2011/11/19 David Robillard &lt;d(a)drobilla.net&gt;et>: Well... it just happens that I just started a PhD and my research topic is about writing a new audio programming language. I was already considering whether to write a NPAPI plugin to be used in conjunction with the web audio API and having the audio code interpreted inside the browser in a real-time safe way, but this is not a priority at the moment. Of course, if there is people interested and/or somebody provides funding or anything valuable reaserch-wise, things get smoother. :-) However, apart from that, as Dave already knows, I am also experimenting heavily with HTML/CSS/JS GUIs these days, and sooner or later I hope to do work on a HTML GUI extension for LV2 plugins. The least related vapourware-talking I can do now is about two things I'm currently working on: a minimal layer (< 1k LOC) called "ino" above Qt/Webkit to write local application GUIs using web technologies and to do hybrid C/JS programming (no Qt or Webkit APIs are exposed however), and an LV2 effect rack host called "FreeADSP" whose GUI is ino-based. Both in heavy development and unreleased as of now, however if you want to take a look the code is here: http://hg.atheme.org/naspro/ . The ino library is basically completed for my current purposes (but still undocumented), while FreeADSP still misses most of the audio processing part, but already has nice PPM meters using HTML canvas, if you're interested. :-) However, the dream would be to combine all the things together: I mean, if one day we have LV2 plugins whose DSP part can be written in an interpreted audio language, and we have HTML plugin GUIs for LV2, and the web audio API starts being supported by most browsers (AFAIK, only Chrome supports it now), then I think an NPAPI plugin for "interpreted LV2 plugins" could be an option too (and perhaps even a better option)... Now I go back to the real world. :-P Stefano

On Sat, 2011-11-19 at 11:53 -0800, Iain Duncan wrote: [...] Yeah, it's moving extremely fast. Frankly you have to be pretty blind or stubborn to not realize that web tech is by far the safest UI investment at this point. That said, making something work in a browser is, at least for me (and presumably many around here), dramatically less of a pain than having to deal with Windows and Mac OS X directly. There is, of course, the option of simply not caring about other platforms and the irrelevance that comes with it, but the dramatically increased user base is nice for those of us that desperately cling to fantasies about getting enough donation money to survive off this libre audio software thing :) Given how easily and nicely you can stick webkit in anything these days, nobody even has to know it's actually HTML under the hood anyway (though for audio purposes, the remote control via tablet thing is too awesome to not want to provide to people) Indeed. Like it or not, that's what the browser is finally becoming. I wish the language was a bit less insane (I never look forward to the nightmare of developing in anything without a decent type system), but oh well. See above about user tangibles trumping petty developer gripes. -dr

On Sun, Nov 20, 2011 at 6:04 AM, &lt;hollunder(a)lavabit.com&gt; wrote: how would you deploy a Java app to an iPhone? or even to my desktop?

On Sun, Nov 20, 2011 at 8:49 AM, Neil C Smith &lt;neil(a)neilcsmith.net&gt; wrote: and therein lies the difference to: "visit http://your.domain.whatever/myCoolWebApp" <= ... and it runs! no install, no visible download. not huge, but as the browser gets to be a more and more capable platform, probably significant.

On 20 November 2011 13:58, Paul Davis &lt;paul(a)linuxaudiosystems.com&gt; wrote: I was responding more in the context of people earlier talking about embedding webkit for GUI's, not in the context of web / browser apps. Shipping an embedded JVM could mean that an application using Java could be shipped, cross-platform in the same way as any other native, installed software. And I personally don't see installed software going anywhere any time soon, particularly given the rising prevalence of the app store model. Browser platforms are definitely starting to get more capable, but doesn't a lot of the API mentioned at the beginning of this thread rely on native code underneath. I'm a little wary of this building block approach, though at least it is extensible - quite how much audio code would you want to write in JavaScript, and how much could you actually achieve in real-time? At the moment it would be possible to write the entire audio architecture and extensions in Java - one cross-platform code base running at near-native speed and low latency. I've no doubt JavaScript will get there, and I think it will be very interesting when it does. Mind you, I'm also slightly wary of this obsession with turning the browser into another OS - maybe I'm turning into an old fuddy-duddy! :-) Best wishes, Neil -- Neil C Smith Artist : Technologist : Adviser http://neilcsmith.net

Except that while java 6 stayed stable for several years it allowed people who just wanted to get things done and not have to worry about the constant hassle of dependencies and upgrades to work on improving the features of their software. However now that java 6 has been deprecated and Oracle is being so painful many people will move away from java. That still won't solve the problem of maintaining stability. It is nice to be able to easily compile and install software that has been recently updated on older machines that run perfectly well for everything else that they have been painstakingly setup to handle without having to completely rebuild the OS every 6 months to keep up with all the changes. Even installing jack on older systems can be a royal pita let alone all the older apps that are no longer working on newer versions of various systems due to the devs not keeping up with the latest advancements. Stability of a functioning build environment does have it's merits. -- Patrick Shirkey Boost Hardware Ltd

On Mon, 2011-11-21 at 10:26 +0000, Fons Adriaensen wrote: Naturally it's not perfect, but the billions of web pages out there that already exist, and continually multiply, forces them to be somewhat stable. It's certainly not the case that a well written standards conformant page is going to not work in a browser in 5 years. One things for sure, it's more stable than the next best thing. The numbers absolutely dwarf any other "platform" by several orders of magnitude. The dream of having a stable build environment is realistic because you don't need a stable build environment at all :) None of this hand-waving nonsense applies to what you personally do as a developer. The idea that you would be forced to somehow use proprietary extensions from the evil capitalists to force marketing down people's throats when using the browser as a platform and not even involving servers at all (let along other people's) is absurd. Non sequitur. Anyway, as you said above, building the perfect world is impossible, right? This applies to Linux too. Should we all just give up and go home, then? A discussion about technologies to use for writing audio UIs is obviously not OT, particularly when tablet UIs are a hot topic in music tech these days, and rightly so. Deranged paranoid rants about capitalism or whatever are pretty OT, though... -dr

Wrong. Android has the highest smart phones market share (Samsung alone became th largest smart phones producer in the world). It's recent news. -Giuseppe Il giorno 21/nov/2011 02:15, "David Robillard" &lt;d(a)drobilla.net&gt; ha scritto:

On Mon, 2011-11-21 at 02:44 +0100, Giuseppe Zompatori wrote: I said most popular smart phone, not most popular smart phone OS. Either way, apps require software installation which is vastly more of a PITA than anything you can just point your browser to, regardless of platform. Plus, the same UI works on any PC, iOS, blackberry, etc. Where does an Android Java UI work? Android. You're lucky if it works on all devices. The amount of effort it takes to write a nativeish UI for Windows, OSX, Lignux, Android, iOS (and whatever else) is absolutely massive. As you point out, this platform stuff changes practically monthly. Will Android be on top in 5 years? Who knows. Will Android even be relevant in 5 years? Who knows. Will whatever is on top be.. Java based? Native? .NET? Something that doesn't even exist yet? Who knows. Will whatever is on top, and every single thing competing with it, have a web browser? Yes. A dramatically faster and more powerful one that's still compatible with things you write today. Pretty obvious what the safe bet is, isn't it? -dr (Who actually values his time)