24 Aug
2004
24 Aug
'04
8:53 a.m.
Hi my name is Mark and I have been a silent member for two
years - having very little experience with the in's and out's of
Linux. For many years I have blindly believed that Linux is the
way to go - more because of the concept of Open Source which
ties in exactly with my own belief structure. I have supported
linux for years in the form of mail servers but my own knowing
has been lacking. Recently ( 2 months ago ) I reinstalled all my
systems without the comfort of partitioned disks and windows as
a safety net. To date I have re-installed my system close to ten
times. I am only now realizing that I may have a hdd problem or
hardware in general - although no errors are evident. I have a life
long ambition to make sound - to generate ecstacy - to move
energy - to drown people - to open portals of thought and
recreation to fly - to dream - to enlight. In reality I am stuck with
my finger on the reset button.
My setup - P4 - 256 ram - Slackware 10.0 - linux 2.6.7 -
My problem as an end user - is limitless - while the discussion
group handles issues like left or right up or down this or that it
seems as if you all live in Utopia with perfect systems. My
problems as a beginner are endless.
My linux thought is that the main difference between linux and
windows is that under windows everything is packaged i.e. that
one installation will actually get that desired product to work -
while under linux a lot more time is spent on finding the correct
patches mixes matches reading than end time using/producing.
Obviously linux has flexibility power stability way beyond the
confines of windows or mac but it is the tieing up of those 'loose
ends' which make it easier for a new user to get going that make
the ultimate difference. While windows users have licence issues
some linux users have other.
It matters little to me if one program does something in one way
as opposed to a different way in a different program - i.e. each
program is unique unto itself and should be learnt seperately. My
problem in this area has been to get them to work together or
through each other with results.
I return to my silent world of learning and eventually achieving in
linux but that's my two cents.
I believe in Linux and all that it stands for and wish no insult to
any. Thank you for this moment.
bye
Mark
Mark McBride
Cell 08 4414 6809
Tel.: +27 21 462 0044
Fax: +27 21 465 0277
Bitwise Computer systems
EMail : tech-support(a)bitwise.co.za
EMail : sales(a)bitwise.co.za
____________________________________________________________________________
The information in this e-mail is confidential and is intended solely for
the addressee. Access to this e-mail by anyone else is unauthorised. If
you are not the intended recipient, any disclosure, copying, distribution
or any action taken or omitted in reliance on this, is prohibited and may
be unlawful. Whilst all reasonable steps are taken to ensure the accuracy
and integrity of information and data, and to preserve the confidentiality
thereof, no liability or responsibility whatsoever is accepted if
information or data is corrupted or does not reach its intended destination.
KFM Radio (Pty) Ltd. will not accept responsibility for unauthorised use,
be it public or private, to express opinion, promote or demote individuals
or groups.
24 Aug
24 Aug
9:30 a.m.
Don't give up just yet!
On Tue, 24 Aug, 2004 at 12:38PM +0200, mark(a)kfm.co.za spake thus:
<snip>
energy - to drown people - to open portals of thought
and
Drown people? That's a Freedom that linux doesn't really give you.
<snip>
My linux thought is that the main difference between
linux and
windows is that under windows everything is packaged i.e. that
one installation will actually get that desired product to work -
while under linux a lot more time is spent on finding the correct
patches mixes matches reading than end time using/producing.
Obviously linux has flexibility power stability way beyond the
confines of windows or mac but it is the tieing up of those 'loose
ends' which make it easier for a new user to get going that make
the ultimate difference. While windows users have licence issues
some linux users have other.
I know where you're coming from. As an experienced user, I have no
problem with manually keeping a system udpated, patched ans running
smoothly. Generally, I know where problems that occurr are likely to
come from. The thing is, I don't want all that hassle. If I did,
I'd use LFS. Instead, I use Gentoo.
Gentoo isn't just for ricers. Personally, I find it has the nicest
package management (although that's probably not the best way to
describe it). I've also used Debian, but I still prefer Gentoo -
mainly because it's a little more configurable (like USE flags and
such) and it's a lot more up to date - Debian is safe, stable and
tested to death, Gentoo has regular updates to all components, and
still seems more stable than Debian Sid.
Now, I recommend you give Gentoo a try. Sure, there'll be some pain
- the install process consists of some instructions and a command
prompt - but it's worth it. For a start, you know how your system is
constructed to some degree. Secondly, installing stuff and keeping
stuff updated is a doddle. To install Jack, I type "emerge
jack-audio-connection-kit". When Jack gets updated, my system
updates next time I do an "emerge world". Thirdly, the documentation
is really nice and #gentoo on irc.freenode.net is a very helpful
channel.
Now, I know that other people will favour other distros. I know that
Gentoo isn't for everybody. But I like gentoo, and I think you
might, too.
Give it a whirl. If you're reinstalling all the time anyway, why not
try it out.
Have fun.
James
<snip>
--
"I'd crawl over an acre of 'Visual This++' and 'Integrated
Development
That' to get to gcc, Emacs, and gdb. Thank you."
(By Vance Petree, Virginia Power)
10:06 a.m.
Thanks for your support and I will give Gentoo a shot..
If I have learnt anything by re-installing it is that the second+ time
around one starts getting selective and soon a lot of things don't
seem as important by the third time around.
On 24 Aug 2004 at 12:17, james(a)dis-dot-dat.net wrote:
Don't give up just yet!
On Tue, 24 Aug, 2004 at 12:38PM +0200, mark(a)kfm.co.za spake thus:
<snip> > energy - to drown people - to open portals of thought and
Drown people? That's a Freedom that linux doesn't really give you.
I mean in terms of surround sound with flavour and depth ?>
<snip>
Be Well - Best wishes
Mark McBride
Cell 08 4414 6809
Tel.: +27 21 462 0044
Fax: +27 21 465 0277
Bitwise Computer systems
EMail : tech-support(a)bitwise.co.za
EMail : sales(a)bitwise.co.za
____________________________________________________________________________
The information in this e-mail is confidential and is intended solely for
the addressee. Access to this e-mail by anyone else is unauthorised. If
you are not the intended recipient, any disclosure, copying, distribution
or any action taken or omitted in reliance on this, is prohibited and may
be unlawful. Whilst all reasonable steps are taken to ensure the accuracy
and integrity of information and data, and to preserve the confidentiality
thereof, no liability or responsibility whatsoever is accepted if
information or data is corrupted or does not reach its intended destination.
KFM Radio (Pty) Ltd. will not accept responsibility for unauthorised use,
be it public or private, to express opinion, promote or demote individuals
or groups.
My linux thought is that the main difference
between linux and
windows is that under windows everything is packaged i.e. that one
installation will actually get that desired product to work - while
under linux a lot more time is spent on finding the correct patches
mixes matches reading than end time using/producing. Obviously linux
has flexibility power stability way beyond the confines of windows
or mac but it is the tieing up of those 'loose ends' which make it
easier for a new user to get going that make the ultimate
difference. While windows users have licence issues some linux users
have other.
I know where you're coming from. As an experienced user, I have no
problem with manually keeping a system udpated, patched ans running
smoothly. Generally, I know where problems that occurr are likely to
come from. The thing is, I don't want all that hassle. If I did, I'd
use LFS. Instead, I use Gentoo.
Gentoo isn't just for ricers. Personally, I find it has the nicest
package management (although that's probably not the best way to
describe it). I've also used Debian, but I still prefer Gentoo -
mainly because it's a little more configurable (like USE flags and
such) and it's a lot more up to date - Debian is safe, stable and
tested to death, Gentoo has regular updates to all components, and
still seems more stable than Debian Sid.
Now, I recommend you give Gentoo a try. Sure, there'll be some pain -
the install process consists of some instructions and a command prompt
- but it's worth it. For a start, you know how your system is
constructed to some degree. Secondly, installing stuff and keeping
stuff updated is a doddle. To install Jack, I type "emerge
jack-audio-connection-kit". When Jack gets updated, my system updates
next time I do an "emerge world". Thirdly, the documentation is
really nice and #gentoo on irc.freenode.net is a very helpful channel.
Now, I know that other people will favour other distros. I know that
Gentoo isn't for everybody. But I like gentoo, and I think you might,
too.
Give it a whirl. If you're reinstalling all the time anyway, why not
try it out.
Have fun.
James
<snip>
--
"I'd crawl over an acre of 'Visual This++' and 'Integrated
Development
That' to get to gcc, Emacs, and gdb. Thank you." (By Vance Petree,
Virginia Power) 
11:16 a.m.
On Tuesday 24 August 2004 13.50, mark(a)kfm.co.za wrote:
Thanks for your support and I will give Gentoo a
shot..
Hi Mark,
I have to disagree with this advice. Though gentoo will give you immense
insight into how things work and it's probably unparallelled performance I
would not consider it an operating system for a beginners.
I would, on similar grounds, also not recommend slackware...
They are both very competitive on their own merits but this does not include
ease of use/setup etc...
I defintely think you should try a binary-only distibution.
Fedora/Mandrake/Suse/Debian
---
Some concluding remarks.
This community, which I think works very well, is very much centered around
these mailinglists, to get things working you are much more likely to succeed
by asking here (though linux-audio-user would be more appropriate in this
case) than to bang your head against the wall on your own.
So... basically you are on the right track ;-).
/Robert
If I have learnt anything by re-installing it is that
the second+ time
around one starts getting selective and soon a lot of things don't
seem as important by the third time around.
On 24 Aug 2004 at 12:17, james(a)dis-dot-dat.net wrote:
--
http://spamatica.se/music/
Don't give up just yet!
On Tue, 24 Aug, 2004 at 12:38PM +0200, mark(a)kfm.co.za spake thus:
<snip> > energy - to drown people - to open portals of thought and
Drown people? That's a Freedom that linux doesn't really give you.
I mean in terms of surround sound with flavour and depth ?>
<snip>
Be Well - Best wishes
Mark McBride
Cell 08 4414 6809
Tel.: +27 21 462 0044
Fax: +27 21 465 0277
Bitwise Computer systems
EMail : tech-support(a)bitwise.co.za
EMail : sales(a)bitwise.co.za
___________________________________________________________________________
_ The information in this e-mail is confidential and is intended solely for
the addressee. Access to this e-mail by anyone else is unauthorised. If
you are not the intended recipient, any disclosure, copying, distribution
or any action taken or omitted in reliance on this, is prohibited and may
be unlawful. Whilst all reasonable steps are taken to ensure the accuracy
and integrity of information and data, and to preserve the confidentiality
thereof, no liability or responsibility whatsoever is accepted if
information or data is corrupted or does not reach its intended
destination. KFM Radio (Pty) Ltd. will not accept responsibility for
unauthorised use, be it public or private, to express opinion, promote or
demote individuals or groups. My linux thought is that the main difference
between linux and
windows is that under windows everything is packaged i.e. that one
installation will actually get that desired product to work - while
under linux a lot more time is spent on finding the correct patches
mixes matches reading than end time using/producing. Obviously linux
has flexibility power stability way beyond the confines of windows
or mac but it is the tieing up of those 'loose ends' which make it
easier for a new user to get going that make the ultimate
difference. While windows users have licence issues some linux users
have other.
I know where you're coming from. As an experienced user, I have no
problem with manually keeping a system udpated, patched ans running
smoothly. Generally, I know where problems that occurr are likely to
come from. The thing is, I don't want all that hassle. If I did, I'd
use LFS. Instead, I use Gentoo.
Gentoo isn't just for ricers. Personally, I find it has the nicest
package management (although that's probably not the best way to
describe it). I've also used Debian, but I still prefer Gentoo -
mainly because it's a little more configurable (like USE flags and
such) and it's a lot more up to date - Debian is safe, stable and
tested to death, Gentoo has regular updates to all components, and
still seems more stable than Debian Sid.
Now, I recommend you give Gentoo a try. Sure, there'll be some pain -
the install process consists of some instructions and a command prompt
- but it's worth it. For a start, you know how your system is
constructed to some degree. Secondly, installing stuff and keeping
stuff updated is a doddle. To install Jack, I type "emerge
jack-audio-connection-kit". When Jack gets updated, my system updates
next time I do an "emerge world". Thirdly, the documentation is
really nice and #gentoo on irc.freenode.net is a very helpful channel.
Now, I know that other people will favour other distros. I know that
Gentoo isn't for everybody. But I like gentoo, and I think you might,
too.
Give it a whirl. If you're reinstalling all the time anyway, why not
try it out.
Have fun.
James
<snip>
--
"I'd crawl over an acre of 'Visual This++' and 'Integrated
Development
That' to get to gcc, Emacs, and gdb. Thank you." (By Vance Petree,
Virginia Power)
1:40 p.m.
New subject: [linux-audio-dev] Thanks
Thanks for all your support - I am overwhelmed by your good
responses and excellent advice. I have also joined the other
distribution lists as recommended. The best news I have is the
lightness I feel at having posted. I know your time is precious and
thank you all the more. I have new hope and fresh determination.
Adios
MarkMark McBride
Cell 08 4414 6809
Tel.: +27 21 462 0044
Fax: +27 21 465 0277
Bitwise Computer systems
EMail : tech-support(a)bitwise.co.za
EMail : sales(a)bitwise.co.za
____________________________________________________________________________
The information in this e-mail is confidential and is intended solely for
the addressee. Access to this e-mail by anyone else is unauthorised. If
you are not the intended recipient, any disclosure, copying, distribution
or any action taken or omitted in reliance on this, is prohibited and may
be unlawful. Whilst all reasonable steps are taken to ensure the accuracy
and integrity of information and data, and to preserve the confidentiality
thereof, no liability or responsibility whatsoever is accepted if
information or data is corrupted or does not reach its intended destination.
KFM Radio (Pty) Ltd. will not accept responsibility for unauthorised use,
be it public or private, to express opinion, promote or demote individuals
or groups.
8:05 p.m.
Not meaning to start a war or nuthin', but...
On Tue, 24 Aug, 2004 at 02:55PM +0200, Robert Jonsson spake thus:
On Tuesday 24 August 2004 13.50, mark(a)kfm.co.za
wrote:
I recommend Gentoo still. Once it's set up, the package management
just works. And Debian is great, I agree. In fact, I used it for
over a year, but music software seems to go through many changes in a
short time and Debian stable just isn't up to date - and yes, I know
it;s not supposed to be. I also know about Sid - Debian Unstable.
And while it's a lot more stable than it's namesake, it's just not as
stable as Gentoo.
Another reason I prefer Gentoo to Debian - Debian can start stomping
it's feet and having fits at you if you mess with it too much.
Gentoo seems much more willing to accept thepoking that's sometimes
too hard to resist. YMMV, of course, but that's what made me switch
in the end. The same goes for Redhat and the others of that breed.
I didn't recommend Gentoo for it's performance, just it's niceness.
Thanks for your support and I will give Gentoo a
shot..
Hi Mark,
I have to disagree with this advice. Though gentoo will give you immense
insight into how things work and it's probably unparallelled performance I
would not consider it an operating system for a beginners.
I would, on similar grounds, also not recommend slackware... They are both very competitive on their own merits but
this does not include
ease of use/setup etc...
I defintely think you should try a binary-only distibution.
Fedora/Mandrake/Suse/Debian
This is sound advice, of course. I still say give Gentoo a chance.
Try installing it and if you get to instruction 3 or 4 and your head
hurts too much, then just go back to a binary distro. You're
reinstalling anyway, right? You might even find that it's not that
much of a hassle.
There's another post daring to point out that Gentoo isn't for
everybody*, but I see that one has been fielded by one of the other
followers.
*That's right, it's not for everybody. If it was, we couldn't be so
elitist and snobby about using it.
If all of the argument so far hasn't swayed you, try this:
Gent00 r0xx0r5 ur b0xx0rs.
Some concluding remarks.
This community, which I think works very well, is very much centered around
these mailinglists, to get things working you are much more likely to succeed
by asking here (though linux-audio-user would be more appropriate in this
case) than to bang your head against the wall on your own.
So... basically you are on the right track ;-).
/Robert
--
"I'd crawl over an acre of 'Visual This++' and 'Integrated
Development
That' to get to gcc, Emacs, and gdb. Thank you."
(By Vance Petree, Virginia Power)
If I have learnt anything by re-installing it is
that the second+ time
around one starts getting selective and soon a lot of things don't
seem as important by the third time around.
On 24 Aug 2004 at 12:17, james(a)dis-dot-dat.net wrote:
Don't give up just yet!
On Tue, 24 Aug, 2004 at 12:38PM +0200, mark(a)kfm.co.za spake thus:
<snip> > energy - to drown people - to open portals of thought and
Drown people? That's a Freedom that linux doesn't really give you.
I mean in terms of surround sound with flavour and depth ?>
<snip>
Be Well - Best wishes
Mark McBride
Cell 08 4414 6809
Tel.: +27 21 462 0044
Fax: +27 21 465 0277
Bitwise Computer systems
EMail : tech-support(a)bitwise.co.za
EMail : sales(a)bitwise.co.za
___________________________________________________________________________
_ The information in this e-mail is confidential and is intended solely for
the addressee. Access to this e-mail by anyone else is unauthorised. If
you are not the intended recipient, any disclosure, copying, distribution
or any action taken or omitted in reliance on this, is prohibited and may
be unlawful. Whilst all reasonable steps are taken to ensure the accuracy
and integrity of information and data, and to preserve the confidentiality
thereof, no liability or responsibility whatsoever is accepted if
information or data is corrupted or does not reach its intended
destination. KFM Radio (Pty) Ltd. will not accept responsibility for
unauthorised use, be it public or private, to express opinion, promote or
demote individuals or groups. My linux thought is that the main difference
between linux and
windows is that under windows everything is packaged i.e. that one
installation will actually get that desired product to work - while
under linux a lot more time is spent on finding the correct patches
mixes matches reading than end time using/producing. Obviously linux
has flexibility power stability way beyond the confines of windows
or mac but it is the tieing up of those 'loose ends' which make it
easier for a new user to get going that make the ultimate
difference. While windows users have licence issues some linux users
have other.
I know where you're coming from. As an experienced user, I have no
problem with manually keeping a system udpated, patched ans running
smoothly. Generally, I know where problems that occurr are likely to
come from. The thing is, I don't want all that hassle. If I did, I'd
use LFS. Instead, I use Gentoo.
Gentoo isn't just for ricers. Personally, I find it has the nicest
package management (although that's probably not the best way to
describe it). I've also used Debian, but I still prefer Gentoo -
mainly because it's a little more configurable (like USE flags and
such) and it's a lot more up to date - Debian is safe, stable and
tested to death, Gentoo has regular updates to all components, and
still seems more stable than Debian Sid.
Now, I recommend you give Gentoo a try. Sure, there'll be some pain -
the install process consists of some instructions and a command prompt
- but it's worth it. For a start, you know how your system is
constructed to some degree. Secondly, installing stuff and keeping
stuff updated is a doddle. To install Jack, I type "emerge
jack-audio-connection-kit". When Jack gets updated, my system updates
next time I do an "emerge world". Thirdly, the documentation is
really nice and #gentoo on irc.freenode.net is a very helpful channel.
Now, I know that other people will favour other distros. I know that
Gentoo isn't for everybody. But I like gentoo, and I think you might,
too.
Give it a whirl. If you're reinstalling all the time anyway, why not
try it out.
Have fun.
James
<snip>
11:24 a.m.
On Tue, Aug 24, 2004 at 09:50:55PM EST, mark(a)kfm.co.za wrote:
Thanks for your support and I will give Gentoo a
shot..
If I have learnt anything by re-installing it is that the second+ time
around one starts getting selective and soon a lot of things don't
seem as important by the third time around.
I don't mean to plug my own site here, but have you tried out AudioSlack? There
are packages for many apps up there all ready, and the hard work has been done
to make sure they work properly and install easily.
--
Luke Yelavich
http://www.audioslack.com
luke(a)audioslack.com
7:19 p.m.
Mark,
Try loading Fedora Core 1 - 100 MB /boot partition, 10GB /
partition, 2047MB swap, the rest of first disk as /audio or whatever.
Load "everything" in the package selection (there's an
"everything"
button - this is the coward's way out but you don't have dependency
hell). Go to Planet CCRMA
(http://ccrma.stanford.edu/planetccrma/software/)
and load up what you need. You'll get the low latency kernel and pretty
much anything else you might need there. This is the simplest way to
get started that I have seen. If you have problems just ask, someone
will be able to help. There is some good tuning info on the planet and
some more on my page - http://myweb.cableone.net/eviltwin69/
Good luck.
Jan
On Tue, 2004-08-24 at 06:50, mark(a)kfm.co.za wrote:
Thanks for your support and I will give Gentoo a
shot..
If I have learnt anything by re-installing it is that the second+ time
around one starts getting selective and soon a lot of things don't
seem as important by the third time around.
On 24 Aug 2004 at 12:17, james(a)dis-dot-dat.net wrote:
Don't give up just yet!
On Tue, 24 Aug, 2004 at 12:38PM +0200, mark(a)kfm.co.za spake thus:
<snip> > energy - to drown people - to open portals of thought and
Drown people? That's a Freedom that linux doesn't really give you.
I mean in terms of surround sound with flavour and depth ?>
<snip>
Be Well - Best wishes
Mark McBride
Cell 08 4414 6809
Tel.: +27 21 462 0044
Fax: +27 21 465 0277
Bitwise Computer systems
EMail : tech-support(a)bitwise.co.za
EMail : sales(a)bitwise.co.za
____________________________________________________________________________
The information in this e-mail is confidential and is intended solely for
the addressee. Access to this e-mail by anyone else is unauthorised. If
you are not the intended recipient, any disclosure, copying, distribution
or any action taken or omitted in reliance on this, is prohibited and may
be unlawful. Whilst all reasonable steps are taken to ensure the accuracy
and integrity of information and data, and to preserve the confidentiality
thereof, no liability or responsibility whatsoever is accepted if
information or data is corrupted or does not reach its intended destination.
KFM Radio (Pty) Ltd. will not accept responsibility for unauthorised use,
be it public or private, to express opinion, promote or demote individuals
or groups.
My linux thought is that the main difference
between linux and
windows is that under windows everything is packaged i.e. that one
installation will actually get that desired product to work - while
under linux a lot more time is spent on finding the correct patches
mixes matches reading than end time using/producing. Obviously linux
has flexibility power stability way beyond the confines of windows
or mac but it is the tieing up of those 'loose ends' which make it
easier for a new user to get going that make the ultimate
difference. While windows users have licence issues some linux users
have other.
I know where you're coming from. As an experienced user, I have no
problem with manually keeping a system udpated, patched ans running
smoothly. Generally, I know where problems that occurr are likely to
come from. The thing is, I don't want all that hassle. If I did, I'd
use LFS. Instead, I use Gentoo.
Gentoo isn't just for ricers. Personally, I find it has the nicest
package management (although that's probably not the best way to
describe it). I've also used Debian, but I still prefer Gentoo -
mainly because it's a little more configurable (like USE flags and
such) and it's a lot more up to date - Debian is safe, stable and
tested to death, Gentoo has regular updates to all components, and
still seems more stable than Debian Sid.
Now, I recommend you give Gentoo a try. Sure, there'll be some pain -
the install process consists of some instructions and a command prompt
- but it's worth it. For a start, you know how your system is
constructed to some degree. Secondly, installing stuff and keeping
stuff updated is a doddle. To install Jack, I type "emerge
jack-audio-connection-kit". When Jack gets updated, my system updates
next time I do an "emerge world". Thirdly, the documentation is
really nice and #gentoo on irc.freenode.net is a very helpful channel.
Now, I know that other people will favour other distros. I know that
Gentoo isn't for everybody. But I like gentoo, and I think you might,
too.
Give it a whirl. If you're reinstalling all the time anyway, why not
try it out.
Have fun.
James
<snip>
--
"I'd crawl over an acre of 'Visual This++' and 'Integrated
Development
That' to get to gcc, Emacs, and gdb. Thank you." (By Vance Petree,
Virginia Power) 
7:32 p.m.
On Tue, 2004-08-24 at 17:11, Jan Depner wrote:
Mark,
Try loading Fedora Core 1 - 100 MB /boot partition, 10GB /
partition, 2047MB swap, the rest of first disk as /audio or whatever.
Load "everything" in the package selection (there's an
"everything"
button - this is the coward's way out but you don't have dependency
hell). Go to Planet CCRMA
(http://ccrma.stanford.edu/planetccrma/software/)
and load up what you need. You'll get the low latency kernel and pretty
much anything else you might need there. This is the simplest way to
get started that I have seen. If you have problems just ask, someone
will be able to help. There is some good tuning info on the planet and
some more on my page - http://myweb.cableone.net/eviltwin69/
I recommend leaving plenty of unpartitioned space at first. This way,
if you decide whatever you try first is not right for you, or if you
just want to try another distribution, you can just make another 10GB
partition and install onto it. If you partition the entire disk when
you start, then you are basically stuck with whatever you try first,
unless you want to reinstall.
Once you are more comfortable with the setup this will also allow you to
do things like test different filesystems by copying your system to a
different partition.
Lee
5:58 p.m.
On Tuesday 24 August 2004 07:17 am, james(a)dis-dot-dat.net wrote:
Don't give up just yet!
On Tue, 24 Aug, 2004 at 12:38PM +0200, mark(a)kfm.co.za spake thus:
<snip>
I wasn't going to say anything till you said this. Yes, Gentoo has USE flags,
but Debian comes in more flavors than "stable". Unstable... I had KDE 3.3
and didn't realize it until I saw a /. announcement that it'd been released.
And I didn't have to wait around for 24 hrs while it was compiling.
This guy is lamenting not being able to spend his computer time doing
production. Gentoo is not an appropriate response to that.
If he wants to do the Gentoo thing, tuning it as a workstation is as good an
excuse as any to go for it though.
energy - to drown people - to open portals of
thought and
Drown people? That's a Freedom that linux doesn't really give you.
<snip>
My linux thought is that the main difference
between linux and
windows is that under windows everything is packaged i.e. that
one installation will actually get that desired product to work -
while under linux a lot more time is spent on finding the correct
patches mixes matches reading than end time using/producing.
Obviously linux has flexibility power stability way beyond the
confines of windows or mac but it is the tieing up of those 'loose
ends' which make it easier for a new user to get going that make
the ultimate difference. While windows users have licence issues
some linux users have other.
I know where you're coming from. As an experienced user, I have no
problem with manually keeping a system udpated, patched ans running
smoothly. Generally, I know where problems that occurr are likely to
come from. The thing is, I don't want all that hassle. If I did,
I'd use LFS. Instead, I use Gentoo.
Gentoo isn't just for ricers. Personally, I find it has the nicest
package management (although that's probably not the best way to
describe it). I've also used Debian, but I still prefer Gentoo -
mainly because it's a little more configurable (like USE flags and
such) and it's a lot more up to date - Debian is safe, stable and
tested to death, Gentoo has regular updates to all components, and
still seems more stable than Debian Sid.
Now, I recommend you give Gentoo a try. Sure, there'll be some pain - the install process consists of some instructions
and a command
prompt - but it's worth it. For a start, you know how your system is
constructed to some degree. Secondly, installing stuff and keeping
stuff updated is a doddle. To install Jack, I type "emerge
jack-audio-connection-kit". When Jack gets updated, my system
updates next time I do an "emerge world". Thirdly, the documentation
is really nice and #gentoo on irc.freenode.net is a very helpful
channel.
And how long does that take vs apt-get update && apt-get dist upgrade?
Take all the milliseconds you shave with flags and deduct 'em from the build
time and pig-dog slowness of a package management system that runs on an
interpreter, then amortize that against the runlevel average.
I've tried playing quake to kill time waiting for an update to build. ;)
It's a dubious argument.
Now, I know that other people will favour other
distros. I know that
Gentoo isn't for everybody. But I like gentoo, and I think you
might, too.
It does rock pretty hard, it's just a big commitment. It could be the
right answer, but not to this particular question.
Give it a whirl. If you're reinstalling all the
time anyway, why not
try it out.
Have fun.
James
<snip>
7:08 p.m.
On Tue, Aug 24, 2004 at 03:41:17PM -0400, John Check wrote:
And how long does that take vs apt-get update
&& apt-get dist upgrade?
Take all the milliseconds you shave with flags and deduct 'em from the build
time and pig-dog slowness of a package management system that runs on an
interpreter,
Them's fightin' words :-P
I've never found the "pig-dog slowness" of portage to be significant
whatsoever. It's completely dwarfed by
I don't care about the supposed optimizations, I've never noticed
whether gentoo is any faster or what.
The things I like are:
1) It Just Works.
Dunno if it's my increased experience or gentoo or what, but in the
past year I've had fewer complaints with my two gentoo boxes than
anything else I've tried.
I ran RH 4-7, followed by 2 years of Debian (i tried
stable, which was really stable but really ancient; unstable, which
was pretty current but became unbootable after updates twice;
then testing, which went unbootable after updates once, after which
I was done.)
2) For those times I want something bleeding edge from a tarball that's
not in the distro yet, it's trivial to tell portage "don't worry,
I've got it covered" and still be able to emerge other stuff that
depends on it. I did this routinely with alsa and jack for a few
months when gentoo was lagging a bit behind some of the bleeding-edge
LAD stuff. Worked flawlessly everty time I did it.
E.g. if gentoo is still on jack 0.94 and I want to install a hypothetical
0.99 from source, all I do is build and install the tarball, then do
emerge inject media-sound/jack-audio-connection-kit-0.99
--
Paul Winkler
http://www.slinkp.com
7:50 p.m.
On Tue, Aug 24, 2004 at 04:52:05PM -0400, Paul Winkler wrote:
On Tue, Aug 24, 2004 at 03:41:17PM -0400, John Check
wrote:
... i meant to finish that line :-)
It's completely dwarfed by compile time.
The main inconvenience of gentoo that I've noticed is that
I've had to train myself not to do upgrades right before I want
to do some work :-)
--
Paul Winkler
http://www.slinkp.com
And how long does that take vs apt-get update
&& apt-get dist upgrade?
Take all the milliseconds you shave with flags and deduct 'em from the build
time and pig-dog slowness of a package management system that runs on an
interpreter,
Them's fightin' words :-P
I've never found the "pig-dog slowness" of portage to be significant
whatsoever. It's completely dwarfed by
8:51 p.m.
On Tuesday 24 August 2004 05:34 pm, Paul Winkler wrote:
On Tue, Aug 24, 2004 at 04:52:05PM -0400, Paul Winkler
wrote:
Are you sure you wanted to say that ;)
On Tue, Aug 24, 2004 at 03:41:17PM -0400, John
Check wrote:
... i meant to finish that line :-)
It's completely dwarfed by compile time.
And how long does that take vs apt-get update
&& apt-get dist upgrade?
Take all the milliseconds you shave with flags and deduct 'em from the
build time and pig-dog slowness of a package management system that
runs on an interpreter,
Them's fightin' words :-P
I've never found the "pig-dog slowness" of portage to be significant
whatsoever. It's completely dwarfed by The main inconvenience of gentoo that I've noticed
is that
I've had to train myself not to do upgrades right before I want
to do some work :-)
Hey, I loved it when I was using it, especially being able to have the package
system know about CVS builds, but what killed it for me was; I did exactly
that, then like a dumbass did it one last time when it finished, figuring
"what the hell, there couldn't be any more major updates". Wrong - one the
updates in the batch that took 2 days to build got rolled back, and since
there's no binaries, I had to spend another day rolling it back. It wasn't
the first time either. If you have a build host and a bunch of homogenous
hosts, it's great. IMO with a single host, even on really fast hardware it's
on the wrong side of the law of diminishing returns. Then again, I'll have to
check that when I get some really fast hardware :P
10:12 p.m.
On Tue, Aug 24, 2004 at 06:35:12PM -0400, John Check wrote:
Are you sure you wanted to say that ;)
Yes. First rule of optimization: don't optimize something that's
statistically irrelevant. The speed or lack thereof of portage
is irrelevant given that its intended purpose is fetch source code
across a network and then compile and install it.
It's only an issue if the user interface (emerge) "feels" slow
and I've never noticed it.
--
Paul Winkler
http://www.slinkp.com
It's completely dwarfed by compile time.
11:37 p.m.
On Tuesday 24 August 2004 07:56 pm, Paul Winkler wrote:
On Tue, Aug 24, 2004 at 06:35:12PM -0400, John Check
wrote:
Yes. First rule of optimization: don't optimize something that's
statistically irrelevant. The speed or lack thereof of portage
is irrelevant given that its intended purpose is fetch source code
across a network and then compile and install it.
It's only an issue if the user interface (emerge) "feels" slow
and I've never noticed it.
What's that quote about "lies, damn lies and statistics"? ;)
I'm talking about the time to parse the package tree mainly. When I first
installed it early '02 compared to when I got fed up a year later, my
impression was is slowed up, but I didn't have the foresight to time it.
To me, anytime spent waiting counts, but it's not worth quibbling over.
>
It's completely dwarfed by compile time.
Are you sure you wanted to say that ;) 
25 Aug
25 Aug
6:14 a.m.
On Tue, 24 Aug 2004 19:56:27 -0400
Paul Winkler <pw_lists(a)slinkp.com> wrote:
On Tue, Aug 24, 2004 at 06:35:12PM -0400, John Check
wrote:
Are you sure you wanted to say that ;)
Yes. First rule of optimization: don't optimize something that's
statistically irrelevant.
<vent=11/10>
I wish that attitude was more prevalent in the ricer community.
I've been getting emails from a Gentoo ricer suggesting a whole
bunch of "optimisations" for libsndfile. A small number of these
were valid, but the vast majority were not measurably faster as
measured by the benchmark program shipped with libsndfile.
</vent>
Erik
--
+-----------------------------------------------------------+
Erik de Castro Lopo nospam(a)mega-nerd.com (Yes it's valid)
+-----------------------------------------------------------+
"The X-files is too optimistic. The truth is not out there."
-- Anthony Ord
It's completely dwarfed by compile time.
9:17 a.m.
On Wed, 25 Aug, 2004 at 05:58PM +1000, Erik de Castro Lopo spake thus:
On Tue, 24 Aug 2004 19:56:27 -0400
Paul Winkler <pw_lists(a)slinkp.com> wrote:
I appologise on behalf of all Gentooers. It really isn't just for
ricers, they just seem to shout loudest sometimes.
In fact, the real power of Gentoo when it comes to speed aren't these
micro-optimisations and hardcore gcc flag tuning, it's the ability to
remove certain things completely. You don't use Gnome? Well, gentoo
won't compile gnome support into your apps. There are lots and lots
of these things and they do make a difference. It's also much easier
to swap out bits of your OS - replace xfree with x.org, faster
lighter tty gubbins, etc.
Personally, I don't bother, but that's where the real speed
differences come from. Absolutely nothing is installed unless you
need it or asked for it. No daemons floating around "just in case".
Anyway, I think I'll stop now. If anyone knows where that article
about the two emacs users comparing their systems is, please send me
a link.
James
On Tue, Aug 24, 2004 at 06:35:12PM -0400, John
Check wrote:
Yes. First rule of optimization: don't optimize something that's
statistically irrelevant.
<vent=11/10>
I wish that attitude was more prevalent in the ricer community.
I've been getting emails from a Gentoo ricer suggesting a whole
bunch of "optimisations" for libsndfile. A small number of these
were valid, but the vast majority were not measurably faster as
measured by the benchmark program shipped with libsndfile.
</vent> >
It's completely dwarfed by compile time.
Are you sure you wanted to say that ;) Erik
--
"I'd crawl over an acre of 'Visual This++' and 'Integrated
Development
That' to get to gcc, Emacs, and gdb. Thank you."
(By Vance Petree, Virginia Power)
4:05 p.m.
On Wednesday 25 August 2004 07:04 am, james(a)dis-dot-dat.net wrote:
On Wed, 25 Aug, 2004 at 05:58PM +1000, Erik de Castro
Lopo spake thus:
YES. This is a much better argument. If it wasn't for having to keep a source
respository (maybe it's optional) that would save disk space. I used to mount
the cache on an NFS share (only had a 20GB disk). Now if I had an office full
of clones and a build host, that's as good as it gets.
On Tue, 24 Aug 2004 19:56:27 -0400
Paul Winkler <pw_lists(a)slinkp.com> wrote:
I appologise on behalf of all Gentooers. It really isn't just for
ricers, they just seem to shout loudest sometimes.
In fact, the real power of Gentoo when it comes to speed aren't these
micro-optimisations and hardcore gcc flag tuning, it's the ability to
remove certain things completely. You don't use Gnome? Well, gentoo
won't compile gnome support into your apps. There are lots and lots
of these things and they do make a difference. It's also much easier
to swap out bits of your OS - replace xfree with x.org, faster
lighter tty gubbins, etc.
On Tue, Aug 24, 2004 at 06:35:12PM -0400, John
Check wrote:
<vent=11/10>
I wish that attitude was more prevalent in the ricer community.
I've been getting emails from a Gentoo ricer suggesting a whole
bunch of "optimisations" for libsndfile. A small number of these
were valid, but the vast majority were not measurably faster as
measured by the benchmark program shipped with libsndfile.
</vent> > > It's completely dwarfed by compile
time.
Are you sure you wanted to say that ;)
Yes. First rule of optimization: don't optimize something that's
statistically irrelevant. Personally, I don't bother, but that's where
the real speed
differences come from. Absolutely nothing is installed unless you
need it or asked for it. No daemons floating around "just in case".
Also a cogent point.
Anyway, I think I'll stop now. If anyone knows
where that article
about the two emacs users comparing their systems is, please send me
a link.
James
> Erik
Me Too!
4:54 p.m.
On Wed, 25 Aug, 2004 at 01:48PM -0400, John Check spake thus:
<snip multiple levels of replies>
--
"I'd crawl over an acre of 'Visual This++' and 'Integrated
Development
That' to get to gcc, Emacs, and gdb. Thank you."
(By Vance Petree, Virginia Power)
YES. This is a much better argument. If it wasn't
for having to keep a source
respository (maybe it's optional) that would save disk space. I used to mount
the cache on an NFS share (only had a 20GB disk).
I was going to say you could have a cron job that ran when nobody's
likely to be using the machine that first checks to see if anything's
being emerged and then deletes the source cache. But then I realised
two things.
Thing 1: People will moan "But a newbie wouldn't want to mess..."
Thing 2: Now that I think about it, I think there may be an option to
remove source tarballs when they've been used. I don't
worry about disk space, so I've never looked into it.
Now if I had an office full
of clones and a build host, that's as good as it gets.
If you're anything but a total newbie (and I doubt you are) then you
can get some serious improvement in emerge times by using distcc.
Does that sound complicated? Here's how you do it.
1. Emerge distcc and configure it with distcc-config. It's easy,
honest.
2. In /etc/make.conf, add -jN to your MAKEOPTS. N is the number of
simultaneous compilings you want. It is suggested you use 2C+1,
where C is the number of CPUs you're using. This goes for
non-distcc systems, too, unless you have old hardware.
3. In the same file, add "distcc" to your FEATURES variable.
A more detailed how-to: http://www.gentoo.org/doc/en/distcc.xml
I used this for a while, but my other machine is too noisy to leave
on (It's a HP Kayak xeon thing - the chassis is made of lead or
something I think, and the fans sound like a vaccum cleaner) and my
GF insists on using Windows. Not just any old windows, either -
Windows ME.
<ricer>
Maybe when I'm rich and have a herd of boxen, I'll do it again. If
for nothing else than to stand in the middle of the room and scream
"The POWER! The sweet intoxicating POWWWWEEEEEER!".
</ricer>
Personally, I
don't bother, but that's where the real speed
differences come from. Absolutely nothing is installed unless you
need it or asked for it. No daemons floating around "just in case".
Also a cogent point.
Anyway, I think I'll stop now. If anyone
knows where that article
about the two emacs users comparing their systems is, please send me
a link.
James
> Erik
Me Too!
5:30 p.m.
On Wednesday 25 August 2004 02:41 pm, james(a)dis-dot-dat.net wrote:
On Wed, 25 Aug, 2004 at 01:48PM -0400, John Check
spake thus:
<snip multiple levels of replies>
Newbie is beside the point. If somebody wants to make some tunage,
it gets in the way of getting started.
YES. This is a much better argument. If it
wasn't for having to keep a
source respository (maybe it's optional) that would save disk space. I
used to mount the cache on an NFS share (only had a 20GB disk).
I was going to say you could have a cron job that ran when nobody's
likely to be using the machine that first checks to see if anything's
being emerged and then deletes the source cache. But then I realised
two things.
Thing 1: People will moan "But a newbie wouldn't want to mess..."
Thing 2: Now that I think about it, I think there may be an option to
remove source tarballs when they've been used. I don't
worry about disk space, so I've never looked into it.
apt-get install distcc
Took < 30 seconds. ;)
There's no way to get around it; To get all the advantages, you have to
invest significant time to reach peak performance.
Not to mention it blows the "software is free to produce" meme.
It takes a lot more energy to compile a binary than it does to copy it.
I'm not a tree hugger, but you can't argue with the physics.
Now if I had an office full
of clones and a build host, that's as good as it gets.
If you're anything but a total newbie (and I doubt you are) then you
can get some serious improvement in emerge times by using distcc.
Does that sound complicated? Here's how you do it.
1. Emerge distcc and configure it with distcc-config. It's easy,
honest. 2. In /etc/make.conf, add -jN to your MAKEOPTS. N is
the number of
simultaneous compilings you want. It is suggested you use 2C+1,
where C is the number of CPUs you're using. This goes for
non-distcc systems, too, unless you have old hardware.
3. In the same file, add "distcc" to your FEATURES variable.
A more detailed how-to: http://www.gentoo.org/doc/en/distcc.xml
Yawn. I used to hack 2.0 kernel makefiles to speed the build up the same way,
but N was RAM-8/8. Either way, if the number of things that can be build
concurrently is =< N , higher get you nothing.
The real irony is the machines that could benefit most are the most expensive
ones to build on.
In their own doco, they say it's a build system (a damn fine one IMO) and IIRC
they'd like to see it used for tasked tuned distro production.
I used this for a while, but my other machine is too
noisy to leave
on (It's a HP Kayak xeon thing - the chassis is made of lead or
something I think, and the fans sound like a vaccum cleaner) and my
GF insists on using Windows. Not just any old windows, either -
Windows ME.
<ricer>
Maybe when I'm rich and have a herd of boxen, I'll do it again. If
for nothing else than to stand in the middle of the room and scream
"The POWER! The sweet intoxicating POWWWWEEEEEER!".
</ricer>
> > Personally, I don't bother, but that's where the real speed
> > differences come from. Absolutely nothing is installed unless you
> > need it or asked for it. No daemons floating around "just in case".
>
> Also a cogent point.
>
> > Anyway, I think I'll stop now. If anyone knows where that article
> > about the two emacs users comparing their systems is, please send me
> > a link.
> >
> > James
> >
> > > Erik
>
> Me Too!
6:03 p.m.
On Wed, 25 Aug, 2004 at 03:13PM -0400, John Check spake thus:
--
"I'd crawl over an acre of 'Visual This++' and 'Integrated
Development
That' to get to gcc, Emacs, and gdb. Thank you."
(By Vance Petree, Virginia Power)
On Wednesday 25 August 2004 02:41 pm,
james(a)dis-dot-dat.net wrote:
No, and I haven't. This was just a response to the previous post
about needing multiple machines to get serious gains. Distcc does
make a difference, though not necessarily enough to warrant the
effort. I don't even use it myself, although I have played with it.
Anyway, I don't really want to sound like I'm advocating any of the
tricls.techniques for more speed. What I erally wanted to say when I
started all this Gentoo discussion is this: I think it has the best
package management system for linux there is. Debian comes second,
for reasons I've already stated a couple of times.
I also think that apart from the installation, Gentoo is the easiest
system to use. And by use, I mean installing/removing software,
updating and such - after that, all distros are pretty much identical.
This is just my opinion.
I also think Gentoo is faster. Again, for the reasons I've already
stated - namely, not because it's source compiled, but because you
have what you want and need, not what you might need, possibly, some
time in the future. This also means you only upgrade what you need,
unlike on a, say, redhat/fedora system, where all that extra software
might get updated too.
Really, a gentoo system is like a record of its user - all the
software installed has been installed because the user wanted it, or
needed it. There isn't really any chaff.
On Wed, 25 Aug, 2004 at 01:48PM -0400, John Check
spake thus:
<snip multiple levels of replies>
Newbie is beside the point. If somebody wants to make some tunage,
it gets in the way of getting started.
YES. This is a much better argument. If it
wasn't for having to keep a
source respository (maybe it's optional) that would save disk space. I
used to mount the cache on an NFS share (only had a 20GB disk).
I was going to say you could have a cron job that ran when nobody's
likely to be using the machine that first checks to see if anything's
being emerged and then deletes the source cache. But then I realised
two things.
Thing 1: People will moan "But a newbie wouldn't want to mess..."
Thing 2: Now that I think about it, I think there may be an option to
remove source tarballs when they've been used. I don't
worry about disk space, so I've never looked into it.
apt-get install distcc
Took < 30 seconds. ;)
There's no way to get around it; To get all the advantages, you have to
invest significant time to reach peak performance.
Not to mention it blows the "software is free to produce" meme.
It takes a lot more energy to compile a binary than it does to copy it.
I'm not a tree hugger, but you can't argue with the physics. Now if I had an office full
of clones and a build host, that's as good as it gets.
If you're anything but a total newbie (and I doubt you are) then you
can get some serious improvement in emerge times by using distcc.
Does that sound complicated? Here's how you do it.
1. Emerge distcc and configure it with distcc-config. It's easy,
honest. 2. In
/etc/make.conf, add -jN to your MAKEOPTS. N is the number of
simultaneous compilings you want. It is suggested you use 2C+1,
where C is the number of CPUs you're using. This goes for
non-distcc systems, too, unless you have old hardware.
3. In the same file, add "distcc" to your FEATURES variable.
A more detailed how-to: http://www.gentoo.org/doc/en/distcc.xml
Yawn. I used to hack 2.0 kernel makefiles to speed the build up the same way,
but N was RAM-8/8. Either way, if the number of things that can be build
concurrently is =< N , higher get you nothing.
The real irony is the machines that could benefit most are the most expensive
ones to build on.
In their own doco, they say it's a build system (a damn fine one IMO) and IIRC
they'd like to see it used for tasked tuned distro production.
I used this for a while, but my other machine is
too noisy to leave
on (It's a HP Kayak xeon thing - the chassis is made of lead or
something I think, and the fans sound like a vaccum cleaner) and my
GF insists on using Windows. Not just any old windows, either -
Windows ME.
<ricer>
Maybe when I'm rich and have a herd of boxen, I'll do it again. If
for nothing else than to stand in the middle of the room and scream
"The POWER! The sweet intoxicating POWWWWEEEEEER!".
</ricer>
> > Personally, I don't bother, but that's where the real speed
> > differences come from. Absolutely nothing is installed unless you
> > need it or asked for it. No daemons floating around "just in case".
>
> Also a cogent point.
>
> > Anyway, I think I'll stop now. If anyone knows where that article
> > about the two emacs users comparing their systems is, please send me
> > a link.
> >
> > James
> >
> > > Erik
>
> Me Too!
26 Aug
26 Aug
7:28 p.m.
On Wednesday 25 August 2004 03:50 pm, james(a)dis-dot-dat.net wrote:
On Wed, 25 Aug, 2004 at 03:13PM -0400, John Check
spake thus:
What I meant specifically was if you make binary packages on a build host and
roll out updates that way it's the best of all possible worlds.
On Wednesday 25 August 2004 02:41 pm,
james(a)dis-dot-dat.net wrote:
No, and I haven't. This was just a response to the previous post
about needing multiple machines to get serious gains. Distcc does
make a difference, though not necessarily enough to warrant the
effort. I don't even use it myself, although I have played with it. On Wed, 25 Aug, 2004 at 01:48PM -0400, John Check
spake thus:
<snip multiple levels of replies>
Newbie is beside the point. If somebody wants to make some tunage,
it gets in the way of getting started.
YES. This is a much better argument. If it
wasn't for having to keep
a source respository (maybe it's optional) that would save disk
space. I used to mount the cache on an NFS share (only had a 20GB
disk).
I was going to say you could have a cron job that ran when nobody's
likely to be using the machine that first checks to see if anything's
being emerged and then deletes the source cache. But then I realised
two things.
Thing 1: People will moan "But a newbie wouldn't want to mess..." Thing 2: Now that I think about it, I think there
may be an option to
remove source tarballs when they've been used. I don't
worry about disk space, so I've never looked into it.
apt-get install distcc
Took < 30 seconds. ;)
There's no way to get around it; To get all the advantages, you have to
invest significant time to reach peak performance.
Not to mention it blows the "software is free to produce" meme.
It takes a lot more energy to compile a binary than it does to copy it.
I'm not a tree hugger, but you can't argue with the physics. Now if I had an office full
of clones and a build host, that's as good as it gets.
If you're anything but a total newbie (and I doubt you are) then you
can get some serious improvement in emerge times by using distcc.
Does that sound complicated? Here's how you do it.
1. Emerge distcc and configure it with distcc-config. It's easy,
honest.
Anyway, I don't really want to sound like I'm advocating any of the
tricls.techniques for more speed. What I erally wanted to say when I
started all this Gentoo discussion is this: I think it has the best
package management system for linux there is. Debian comes second,
for reasons I've already stated a couple of times.
Other than being implemented in Python, I have to agree. I have no beef with
Python per se, just it's appropriateness for the task.
I also think that apart from the installation, Gentoo
is the easiest
system to use. And by use, I mean installing/removing software,
updating and such - after that, all distros are pretty much identical.
I dunno, it's on par with Debian. Good package management is one of the
founding principals of Debian.
I can make a case for emerge world && emerge system being ways to address
compile time requirements, but that's about the only advantage I can think of
for emerge.
This is just my opinion.
I also think Gentoo is faster. Again, for the reasons I've already
stated - namely, not because it's source compiled, but because you
have what you want and need, not what you might need, possibly, some
time in the future. This also means you only upgrade what you need,
unlike on a, say, redhat/fedora system, where all that extra software
might get updated too.
That's what I felt when I switched to Debian, but honestly, I'm not in that
much of a hurry. ;)
Really, a gentoo system is like a record of its user -
all the
software installed has been installed because the user wanted it, or
needed it. There isn't really any chaff.
If it sucked, nobody would use it.
> > 2. In /etc/make.conf, add -jN to your MAKEOPTS. N is the number of
> > simultaneous compilings you want. It is suggested you use 2C+1,
> > where C is the number of CPUs you're using. This goes for
> > non-distcc systems, too, unless you have old hardware.
> > 3. In the same file, add "distcc" to your FEATURES variable.
> >
> > A more detailed how-to: http://www.gentoo.org/doc/en/distcc.xml
>
> Yawn. I used to hack 2.0 kernel makefiles to speed the build up the same
> way, but N was RAM-8/8. Either way, if the number of things that can be
> build concurrently is =< N , higher get you nothing.
> The real irony is the machines that could benefit most are the most
> expensive ones to build on.
>
> In their own doco, they say it's a build system (a damn fine one IMO) and
> IIRC they'd like to see it used for tasked tuned distro production.
>
> > I used this for a while, but my other machine is too noisy to leave
> > on (It's a HP Kayak xeon thing - the chassis is made of lead or
> > something I think, and the fans sound like a vaccum cleaner) and my
> > GF insists on using Windows. Not just any old windows, either -
> > Windows ME.
> >
> > <ricer>
> > Maybe when I'm rich and have a herd of boxen, I'll do it again. If
> > for nothing else than to stand in the middle of the room and scream
> > "The POWER! The sweet intoxicating POWWWWEEEEEER!".
> > </ricer>
> >
> > > > Personally, I don't bother, but that's where the real speed
> > > > differences come from. Absolutely nothing is installed unless you
> > > > need it or asked for it. No daemons floating around "just in
> > > > case".
> > >
> > > Also a cogent point.
> > >
> > > > Anyway, I think I'll stop now. If anyone knows where that
article
> > > > about the two emacs users comparing their systems is, please send
> > > > me a link.
> > > >
> > > > James
> > > >
> > > > > Erik
> > >
> > > Me Too!
25 Aug
25 Aug
3:59 p.m.
On Wednesday 25 August 2004 03:58 am, Erik de Castro Lopo wrote:
On Tue, 24 Aug 2004 19:56:27 -0400
Paul Winkler <pw_lists(a)slinkp.com> wrote:
HAH Don't worry, they all get bit eventually.
Can't say I blame 'em, she's a hot little monkey ;D
On Tue, Aug 24, 2004 at 06:35:12PM -0400, John
Check wrote:
Yes. First rule of optimization: don't optimize something that's
statistically irrelevant.
<vent=11/10>
I wish that attitude was more prevalent in the ricer community.
I've been getting emails from a Gentoo ricer suggesting a whole
bunch of "optimisations" for libsndfile. A small number of these
were valid, but the vast majority were not measurably faster as
measured by the benchmark program shipped with libsndfile.
</vent>
Erik >
It's completely dwarfed by compile time.
Are you sure you wanted to say that ;) 
24 Aug
24 Aug
12:01 p.m.
My linux thought is that the main difference between
linux and
windows is that under windows everything is packaged i.e. that
one installation will actually get that desired product to work -
this isn't really true. just drop by any of the windows-centric audio
forums on the web - people have problems all the time with their
installation of nuendo, sonar, cubase, protools etc. etc.
while under linux a lot more time is spent on finding
the correct
patches mixes matches reading than end time using/producing.
this is a recognized problem, and people have been working on it for a
couple of years. if you switch to a linux distribution or
distribution+addon that specializes in multimedia, its arguably easier
to install whatever audio/video sofware exists than it is under
windows. i use planet ccrma on top of fedora to make my life much
easier, even though i am a full time developer.
the remaining weak points for linux are the state of driver
support and kernel latency handling. not whether we have drivers, but
how well they work. there are many hardware configurations that seem
to work well enough under windows but are mostly useless under linux.
--p
5:43 p.m.
On Tuesday 24 August 2004 06:38 am, mark(a)kfm.co.za wrote:
Hi my name is Mark and I have been a silent member for
two
years - having very little experience with the in's and out's of
Linux. For many years I have blindly believed that Linux is the
way to go - more because of the concept of Open Source which
ties in exactly with my own belief structure. I have supported
linux for years in the form of mail servers but my own knowing
has been lacking. Recently ( 2 months ago ) I reinstalled all my
systems without the comfort of partitioned disks and windows as
a safety net. To date I have re-installed my system close to ten
times. I am only now realizing that I may have a hdd problem or
hardware in general - although no errors are evident. I have a life
long ambition to make sound - to generate ecstacy - to move
Hey now!
energy - to drown people - to open portals of thought
and
recreation to fly - to dream - to enlight. In reality I am stuck with
my finger on the reset button.
My setup - P4 - 256 ram - Slackware 10.0 - linux 2.6.7 -
My problem as an end user - is limitless - while the discussion
group handles issues like left or right up or down this or that it
seems as if you all live in Utopia with perfect systems. My
problems as a beginner are endless.
My linux thought is that the main difference between linux and
windows is that under windows everything is packaged i.e. that
one installation will actually get that desired product to work -
while under linux a lot more time is spent on finding the correct
patches mixes matches reading than end time using/producing.
"patch" in what sense? Also, package has some subtleties.
The ultimate package of course is one you just plug in and turn on.
Really, if you buy software anyway, the "right thing to do" is support
development by patronizing what ever business structure we have as
individuals. Lot's of us are legimate business entities because at least in
the US you pretty much have to do consulting sooner or later.
At the risk of being flamed for spamming: ;)
If I'm not mistaken the ardour folks can deliver a turnkey DAW for the cost
hardware & installation plus shipping.
Obviously linux has flexibility power stability way
beyond the
confines of windows or mac but it is the tieing up of those 'loose
ends' which make it easier for a new user to get going that make
the ultimate difference. While windows users have licence issues
some linux users have other.
What you say is true, but there is more work involved in providing a package
for every linux distribution.
Windows software normally has OS kernel requirements (XP or better, only up to
win98 and so on). I'm not saying it's necessarily better that you are more
likely able to run whatever program on a less than stock or bone stock linux.
It's more like there's not a lot of incentive to roll a package once you have
something installed, vs commercial software, where somebody has to do the
dull part before they can go home.
It matters little to me if one program does something
in one way
as opposed to a different way in a different program - i.e. each
program is unique unto itself and should be learnt seperately. My
problem in this area has been to get them to work together or
through each other with results.
I don't know if you're talking about hardware or software, but I saw a beta of
a very cool bootable CD music workstation called m-dist
http://www/plus24.com/m-dist
It didn't support USB mouse due to an omission in the version from 2 weeks
ago, but it doesn't get any simpler than that.
I return to my silent world of learning and eventually achieving in
linux but that's my two cents.
I believe in Linux and all that it stands for and wish no insult to
any. Thank you for this moment.
bye
Mark
Mark McBride
Cell 08 4414 6809
Tel.: +27 21 462 0044
Fax: +27 21 465 0277
Bitwise Computer systems
EMail : tech-support(a)bitwise.co.za
EMail : sales(a)bitwise.co.za
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25 Aug
25 Aug
9:10 p.m.
Alle 12:38, martedì 24 agosto 2004, mark(a)kfm.co.za ha scritto:
My linux thought is that the main difference between
linux and
windows is that under windows everything is packaged i.e. that
one installation will actually get that desired product to work -
while under linux a lot more time is spent on finding the correct
patches mixes matches reading than end time using/producing.
I think your intention was not opening a post about what's the best distrib.
Just be of the idea that what you know is good: so also running a Mandrake,
generally thinked for newbes, if you know very well your software, gives you
good performances and satisfactions. But that's not the point...
You said a thing which OSS programmers should know: programming means writing
something which a common user (yes... the "stupid" user, pardon for the
expression ) could use and manage. Packages help a little, but programs are
coded 6 times on 10, requiring optional configuration and hitting the
standardization.
The real evil is that OSS programmers (and I'm one of the team) wrote their
programs thinking to other coders. No reason to be if the code is useful only
for you... No reason to advertize a thing if we cannot use it... What's
about?
From some time I'm addressing my sight in this
direction: common user is my
goal. People shouldn't need to lost their time on
build problems or config if
they haven't.
It matters little to me if one program does something
in one way
as opposed to a different way in a different program - i.e. each
program is unique unto itself and should be learnt seperately. My
problem in this area has been to get them to work together or
through each other with results.
I return to my silent world of learning and eventually achieving in
linux but that's my two cents.
Never be silent... just say what you think... always!
--
J_Zar
Gianluca Romanin
----------------
see you at OpenJay.Org
7468
days inactive
7470
days old
linux-audio-dev@lists.linuxaudio.org
25 comments
11 participants
participants (11)
-
Erik de Castro Lopo -
J_Zar -
james＠dis-dot-dat.net -
Jan Depner -
John Check -
Lee Revell -
Luke Yelavich -
mark＠kfm.co.za -
Paul Davis -
Paul Winkler -
Robert Jonsson