8 Dec
2006
8 Dec
'06
8:30 a.m.
Hi everybody!
I wonder what's the common behavior for a synth/sampler regarding MIDI bank
select messages. You might know that MIDI has splitted bank indeces into two
values MSB (coarse) and LSB (fine) value. So the "optimal" behavior would be
a device / sequencer to send a MSB and a LSB bank select message to change
the current bank. But many older keyboards for example won't do that. I've
heard most of them only send MSB bank selects, while few others send only LSB
bank selects. Is that true?
If yes, how should you handle that on synth/sampler side? Because you know,
using just MSB messages would only allow to switch between the following set
of banks:
{ 0, 128, 256, ... , 16256 }
while using just LSB messages would only allow to switch between the following
set of banks:
{ 0, 1, 2, ... , 127 }
So should a synth stick with that behavior or should it detect if a device
either only sends MSB bank selects or only sends LSB bank selects and then
actually remap MSB-only selects to a set of:
{ 0, 1, 2, ... , 127 }
CU
Christian
8 Dec
8 Dec
3:45 p.m.
On Fri, 2006-12-08 at 13:28 +0100, Christian Schoenebeck wrote:
Hi everybody!
I wonder what's the common behavior for a synth/sampler regarding MIDI bank
select messages. You might know that MIDI has splitted bank indeces into two
values MSB (coarse) and LSB (fine) value.
I am only aware of the original program-select message (0 -127) and the
newish(?) special controller 0 msg "bank select" (also 0 - 127)
Older gear are unaware of control zero and will ignore on reception and
most likely not be able to configure themselves to send it. Older
midi-mergers may detect it as an error and discard.
MIDI bank was introduced as a way of having both a userspace freely
programmable area as well as a set (or several) well thought out
patches.
Default is bank zero.
10:02 p.m.
On Fri, Dec 08, 2006 at 01:28:23PM +0100, Christian Schoenebeck wrote:
Hi everybody!
I wonder what's the common behavior for a synth/sampler regarding MIDI bank
select messages. You might know that MIDI has splitted bank indeces into two
values MSB (coarse) and LSB (fine) value. So the "optimal" behavior would be
a device / sequencer to send a MSB and a LSB bank select message to change
the current bank. But many older keyboards for example won't do that. I've
heard most of them only send MSB bank selects, while few others send only LSB
bank selects. Is that true?
hello,
i haven't seen such a keyboard sice around 1995. I dont think that
any recent midi keyboard uses MSB only (or LSB only) bank
controllers.
If yes, how should you handle that on synth/sampler
side? Because you know,
using just MSB messages would only allow to switch between the following set
of banks:
{ 0, 128, 256, ... , 16256 }
while using just LSB messages would only allow to switch between the following
set of banks:
{ 0, 1, 2, ... , 127 }
So should a synth stick with that behavior or should it detect if a device
either only sends MSB bank selects or only sends LSB bank selects and then
actually remap MSB-only selects to a set of:
{ 0, 1, 2, ... , 127 }
Keyboards that only support "MSB only" mode (or "LSB only" mode)
are just too limited and there is no workaround that will "just
work" with both modes. AFAIK, there is no standard way to detect if
a device will use MSB, LSB or both. According to midi standard the
bank number is (LSB + 128 * MSB), so the "Both" mode is the correct
one to use. That's also what most users would expect.
cheers,
-- Alexandre
9 Dec
9 Dec
8:31 a.m.
Ahh ... sorry!
I missed that ctrl 0 (MSB) is mirrored as ctrl 32 (LSB), perhaps because
I get by with 8 sounds (or something ...) when I doodle at home.
Who needs such a vast sample library? I can see the usefulness of having
various dogs, cats, craws, crickets, seagulls or traffic-jams to set the
the tone of a scene filmed off-site. but 127^3 is kind of a huge number.
Is it even implemented on the receiving side?
Inquiring minds wants to know :-)
On Sat, 2006-12-09 at 03:01 +0100, Alexandre Ratchov wrote:
On Fri, Dec 08, 2006 at 01:28:23PM +0100, Christian
Schoenebeck wrote:
--
Hi everybody!
I wonder what's the common behavior for a synth/sampler regarding MIDI bank
select messages. You might know that MIDI has splitted bank indeces into two
values MSB (coarse) and LSB (fine) value. So the "optimal" behavior would be
a device / sequencer to send a MSB and a LSB bank select message to change
the current bank. But many older keyboards for example won't do that. I've
heard most of them only send MSB bank selects, while few others send only LSB
bank selects. Is that true?
hello,
i haven't seen such a keyboard sice around 1995. I dont think that
any recent midi keyboard uses MSB only (or LSB only) bank
controllers.
If yes, how should you handle that on
synth/sampler side? Because you know,
using just MSB messages would only allow to switch between the following set
of banks:
{ 0, 128, 256, ... , 16256 }
while using just LSB messages would only allow to switch between the following
set of banks:
{ 0, 1, 2, ... , 127 }
So should a synth stick with that behavior or should it detect if a device
either only sends MSB bank selects or only sends LSB bank selects and then
actually remap MSB-only selects to a set of:
{ 0, 1, 2, ... , 127 }
Keyboards that only support "MSB only" mode (or "LSB only" mode)
are just too limited and there is no workaround that will "just
work" with both modes. AFAIK, there is no standard way to detect if
a device will use MSB, LSB or both. According to midi standard the
bank number is (LSB + 128 * MSB), so the "Both" mode is the correct
one to use. That's also what most users would expect.
cheers,
-- Alexandre
12:05 p.m.
Am Samstag, 9. Dezember 2006 03:01 schrieb Alexandre Ratchov:
Keyboards that only support "MSB only" mode
(or "LSB only" mode)
are just too limited and there is no workaround that will "just
work" with both modes. AFAIK, there is no standard way to detect if
a device will use MSB, LSB or both. According to midi standard the
bank number is (LSB + 128 * MSB), so the "Both" mode is the correct
one to use. That's also what most users would expect.
Of course there is no real way to detect if a keyboard sends MSB-only or
LSB-only bank selects, but there would be a workaround at least. I guess I
will implement it similar as suggested by Grigor and Rui:
"Normally, the instrument is only changed effectively when, and only when, a
program change is received? Check. So, let's try having two int placeholders
per MIDI channel for bank selection in linuxsampler, one as MSB and another
as LSB, initialized to -1. If a bank MSB arrives, it will override the
corresponding variable. Same as LSB, but independently. Then, if the LSB
variable has the -1 value then, most probably, the sending device does not
support the conjugated bank selection method, and in that case the MSB value
will function as LSB alone, but iif the stored LSB value is -1, meaning that
it was untuoched by the sending device. Once the program change is done, just
reset both values to -1 and we're back in business ;)"
At least I can't see a drawback of this workaround.
Am Samstag, 9. Dezember 2006 13:30 schrieb Jens M Andreasen:
Who needs such a vast sample library? I can see the
usefulness of having
various dogs, cats, craws, crickets, seagulls or traffic-jams to set the
the tone of a scene filmed off-site. but 127^3 is kind of a huge number.
We'll see. ;)
The point is that it doesn't make much of a difference to me in regards of the
effort to implement it either with 127 or 127^2 banks, beside that little
overhead of writing to this mailing list probably. ;)
Is it even implemented on the receiving side?
Inquiring minds wants to know :-)
Yes, it is implemented on LS CVS HEAD:
http://www.linuxsampler.org/api/draft-linuxsampler-protocol.html#anchor14
But as you can see you have to map the respective sounds by yourself, i.e. by
QSampler's new MIDI map editor or by manually placing the map commands in a
LSCP script file. For each entry you can indiidually define if the respective
sound should be loaded on demand or preloaded ("persistent").
But I'm currently working to extend this mapping feature a bit: ATM you can
only manage one single, global map which is used by all sampler channels.
Within the next days however you can add an arbitrary amount of individual
maps and define which sampler channel should be associated with which map.
That way you can i.e. at least create two maps: one for "normal" instruments
and one for drumkits and in contrast to the common GM behavior you could
assign such a drumkit map to other MIDI channels beside MIDI channel 10
and/or you can define a 2nd drumkit map or whatever.
CU
Christian
3:21 p.m.
On Sat, Dec 09, 2006 at 05:04:16PM +0100, Christian Schoenebeck wrote:
Am Samstag, 9. Dezember 2006 03:01 schrieb Alexandre
Ratchov:
hmm... MIDI spec says that if only MSB (or LSB) is received, then
the last value of LSB (or MSB) will be used. If the default bank is
0 then if bank MSB (or LSB) has never been received 0 will be used
as "last value".
AFAIK a device that uses both LSB and MSB is allowed to transmit
the following messages:
bank_msb 1 # set bank to 128
prog_change 2 # load patch 2 from bank 128
or the following:
bank_msb 10 # set bank to 1280
bank_lsb 1 # set bank to 1281
prog_change 2 # load prog 2 from bank 1281
bank_msb 0 # set bank to 1
prog_change 3 # load prog 3 from bank 1
This is unlikely to happen with a MIDI keyboard in real-life,
however a MIDI sequencer that keeps state of already transmitted
messages may transmit messages like the above.
cheers,
-- Alexandre
Keyboards that only support "MSB only"
mode (or "LSB only" mode)
are just too limited and there is no workaround that will "just
work" with both modes. AFAIK, there is no standard way to detect if
a device will use MSB, LSB or both. According to midi standard the
bank number is (LSB + 128 * MSB), so the "Both" mode is the correct
one to use. That's also what most users would expect.
Of course there is no real way to detect if a keyboard sends MSB-only or
LSB-only bank selects, but there would be a workaround at least. I guess I
will implement it similar as suggested by Grigor and Rui:
"Normally, the instrument is only changed effectively when, and only when, a
program change is received? Check. So, let's try having two int placeholders
per MIDI channel for bank selection in linuxsampler, one as MSB and another
as LSB, initialized to -1. If a bank MSB arrives, it will override the
corresponding variable. Same as LSB, but independently. Then, if the LSB
variable has the -1 value then, most probably, the sending device does not
support the conjugated bank selection method, and in that case the MSB value
will function as LSB alone, but iif the stored LSB value is -1, meaning that
it was untuoched by the sending device. Once the program change is done, just
reset both values to -1 and we're back in business ;)"
At least I can't see a drawback of this workaround.
10 Dec
10 Dec
6:04 a.m.
On 12/9/06, Alexandre Ratchov <alex(a)caoua.org> wrote:
On Fri, Dec 08, 2006 at 01:28:23PM +0100, Christian Schoenebeck wrote:
Actually the CME UF-8 only has program change, no bank change, so I guess
it's one of them. This keyboard appeared in 2005.
__________________
Marc-Olivier Barre,
Markinoko.
Hi everybody!
I wonder what's the common behavior for a synth/sampler regarding MIDI
bank
select messages. You might know that MIDI has
splitted bank indeces into
two
values MSB (coarse) and LSB (fine) value. So the
"optimal" behavior
would be
a device / sequencer to send a MSB and a LSB bank
select message to
change
the current bank. But many older keyboards for
example won't do that.
I've
heard most of them only send MSB bank selects,
while few others send
only LSB
bank selects. Is that true?
hello,
i haven't seen such a keyboard sice around 1995. I dont think that
any recent midi keyboard uses MSB only (or LSB only) bank
controllers.
6592
days inactive
6594
days old
linux-audio-dev@lists.linuxaudio.org
6 comments
4 participants
participants (4)
-
Alexandre Ratchov -
Christian Schoenebeck -
Jens M Andreasen -
Marc-Olivier Barre