Users and musicians. I'm no developer - never claimed to be. That is what we will be promoting - there's no disagreement here. I've been in the studio for a few days, as it happens - I appreciate that iriXx stepped in to answer that, as she's been involved in planning for the event too. It's true that I did initiate the arrangement whereby the Linux audio community gets representation at a major UK audio industry trade show, on the basis that we will be offering free advice and information rather than a sales pitch. The organisers have agreed to give us the stand at cost, which they didn't have to do. Cheers Daniel

No - a consortium can only represent its members. By which you mean members of a mailing list, or the actual developers doing the work? This may come as a surprise to you, but many libre software developers admit that they need help to promote their software - either because they don't have the time, experience of working with the media or public speaking skills. If you read up on the event you'll see it is specifically about audio and music technology, which LinuxTag is not. Running this kind of stand at a Linux event would be 'preaching to the converted'. As for ZKM, that is a developer event, not really an event for users who don't even know what Linux is yet. er... that's what we are doing. I don't think you appreciate the situation with regard to the small companies that are funding free software development, while trying to make a living for developers at the same time. They are not rich. Even combined, their resources are tiny compared to the proprietary software companies. What have you got against users? Is it because I'm a user rather than a developer? Agreed - but only events in Germany as far as I know. There are other countries too. Perhaps that's because a mailing list is not an organisation. If they had set up an organisation and called themselves directors of it, I don't think anyone would have complained. As long as they a) know the event exists and b) are sufficiently interested to travel to Germany for it. Yes - but we're aiming our effort at a very different audience. Thanks for the appreciation! I never said it was. Already done. No. It was only a temporary list. You sound paranoid. Cheers Daniel

On Wed, 2004-01-21 at 13:32, Marek Peteraj wrote: I would really rather not fuel this thread (personally I think both sides are being incredibly stupid) but this is the one thing that bothers me. Why is this list closed? Memership "will be held for approval", and the archive isn't available for browsing.. what gives? Certainly not the way things are done in the 'open source community'.. -Dave

On Wed, 2004-01-21 at 12:25, Daniel James wrote: Well, when there's a mailing list somewhere that supposedly represents 'linux audio', people should be able to read it. Archive is open now, end of issue. (For the record, you should be making things open-by-default, or people /will/ question your motives regardless) Oh, come on. Sending someone a private email and having a private mailing list (to represent "the community" no less) is not even remotely the same thing. -Dave

Dave Robillard &lt;drobilla(a)connect.carleton.ca&gt; writes: `consortium-p' (`p' is for `prepare') was just a temporary mailing list I set up quickly to avoid long Cc: headers (which I personally hate, more often than not I forget someone or I receive/send double e-mails). If I remember correctly, it was me who proposed creating this mailing list (again, for purely practical reasons). Moreover, it's a habit for me to create moderator-approved subscriptions and private-archives lists. Call me a control freak (I probably am). <ironic> I don't know if it's a good or bad habit, but one thing is sure: neither Daniel nor the rest of the Consortium ever told me to close the list and keep the archives private so that we could proceed in our secret project to overthrow the sacred Linux Audio Developers Guild [0] and put them into the rapacious hands of Microsoft (of course, all members of the Consortium are secretly paid by Microsoft). </ironic> Don't take offence, but: (a) there is no such thing as the 'open source community' - there are many different groups which work with/on/for FLOSS, each with different policies, rules (written or not) and hierarchies (apparent or not); (b) you would be surprised at knowing how much discussion on specific points of various 'Open Source' projects are held off-list. I can't manage, with all good will, to find it so disturbing. For the record: http://linuxaudio.org/en/index.html News * Consortium mailing list now available (http://lists.linuxaudio.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/consortium/) bye, andrea [0] Before someone feels the necessity to accuse me of not considering developers enough: I think that developers are an incredible resource for any computer project. So are users, bug testers, doc writers, P.R. organizers, etc, etc, etc.

Dave Robillard &lt;drobilla(a)connect.carleton.ca&gt; writes: Sigh. I guess next time I'll have to add a longer disclaimer. For the record, I didn't mean to take fun on you. I was trying (albeit with poor results) to have some fun together (maybe <auto-ironic> is a better tag, I don't know). That's an opinion. Given that "the list" was simply a group of Cc: (turned into a list for purely practical reasons) I beg to disagree. I still don't understand how the Linuxaudio.org consortium is represting anyone but its members (as is the case for all consortia, which usually don't represent anyone but their own members). Simply because of my bad sense of humour (or my lack of expressive capabilities, partly due to the fact I'm not a native english speaker)? I'm quite sure there are plenty of factual reasons on which to base one's own judgement of the Consortium, be it positive or negative. Its activities could be a good start. P.S.: maybe we could move this thread somewhere else. I feel a bit OT here. bye, andrea

Dave Robillard &lt;drobilla(a)connect.carleton.ca&gt; writes: I guess the real problem was that non-native speakers should never try to be ironic or in any case try to bend a foreign language beside its basic rules. Irony is difficult enough to express and understand in one's own language. I am (but I aim at Libre Software world domination, Linux is just a very useful technical tool to do the trick for now). If you look at the consortium-p archives you'll see that I perfectly agree. Actually, some of my positions were discussed and rejected because they were too extreme (and as such difficult to implement) in this regards. I had no problems with it, because as all things in life you learn to do compromises if you think the goal is worth it. And in the end you always have the option to opt out (or not to join at all). Just to say that obviously the consortium is not entirely made up of corporate "wolves" who don't know or don't care about freedom (honestly I don't see how one could reach this conclusion looking at the current members' list, but anyway). And of course, that doesn't mean I want or I can represent anybody but myself and the project I currently manage. bye, andrea

On Wednesday 21 January 2004 08:08 pm, Marek Peteraj wrote: I would like to suggest that this discussion be moved to the consortium's public e-mail list. LAD subscribers who think this discussion is important can and should subscribe, and the growing number of LAD subscribers who don't needn't be bothered with it anymore - everybody wins :) |) |)enji

Wow! I managed to delete every single one of those ridiculous linuxaudio.org posts. I think I've got carpal tunnel syndrome though. Now, is everybody happy? If not, can we please move this thread to the mailing list at whining.org and return our attention to something important? Jan On Wed, 2004-01-21 at 15:55, Marek Peteraj wrote:

On Wed, 2004-01-21 at 14:23, holborn wrote: Good god.. you're serious? Advocating our, er, development platform doesn't necessitate turning into a bunch of suit-wearing corporate management.... "people". Anyway, we're not selling anything, and we're not a 'serious company'. Let SCO put up pictures of greasy bastards wearing suit and tie. -Dave

this is a somewhat heated reply, you may want to skip it entirely if you have had enough of this thread already... but since my own efforts are being drawn into the argument now, i feel it's time to sound off: Marek Peteraj wrote: marek, please: it's time to shut up. i too have been speaking as a representative of the linux audio community on various occasions. frank neumann has even been so bold as to organize a trade show booth in the name of the linux audio community. matthias nagorni is just now and in front of everyone's eyes committing the heinous atrocity of organizing a conference in the name of the linux audio community. none of us has obtained anyone's mandate, none of us has discussed everything we do on this list up to the point of consensus. SO WHAT????? there is no such thing as a linux audio community, except for *what people do*. so daniel is as much part of it as you and i. this list is just a list. a means of communication. it's great at times, and sometimes it's not. as pointed out before, not even everyone interested in linux audio uses it. nowhere on the whole wide web will you find a clear definition of what the linux audio community is and who can speak for it. and you are not going to define it either by continous nit-picking at the efforts of others. linux audio is what people do with it. that's what free software communities are about. if somebody tries to put an organisation together to provide a new forum for exchange with (shudder ;) commercial developers, that can only enrich the community. if it works, great, if it fails, so what? nobody is going to take all the code away from you (thanks to the gpl - chapeau, mr. stallman!), nobody is going to take all the contributors of the community away. where is the problem? there have been some valid points of criticism on how david is organizing and presenting his effort. i'm sure these can and should be discussed. but there is absolutely and utterly no point in bashing peoples' heads in for working free-of-charge towards what they believe will be for the good of linux audio. be pragmatic: if the linuxaudio.org effort is worth crap, then it's going to die a good and honest open-source death. if it prospers, then it will add another facet to the linux audio community. but how could it really endanger or take away anything that the community already has? the only thing i see endangered here is the atmosphere of mutual respect that has been one of the pillars of this mailing list. if you fear fragmentation of the community, well, that too is part of the game. projects are forked, forks are healed, projects succeed and die, communities form and disperse themselves. no harm in voicing your fear of fragmentation, but why attack people and discredit their efforts? excuse me for ranting, but i too have invested a lot of free time *and* money to advocate linux audio and the linux audio community. i want to continue to do this *as i see fit*, to the best of my knowledge, and i certainly do not want to face a stupid public tribunal such as this in return for my efforts. in my view, david first of all deserves a huge cheer for a new idea and a lot of work, and then we can discuss the points that were subject to criticism. this whole thread sadly reminds me again of the zynaddsubfx flamewar about the weird jesus clause its author had on his website. well, above all, imnsho, if some new thing comes with strings attached that do not suit you, just ignore it. you haven't lost anything, and nothing is being taken away from you. it's an offer, after all. nor does david. he stepped in as director of linuxaudio.org to get a ball rolling. just as matthias and frank "usurped" the role of conference organizers. *to*get*something*done* ! if you consider some of his actions bad style, then fine, but show some style yourself when offering criticism. both stands *and* meetings are nice and have become and important part of the community. what's your point? excuse me, but it takes a lot of goodwill to read "appreciation" into any of your postings lately. scratching my head, jörn (btw, just to make it clear: while i happen to be the list admin atm, this is my *personal* opinion, and it does not in anyway reflect list policy or some hazy "community pov". i have always tried to keep the two well separated, and i intend to continue doing so.) -- "I never use EQ, never, never, never. I previously used to use mic positioning but I've even given up on that too." - Jezar on http://www.audiomelody.com Jörn Nettingsmeier Kurfürstenstr 49, 45138 Essen, Germany http://spunk.dnsalias.org (my server) http://www.linuxaudiodev.org (Linux Audio Developers)

On Wed, 2004-01-21 at 15:45, Joern Nettingsmeier wrote: ? Dear Joern, thanks for not replying to 3 of my emails i have sent during July, August and September. I have never used uppercase just as you do, i have never called the lad members a stupid tribunal just as you did in this mail though you're the admin of this list, and i have never used the ironic term 'err...' just as Daniel did several times. Marek

On Wed, 2004-01-21 at 19:57, Doug Wellington wrote: No. A consortium isn't going to protect the interests of the linux audio developers. And there's no better promotion than a unified community place with a simple name - 'linuxaudio'. Marek

On Wed, 2004-01-21 at 15:45, Joern Nettingsmeier wrote: A conference organiser is something different than a selfelected director. Sorry for not mentioning Conrad for organising LAD conf in Australia. He deserves respect aswell. Marek