I think this is not about jack-session vs NSM. The last implementation of jack-session support in a application must have been years ago. Nobody knows what jack-session is and nobody is actively busy with it. A short explanation and a link to the NSM API on jackaudio.org would do. Note also that NSM is explicitly designed without a dependency to JACK. I'm happy about the removal of the connections with linuxaudio.org, but I don't understand why they now link up with jackaudio.org. The fork is highly debated and currently, points of criticism and requests from the original author and others are still not fully honored, like the naming, the use of NSM abbreviation and such. I wouldn't want that discussion being moved to jackaudio.org, also not if I stood in their shoes. It's just not smart. Somehow they need backup to get some authority apparently. We're the official NSM. One wonders why is the original NSM not hosted on jackaudio.org, or raysession or the next better session thing. Who is deciding this? I'm much more a proponent of such projects being independent, certainly knowing the history of and discussion around this fork. Make sure your software is good enough to get noticed and used. Take full responsibility for it yourself. Give it a nice dedicated website. People will find it (and developers will find it via a weblink on jackaudio.org). My 0.02 guilders.

‐‐‐‐‐‐‐ Original Message ‐‐‐‐‐‐‐ On Monday, April 5, 2021 11:25 AM, Fons Adriaensen <fons(a)linuxaudio.org> wrote: That's exactly one of the problems. It's not their brainchild. NSM is the brainchild of the developer of Non-Session-Manager (NSM). newSM as you call it, is a copy of it. That's why I raised the question, which version should be on jackaudio.org? The original or the fork? Fork A or fork B? This leads to the next problematic situation, that the JACK maintainer is also the initiator and maintainer of the NSM fork. Guess which version he chooses now and in the future. There is a conflict of interest here... again... unfortunately. I've two points against the fork, a ethical and a technical. I don't like how the brainchild of the original author is totally hijacked by some people, hijacking linuxaudio.org for it in the same time to make this possible. Fons, I don't think I've to quote your responses to the way they forked and the names they gave it. You used even stronger words then I did, which says something. The end-result is that the Non author removed his source code (temporarily?) from the web in anger and despair. It's also harsh that the original author had very good technical arguments to reject solutions to problems, which he thought they where the wrong analyses of the problems or the wrong solutions. He gave several options to implement solutions in a different way, which where in line with the ideas behind NSM instead. I agreed with him most of the time. Harsh if the above points means that the fork gets a place on jackaudio.org, while the ethics of how this fork has been forked are far off and the technical implementations disputable. These questionable ethics and disputable technical solutions would be much more arbitrary and not part of the discussion here if they would just stick with the NSM api (which they do, if I've to believe it, but that's questionable as well) and if they would put their fork on a own website. Using linuxaudio.org or now jackaudio.org makes these matters far more problematic. Then it becomes a community issue and then there then it's more a matter of, who has the most power or the best connections in the community. The situation with regards linuxaudio.org was more principal for me. I feel I've less to say about jackaudio.org, but here is my take on it: Keep the NSM fork separated from jackaudio.org, (especially until all the ethical issues are solved). Avoid conflict of interest between the JACK maintainer and his NSM fork. Don't 'pollute' the JACK project with the ethics and discussion about the NSM fork. Don't make the JACK project (indirectly) responsible for it, in any way. Put the NSM fork on it's own website or on the website of it's authors, kx.studio or laborejo.org. Give a short explanation on the jackaudio.org website about session management, e.g. NSM and link to the original API and if you like to the forks API (but they where the same...) if you like. Throwing another $0.02 in the box. Not much cents left... ;)

Will Godfrey: Yes please, The whole matter has already been resolved for a long time, or actually there never was a "matter". Just a certain individual doesn't want to stop. The list went into moderation for him not that long ago, that was a good move to get all that nonsense quiet.

On 05/04/21 20:31, Rui Nuno Capela wrote: Sorry but what exactly the move to jackaudio.org resulted in, really? I am not joking, this is an honest and real question. And I am not talking about points that have already been answered. I believe the reasons for the move were already well explained. (Wherever people agree with them or not is a different matter) I only see you being the single developer/jack-related-person against such move. Would be interesting to hear other opinions. PS: the point of the previous email was not about you

On 2021-04-05 11:56:30 (+0000), rosea.grammostola wrote: Filipe is **not** the maintainer of new-session-manager, yet you continue spreading lies about this and are trying to construct a case in your favor from this [1] [2]. The only conflict that exists here is the one that you continue to fabricate [3]. Noone has "hijacked" linuxaudio.org and your implications and outright lies about this are continuous personal attacks [1] on myself and others. I'm not sure whether you realize, that you are trying to bully Fons to be on one or the other side of the fence, which you have been busy building. People can in fact change their minds because they are confronted with more information about a topic or because they simply choose to do so. Interesting mix between loaded question [4] and (bullied) appeal to authority [5]. This is not "the end-result" but a decision, that Jonathan took without actual input from anyone else's side (for all I know), **after** his personal attacks towards the people involved (to whatever extent) with new-session-manager were shut down. Fabricating this into "the end-result" is mere correlation, not causation [6] and appeal to emotion [7]. Have you ever considered, that this is a bias, that let's you glance over all of the (well documented) verbal abuse and taints your output on this topic substantially [8] [9]? Just because you repeat your opinions (which are still lies) over and over again does not make them true [2]. It just makes it more and more annoying for anyone else to read and who was trying to give you a chance at actual contribution. You keep on implying that something is "questionable" or "disputable", yet you never delivered any facts [10]. The only thing, that at this point can ojectively be considered those two terms are your own tactics of continuous conversation derailment, character assassination and insinuation of mal intent (long after being proven wrong). In fact, those were the last two cents you had, as you are now banned from this list for continuous slandering, derailing and spreading of conspiracy theories and lies after receiving a warning [11] (also, I am tired of looking up logical fallacies on wikipedia). Bye, David [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_nauseam [3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man [4] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loaded_question [5] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_authority [6] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Correlation_does_not_imply_causation [7] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sampling_bias [8] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appeal_to_emotion [9] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Survivorship_bias [10] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_ignorance [11] https://lists.linuxaudio.org/archives/linux-audio-dev/2021-February/037955.… -- https://sleepmap.de