine -
Brett McCoy -
Devin Anderson -
Emanuel Rumpf -
Florian Schirmer -
Harry van Haaren -
Joakim Hernberg -
John Rigg -
Julien Claassen -
Nils -
Patrick Shirkey -
Paul Davis -
rosea.grammostola -
Thijs van severen