24 May
2010
24 May
'10
1:11 p.m.
On Sun, May 23, 2010 at 11:07:27PM +0200, Olivier Guilyardi wrote:
hmm.. i dont really see the advantage of writing an engine in C.
first of all you loose RAII locks.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Resource_Acquisition_Is_Initialization
then you need to manage most memory yourself again....
could you explain your reasons a bit more ?
On 05/23/2010 10:22 PM, Chris Cannam wrote:
[...]
yeah. but if thats not a concatenation or an addition the programmer of
the operator overload should be shot on sight.
... by which I don't mean to imply that I
can't understand it
(although, with C++, there is always the possibility that I _think_ I
can understand it but am sadly mistaken because of some weird shit
happening behind the scenes). I just mean that I can't simply read
it.
I once read a great (and funny) article arguing that you simple can't assume
anything about what the following means in C++:
a = b + c
Nothing This may be one really serious advantage for the
everything-in-C types
-- a competent C programmer can understand any C, whereas C++ is big
enough to have many different "schools of C++" which are mutually
unintelligible without further study.
That's also the seed of its popularity, I suppose -- everyone can
write the way they like in it, and if you can't work out how to do it
properly, you can always drop back into C.
Yeah, C rocks :-)
But, the problem is that, in my experience, C++ can increase productivity by a
factor of x10 or so over C. It's my personal experience. Very often, I have to
consider making a choice between the two, and I often end up coding the engine
in C and the rest in C++ or a dynamic language.
But maybe that, with experience and methodology, one can get as productive in C
as in C++? I suppose the guys at Gnome would agree with that..
there is a reason why gob2 and vala emerged.
writing a GObject in C is a pretty big PITA.
its probably possible to create the boilerplate out of some kind of
template.
but i am not aware of some rails/paster like framework to create this
boilerplate with a single command.
--
Olivier
--
torben Hohn
24 May
24 May
1:18 p.m.
New subject: Looking for an introduction to rt programming with a gui
On 05/24/2010 10:24 AM, torbenh wrote:
In C, this means adding integers and/or pointers. In C++, what the programmer
considers to be concatenation or addition, especially with somehow complex
objects, is very subjective. In the end, I think that you can yourself end up
writing odd things. And, this is different from Python op overloading, because
in C++, you almost always /have to/ overload the = operator. It's not marginal.
The problem here is that, in the end, we're not really dealing with a /language/
anymore. Words and operators do not have any specified meaning. The same thing
goes with function overloading, where, as in Java, two functions with the same
name but a different signature are two different things. This doesn't happen in C:
- a name is a name,
- a punctuation (operator) is a punctuation,
- a verb (function) is a verb.
But, of course, with much care, you can respect these rules in C++, and thus
stay in the language domain. But, in C, this is somehow enforced, and that helps
when you're dealing with complex algorithms: you can concentrate on what you
have to say with the language, rather than reinventing the language at the same
time.
hmm.. i dont really see the advantage of writing an engine in C.
first of all you loose RAII locks.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Resource_Acquisition_Is_Initialization
Oh yes, there are many great features in C++.
Indeed, and that's why I don't use Vala. To make any real use of it, you need to
write GObjects wrappers for the libraries or low level C/C++ routines that you
need, before you can bind them into Vala.
Nevertheless, Vala looks promising. But I don't like the GObject model. I made
my own OO constructs in C with inheritance and such, but if you want the whole
thing, with interfaces etc.., I think that C just isn't the way to go.
On Sun, May 23, 2010 at 11:07:27PM +0200, Olivier
Guilyardi wrote:
[...]
I once read a
great (and funny) article arguing that you simple can't assume
anything about what the following means in C++:
a = b + c
Nothing
yeah. but if thats not a concatenation or an addition the programmer of
the operator overload should be shot on sight. This may be one really serious advantage for the
everything-in-C types
-- a competent C programmer can understand any C, whereas C++ is big
enough to have many different "schools of C++" which are mutually
unintelligible without further study.
That's also the seed of its popularity, I suppose -- everyone can
write the way they like in it, and if you can't work out how to do it
properly, you can always drop back into C.
Yeah, C rocks :-)
But, the problem is that, in my experience, C++ can increase productivity by a
factor of x10 or so over C. It's my personal experience. Very often, I have to
consider making a choice between the two, and I often end up coding the engine
in C and the rest in C++ or a dynamic language. then you need to manage most memory yourself again....
Which may results in choosing a simplified memory model, and thus optimization.
could you explain your reasons a bit more ?
First, it's not all about reasons, it's also a matter of taste. But what I like
about C is that, for the reasons outlined above, it's closer to doing what it
says than C++, the price being verbosity. And when I work with some low level
audio routines, where things have to be as optimized and stable as possible, I
like this clarity. Yes, your must manage memory and other things yourself, but
it's all there in front of your eyes.
That said, in the past I chose to write a GUI using pure C with Gtk, and this
was really a mistake I think. Adding simple features is really heavy now.
But maybe
that, with experience and methodology, one can get as productive in C
as in C++? I suppose the guys at Gnome would agree with that..
there is a reason why gob2 and vala emerged.
writing a GObject in C is a pretty big PITA. its probably possible to create the boilerplate out of
some kind of
template.
but i am not aware of some rails/paster like framework to create this
boilerplate with a single command.
Actually, I'm currently thinking about some very clever IDE and intellisense
features for C. When I look at this Eclipse IDE, and all that it understands,
and thus automatically proposes, I think that similar aids could really be
useful in C.
--
Olivier
1:47 p.m.
New subject: Looking for an introduction to rt programming with a gui
On Mon, May 24, 2010 at 12:36:43PM +0200, Olivier Guilyardi wrote:
taste is one of the strongest reasons in my opinion.
Indeed, and that's why I don't use Vala. To make any real use of it, you need to
write GObjects wrappers for the libraries or low level C/C++ routines that you
need, before you can bind them into Vala.
hmm... i actually view it from the other side.
if i want to derive from GtkWidget or somthing this is a huge PITA in C.
in vala this is easy and streight forward. and the vala code compiles to C
so i can go ahead and use my vala widget from my C code.
you dont need to write GObject wrappers. but vala can generate bindings
automatically through GObject introspection.
a vala .vapi file looks like this:
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
[CCode (cprefix = "", lower_case_cprefix =
"",cheader_filename="time.h")]
namespace Time {
[CCode (cname="struct tm", cprefix="")]
public class TimeStruct {
[CCode (cname="tm_sec")] public int second;
[CCode (cname="tm_min")] public int minute;
[CCode (cname="tm_hour")] public int hour;
[CCode (cname="tm_mday")] public int day_of_month;
[CCode (cname="tm_mon")] public int month;
[CCode (cname="tm_year")] public int year;
[CCode (cname="tm_wday")] public int day_of_week;
[CCode (cname="tm_yday")] public int day_of_year;
[CCode (cname="tm_isdst")] public bool daylight_saving_time;
}
[CCode (cheader_filename = "time.h")]
public static int time (pointer int_ref);
public static weak TimeStruct localtime(ref int time);
}
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
hmm... when it comes to C i dont miss anything from vim. its pretty much smart enough.
c++ is another story. since the tags system isnt smart enought to
resolve x->write() to the right write() method of all those classes that support that
interface.
if your still into vim you might want to have a look at http://eclim.org/
thats pretty awesome :)
--
torben Hohn
then you need
to manage most memory yourself again....
Which may results in choosing a simplified memory model, and thus optimization.
could you explain your reasons a bit more ?
First, it's not all about reasons, it's also a matter of taste. But what I like
about C is that, for the reasons outlined above,
it's closer to doing what it
says than C++, the price being verbosity. And when I work with some low level
audio routines, where things have to be as optimized and stable as possible, I
like this clarity. Yes, your must manage memory and other things yourself, but
it's all there in front of your eyes.
That said, in the past I chose to write a GUI using pure C with Gtk, and this
was really a mistake I think. Adding simple features is really heavy now.
yes. thats what i referred to.
you cant simply derive from GtkWidget in C ... you need to write 50 locs
of boilerplate to do that.
But maybe
that, with experience and methodology, one can get as productive in C
as in C++? I suppose the guys at Gnome would agree with that..
there is a reason why gob2 and vala emerged.
writing a GObject in C is a pretty big PITA.
Nevertheless, Vala looks promising. But I don't like the GObject model. I made
my own OO constructs in C with inheritance and such, but if you want the whole
thing, with interfaces etc.., I think that C just isn't the way to go.
your own OO constructs dont really help you when you want to derive from a GObject.
and thats the whole point, i think.
gtkmm makes deriving easy. but the resulting object cant be wrapped with pygtk
or other stuff. you lock yourself into the c++ domain.
or write your own wrappers.
its probably possible to create the boilerplate
out of some kind of
template.
but i am not aware of some rails/paster like framework to create this
boilerplate with a single command.
Actually, I'm currently thinking about some very clever IDE and intellisense
features for C. When I look at this Eclipse IDE, and all that it understands,
and thus automatically proposes, I think that similar aids could really be
useful in C.
6 p.m.
New subject: Looking for an introduction to rt programming with a gui
On 05/24/2010 01:47 PM, torbenh wrote:
Yes, I don't think that I'll ever choose C for the GUI part again, by the way.
But, as I previously meant, that is very likely to be the case for the low level
part.
Indeed, and that's why I
don't use Vala. To make any real use of it, you need to
write GObjects wrappers for the libraries or low level C/C++ routines that you
need, before you can bind them into Vala.
hmm... i actually view it from the other side.
if i want to derive from GtkWidget or somthing this is a huge PITA in C.
in vala this is easy and streight forward. and the vala code compiles to C
so i can go ahead and use my vala widget from my C code.
I understand that you use Vala solely as a GObject generator.. I didn't think
about this actually. I was talking about using Vala as the main language, or at
least the whole GUI part, and call native code from Vala through bindings.
Yes, but my constructs are very simple and readable to me :p They were never
meant to be coupled with GObject, they bring some OO features I need, and it's
just pure C, no code generation, etc.. Eg:
http://jackbeat.samalyse.org/browser/trunk/src/stream
hmm... when it comes to C i dont miss anything from vim. its pretty much smart enough.
c++ is another story. since the tags system isnt smart enought to
resolve x->write() to the right write() method of all those classes that support that
interface.
I've been using the tags system for C, then I stopped using it, tried again,
etc.. I'm not very confident with the exuberant thing and the like. I once tried
some vim intellisense system, I think that one sort of worked, but Googl'ing
about that it looks like it gained maturity:
http://insenvim.sourceforge.net/
I think that some day I need to seat and work a couple of days on optimizing my
Vim setup. Maybe even learn the scripting part..
On Mon, May 24, 2010 at 12:36:43PM +0200, Olivier
Guilyardi wrote:
taste is one of the strongest reasons in my opinion.
I follow you here :-)
[...]
then you
need to manage most memory yourself again....
Which may results in choosing a
simplified memory model, and thus optimization.
could you explain your reasons a bit more ?
First, it's not all about reasons, it's also a matter of taste. But what I
like That said, in
the past I chose to write a GUI using pure C with Gtk, and this
was really a mistake I think. Adding simple features is really heavy now.
yes. thats what i referred to.
you cant simply derive from GtkWidget in C ... you need to write 50 locs
of boilerplate to do that. But maybe
that, with experience and methodology, one can get as productive in C
as in C++? I suppose the guys at Gnome would agree with that..
there is a reason
why gob2 and vala emerged.
writing a GObject in C is a pretty big PITA. you dont need to write GObject wrappers. but vala can
generate bindings
automatically through GObject introspection.
Yes I know about this, but if you need bindings for your low level stuff (jack,
etc..) or for a library for which the bindings do not exist, then you need to
write a GObject wrapper in C for this introspection to take place.
But using Vala to generate the wrapper skeleton could be the key.. I didn't
think about this actually.
[...]
Nevertheless,
Vala looks promising. But I don't like the GObject model. I made
my own OO constructs in C with inheritance and such, but if you want the whole
thing, with interfaces etc.., I think that C just isn't the way to go.
your own OO constructs dont really help you when you want to derive from a GObject.
and thats the whole point, i think. gtkmm makes deriving easy. but the resulting object
cant be wrapped with pygtk
or other stuff. you lock yourself into the c++ domain.
or write your own wrappers.
If using Python and C/C++ (a great couple by the way), they I think the GUI part
should be written in Python anyway.
its probably possible to create the boilerplate out of
some kind of
template.
but i am not aware of some rails/paster like framework to create this
boilerplate with a single command.
Actually, I'm currently thinking about some
very clever IDE and intellisense
features for C. When I look at this Eclipse IDE, and all that it understands,
and thus automatically proposes, I think that similar aids could really be
useful in C. if your still into vim you might want to have a look
at http://eclim.org/
thats pretty awesome :)
I have to try this, especially the headless mode, thank you :-)
However, it's not that I really like the Eclipse Java machinery. But I'm
currently forced to use it, and I have to witness that source refactoring for
function, class renaming, and a couple of other features are awesome.
I'll give a try to Eclim to see what it has to offer in this regard.
--
Olivier
6:07 p.m.
New subject: Looking for an introduction to rt programming with a gui
On 05/24/2010 06:00 PM, Olivier Guilyardi wrote:
Forget about this one, I googled too fast, it's an old and windows-only thing.
But there seem to be good stuff around:
http://www.google.fr/search?q=vim+omnicomplete
--
Olivier
8:47 p.m.
New subject: Looking for an introduction to rt programming with a gui
On Mon, May 24, 2010 at 06:00:05PM +0200, Olivier Guilyardi wrote:
hmm... i actually view it from the other side.
if i want to derive from GtkWidget or somthing this is a huge PITA in C.
in vala this is easy and streight forward. and the vala code compiles to C
so i can go ahead and use my vala widget from my C code.
I understand that you use Vala solely as a GObject generator.. I didn't think
about this actually. I was talking about using Vala as the main language, or at
least the whole GUI part, and call native code from Vala through bindings.
i actually dont use vala.
i still got some gob2 baggage in the galan codebase.
and here it would probably make sense to convert that to vala.
but i am not really working on galan anymore.
no. you can write a vapi file manually.
but i still find maintaining some wrappers annoying.
if the stuff isnt supposed to be a library and doesnt need to be used
from other language i guess i just stay do it all in c++
well.. i am a bit annoyed of pythons GIL currently. because it makes
calling python callbacks from other C threads a bit annoying.
still pygtk always pulls me back to using python :)
hmm... when it comes to C i dont miss anything from vim. its pretty much smart enough.
c++ is another story. since the tags system isnt smart enought to
resolve x->write() to the right write() method of all those classes that support that
interface.
I've been using the tags system for C, then I stopped using it, tried again,
etc.. I'm not very confident with the exuberant thing and the like. I once tried
some vim intellisense system, I think that one sort of worked, but Googl'ing
about that it looks like it gained maturity:
http://insenvim.sourceforge.net/
I think that some day I need to seat and work a couple of days on optimizing my
Vim setup. Maybe even learn the scripting part..
hmm... completionwise i am pretty happy with the normal completion.
what i basically need is jumping to a tag working with c++
(without :ts for selecting the right one if that method name was
ambiguous)
hmmm... i will have a look at omnicomplete
maybe it contains the necessary logic to achieve this.
it makes most of eclipses awesomeness accessible.
while retaining the awesomeness of vim.
i only tried it with java though. would be interesting how well it works
with C.
--
torben Hohn
On 05/24/2010 01:47 PM, torbenh wrote:
> On Mon, May 24, 2010 at 12:36:43PM +0200, Olivier Guilyardi wrote:
> But maybe
that, with experience and methodology, one can get as productive in C
> as in C++? I suppose the guys at Gnome would agree with that..
there is a reason why gob2 and vala emerged.
writing a GObject in C is a pretty big PITA.
Indeed, and that's why I
don't use Vala. To make any real use of it, you need to
write GObjects wrappers for the libraries or low level C/C++ routines that you
need, before you can bind them into Vala. you dont need to write GObject wrappers. but vala
can generate bindings
automatically through GObject introspection.
Yes I know about this, but if you need bindings for your low level stuff (jack,
etc..) or for a library for which the bindings do not exist, then you need to
write a GObject wrapper in C for this introspection to take place.
But using Vala to generate the wrapper skeleton could be the key.. I didn't
think about this actually.
[...]
Yes, but my constructs are very simple and readable to me :p They were never
meant to be coupled with GObject, they bring some OO features I need, and it's
just pure C, no code generation, etc.. Eg:
http://jackbeat.samalyse.org/browser/trunk/src/stream
yeah. as long as its just for the backend, its nice like this.
but my main point is that when implementing some custom widgets i want
to inherit from the closest GtkWidget and just refine it.
so that would be either gtkmm or pygtk
Nevertheless, Vala looks promising. But I don't like the GObject model. I made
my own OO constructs in C with inheritance and such, but if you want the whole
thing, with interfaces etc.., I think that C just isn't the way to go.
your own OO constructs dont really help you when you want to derive from a GObject.
and thats the whole point, i think. gtkmm makes deriving easy. but the resulting
object cant be wrapped with pygtk
or other stuff. you lock yourself into the c++ domain.
or write your own wrappers.
If using Python and C/C++ (a great couple by the way), they I think the GUI part
should be written in Python anyway. its probably possible to create the boilerplate out of
some kind of
template.
but i am not aware of some rails/paster like framework to create this
boilerplate with a single command.
Actually, I'm currently thinking about some
very clever IDE and intellisense
features for C. When I look at this Eclipse IDE, and all that it understands,
and thus automatically proposes, I think that similar aids could really be
useful in C. if your still into vim you might want to have a
look at http://eclim.org/
thats pretty awesome :)
I have to try this, especially the headless mode, thank you :-)
However, it's not that I really like the Eclipse Java machinery. But I'm
currently forced to use it, and I have to witness that source refactoring for
function, class renaming, and a couple of other features are awesome.
I'll give a try to Eclim to see what it has to offer in this regard.
11:37 p.m.
New subject: Looking for an introduction to rt programming with a gui
On 05/24/2010 08:47 PM, torbenh wrote:
it makes most of eclipses awesomeness accessible.
while retaining the awesomeness of vim.
i only tried it with java though. would be interesting how well it works
with C.
Now look what just happened to me. I've been working for about 6 hours doing
Java in Eclipse, making rather major changes. And I press run, it just works, no
error except a couple ones that I expected.
This IDE with all this syntax checking and refactoring tools (and I might call
them bells and whistles sometimes..) produces a real "added value".
That makes me think that the development environment can really completely
change the way you perceive a language or framework. There must be something to
do for C lovers too, be it in Eclipse or not. Maybe that's Eclim, or a lot of
Vim scripting (patching ?) that awaits me ;-)
--
Olivier
On Mon, May 24, 2010 at 06:00:05PM +0200, Olivier
Guilyardi wrote:
> On 05/24/2010 01:47 PM, torbenh wrote:
>> On Mon, May 24, 2010 at 12:36:43PM +0200, Olivier Guilyardi wrote:
[.......]
I agree with most of what was above.
I think that
some day I need to seat and work a couple of days on optimizing my
Vim setup. Maybe even learn the scripting part..
hmm... completionwise i am pretty happy with the normal completion.
what i basically need is jumping to a tag working with c++
(without :ts for selecting the right one if that method name was
ambiguous)
hmmm... i will have a look at omnicomplete
maybe it contains the necessary logic to achieve this.
if your
still into vim you might want to have a look at http://eclim.org/
thats pretty awesome :)
I have to try this, especially the headless mode, thank
you :-)
However, it's not that I really like the Eclipse Java machinery. But I'm
currently forced to use it, and I have to witness that source refactoring for
function, class renaming, and a couple of other features are awesome.
I'll give a try to Eclim to see what it has to offer in this regard.
25 May
25 May
7:24 a.m.
New subject: Looking for an introduction to rt programming with a gui
On Mon, May 24, 2010 at 11:37:32PM +0200, Olivier Guilyardi wrote:
On 05/24/2010 08:47 PM, torbenh wrote:
it makes most of eclipses awesomeness accessible.
while retaining the awesomeness of vim.
i only tried it with java though. would be interesting how well it works
with C.
Now look what just happened to me. I've been working for about 6 hours doing
Java in Eclipse, making rather major changes. And I press run, it just works, no
error except a couple ones that I expected.
This IDE with all this syntax checking and refactoring tools (and I might call
them bells and whistles sometimes..) produces a real "added value".
That makes me think that the development environment can really completely
change the way you perceive a language or framework. There must be something to
do for C lovers too, be it in Eclipse or not. Maybe that's Eclim, or a lot of
Vim scripting (patching ?) that awaits me ;-)
eclim does a lint upon every :w
you instantly get marks to errors.
it pretty much does all the error hiliting that eclipse does too.
its basically just a different frontend to eclipse.
eclipse is running inside a nailgun server and vim communicates with
it via nailgun invocations.
it will probably work similarly if you use eclipse cdt.
but i prefer to have a real buildsystem with C++
and then eclipse doesnt know about your c files.
On Mon, May 24, 2010 at 06:00:05PM +0200, Olivier
Guilyardi wrote:
> On 05/24/2010 01:47 PM, torbenh wrote:
>> On Mon, May 24, 2010 at 12:36:43PM +0200, Olivier Guilyardi wrote:
[.......]
I agree with most of what was above.
I think
that some day I need to seat and work a couple of days on optimizing my
Vim setup. Maybe even learn the scripting part..
hmm... completionwise i am pretty happy with the normal completion.
what i basically need is jumping to a tag working with c++
(without :ts for selecting the right one if that method name was
ambiguous)
hmmm... i will have a look at omnicomplete
maybe it contains the necessary logic to achieve this.
if your
still into vim you might want to have a look at http://eclim.org/
thats pretty awesome :)
I have to try this, especially the headless mode, thank
you :-)
However, it's not that I really like the Eclipse Java machinery. But I'm
currently forced to use it, and I have to witness that source refactoring for
function, class renaming, and a couple of other features are awesome.
I'll give a try to Eclim to see what it has to offer in this regard.
--
Olivier
--
torben Hohn
1:16 p.m.
New subject: Looking for an introduction to rt programming with a gui
On 05/25/2010 07:24 AM, torbenh wrote:
That's a problem.
But vim (7.2) omni completion may be the way to go for C:
:help ft-c-omni
"When using CTRL-X CTRL-O after something that has "." or "->"
Vim will attempt
to recognize the type of the variable and figure out what members it has.
This means only members valid for the variable will be listed."
That needs investigation.
Thanks for all ideas and resources :-)
--
Olivier
On Mon, May 24, 2010 at 11:37:32PM +0200, Olivier
Guilyardi wrote:
[...]
That makes me
think that the development environment can really completely
change the way you perceive a language or framework. There must be something to
do for C lovers too, be it in Eclipse or not. Maybe that's Eclim, or a lot of
Vim scripting (patching ?) that awaits me ;-)
eclim does a lint upon every :w
you instantly get marks to errors.
it pretty much does all the error hiliting that eclipse does too.
its basically just a different frontend to eclipse.
eclipse is running inside a nailgun server and vim communicates with
it via nailgun invocations.
it will probably work similarly if you use eclipse cdt.
but i prefer to have a real buildsystem with C++
and then eclipse doesnt know about your c files. 
9:10 p.m.
New subject: Looking for an introduction to rt programming with a gui
On Tue, May 25, 2010 at 07:24:20AM +0200, torbenh wrote:
Knowing what a huge productivity boost Eclipse gives for Java, I was a bit
underwhelmed by CDT - but perhaps I just somehow hadn't configured it
completely.
(Java 'haters' would argue that Java is just such a bad/verbose language that
you need the IDE, and IDE's are useless for proper languages. There's *some*
grain of truth there, but on the whole I don't buy it :) )
Arnout
This IDE with
all this syntax checking and refactoring tools (and I might call
them bells and whistles sometimes..) produces a real "added value".
That makes me think that the development environment can really completely
change the way you perceive a language or framework. There must be something to
do for C lovers too, be it in Eclipse or not.
it will probably work similarly if you use eclipse cdt.
but i prefer to have a real buildsystem with C++
and then eclipse doesnt know about your c files.
26 May
26 May
12:41 p.m.
New subject: Looking for an introduction to rt programming with a gui
On Tue, May 25, 2010 at 09:09:57PM +0200, Arnout Engelen wrote:
On Tue, May 25, 2010 at 07:24:20AM +0200, torbenh
wrote:
Knowing what a huge productivity boost Eclipse gives for Java, I was a bit
underwhelmed by CDT - but perhaps I just somehow hadn't configured it
completely.
yeah. i cant realize any productivity boost if you take the vi interface
from me :) but since eclim maps most of the eclipse stuff into vim
i could realize the boost.
eclipses editor doesnt feel snappy to me. the other threads doing the
linting and stuff are a bit annoying, i like how eclim only does linting
when i hit :w (which i do after almost every editing step by reflex :)
the most important thing is that you can cooperate with eclipse users
while still using vim.
This IDE
with all this syntax checking and refactoring tools (and I might call
them bells and whistles sometimes..) produces a real "added value".
That makes me think that the development environment can really completely
change the way you perceive a language or framework. There must be something to
do for C lovers too, be it in Eclipse or not.
it will probably work similarly if you use eclipse cdt.
but i prefer to have a real buildsystem with C++
and then eclipse doesnt know about your c files.
(Java 'haters' would argue that Java is just such a bad/verbose language that
you need the IDE, and IDE's are useless for proper languages. There's *some*
grain of truth there, but on the whole I don't buy it :) )
when writing code i find vims natural completion good enough most of the
time. what i am missing is a working "jump to definition" for ambiguous
method names, when reading code.
having instant linting is pretty helpful.
and using eclim certeinly improved my python productivity too.
Arnout
--
torben Hohn
5:19 p.m.
New subject: Looking for an introduction to rt programming with a gui
On 05/26/2010 12:39 PM, torbenh wrote:
On Tue, May 25, 2010 at 09:09:57PM +0200, Arnout
Engelen wrote:
> On Tue, May 25, 2010 at 07:24:20AM +0200, torbenh wrote:
>>> This IDE with all this syntax checking and refactoring tools (and I might
call
>>> them bells and whistles sometimes..) produces a real "added
value".
>>>
>>> That makes me think that the development environment can really completely
>>> change the way you perceive a language or framework. There must be something
to
>>> do for C lovers too, be it in Eclipse or not.
>> it will probably work similarly if you use eclipse cdt.
>> but i prefer to have a real buildsystem with C++
>> and then eclipse doesnt know about your c files.
> Knowing what a huge productivity boost Eclipse gives for Java, I was a bit
> underwhelmed by CDT - but perhaps I just somehow hadn't configured it
> completely.
My C files just looked as in notepad with CDT... I can't remember what it did
with C++.
yeah. i cant realize any productivity boost if you take the vi interface
from me :) but since eclim maps most of the eclipse stuff into vim
i could realize the boost.
eclipses editor doesnt feel snappy to me. the other threads doing the
linting and stuff are a bit annoying, i like how eclim only does linting
when i hit :w (which i do after almost every editing step by reflex :)
That's nice indeed. I don't like the way Eclipse won't let me type a dozen
characters without underlining everything in red, because it lints permanently.
the most important thing is that you can cooperate
with eclipse users
while still using vim.
> (Java 'haters' would argue that Java is just such a bad/verbose language
that
> you need the IDE, and IDE's are useless for proper languages. There's *some*
> grain of truth there, but on the whole I don't buy it :) )
Yes, there's some truth in that. I'm not sure that it comes from Java itself,
but maybe from Java culture and practices, which involve many classes for the
simpler operations, not to mention the verbose and long names.
I'm currently developing for Android in Java, and Eclipse is the /recommended/
way to go. But I realize that I'm slowing coming back to the command line,
learning the ant stuff and such ;) Especially since I'm writing a lot of native
code with the Android NDK (and vim ;).
when writing code i find vims natural completion good
enough most of the
time. what i am missing is a working "jump to definition" for ambiguous
method names, when reading code.
having instant linting is pretty helpful.
and using eclim certeinly improved my python productivity too.
I haven't tried eclim yet, since I'm doing C right now and AFAIK that won't
help.
But there's another thing that I also realized: after spending a few hours in
Eclipse, I found myself a bit "abandoned" in Vim, as if nobody was holding my
hand anymore ;-)
And that's where I think that productivity is not the whole point. There's
something great (and maybe beautiful) in writing without any aid, which makes
you learn and thus understand the language, libraries, and your own code better.
This could lean toward quality I believe...
Quality or productivity, that's the question ;)
--
Olivier
5292
days inactive
5294
days old
linux-audio-dev@lists.linuxaudio.org
11 comments
3 participants
participants (3)
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Arnout Engelen -
Olivier Guilyardi -
torbenh