8 Jun
2004
8 Jun
'04
7:59 p.m.
Yes, it's definitely easier to see the position
of a knob
(usually).
The parametric sliders in the JAMin HDEQ are a result of my not
wanting
to use knobs. I think there are probably other ways to replace them
as
well.
Jan
As a rule of thumb, if the parameters are related to each other (i.e.
channel level controls) then it is clearer to use sliders because the
user can compare the relative levels. If the faders are NOT
correlated, then I find it misleading to have them arrayed next to each
other.
Knobs work pretty well in the "uncorrelated" case because your eye
doesn't even try to decipher the relative values. My biggest beef with
knobs is the variety of ways the mouse movement is implemented. Most
software gives you no clue ... vertically? horizontally? radially? ...
and Murphy's law says your first 2 guesses will be wrong. The app
"Soundplay" for BeOS takes a novel approach ... the level is shown as a
knob but when you grab it, a rectangular box appears behind the knob
and you adust it like a fader. This is great because it gives you
visual feedback of which direction(s) to move the knob.
-Ben Loftis
8 Jun
8 Jun
8:12 p.m.
On Tue, 2004-06-08 at 16:50, Ben wrote:
Mine too!
Yes, it's
definitely easier to see the position of a knob
(usually).
The parametric sliders in the JAMin HDEQ are a result of my not
wanting
to use knobs. I think there are probably other ways to replace them
as
well.
Jan
As a rule of thumb, if the parameters are related to each other (i.e.
channel level controls) then it is clearer to use sliders because the
user can compare the relative levels. If the faders are NOT
correlated, then I find it misleading to have them arrayed next to each
other.
Knobs work pretty well in the "uncorrelated" case because your eye
doesn't even try to decipher the relative values. My biggest beef with
knobs is the variety of ways the mouse movement is implemented. Most
software gives you no clue ... vertically? horizontally? radially? ...
and Murphy's law says your first 2 guesses will be wrong. The app
"Soundplay" for BeOS takes a novel approach ... the level is shown as a
knob but when you grab it, a rectangular box appears behind the knob
and you adust it like a fader. This is great because it gives you
visual feedback of which direction(s) to move the knob.
This is exactly the point I was trying to get across. Do something
different. I've been toying lately with the idea of zoomable sliders
when you have too little real estate or pop up sliders that are larger
than their normal graphic representation when you enter their focus
area. The Soundplay approach also seems like a good way to do it. But,
when you're speaking of BeOS, wouldn't that be "took" a novel approach
;-)
Jan
9 Jun
9 Jun
8:30 a.m.
On Tue, Jun 08, 2004 at 05:06:16 -0500, Jan Depner wrote:
This is exactly the point I was trying to get across.
Do something
different. I've been toying lately with the idea of zoomable sliders
when you have too little real estate or pop up sliders that are larger
than their normal graphic representation when you enter their focus
area. The Soundplay approach also seems like a good way to do it. But,
when you're speaking of BeOS, wouldn't that be "took" a novel approach
Heh. I have to speak up for my favourite implementation, the one in the
Nord Modular control app. When a knob has focus a little spinbutton
appears obove it (up/down arrows and a text entry widget) and the right/up
v's radial control is ocnfigurable.
Of course it helps that the app is tightly bound to a control surface, so
theres a real alpha-dial thats also bound to a knob when it has focus.
I like the popping-up-slider approach too though.
- Steve
9:26 a.m.
On Tue, Jun 08, 2004 at 05:06:16 -0500, Jan Depner
wrote:
and i'll chime in with mine, which ardour "stole" from sonar: the
recent "barcontroller" widget, which is somewhat like a fader,
although it displays its numerical value. if you do the correct click
on it, or click in a certain area or type "e" into it, it converts to
a conventional in-place GTK spin button. once editing is done with the
spin button (focus changes out of it), it reverts to the bar control.
--p
This is exactly the point I was trying to get
across. Do something
different. I've been toying lately with the idea of zoomable sliders
when you have too little real estate or pop up sliders that are larger
than their normal graphic representation when you enter their focus
area. The Soundplay approach also seems like a good way to do it. But,
when you're speaking of BeOS, wouldn't that be "took" a novel approach
Heh. I have to speak up for my favourite implementation, the one in the
Nord Modular control app. When a knob has focus a little spinbutton
appears obove it (up/down arrows and a text entry widget) and the right/up
v's radial control is ocnfigurable. 
10:24 a.m.
On Wed, Jun 09, 2004 at 11:21:25AM +0100, Steve Harris wrote:
On Tue, Jun 08, 2004 at 05:06:16 -0500, Jan Depner
wrote:
galan has:
left click -> up down movement
right click -> knob points to mouse
middle click is still undefined ... what shall i add here ?
This is exactly the point I was trying to get
across. Do something
different. I've been toying lately with the idea of zoomable sliders
when you have too little real estate or pop up sliders that are larger
than their normal graphic representation when you enter their focus
area. The Soundplay approach also seems like a good way to do it. But,
when you're speaking of BeOS, wouldn't that be "took" a novel approach
Heh. I have to speak up for my favourite implementation, the one in the
Nord Modular control app. When a knob has focus a little spinbutton
appears obove it (up/down arrows and a text entry widget) and the right/up
v's radial control is ocnfigurable.
Of course it helps that the app is tightly bound to a control surface, so
theres a real alpha-dial thats also bound to a knob when it has focus.
I like the popping-up-slider approach too though.
- Steve
--
torben Hohn
http://galan.sourceforge.net -- The graphical Audio language
4:18 p.m.
On Wed, 9 Jun 2004 14:20:41 +0200
torbenh(a)gmx.de wrote:
On Wed, Jun 09, 2004 at 11:21:25AM +0100, Steve Harris
wrote:
Rotary movement? The advantage of this is finer granularity if you
increase the radius.
-
Myk
On Tue, Jun 08, 2004 at 05:06:16 -0500, Jan
Depner wrote:
galan has:
left click -> up down movement
right click -> knob points to mouse
middle click is still undefined ... what shall i add here ? This is exactly the point I was trying to get
across. Do
something
different. I've been toying lately with the idea of zoomable
sliders when you have too little real estate or pop up sliders
that are larger than their normal graphic representation when you
enter their focus area. The Soundplay approach also seems like a
good way to do it. But, when you're speaking of BeOS, wouldn't
that be "took" a novel approach
Heh. I have to speak up for my favourite implementation, the one in
the Nord Modular control app. When a knob has focus a little
spinbutton appears obove it (up/down arrows and a text entry widget)
and the right/up v's radial control is ocnfigurable.
10 Jun
10 Jun
8:45 a.m.
On Wed, Jun 09, 2004 at 07:02:30PM +0100, Mike Rawes wrote:
On Wed, 9 Jun 2004 14:20:41 +0200
torbenh(a)gmx.de wrote:
i think thats what the right click does.
what do you mean ?
can you say it in C ?
On Wed, Jun 09, 2004 at 11:21:25AM +0100, Steve
Harris wrote:
Rotary movement? The advantage of this is finer granularity if you
increase the radius. On Tue, Jun 08, 2004 at 05:06:16 -0500, Jan
Depner wrote:
galan has:
left click -> up down movement
right click -> knob points to mouse
middle click is still undefined ... what shall i add here ? This is exactly the point I was trying to get
across. Do
something
different. I've been toying lately with the idea of zoomable
sliders when you have too little real estate or pop up sliders
that are larger than their normal graphic representation when you
enter their focus area. The Soundplay approach also seems like a
good way to do it. But, when you're speaking of BeOS, wouldn't
that be "took" a novel approach
Heh. I have to speak up for my favourite implementation, the one in
the Nord Modular control app. When a knob has focus a little
spinbutton appears obove it (up/down arrows and a text entry widget)
and the right/up v's radial control is ocnfigurable.
-
Myk
--
torben Hohn
http://galan.sourceforge.net -- The graphical Audio language
12:28 p.m.
--- torbenh(a)gmx.de wrote:
On Wed, Jun 09, 2004 at 07:02:30PM +0100, Mike Rawes
wrote:
You're right, of course - my brain must have obfuscated 'knob points to
mouse'!
There's always 'distance from centre of knob to mouse' :)
FWIW, I personally don't believe it matters much which method is used - it
takes just one or two seconds to determine the behaviour for a particular app.
The problem with a knob is, unlike a slider, their behaviour only really works
in physical form (they fit snugly between thumb and finger), and doesn't
translate well to the screen+mouse - it has to be 'fudged' somehow, hence the
variety of behaviours in apps.
-
Myk
___________________________________________________________ALL-NEW Yahoo! Messenger -
sooooo many all-new ways to express yourself http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com
On Wed, 9 Jun 2004 14:20:41 +0200
torbenh(a)gmx.de wrote:
i think thats what the right click does. galan has:
left click -> up down movement
right click -> knob points to mouse
middle click is still undefined ... what shall i add here ?
Rotary movement? The advantage of this is finer granularity if you
increase the radius.
1:07 p.m.
On Thu, Jun 10, 2004 at 03:19:44PM +0100, Mike Rawes wrote:
--- torbenh(a)gmx.de wrote:
:) really unobvious behaviour :)
On Wed, Jun 09, 2004 at 07:02:30PM +0100, Mike
Rawes wrote:
You're right, of course - my brain must have obfuscated 'knob points to
mouse'!
There's always 'distance from centre of knob to mouse' :) On Wed, 9 Jun 2004 14:20:41 +0200
torbenh(a)gmx.de wrote:
i think thats what the right click does. galan has:
left click -> up down movement
right click -> knob points to mouse
middle click is still undefined ... what shall i add here ?
Rotary movement? The advantage of this is finer granularity if you
increase the radius.
FWIW, I personally don't believe it matters much which method is used - it
takes just one or two seconds to determine the behaviour for a particular app.
The problem with a knob is, unlike a slider, their behaviour only really works
in physical form (they fit snugly between thumb and finger), and doesn't
translate well to the screen+mouse - it has to be 'fudged' somehow, hence the
variety of behaviours in apps.
well... i think we can see from this discussion, that the behaviour of
the knob must be configurable.
lets make the whole behaviour configurable via .knobrc
Create .knobrc with a tool showing you several knobs which behave
differently and you can try out which one you like most.
or define your own knob profile.....
there just CANT be the BEST knob.
we need to write a knob widget for every toolkit obeying .knobrc
solves behaviour discussion,
solves eye-candy or not discussion.
please concentrate your discussion on knob behaviour without .knobrc
feeling wont be as strong on this issue.
try to identify WHAT needs to configured.
--
torben Hohn
http://galan.sourceforge.net -- The graphical Audio language
8 Jun
8 Jun
8:44 p.m.
On Tue, Jun 08, 2004 at 04:50:40PM -0500, Ben wrote:
and Murphy's law says your first 2 guesses will be
wrong. The app
"Soundplay" for BeOS takes a novel approach ... the level is shown as a
knob but when you grab it, a rectangular box appears behind the knob
and you adust it like a fader. This is great because it gives you
visual feedback of which direction(s) to move the knob.
FL Studio does something similar for some knobs. When you click it, a
vertical progress-bar pops up next to the knob, which makes it quite clear
that you move the mouse UP and DOWN to change the level.
9 Jun
9 Jun
5:27 p.m.
At Tue, 08 Jun 2004 16:50:40 -0500 CDT,
Ben wrote:
The app "Soundplay" for BeOS takes a novel approach ... the level is
shown as a knob but when you grab it, a rectangular box appears
behind the knob and you adust it like a fader. This is great
because it gives you visual feedback of which direction(s) to move
the knob.
votes++
6:03 p.m.
On Wed, Jun 09, 2004 at 03:18:29PM -0400, Pete Bessman wrote:
At Tue, 08 Jun 2004 16:50:40 -0500 CDT,
Ben wrote:
That sounds pretty cool.
--
Paul Winkler
http://www.slinkp.com
The app "Soundplay" for BeOS takes a novel approach ... the level is
shown as a knob but when you grab it, a rectangular box appears
behind the knob and you adust it like a fader. This is great
because it gives you visual feedback of which direction(s) to move
the knob.
votes++
7461
days inactive
7463
days old
linux-audio-dev@lists.linuxaudio.org
11 comments
9 participants
participants (9)
-
Ben -
Jan Depner -
Mike Rawes -
Paul Davis -
Paul Winkler -
Pete Bessman -
Steve Harris -
Tim Hockin -
torbenh＠gmx.de