22 Oct
2002
22 Oct
'02
1:21 p.m.
-----Original Message-----
From: Joshua Haberman [mailto:joshua@haberman.com]
"Paul Davis" <paul(a)linuxaudiosystems.com> wrote:
suggestions
<rant>
it is also pretty much useless for general users. I mean if I can't listen
to mp3 and browse the web at the same time ... (without sound servers which
were discussed recently and as far as I can tell the general consensus is
that they are bad and not to be used). Is there any rationale for the
blocking behaviour? I mean I can't imagine situation where I would want
playback to wait for another playback to finish and play sound then...
either report error (device busy) or just ignore the sound... (or do the
mixing) as far as I know this behaviour is not configurable - am I mistaken?
(rarely I wish to be proven wrong so much:-)
maybe this is not the best place for a rant but since we are discussing
the acceptance of linux in audio world, here's my own experience.
except of the blocking of sounds (the problem mentioned above) I am quite
dissapointed by functionality of linux drivers I have tried, I have sb live
platinum and (last time I checked):
- front panel midi connectors do not work
- game port midi functionality - sort of works, works OK with one keyboard
but does not work with another midi controller (yamaha drum toy) (both work
fine with front panel midi under windows)
- front panel RCA connectors do not work
- infra red sensor probably does not work (at least I wasn't able to make
it work and I got no responses on lasa mailing list)
</rant>
erik
>So why, having studied the docs, am I
completely stumped
with jack? It
>refuses to play. I don't consider any
solution based on a
piece of software
_I_
can't operate suitable for general use.
JACK *isn't* intended for general use, and i get tired of that it should be. there are lots of people
working on solutions for
"general use". JACK is intended for people who are serious about
audio.
I don't understand this attitude. I think it hinders
acceptance of JACK
(even for serious audio) and it contributes to further
fragmentation of
the Linux audio world.
If you would rather everyday applications not use JACK, what
should they
be using instead? OSS is simple but limited, and spotty
drivers/implementations make it difficult to write robust
code. It will
soon be available only through emulation. It forces use of
the blocking
model.
ALSA is very powerful and complete, but very complex. This will make 
22 Oct
22 Oct
1:33 p.m.
New subject: [linux-audio-dev] Re: image problem [was Re: [Alsa-devel] hel p for a levelmeter]
On Tue, 22 Oct 2002, STEFFL, ERIK (SBCSI) wrote:
except of the blocking of sounds (the problem
mentioned above) I am quite
dissapointed by functionality of linux drivers I have tried, I have sb live
platinum and (last time I checked):
Maybe you should buy cards from companies that care about Linux support.
You seem to be forgetting that most of the drivers are written by
volunteers working without documentation.
Taybin
--
http://www.piratesvsninjas.com
1:40 p.m.
New subject: [linux-audio-dev] Re: image problem [was Re: [Alsa-devel] hel p for a levelmeter]
[ re: OSS ]
to clarify: the "blocking model" that joshua was describing has
nothing to do with the "blocking behaviour" that you are describing.
jaroslav (aka "mr. alsa") has justified the block-on-open model by
reference to POSIX standards for the open system call. its a bit
debatable, but his point of view on it is at least as close to
standard POSIX behaviour as yours. applications can avoid this quite
easily using O_NONBLOCK in the OSS open call (or its equivalent for
ALSA), later followed by fcntl(2) if necessary.
i personally it would have been better to make open return EBUSY, but
the problem is that there is no flag for open(2) that says "block even
if busy", so with that design there is no way to get "block-on-open"
if desired.
> code. It will
> soon be available only through emulation. It forces use of
> the blocking
> model.
actually, it doesn't. nothing would stop the implementation of an OSS
driver/client for JACK.
ALSA is very
powerful and complete, but very complex. This will make
<rant>
it is also pretty much useless for general users. I mean if I can't listen
to mp3 and browse the web at the same time ... (without sound servers which
were discussed recently and as far as I can tell the general consensus is
that they are bad and not to be used). Is there any rationale for the
blocking behaviour? I mean I can't imagine situation where I would want except of the blocking of sounds (the problem
mentioned above) I am quite
dissapointed by functionality of linux drivers I have tried, I have sb live
platinum and (last time I checked):
"i am quite disappointed that a group of volunteers who work for no
monetary compensation have failed to implement all the features i
want. i haven't offered to pay them, but i really hope they get all
these features working really soon because its really irritating not
being able to ..."
--p
2:14 p.m.
New subject: [linux-audio-dev] Re: image problem [was Re: [Alsa-devel] hel p for a levelmeter]
There is this annoying kind of double talk in the OSS comunity: many people
just talk about how great OSS are and how every body should start using it
and all that kind of stuff, but as soon as you ask for some professional
behaviour from the apps and from the developers the only answer one gets is
"hey, we're just a bunch of volunteers, how can you be that arrogant and ask
this feature/effort from me?". The point is this: do people here wants LAD
to become professional or just stay a bunch of cool guys doing cools things
in their garage? Of course good support will mean some exchange of money at
a moment or another but you will never get any money from the public with
half working drivers and half done apps...
With all due respect,
Sebastien
----- Original Message -----
From: "Paul Davis" <paul(a)linuxaudiosystems.com>
To: <linux-audio-dev(a)music.columbia.edu>
Sent: Tuesday, October 22, 2002 5:39 PM
Subject: Re: [linux-audio-dev] Re: image problem [was Re: [Alsa-devel] hel p
for a levelmeter]
> except of the blocking of sounds (the problem
mentioned above) I am
quite
>dissapointed by functionality of linux drivers I
have tried, I have sb
live
platinum and
(last time I checked):
"i am quite disappointed that a group of volunteers who work for no
monetary compensation have failed to implement all the features i
want. i haven't offered to pay them, but i really hope they get all
these features working really soon because its really irritating not
being able to ..."
--p
2:39 p.m.
New subject: [linux-audio-dev] Re: image problem [was Re: [Alsa-devel] hel p for a levelmeter]
There is this annoying kind of double talk in the OSS
comunity: many people
just talk about how great OSS are and how every body should start using it
and all that kind of stuff, but as soon as you ask for some professional
behaviour from the apps and from the developers the only answer one gets is
whoa. professional behaviour from the apps is one thing. professional
behaviour from the developers implies an exchange of money.
"hey, we're just a bunch of volunteers, how
can you be that arrogant and ask
this feature/effort from me?".
let suppose you've ripped a copy of cubase sx from a warez site. you'd
like it do something that it doesn't do and you feel its very
important for your work. you write to steinberg and complain:
"i've been very unimpressed by the tempo options in cubase sx"
do you think these guys will even give the time of day to finish your
message? you're using free software, you pay nothing for whatever
support you get, and you expect us to treat you the way for profit
companies treat people who actually pay them?
The point is this: do people here wants LAD
to become professional or just stay a bunch of cool
guys doing cools things
in their garage?
i'll make you a deal. how about i start acting "professional" and have
you talk with 3 layers of support personnel before you come across
anyone who actually knows anything about my software, rather than
answer questions directly (and generally very promptly) myself?
Of course good support will mean some exchange of money at
a moment or another but you will never get any money
from the public with
half working drivers and half done apps...
with all due respect, i feel comfortable giving out this
response. several people here on the list know that i've been working
on linux audio apps more or less full time (albeit with euro-sized
summer vacations) for 3 years with no pay. i'm very lucky that i've
been able to do this, especially because it gives me a metaphorical
big stick :)
i have no problem with people giving me good useful feedback:
"i tried to get ardour to sync to MTC but it didn't work. it
seemed to keep drifting in and out of sync, and then just
gave up and stopped. i'd really like to see this work."
i have even less problem with people saying "here's some cash as a
contribution towards your work in fixing this". but showing up and
saying the equivalent of "i'm unimpressed by the sync facilities in
ardour" is rude and disrespectful.
--p
3:18 p.m.
New subject: [linux-audio-dev] Re: image problem
On Tue, 22 Oct 2002, Sebastien Metrot wrote:
There is this annoying kind of double talk in the OSS
comunity: many people
just talk about how great OSS are and how every body should start using it
and all that kind of stuff, but as soon as you ask for some professional
behaviour from the apps and from the developers the only answer one gets is
"hey, we're just a bunch of volunteers, how can you be that arrogant and ask
this feature/effort from me?". The point is this: do people here wants LAD
This is a fair question. First, "many people" might promote OSS, but that
doesn't mean unconditional surrender. ;) I mean, I was really quite
offended by Ivica's message where he proposed that JACK developers are
arrogant if they don't implement x and y. OSS or not, that's not very nice
considering how much free time we have spend on this. And really, the
so-called OSS community does not consist of altruistic dummies that work
for free, although suprisingly many people seem to have just the opposite
belief.
On the other hand, it is possible to get very good and friendly support
and help here, but the attitude is everything. You have to be a team
member and contribute (be it mental support, good/insightful comments,
real-world experience with the given area/topic, promoting, coding, money,
free beer, whatever) something. Then you can make demands and complain,
and you will be listened to. If you just complain (like you might do if
you have bought a software from a commercial vendor and do not like it),
it just doesn't work. Of course, you can also choose to not to contribute
anything at all, but it shouldn't come as a suprise to you if your
comments don't have the same weight as those coming from contributing
members. You know, life, give some, get some. ;)
And just to be sure, it really is in our (now speaking as a developer)
interest to listen to user feedback. That's the whole point of releasing
our software under GPL_or_whatever. Active users are invaluable part of a
succesful project.
And btw; professional users have the advantage to other "normal" users
that they can offer the kind of hard-to-find insight and experience from
the real-world that is very valuable for developers. So if you are a
professional, becoming a contributing member is really quite easy, if you
just want to make the effort.
--
http://www.eca.cx
Audio software for Linux!
7:56 p.m.
New subject: [linux-audio-dev] Re: image problem
This is a fair question. First, "many
people" might promote OSS, but
that
doesn't mean unconditional surrender. ;) I mean, I
was really quite
offended by Ivica's message where he proposed that JACK developers are
arrogant if they don't implement x and y. OSS or not, that's not very
nice
considering how much free time we have spend on this.
And what do you think how do I feel when I contribute to this community
with my apps (which certainly are nothing even close in scope or quality
to Ardour, but are my best and most honest shot at it), spend most of my
time promoting Linux, conceiving a Linux & Multimedia class at my
University and teaching it, convincing my mentor that the Linux is the
way to go by purchasing new Linux machines, and evangelizing
Linux/Alsa/Jack among my peers, and all this without any compensation
whatsoever? Do you think my time is any less valuable than yours?
Besides, I was, and still am the advocate of Alsa. But even Alsa
supports OSS apps (to some extent), so I have no clue as to why you are
placing me in the OSS camp. If you read my post carefully, you'd realize
that I am talking about good quality apps that will simply not be usable
with Jack framework which is a shame, and as such would limit user's
ability to unlock the full potential of Linux audio...
The arrogance I spoke of you managed to misinterpret rather well. What I
spoke of is the fact when addressing this issue to Jack developers, you
get cornered into a situation where you are "damned if you do present
the issue, and damned if you don't" while at the same time Jack
developers simply suggest the impossible: why don't you port all those
1000+ apps to Jack? So if I come out with a suggestion, then I get
flamed all over for it, but if I keep quiet, then I cannot use it for
what I need it for.
If that did not come of as described above, then I do apologize.
Every wish for contribution that came from my mouth was in a form of
suggestion/criticism/request for a feature, because that is the most
comprehensive and quickest way of presenting the case. After all,
stroking egos will not make Jack any better... Every one of those was
met with a strong opposition and defensive behavior. I want to
contribute, but if the project developers to whose project I want to
contribute to marginalize my suggestion for contribution, then what's
the point?
Ico
9:12 p.m.
New subject: [linux-audio-dev] Re: image problem
On Tue, 22 Oct 2002, Ivica Bukvic wrote:
Btw; I'm not involved in any way with the Ardour project, and there are
also others in the same position involved in JACK development. Who knows,
maybe you and I might share some common goals with regards to future JACK
development. There might be also others. But with the messages like the
one I have referred to above, you are just burning bridges.
offended by
Ivica's message where he proposed that JACK developers are
arrogant if they don't implement x and y. OSS or not, that's not very nice
considering how much free time we have spend on this.
And what do you think how do
I feel when I contribute to this community
with my apps (which certainly are nothing even close in scope or quality
to Ardour, but are my best and most honest shot at it), spend most of my Besides, I was, and still am the advocate of Alsa. But
even Alsa
supports OSS apps (to some extent), so I have no clue as to why you are
placing me in the OSS camp. If you read my post carefully, you'd realize
that I am talking about good quality apps that will simply not be usable
with Jack framework which is a shame, and as such would limit user's
ability to unlock the full potential of Linux audio...
Ok, let's try to calm a bit. Facts about this issue:
1) most JACK developers have nothing against a OSS-to-JACK or
ALSA-to-JACK bridge; in fact, most would like to see one
2) there is real technical problems involved in implementing (1);
we will never be able to demonstrate JACK's best features
with apps using (1)
3) there are currently real technical problems getting native JACK
clients to run well enough
4) we must get JACK to perform well enough with _some_
clients, so that we can demo and market it to developers
5) (4) is not going to happens with bridged (1) apps, so
we are currently focusing all our energy to (1)
6) Paul has done most of the work involved in (5) and this
might shine through from his recent messages ;)
7) even though Paul is the project leader, there's a community
of users and developers behind JACK
8) we don't have a central pr-agency; not everything said
and written by a person involved in JACK represents
the opinion of all involved developers and users
9) if someone implements (1) in a way that doesn't
compromise (4) (which we absolutely need to achieve),
most JACK developers (but remember (8) ;)) have
nothing against it
... ok, that should settle it. :)
--
http://www.eca.cx
Audio software for Linux!
9:20 p.m.
New subject: [linux-audio-dev] Re: image problem
hey, stop whining. your contributions are very welcome and respected.
as to your *feature requests*, well, go ahead and implement them or find
someone who does.
i think everyone appreciates food for thought, but (at least to me) the
wording of some of the opinions in this thread was rather suboptimal and
might easily provoke some strong rhetoric in defense.
let's just all take a deep breath and stop the jack bashing.
this thread has some ugly similarities to the "reborn" flamefest and
that curious religious EULA of nasca's synthesizer: it's criticizing
*people* for something we wouldn't even have if not for those very same
people.
which i think is stupid beyond comprehension when you look at it from a
distance. sometimes it just seems to evolve from discussions which
started with good-willing suggestions, and nobody notices...
it feels like time for a coffee break to me.
Ivica Bukvic wrote:
--
Jörn Nettingsmeier
Kurfürstenstr 49, 45138 Essen, Germany
http://spunk.dnsalias.org (my server)
http://www.linuxdj.com/audio/lad/ (Linux Audio Developers)
This is a fair question. First, "many
people" might promote OSS, but
that
doesn't mean unconditional surrender. ;) I
mean, I was really quite
offended by Ivica's message where he proposed that JACK developers are
arrogant if they don't implement x and y. OSS or not, that's not very
nice
considering how much free time we have spend on
this.
And what do you think how do I feel when I contribute to this community
with my apps (which certainly are nothing even close in scope or quality
to Ardour, but are my best and most honest shot at it), spend most of my
time promoting Linux, conceiving a Linux & Multimedia class at my
University and teaching it, convincing my mentor that the Linux is the
way to go by purchasing new Linux machines, and evangelizing
Linux/Alsa/Jack among my peers, and all this without any compensation
whatsoever? Do you think my time is any less valuable than yours?
Besides, I was, and still am the advocate of Alsa. But even Alsa
supports OSS apps (to some extent), so I have no clue as to why you are
placing me in the OSS camp. If you read my post carefully, you'd realize
that I am talking about good quality apps that will simply not be usable
with Jack framework which is a shame, and as such would limit user's
ability to unlock the full potential of Linux audio...
The arrogance I spoke of you managed to misinterpret rather well. What I
spoke of is the fact when addressing this issue to Jack developers, you
get cornered into a situation where you are "damned if you do present
the issue, and damned if you don't" while at the same time Jack
developers simply suggest the impossible: why don't you port all those
1000+ apps to Jack? So if I come out with a suggestion, then I get
flamed all over for it, but if I keep quiet, then I cannot use it for
what I need it for.
If that did not come of as described above, then I do apologize.
Every wish for contribution that came from my mouth was in a form of
suggestion/criticism/request for a feature, because that is the most
comprehensive and quickest way of presenting the case. After all,
stroking egos will not make Jack any better... Every one of those was
met with a strong opposition and defensive behavior. I want to
contribute, but if the project developers to whose project I want to
contribute to marginalize my suggestion for contribution, then what's
the point?
Ico
11:18 p.m.
New subject: [linux-audio-dev] Re: image problem
You're right, I need a coffee break :-). But before I do that...
i think everyone appreciates food for thought, but (at
least to me)
the
wording of some of the opinions in this thread was
rather suboptimal
and
might easily provoke some strong rhetoric in defense.
let's just all take a deep breath and stop the jack bashing.
No one is bashing jack and constructive criticism never hurt anyone.
Just because it's not shrink-wrapped with cherry and whipped cream on
top, it does not mean it's somehow geared towards bashing. If I had time
to talk with Paul in person, I am sure I'd choose a smoother way of
expressing my concerns. But on mailing lists, I don't have the time to
proofread and make every statement of mine a Shakespearen creation of
thousand words. (yet I am here ranting and ranting away... oh, well...)
this thread has some ugly similarities to the
"reborn" flamefest and
that curious religious EULA of nasca's synthesizer: it's criticizing
*people* for something we wouldn't even have if not for those very
same
people.
I am thankful for Jack, but at the same time that does not mean there
should be no criticism. If you are referring to me criticizing Paul's
statements, then how do we dare criticize Linus Torvalds for letting OSS
happen? After all, he is the one who made Linux, without him Linux would
have never been. And since we use it, should we simply shut up and use
it with OSS? ;-)
Now, onto that coffee... Cheers!
Ico
23 Oct
23 Oct
12:50 a.m.
New subject: [linux-audio-dev] Re: image problem
* Ivica Bukvic <ico(a)fuse.net> [Oct 22 02 20:16]:
I am thankful for Jack, but at the same time that does
not mean there
should be no criticism. If you are referring to me criticizing Paul's
statements, then how do we dare criticize Linus Torvalds for letting OSS
happen? After all, he is the one who made Linux, without him Linux would
have never been. And since we use it, should we simply shut up and use
it with OSS? ;-)
Theres quite some difference between constructive criticism and saying
that something is broken or incomplete because it doesn't meet
your needs, despite being told over and over that your needs were never
the objective of the system in the first place or there is no
manpower devoted to achieving what you want right now.
I sincerely hope this thread can come to an end now or turn into
something slightly less sour. So agree to disagree? Please? ;)
--ant
8004
days inactive
8004
days old
linux-audio-dev@lists.linuxaudio.org
10 comments
8 participants
participants (8)
-
Anthony -
Ivica Bukvic -
Joern Nettingsmeier -
Kai Vehmanen -
Paul Davis -
Sebastien Metrot -
STEFFL, ERIK (SBCSI) -
Taybin Rutkin