2 Dec
2009
2 Dec
'09
3:21 p.m.
Hi everybody,
Fallowing up the long discussion i'm trying to sort of give the
information you all seem to be missing.
there was a meantion of this, but not too many of you have paid any
attention:
here you can find an article about the current status of the protocol mess:
http://prosoundnewseurope.com/pdf/PSNLive/PSNLive_2009.pdf (page 28)
obviously eas50 is good to go, but Ethernet AVB is right thing really.
the only thing that it's still work in progress, but many of the
proprietary vendors, which already have their own networking solution
(like Harman with HiQ-net, the one i can name of top of my head)
are involved in AVB stadard deveelopment.
The idea of AVB is to bypass the IP layer, which is right thing really.
you don't need to assign IPs to your audio nodes, really!
in avb you'd just have to select channels that nodes whant to listen to.
there is a fair bit of documentation on the ietf.org AVB group's page.
but XMOS is looking to be the best point of refference:
http://www.xmos.com/news/15-jun-2009/xmos-simplifies-ethernet-avb-implement…
is think we should forget everything else and crack on with the XS1 AVB
implementation!
their XS1 chips seem to be really great,
their are basically every innovative and open-source minded.
the official toolchain is LLVM-GCC based.
you can use C, C++ or their own XC.
XC is basically C with some stuff omited (like goto and floats)
and XMOS IO stuff added, don't just say WTF, look at it first!
you should also watch the videos here:
http://www.xmoslinkers.org/conference-online-wf
especialy the two about the "XMOS Architecture" and the AVB
presentation.
some dev-kits are quite expencive, but that's due to low-volume really
;)
there is alos a nice USB Audio kit!
plus there is alittle board that is cheap and has two RJ45's on it
already :)
I'm myself studying the XC book at the moment. And geting familiar with
the tool set :)~~
looks very exciting, cause these are the invovative chips!
ok, may be an FPU is really missing on XCore, but how many DSPs have
it anyway? well quite a few, but there was no FPU on dsps for ages! :))
also XC or C/C++ are so much more obvious then the bloody "menthal american military
engeneers non-sense" called HDL-whatever!
Cheers Everyone,
Hope you will appreciate my excitment :)~ (l0l)
--
ilya .d
2 Dec
2 Dec
4:52 p.m.
New subject: FOSS Ethernet Soundcard - IETF Ethernet AVB
On Wed, Dec 02, 2009 at 07:21:46PM +0000, errordeveloper(a)gmail.com wrote:
their XS1 chips seem to be really great,
their are basically every innovative and open-source minded.
the official toolchain is LLVM-GCC based.
you can use C, C++ or their own XC.
XC is basically C with some stuff omited (like goto and floats)
and XMOS IO stuff added, don't just say WTF, look at it first!
It's not just IO stuff added. Their 'C' has parallelism
at the statement level, and this supported directly by
the hardware - no need for such thing as threads supported
by an OS.
The chips are really a re-invention of the INMOS Transputer
of 25 years ago, and the special 'C' language can be traced
back to Occam, the Transputer's native language.
It's an immensely powerful combination, and IMHO years ahead
of anything else on the market - even if the basic ideas go
back at least 30 years.
Ciao,
--
FA
Wie der Mond heute Nacht aussieht !
Ist es nicht ein seltsames Bild ?
7:06 p.m.
New subject: FOSS Ethernet Soundcard - IETF Ethernet AVB
On Wed, 2 Dec 2009 21:49:10 +0100
fons(a)kokkinizita.net wrote:
On Wed, Dec 02, 2009 at 07:21:46PM +0000,
errordeveloper(a)gmail.com wrote:
Well, I've just done some (not so) light reading, and this does indeed
seem to tick all the boxes. There seems to be quite widespread support
for AVB in the industry, which is always good, although I can only find
this one vendor producing development kits.
Also, there is one very real problem. The core chip itself is a
massive BGA device. This would mean we would ether have to always use
development boards (expensive and clunky) or would have to find a
contractor that would mount these, possibly on a carrier board/socket of
some sort. This would only be practical for bulk orders.
As a dedicated audio chip it would however, make life a lot easier (not
withstanding the single source availability). If we were to redirect to
this, it would leave a couple of major questions unanswered.
How is the link to Jack implemented in the computer?
How do we make the AD/serial conversion.
What control protocol should we use (OSC)?
Oh dear, that's three :)
It occurs to me to wonder how clear and well defined the AVB protocol
is, and if it is possible/practical to implement it ourselves on a
platform of our choice. This is sort of half-way between wheel
re-inventing, and non-dependence on a single source.
What do others think?
--
Will J Godfrey
http://www.musically.me.uk
Say you have a poem and I have a tune.
Exchange them and we can both have a poem, a tune, and a song.
their XS1 chips seem to be really great,
their are basically every innovative and open-source minded.
the official toolchain is LLVM-GCC based.
you can use C, C++ or their own XC.
XC is basically C with some stuff omited (like goto and floats)
and XMOS IO stuff added, don't just say WTF, look at it first!
It's not just IO stuff added. Their 'C' has parallelism
at the statement level, and this supported directly by
the hardware - no need for such thing as threads supported
by an OS.
The chips are really a re-invention of the INMOS Transputer
of 25 years ago, and the special 'C' language can be traced
back to Occam, the Transputer's native language.
It's an immensely powerful combination, and IMHO years ahead
of anything else on the market - even if the basic ideas go
back at least 30 years.
Ciao,
18 Jul
18 Jul
3:21 p.m.
New subject: FOSS Ethernet Soundcard - IETF Ethernet AVB
On Wed, 2 Dec 2009 23:06:46 +0000
Folderol <folderol(a)ukfsn.org> wrote:
On Wed, 2 Dec 2009 21:49:10 +0100
fons(a)kokkinizita.net wrote:
Well, this all went quiet didn't it :(
Normally I'd be out and about on weekends but I'm grounded today (car
problems) so I'm sitting here shuffling through old files :o
I found this link that might be of interest.
http://www.xcore.com/projects/xmos-base-avb-endpoint
Judging by the dates, this project is very much alive.
Those boards look rather interesting.
I wonder what the guy is using at the computer end. He doesn't say as
far as I can tell.
--
Will J Godfrey
http://www.musically.me.uk
Say you have a poem and I have a tune.
Exchange them and we can both have a poem, a tune, and a song.
On Wed, Dec 02, 2009 at 07:21:46PM +0000,
errordeveloper(a)gmail.com wrote:
Well, I've just done some (not so) light reading, and this does indeed
seem to tick all the boxes. There seems to be quite widespread support
for AVB in the industry, which is always good, although I can only find
this one vendor producing development kits.
Also, there is one very real problem. The core chip itself is a
massive BGA device. This would mean we would ether have to always use
development boards (expensive and clunky) or would have to find a
contractor that would mount these, possibly on a carrier board/socket of
some sort. This would only be practical for bulk orders.
As a dedicated audio chip it would however, make life a lot easier (not
withstanding the single source availability). If we were to redirect to
this, it would leave a couple of major questions unanswered.
How is the link to Jack implemented in the computer?
How do we make the AD/serial conversion.
What control protocol should we use (OSC)?
Oh dear, that's three :)
It occurs to me to wonder how clear and well defined the AVB protocol
is, and if it is possible/practical to implement it ourselves on a
platform of our choice. This is sort of half-way between wheel
re-inventing, and non-dependence on a single source.
What do others think?
their XS1 chips seem to be really great,
their are basically every innovative and open-source minded.
the official toolchain is LLVM-GCC based.
you can use C, C++ or their own XC.
XC is basically C with some stuff omited (like goto and floats)
and XMOS IO stuff added, don't just say WTF, look at it first!
It's not just IO stuff added. Their 'C' has parallelism
at the statement level, and this supported directly by
the hardware - no need for such thing as threads supported
by an OS.
The chips are really a re-invention of the INMOS Transputer
of 25 years ago, and the special 'C' language can be traced
back to Occam, the Transputer's native language.
It's an immensely powerful combination, and IMHO years ahead
of anything else on the market - even if the basic ideas go
back at least 30 years.
Ciao, 
6:23 p.m.
New subject: FOSS Ethernet Soundcard - IETF Ethernet AVB
On Sun, Jul 18, 2010 at 6:21 AM, Folderol <folderol(a)ukfsn.org> wrote:
This provides an informative overview, even if an advertisement for Q-Lan:
http://www.qscaudio.com/products/network/QSys/Q-LAN_WhitePaper_2009-10.pdf
(authored by the patent-holder on CobraNet: http://bit.ly/9TOyJt (*))
AVB™ is a layer-2 network solution. AVB not only
requires
an uninterrupted layer-2 connection between devices but
it requires that connection be made through special AVB-
capable switches and network equipment.
...
Clock Distribution
Any digital audio and/or video distribution system must
deliver both the media data and its corresponding clock.
Q-LAN accomplishes clock distribution using the IEEE 1588
Precision time protocol (PTP). A variation of PTP is used in
AVB. PTP is under consideration for use in next-generation
video distribution systems standards under development
by SMPTE.
,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
However, being able to bypass lock-in with an open-source solution,
and cheap consumer hardware, makes the info you posted especially
interesting. These xmos units look quite promising for $149.00:
https://www.xmos.com/products/development-kits/xc-2-ethernet-kit
And (OT) make it possible to cost-efficiently recreate great ideas
originating as burning man projects:
http://petrinis.se/blog/swarm-light/
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YqexlHt1Mw0&feature=related
(TODO: large area sonic-holography network using ethernet and hundreds
of these xmos units and consumer "digital tv" i2s-to-class-D amplifier
units and "tv-size" loudspeakrs, all solar powered and
outdoor-situated :-) )
Regarding audio over ethernet -- see also:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Audio_over_Ethernet
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MADI
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EtherSound
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AES47
Niels
http://nielsmayer.com
(*): http://bit.ly/9TOyJt ==
http://books.google.com/books?id=y0d9VA0lkogC&pg=PA1346&lpg=PA1346&…
12 Nov
12 Nov
9:14 p.m.
New subject: Back from the grave?
I've been watching the Etherent/AVB situation for a while now. I was very
disappointed when one potentially promising avenue was effectively closed when
the manufacturers of an AVB endpoint module told me they were only interested in
talking to commercial concerns, and then only under NDA. Maybe I'm wrong but I
can't see how an NDA fits with an open standard!
However, all is not doom and gloom. Looking again at the xmos site I came across
this:
http://www.xmos.com/products/reference-designs/avbl2
It is a bit thin on details, but the price doesn't seem unreasonable when you
consider it will include 2 dev boards.
Some questions that occur to me and I don't have answers for:
What is the audio quality generally (bit depth, sample rate, noise etc.)?
I notice that, as well as stereo in & out, they quote up to 8 I2S channels.
How difficult would it be to create a jack 'endpoint' and control?
Would a variant of netjack be able to handle this?
All through, my wish has been to get away from soundcard obsolescence
(PCI?), vendor lock-in and software incompatibility. With the AVB standard
getting increasing support I believe that if any one compliant endpoint can be
supported, then eventually many others could be.
--
Will J Godfrey
http://www.musically.me.uk
Say you have a poem and I have a tune.
Exchange them and we can both have a poem, a tune, and a song.
9:28 p.m.
New subject: Back from the grave?
On 11/12/10 21:13, Folderol wrote:
I've been watching the Etherent/AVB situation for
a while now.
Where have you been looking?
What is the audio quality generally (bit depth, sample
rate, noise etc.)?
I notice that, as well as stereo in & out, they quote up to 8 I2S channels.
You can basically throw in whatever you want. AVB is a framework to
synchronise media clocks and handling streaming by combining already
known protocols and practices, with some sugar on top.
How difficult would it be to create a jack
'endpoint' and control?
Once you have your environment set up, it is extremely easy. The hard
part is creating an environment where AVB works.
All through, my wish has been to get away from
soundcard obsolescence
(PCI?), vendor lock-in and software incompatibility. With the AVB standard
getting increasing support I believe that if any one compliant endpoint can be
supported, then eventually many others could be.
You are missing one important point: Synchronized media clocks. Unless
you have support for PtP and can timestamp your audio data in hardware,
you can pretty much forget it - except for very simple cases.
Flo
--
Machines can do the work, so people have time to think.
public key DA43FEF4 x-hkp://wwwkeys.eu.pgp.net
14 Nov
14 Nov
4:58 p.m.
New subject: Back from the grave?
On Fri, 12 Nov 2010 21:28:15 +0100
Florian Faber <faber(a)faberman.de> wrote:
I get the impression that xmos/atterotech are doing a lot more than just
providing the 'glue'.
This is why I think this option looks particularly attractive, although I don't
know how easy it would be to understand the extensions that this system uses.
The link I gave suggests that time code and sample rate restoration is built in
to the software reference design.
--
Will J Godfrey
http://www.musically.me.uk
Say you have a poem and I have a tune.
Exchange them and we can both have a poem, a tune, and a song.
On 11/12/10 21:13, Folderol wrote:
A number of commercial sites, and following links from wikipedia etc.
I've been watching the Etherent/AVB situation
for a while now.
Where have you been looking? What is the
audio quality generally (bit depth, sample rate, noise etc.)?
I notice that, as well as stereo in & out, they quote up to 8 I2S channels.
You can basically throw in whatever you want. AVB is a framework to
synchronise media clocks and handling streaming by combining already
known protocols and practices, with some sugar on top. How difficult
would it be to create a jack 'endpoint' and control?
Once you have your environment set up, it is extremely easy. The hard
part is creating an environment where AVB works. All through,
my wish has been to get away from soundcard obsolescence
(PCI?), vendor lock-in and software incompatibility. With the AVB standard
getting increasing support I believe that if any one compliant endpoint can be
supported, then eventually many others could be.
You are missing one important point: Synchronized media clocks. Unless
you have support for PtP and can timestamp your audio data in hardware,
you can pretty much forget it - except for very simple cases.
Flo 
8:29 p.m.
New subject: Back from the grave?
These guys appear to have a close-to-AVB solution and are promising to
migrate to AVB while still preserving hardware investment through
firmware updates. I don't know about their prices and you'd be using
their proprietary stuff right now but it may be an option worth looking
into.
http://www.audinate.com/
-----Original Message-----
From: linux-audio-dev-bounces(a)lists.linuxaudio.org
[mailto:linux-audio-dev-bounces@lists.linuxaudio.org] On Behalf Of
Folderol
Sent: Friday, November 12, 2010 1:14 PM
To: linux-audio-dev(a)lists.linuxaudio.org
Subject: [LAD] Back from the grave?
I've been watching the Etherent/AVB situation for a while now. I was
very
disappointed when one potentially promising avenue was effectively
closed when
the manufacturers of an AVB endpoint module told me they were only
interested in
talking to commercial concerns, and then only under NDA. Maybe I'm wrong
but I
can't see how an NDA fits with an open standard!
However, all is not doom and gloom. Looking again at the xmos site I
came across
this:
http://www.xmos.com/products/reference-designs/avbl2
It is a bit thin on details, but the price doesn't seem unreasonable
when you
consider it will include 2 dev boards.
Some questions that occur to me and I don't have answers for:
What is the audio quality generally (bit depth, sample rate, noise
etc.)?
I notice that, as well as stereo in & out, they quote up to 8 I2S
channels.
How difficult would it be to create a jack 'endpoint' and control?
Would a variant of netjack be able to handle this?
All through, my wish has been to get away from soundcard obsolescence
(PCI?), vendor lock-in and software incompatibility. With the AVB
standard
getting increasing support I believe that if any one compliant endpoint
can be
supported, then eventually many others could be.
--
Will J Godfrey
http://www.musically.me.uk
Say you have a poem and I have a tune.
Exchange them and we can both have a poem, a tune, and a song.
_______________________________________________
Linux-audio-dev mailing list
Linux-audio-dev(a)lists.linuxaudio.org
http://lists.linuxaudio.org/listinfo/linux-audio-dev
8:37 p.m.
New subject: Back from the grave?
On 11/14/10 20:29, Jack Hildwine wrote:
These guys appear to have a close-to-AVB solution and
are promising to
migrate to AVB while still preserving hardware investment through
firmware updates. I don't know about their prices and you'd be using
their proprietary stuff right now but it may be an option worth looking
into.
Dante is closed and proprietary crap. If you want an open standard that
is AVB compatible and suitable for broadcast use, check out RAVENNA:
http://ravenna.alcnetworx.com/
Flo
--
Machines can do the work, so people have time to think.
public key DA43FEF4 x-hkp://wwwkeys.eu.pgp.net
2 Dec
2 Dec
4:59 p.m.
New subject: FOSS Ethernet Soundcard
To recap from yesterdays discussions:
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++
-------------------
Physical Size
-------------------
http://www.rittal.com/products/ArtikelDatenblatt.asp?ArtNr=1360500&lang…
600 mm x 600 mm x 350 mm
------------------------------------------
Hardware / Firmware / Software
------------------------------------------
Options:
- Linux firmware + netjack
upto 10 channels uncompressed via 100Mb ethernet
http://www.atmel.com/dyn/products/tools_card.asp?tool_id=4102
- Linux firmware + ethernet, USB.
upto 10 channels uncompressed via 100Mb ethernet
upto 48 channels uncompressed via 480 MB USB (hah, yeah right)
http://www.bridgeco.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=4…
- Manufacturer supplied firmware + ethernet AVB.
upto 100 channels via 1Gb ethernet
http://www.xmos.com/news/15-jun-2009/xmos-simplifies-ethernet-avb-implement…
- Manufacturer supplied firmware + firewire, ADAT,
64 channels onboard processing defined by spec
http://www.tctechnologies.tc/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&…
-----------------
Connectivity
-----------------
100Mb ethernet. upto 10 uncompressed 32b float channels
1Gb ethernet. upto 100 uncompressed 32b float channels.
USB-2.0
ADAT
Firewire
-------------
Website
-------------
Need to define project vision, setup wiki, git-hub etc...
-------------
Funding
-------------
Options:
1: Due to the limitations on ROI we are looking at finding a solution to
the above that can be implemented for as little cost as possible.
2: We can set up a pool to get contributions from the wider community if
we decide that we simply must work with technology that requires a large
financial commitment.
3: A handful of people donate money and release the result as open
source going against the capitalist ideal.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Patrick Shirkey
Boost Hardware Ltd
6:02 p.m.
New subject: FOSS Ethernet Soundcard - IETF Ethernet AVB
On Wed, Dec 02, 2009 at 07:21:46PM +0000, errordeveloper(a)gmail.com wrote:
obviously eas50 is good to go, but Ethernet AVB is
right thing really.
You are right. I just read some of the AVB documentation five hours ago,
also some bits from XMOS.
It does all what's required, it has vendor support, it's based on
established standards, most terms also occur in FFADO. (IEC61883-6,
AM824).
It features USB, S/PDIF, I2S, has 100MBit/s or Gbit/s network...
is think we should forget everything else and crack on
with the XS1 AVB
implementation!
Absolutely. The problem has obviously already been solved by AVB.
--
mail: adi(a)thur.de http://adi.thur.de PGP/GPG: key via keyserver
If you think, you're wrong, you might be right!
4912
days inactive
5259
days old
linux-audio-dev@lists.linuxaudio.org
11 comments
8 participants
participants (8)
-
adi＠drcomp.erfurt.thur.de -
errordeveloper＠gmail.com -
Florian Faber -
Folderol -
fons＠kokkinizita.net -
Jack Hildwine -
Niels Mayer -
Patrick Shirkey