11 Apr
2010
11 Apr
'10
9:52 p.m.
On Mon, April 12, 2010 00:38, James Morris wrote:
Hi,
I'm pretty sure I've seen this dealt with on the list before, but can't
find it.
With the program I'm fumbling around trying to create, it will be possible
for successive note on events for the same pitch to occur without note off
events intervening.
Does the MIDI spec allow such things?
Sorry to answer myself so soon...
I guess it is allowed. The simplest case being a sequencer outputting to
the same channel and port as a keyboard player. Nothing can prevent this -
right?
And there's no way in the world that missing note-offs could be added in,
in a fashion guaranteed to cover all possible permutations of connections,
or without delaying the note-on which implies a missing note-off.
James.
The bash-script prototype of the program did this,
and, I believe, the
soft-synths used, acted appropriately - that is, re-triggered the notes.
So I guess the question is, does it make any difference if I add-in the
note-off events - which, thinking about it, is going to be tricky because,
basically, although the program is sequencing, it will be real time and is
not psychic!
Cheers,
James.
_______________________________________________
Linux-audio-dev mailing list
Linux-audio-dev(a)lists.linuxaudio.org
http://lists.linuxaudio.org/listinfo/linux-audio-dev
12 Apr
12 Apr
4:07 a.m.
New subject: successive note on midi events
On Mon, 2010-04-12 at 00:52 +0100, James Morris wrote:
On Mon, April 12, 2010 00:38, James Morris wrote:
The question is what happens at the other end when a note gets struck a
second time.
a) Nothing, the note is already on.
b) Re-trigger, the voice is reset and the note gets played from the top
c) Trigger, a new voice is assigned and will play simultaneously to
previous voices
Hi,
I'm pretty sure I've seen this dealt with on the list before, but can't
find it.
With the program I'm fumbling around trying to create, it will be possible
for successive note on events for the same pitch to occur without note off
events intervening.
Does the MIDI spec allow such things?
Sorry to answer myself so soon...
I guess it is allowed. The simplest case being a sequencer outputting to
the same channel and port as a keyboard player. Nothing can prevent this -
right?
And there's no way in the world that missing
note-offs could be added in,
in a fashion guaranteed to cover all possible permutations of connections,
or without delaying the note-on which implies a missing note-off.
An all-notes-off will take care of any missing note-offs
James.
The bash-script prototype of the program did
this, and, I believe, the
soft-synths used, acted appropriately - that is, re-triggered the notes.
So I guess the question is, does it make any difference if I add-in the
note-off events - which, thinking about it, is going to be tricky because,
basically, although the program is sequencing, it will be real time and is
not psychic!
Cheers,
James.
_______________________________________________
Linux-audio-dev mailing list
Linux-audio-dev(a)lists.linuxaudio.org
http://lists.linuxaudio.org/listinfo/linux-audio-dev
_______________________________________________
Linux-audio-dev mailing list
Linux-audio-dev(a)lists.linuxaudio.org
http://lists.linuxaudio.org/listinfo/linux-audio-dev 
4:22 a.m.
New subject: successive note on midi events
Jens M Andreasen wrote:
This would stop every note of the channel receiving this control change
event, also the notes that were sent with a note off event, but that
still should play because of the ADSR release time.
On Mon, 2010-04-12 at 00:52 +0100, James Morris
wrote:
Important for polyphonic synth.
On Mon, April 12, 2010 00:38, James Morris
wrote:
The question is what happens at the other end when a note gets struck a
second time.
a) Nothing, the note is already on.
b) Re-trigger, the voice is reset and the note gets played from the top
c) Trigger, a new voice is assigned and will play simultaneously to
previous voices
Hi,
I'm pretty sure I've seen this dealt with on the list before, but can't
find it.
With the program I'm fumbling around trying to create, it will be possible
for successive note on events for the same pitch to occur without note off
events intervening.
Does the MIDI spec allow such things?
Sorry to answer myself so soon...
I guess it is allowed. The simplest case being a sequencer outputting to
the same channel and port as a keyboard player. Nothing can prevent this -
right?
And
there's no way in the world that missing note-offs could be added in,
in a fashion guaranteed to cover all possible permutations of connections,
or without delaying the note-on which implies a missing note-off.
An all-notes-off will take care of any missing note-offs
James.
_______________________________________________
Linux-audio-dev mailing list
Linux-audio-dev(a)lists.linuxaudio.org
http://lists.linuxaudio.org/listinfo/linux-audio-dev
The bash-script prototype of the program did
this, and, I believe, the
soft-synths used, acted appropriately - that is, re-triggered the notes.
So I guess the question is, does it make any difference if I add-in the
note-off events - which, thinking about it, is going to be tricky because,
basically, although the program is sequencing, it will be real time and is
not psychic!
Cheers,
James.
_______________________________________________
Linux-audio-dev mailing list
Linux-audio-dev(a)lists.linuxaudio.org
http://lists.linuxaudio.org/listinfo/linux-audio-dev
_______________________________________________
Linux-audio-dev mailing list
Linux-audio-dev(a)lists.linuxaudio.org
http://lists.linuxaudio.org/listinfo/linux-audio-dev
6:27 a.m.
New subject: successive note on midi events
On Mon, 2010-04-12 at 08:07 +0200, Jens M Andreasen wrote:
The question is what happens at the other end when a
note gets struck a
second time.
a) Nothing, the note is already on.
b) Re-trigger, the voice is reset and the note gets played from the top
c) Trigger, a new voice is assigned and will play simultaneously to
previous voices
a) and b) both might make sense for a monophonic synth part, but in the
polyphonic case, it should be c). Doubling a note seems perfectly
reasonable to me and accidental surplus Note-Ons are simply not
acceptable (I'm also not aware of that being a common problem).
--
Thorsten Wilms
thorwil's design for free software:
http://thorwil.wordpress.com/
6:41 a.m.
New subject: successive note on midi events
Thorsten Wilms wrote:
On Mon, 2010-04-12 at 08:07 +0200, Jens M Andreasen
wrote:
Doubling notes is reasonable, e.g. to avoid a machine-gun effect when a
drum is played a second time, whereas the first sound isn't released.
It's not acceptable if you program for hardware, the kind of MIDI
connection he was talking about isn't acceptable for hardware too, e.g.
he won't be able to control running status. But perhaps internal Linux
it's ok to do it his way?
The question is what happens at the other end
when a note gets struck a
second time.
a) Nothing, the note is already on.
b) Re-trigger, the voice is reset and the note gets played from the top
c) Trigger, a new voice is assigned and will play simultaneously to
previous voices
a) and b) both might make sense for a monophonic synth part, but in the
polyphonic case, it should be c). Doubling a note seems perfectly
reasonable to me and accidental surplus Note-Ons are simply not
acceptable (I'm also not aware of that being a common problem).
8:30 a.m.
New subject: successive note on midi events
On Mon, 2010-04-12 at 10:26 +0200, Thorsten Wilms wrote:
On Mon, 2010-04-12 at 08:07 +0200, Jens M Andreasen
wrote:
Surprisingly, all classical polyphonic keyboards like piano and organ
works according to 'a'. If you - while playing four-handed piano -
accidentally strikes a note already held by the other player, nothing
will happen (in musical terms, that is ...)
Polyphony is what is supposed to happen when you strike /different/
notes and doubling notes will normally be done by pressing the
hold-pedal and then striking the note twice.
The question is what happens at the other end
when a note gets struck a
second time.
a) Nothing, the note is already on.
b) Re-trigger, the voice is reset and the note gets played from the top
c) Trigger, a new voice is assigned and will play simultaneously to
previous voices
a) and b) both might make sense for a monophonic synth part, but in the
polyphonic case, it should be c). Doubling a note seems perfectly
reasonable to me and accidental surplus Note-Ons are simply not
acceptable (I'm also not aware of that being a common problem).
8:58 a.m.
New subject: successive note on midi events
On Mon, 2010-04-12 at 12:30 +0200, Jens M Andreasen wrote:
Surprisingly, all classical polyphonic keyboards like
piano and organ
works according to 'a'. If you - while playing four-handed piano -
accidentally strikes a note already held by the other player, nothing
will happen (in musical terms, that is ...)
Polyphony is what is supposed to happen when you strike /different/
notes and doubling notes will normally be done by pressing the
hold-pedal and then striking the note twice.
There is no compulsory need to enforce the keyboard model unto the
interpretation of MIDI. I don't think it should be part of a definition
of polyphony, which to me simply is the simultaneous use of more than
one voice, be that from a single or multiple instruments.
--
Thorsten Wilms
thorwil's design for free software:
http://thorwil.wordpress.com/
9:50 a.m.
New subject: successive note on midi events
On Mon, Apr 12, 2010 at 6:30 AM, Jens M Andreasen
<jens.andreasen(a)comhem.se> wrote:
Polyphony is what is supposed to happen when you
strike /different/
notes and doubling notes will normally be done by pressing the
hold-pedal and then striking the note twice.
within JACK and ALSA *sequencer* MIDI frameworks, all MIDI is
"normalized" - there is no running status passed to applications and
they should not use it themselves.
if you use the ALSA "hw" MIDI API, then you can see and deliver
running status-based messages.
running status is a wire-level optimization that serves no useful role
within a contemporary computer.
--p
9:56 p.m.
New subject: successive note on midi events
On Mon, April 12, 2010 09:26, Thorsten Wilms wrote:
polyphonic case, it should be c). Doubling a note
seems perfectly
reasonable to me and accidental surplus Note-Ons are simply not
acceptable (I'm also not aware of that being a common problem).
Ok, ok, ok, my last question, this has got me all flummoxed but I now
believe I've figured it out - please confirm!
And as per hints regarding musical instruments which use the (non-digital)
materials they're made of to produce sound...
A string of note-ons following each other all for the same pitch n without
any intervening note-offs for pitch n, IS PERFECTLY ACCEPTABLE provided
they are INTENTIONAL and NOT accidental.
I never said this would be unintentional nor a result of lousy programming
;-)
Please say so, yes, that is correct, please..
James.
10:22 p.m.
New subject: successive note on midi events
On Tue, 2010-04-13 at 00:55 +0100, James Morris wrote:
A string of note-ons following each other all for the
same pitch n without
any intervening note-offs for pitch n, IS PERFECTLY ACCEPTABLE provided
they are INTENTIONAL and NOT accidental.
Yes, except for that this is an absurdity that could only happen by
accidental programming.
Please say so, yes, that is correct, please..
Goodnight James!
13 Apr
13 Apr
12:02 a.m.
New subject: successive note on midi events
Jens M Andreasen wrote:
On Tue, 2010-04-13 at 00:55 +0100, James Morris
wrote:
Isn't there the consensus that the c) thing will cause the same sound,
as the sound that will be produced, when the sustain pedal is used? And
that it's allowed by the MIDI specs to do this without using a sustain
pedal, but by using a sequencer were it's edited that the same note will
overlap? It might be useful to produce some random phasing synth sound,
but there's absolutely no natural instrument were this could happen.
By the way, I right now played a very good DX7 Mark III sound, hold the
sustain pedal and played the same notes again and again and the sound
became bad. I dunno, but I hope that for a Clavinova a Mark sound even
would be "reset" when the sustain pedal is hold and the same notes will
be played again and again.
Anyway, "except for that this is an absurdity that could only happen by
accidental programming", it's not an absurdity, it's possible to do this
by using any sequencer, but most times it's unwanted, because it seldom
sound good and it never sounds natural. Some sequencers have functions
that allow to delete "same notes".
A string of note-ons following each other all for
the same pitch n without
any intervening note-offs for pitch n, IS PERFECTLY ACCEPTABLE provided
they are INTENTIONAL and NOT accidental.
Yes, except for that this is an absurdity that could only happen by
accidental programming.
12:13 a.m.
New subject: successive note on midi events
Ralf Mardorf wrote:
Jens M Andreasen wrote:
PS: Btw. I was mistaken because of the drum samples, even there a note
off event won't cause the machine-gun effect, when the first note simply
has it's release time instead of being interrupted, while the second
note starts. I guess for good drum samples uncontrollable phasing is
avoided by having layers, resp. fine random pitch shifting.
On Tue, 2010-04-13 at 00:55 +0100, James Morris
wrote:
Isn't there the consensus that the c) thing will cause the same sound,
as the sound that will be produced, when the sustain pedal is used?
And that it's allowed by the MIDI specs to do this without using a
sustain pedal, but by using a sequencer were it's edited that the same
note will overlap? It might be useful to produce some random phasing
synth sound, but there's absolutely no natural instrument were this
could happen.
By the way, I right now played a very good DX7 Mark III sound, hold
the sustain pedal and played the same notes again and again and the
sound became bad. I dunno, but I hope that for a Clavinova a Mark
sound even would be "reset" when the sustain pedal is hold and the
same notes will be played again and again.
Anyway, "except for that this is an absurdity that could only happen
by accidental programming", it's not an absurdity, it's possible to do
this by using any sequencer, but most times it's unwanted, because it
seldom sound good and it never sounds natural. Some sequencers have
functions that allow to delete "same notes". A string of note-ons following each other all for
the same pitch n
without
any intervening note-offs for pitch n, IS PERFECTLY ACCEPTABLE provided
they are INTENTIONAL and NOT accidental.
Yes, except for that this is an absurdity that could only happen by
accidental programming. 
4:40 a.m.
New subject: successive note on midi events
On Tuesday 13 April 2010 02:21:54 Jens M Andreasen wrote:
On Tue, 2010-04-13 at 00:55 +0100, James Morris
wrote:
Or by doubling/tripling a part in the sequencer to get more volume in the
sound.
Of course this really should then be a second (and third) midi-channel, but if
the sound used allows it, I don't see a problem with this behaviour.
Have fun,
Arnold
A string of note-ons following each other all for
the same pitch n
without any intervening note-offs for pitch n, IS PERFECTLY ACCEPTABLE
provided they are INTENTIONAL and NOT accidental.
Yes, except for that this is an absurdity that could only happen by
accidental programming. 
5:55 a.m.
New subject: successive note on midi events
Jens M Andreasen wrote:
On Tue, 2010-04-13 at 00:55 +0100, James Morris
wrote:
Are you trying to assert that absurdities (and accidental programming)
do *not* happen quite often in music? ;-)
To quote from the GS standard:
| Address: 40 1x 14, Parameter: ASSIGN MODE,
| 0 = SINGLE, 1 = LIMITED-MULTI, 2 = FULL-MULTI
|
| Single: If the same note is played multiple times in succession, the
| previously-sounding note will be completely silenced, and then the new
| note will be sounded.
|
| LimitedMulti: If the same note is played multiple times in succession,
| the previously-sounding note will be continued to a certain extent
| even after the new note is sounded. (Default setting)
|
| FullMulti: If the same note is played multiple times in succession,
| the previously-sounding note(s) will continue sounding for their
| natural length even after the new note is sounded.
|
| * ASSIGN MODE is the parameter that determines how voice assignment
| will be handled when sounds overlap on identical note numbers in the
| same channel (i.e., repeatedly struck notes).
IIRC the XG standard has a similar parameter.
Regards,
Clemens
A string of note-ons following each other all for
the same pitch n without
any intervening note-offs for pitch n, IS PERFECTLY ACCEPTABLE provided
they are INTENTIONAL and NOT accidental.
Yes, except for that this is an absurdity that could only happen by
accidental programming.
8:39 a.m.
New subject: successive note on midi events
On Tue, 2010-04-13 at 09:55 +0200, Clemens Ladisch wrote:
Are you trying to assert that absurdities (and
accidental programming)
do *not* happen quite often in music? ;-)
I forgot about standards.
Can anybody here explain the precise meaning of "a certain extent" or
which one of the note-off's out of a plethora of choices it is that will
eventually determine some notes "natural length" ... All that you quoted
here below is gibberish if it is not also assumed that every note-on is
immediately (explicitely or implicitely) followed by a note-off. Like a
drum-machine where a notes natural length is determined by a common
decay/release parameter.
To quote from the GS standard:
| Address: 40 1x 14, Parameter: ASSIGN MODE,
| 0 = SINGLE, 1 = LIMITED-MULTI, 2 = FULL-MULTI
|
| Single: If the same note is played multiple times in succession, the
| previously-sounding note will be completely silenced, and then the new
| note will be sounded.
|
| LimitedMulti: If the same note is played multiple times in succession,
| the previously-sounding note will be continued to a certain extent
| even after the new note is sounded. (Default setting)
|
| FullMulti: If the same note is played multiple times in succession,
| the previously-sounding note(s) will continue sounding for their
| natural length even after the new note is sounded.
|
| * ASSIGN MODE is the parameter that determines how voice assignment
| will be handled when sounds overlap on identical note numbers in the
| same channel (i.e., repeatedly struck notes).
Additionally:
| This is initialized to a mode suitable for each Part, so for general
| purposes there is no need to change this.
Who is initializing here. The synth-module or the ringtone/midi-tune you
downloaded to play on your phone and/or karaoke-device?
/j
IIRC the XG standard has a similar parameter.
Regards,
Clemens
9:02 a.m.
New subject: successive note on midi events
Jens M Andreasen wrote:
On Tue, 2010-04-13 at 09:55 +0200, Clemens Ladisch
wrote:
I'd guess this depends on the instrument.
If the sound were switched off completely, there would be audible
effects; that "certain extent" is long enough so that it sounds
natural.
To quote from the GS standard:
| LimitedMulti: If the same note is played multiple times in succession,
| the previously-sounding note will be continued to a certain extent
| even after the new note is sounded. (Default setting)
Can anybody here explain the precise meaning of "a certain extent" or which one of the note-off's out of a plethora
of choices it is that
will eventually determine some notes "natural length"
The "natural length" applies to percussion sounds, which don't react
to note-offs.
For sustained sounds, I'd guess that the first note-off applies to all.
| This is initialized to a mode suitable for each
Part, so for general
| purposes there is no need to change this.
Who is initializing here. The synth-module
Yes; this specifies how the synth behaves.
Regards,
Clemens
10:13 a.m.
New subject: successive note on midi events
On Tue, Apr 13, 2010 at 7:01 AM, Clemens Ladisch <clemens(a)ladisch.de> wrote:
For sustained sounds, I'd guess that the first
note-off applies to all.
and then there are sounds that have their own "natural" length. my
kawai k5000 which does additive and wavetable synthesis has quite a
few patches that have "natural" decay/release curves built into the
patch. a note off does nothing but terminate the sound early. if you
don't send a note off, the voice will still decay, but it will hog one
of the available voice slots.
--p
10:40 a.m.
New subject: successive note on midi events
On Tue, 2010-04-13 at 08:13 -0400, Paul Davis wrote:
... a note off does nothing but terminate the sound
early.
That sounds pretty dramatic to me, no? As in:
- No Marie-Antoinette, You need not to be afraid - the guillotine will
only terminate Your life a little earlier ...
8:13 p.m.
New subject: successive note on midi events
On Tue, April 13, 2010 13:13, Paul Davis wrote:
On Tue, Apr 13, 2010 at 7:01 AM, Clemens Ladisch
<clemens(a)ladisch.de>
wrote:
Percussion sounds by any chance?
For instance, to simulate _not_ removing your hand when striking a bongo etc?
For sustained sounds, I'd guess that the
first note-off applies to all.
and then there are sounds that have their own "natural" length. my
kawai k5000 which does additive and wavetable synthesis has quite a
few patches that have "natural" decay/release curves built into the
patch. a note off does nothing but terminate the sound early. if you
don't send a note off, the voice will still decay, but it will hog one
of the available voice slots. 
8:27 p.m.
New subject: successive note on midi events
On Tue, Apr 13, 2010 at 11:12:57PM +0100, James Morris wrote:
Percussion sounds by any chance?
For instance, to simulate _not_ removing your hand when striking a bongo etc?
Anyone having a nice tabla emulation via MIDI ?
Ciao,
--
FA
O tu, che porte, correndo si ?
E guerra e morte !
9:54 p.m.
New subject: successive note on midi events
On Tue, Apr 13, 2010 at 6:22 PM, <fons(a)kokkinizita.net> wrote:
On Tue, Apr 13, 2010 at 11:12:57PM +0100, James Morris
wrote:
the one in my roland handsonic, which has pad edge & center detection,
is pretty good as such things go.
Percussion sounds by any chance?
For instance, to simulate _not_ removing your hand when striking a bongo etc?
Anyone having a nice tabla emulation via MIDI ?
14 Apr
14 Apr
1:12 a.m.
New subject: successive note on midi events
fons(a)kokkinizita.net wrote:
On Tue, Apr 13, 2010 at 11:12:57PM +0100, James Morris
wrote:
> Percussion sounds by any chance?
>
> For instance, to simulate _not_ removing your hand when striking a bongo etc?
>
There are two ways to do this, by using different sounds or by using
layers for one sound, but this will result in something that isn't as
good as a real instrument would be. But e.g. the European factory ROM's
Harp sound for the first DX7 could be controlled by the sustain pedal.
It doesn't cause sustain but worked as a damper. So a solution isn't to
deal with missing note off events, but to have very complex envelops
that can be effected by CC.
Anyone having a nice tabla emulation via MIDI ?
Ciao,
Hahaha, no, such kind of percussion does sound good for the demos, just
for the demo rhythm and when doing your own song, it doesn't work any
more. But I know a drummer having modern Roland equipment, for this
equipment there are some possibilities, that might enable a "nice tabla
emulation".
I'll send your request Bcc to him.
1:37 a.m.
New subject: successive note on midi events
Ralf Mardorf wrote:
fons(a)kokkinizita.net wrote:
European factory ROM 1 bank B especially for sound 30 HARP 2
A note played while the sustain pedal was not hold will normally release
even if the pedal is hold after the note was played, while any notes
played then, with the sustain pedal hold, will be damped = have less
release. This sounds nearly identically to Andreas Vollenweider's harp
playing in the 80ies.
And because of Roland equipment, as Paul has written, the pads do have
several places that might control different sounds and in addition this
sounds have layers.
On Tue, Apr 13, 2010 at 11:12:57PM +0100, James
Morris wrote:
> Percussion sounds by any chance?
>
> For instance, to simulate _not_ removing your hand when striking a
> bongo etc?
>
There are two ways to do this, by using different sounds or by using
layers for one sound, but this will result in something that isn't as
good as a real instrument would be. But e.g. the European factory
ROM's Harp sound for the first DX7 could be controlled by the sustain
pedal. It doesn't cause sustain but worked as a damper. So a solution
isn't to deal with missing note off events, but to have very complex
envelops that can be effected by CC.
Anyone having a nice tabla emulation via MIDI ?
Ciao,
Hahaha, no, such kind of percussion does sound good for the demos,
just for the demo rhythm and when doing your own song, it doesn't work
any more. But I know a drummer having modern Roland equipment, for
this equipment there are some possibilities, that might enable a "nice
tabla emulation".
I'll send your request Bcc to him. 
12 Apr
12 Apr
11:53 a.m.
New subject: successive note on midi events
On Monday 12 April 2010 02:07:07 Jens M Andreasen wrote:
all the best,
drew
_______________________________________________
Linux-audio-dev mailing list
Linux-audio-dev(a)lists.linuxaudio.org
http://lists.linuxaudio.org/listinfo/linux-audio-dev
!DSPAM:4bc2b93b228703727916414!
On Mon, 2010-04-12 at 00:52 +0100, James Morris
wrote:
So... which "real" instruments work like a, which like b, and which like c?
On Mon, April 12, 2010 00:38, James Morris
wrote:
The question is what happens at the other end when a note gets struck a
second time.
a) Nothing, the note is already on.
b) Re-trigger, the voice is reset and the note gets played from the top
c) Trigger, a new voice is assigned and will play simultaneously to
previous voices Hi,
I'm pretty sure I've seen this dealt with on the list before, but can't
find it.
With the program I'm fumbling around trying to create, it will be
possible for successive note on events for the same pitch to occur
without note off events intervening.
Does the MIDI spec allow such things?
Sorry to answer myself so soon...
I guess it is allowed. The simplest case being a sequencer outputting to
the same channel and port as a keyboard player. Nothing can prevent this
- right? And there's no way in the world that missing
note-offs could be added in,
in a fashion guaranteed to cover all possible permutations of
connections, or without delaying the note-on which implies a missing
note-off.
An all-notes-off will take care of any missing note-offs
> James. The bash-script prototype of the program did
this, and, I believe, the
soft-synths used, acted appropriately - that is, re-triggered the
notes. So I guess the question is, does it make any difference if I
add-in the note-off events - which, thinking about it, is going to be
tricky because, basically, although the program is sequencing, it will
be real time and is not psychic!
Cheers,
James.
_______________________________________________
Linux-audio-dev mailing list
Linux-audio-dev(a)lists.linuxaudio.org
http://lists.linuxaudio.org/listinfo/linux-audio-dev
_______________________________________________
Linux-audio-dev mailing list
Linux-audio-dev(a)lists.linuxaudio.org
http://lists.linuxaudio.org/listinfo/linux-audio-dev
12:04 p.m.
New subject: successive note on midi events
On Mon, Apr 12, 2010 at 9:53 AM, drew Roberts <zotz(a)100jamz.com> wrote:
most acoustic instruments works like (b) because their sound producing
mechanisms use a particular set of material (possibly the entire
instrument) to generate a particular note. if you just hit/stroke/blow
it again, it starts a new sound using the same note.
i can't think of any acoustic instruments that can do (c) because it
would imply some means of generating more than 1 "copy" of the same
voice.
(a) would imply an instrument that can just ignored a performance
gesture some fo the time, and again, its hard to think of any acoustic
instrument that could do that.
The question
is what happens at the other end when a note gets struck a
second time.
a) Nothing, the note is already on.
b) Re-trigger, the voice is reset and the note gets played from the top
c) Trigger, a new voice is assigned and will play simultaneously to
previous voices
So... which "real" instruments work like a, which like b, and which like c?
12:24 p.m.
New subject: successive note on midi events
Paul Davis wrote:
On Mon, Apr 12, 2010 at 9:53 AM, drew Roberts
<zotz(a)100jamz.com> wrote:
most acoustic instruments works like (b) because their sound producing
mechanisms use a particular set of material (possibly the entire
instrument) to generate a particular note. if you just hit/stroke/blow
it again, it starts a new sound using the same note.
i can't think of any acoustic instruments that can do (c) because it
would imply some means of generating more than 1 "copy" of the same
voice.
(a) would imply an instrument that can just ignored a performance
gesture some fo the time, and again, its hard to think of any acoustic
instrument that could do that.
Because of c) you seems to be right OTOH e.g. a natural tom or snare
played two times does sound different to a drum sample played two times,
while the first sample is cut, but if the first sample isn't cut it
sounds relatively natural. Perhaps because of a time difference for the
transient oscillation of the resonance head?
The
question is what happens at the other end when a note gets struck a
second time.
a) Nothing, the note is already on.
b) Re-trigger, the voice is reset and the note gets played from the top
c) Trigger, a new voice is assigned and will play simultaneously to
previous voices
So... which "real" instruments work like a, which like b, and
which like c?
12:31 p.m.
New subject: successive note on midi events
On Mon, Apr 12, 2010 at 10:24 AM, Ralf Mardorf
<ralf.mardorf(a)alice-dsl.net> wrote:
Because of c) you seems to be right OTOH e.g. a
natural tom or snare played
two times does sound different to a drum sample played two times, while the
first sample is cut, but if the first sample isn't cut it sounds relatively
natural. Perhaps because of a time difference for the transient oscillation
of the resonance head?
(b) was "retriggering" or "the voice is reset and the note gets played
from the top".
obviously there is no fixed rule about how complete the reset is, and
certainly hitting the head of a drum that is already oscillating will
cause the production of a different sound than hitting one that was at
rest. nevertheless, its still the case that in some fairly deep sense,
the voice *is* reset, and a new note is played from the top. the same
is true on the piano for example.
12:29 p.m.
New subject: successive note on midi events
Paul Davis wrote:
On Mon, Apr 12, 2010 at 9:53 AM, drew Roberts
<zotz(a)100jamz.com> wrote:
most acoustic instruments works like (b) because their sound producing
mechanisms use a particular set of material (possibly the entire
instrument) to generate a particular note. if you just hit/stroke/blow
it again, it starts a new sound using the same note.
i can't think of any acoustic instruments that can do (c) because it
would imply some means of generating more than 1 "copy" of the same
voice.
(a) would imply an instrument that can just ignored a performance
gesture some fo the time, and again, its hard to think of any acoustic
instrument that could do that.
c) If you e.g. play the e string of a guitar at the 5th fret and then
the a string, while the guitar is normal e, a, d, g, b, e tuned.
The
question is what happens at the other end when a note gets struck a
second time.
a) Nothing, the note is already on.
b) Re-trigger, the voice is reset and the note gets played from the top
c) Trigger, a new voice is assigned and will play simultaneously to
previous voices
So... which "real" instruments work like a, which like b, and
which like c?
12:33 p.m.
New subject: successive note on midi events
On Mon, Apr 12, 2010 at 10:28 AM, Ralf Mardorf
<ralf.mardorf(a)alice-dsl.net> wrote:
c) If you e.g. play the e string of a guitar at the
5th fret and then the a
string, while the guitar is normal e, a, d, g, b, e tuned.
this is not equivalent to the polyphony offered by an electronic
keyboard. the tone generated by the e-string+5th fret is not the same
as the tone generated by the open a-string (the overtone series is
different).
on an electronic keyboard that is using option (c), the two tones
generated will (likely) be identical (they don't have to be, but they
probably would be).
12:43 p.m.
New subject: successive note on midi events
Paul Davis wrote:
On Mon, Apr 12, 2010 at 10:28 AM, Ralf Mardorf
<ralf.mardorf(a)alice-dsl.net> wrote:
Yes, you're right because of the drums and the guitar.
c) If you e.g. play the e string of a guitar at
the 5th fret and then the a
string, while the guitar is normal e, a, d, g, b, e tuned.
this is not equivalent to the polyphony offered by an electronic
keyboard. the tone generated by the e-string+5th fret is not the same
as the tone generated by the open a-string (the overtone series is
different).
on an electronic keyboard that is using option (c), the two tones
generated will (likely) be identical (they don't have to be, but they
probably would be).
12:44 p.m.
New subject: successive note on midi events
On Mon, Apr 12, 2010 at 10:33:00AM -0400, Paul Davis wrote:
On Mon, Apr 12, 2010 at 10:28 AM, Ralf Mardorf
<ralf.mardorf(a)alice-dsl.net> wrote:
i dont see how real instruments and midi events are related.
this is pretty OT :P
c) If you e.g. play the e string of a guitar at
the 5th fret and then the a
string, while the guitar is normal e, a, d, g, b, e tuned.
this is not equivalent to the polyphony offered by an electronic
keyboard. the tone generated by the e-string+5th fret is not the same
as the tone generated by the open a-string (the overtone series is
different).
on an electronic keyboard that is using option (c), the two tones
generated will (likely) be identical (they don't have to be, but they
probably would be).
_______________________________________________
Linux-audio-dev mailing list
Linux-audio-dev(a)lists.linuxaudio.org
http://lists.linuxaudio.org/listinfo/linux-audio-dev
--
torben Hohn
2:51 p.m.
New subject: successive note on midi events
i dont see how real instruments and midi events are
related.
this is pretty OT :P
MIDI has been always about real musical instruments. Do you think that
electronic instruments are not real? The Yamaha Disklavier is not a real
instrument? A MIDIfied pipe organ?
Regards,
Pedro
5:08 p.m.
New subject: successive note on midi events
On Monday 12 April 2010, at 18.51.26, "Pedro Lopez-Cabanillas"
<pedro.lopez.cabanillas(a)gmail.com> wrote:
...or any pipe organ at all, for that matter. Look at the labels on the stops.
It's a pneumatic synthesizer! :-)
--
//David Olofson - Developer, Artist, Open Source Advocate
.--- Games, examples, libraries, scripting, sound, music, graphics ---.
| http://olofson.net http://kobodeluxe.com http://audiality.org |
| http://eel.olofson.net http://zeespace.net http://reologica.se |
'---------------------------------------------------------------------'
i dont see how
real instruments and midi events are related.
this is pretty OT :P
MIDI has been always about real musical instruments. Do you think that
electronic instruments are not real? The Yamaha Disklavier is not a real
instrument? A MIDIfied pipe organ?
12:43 p.m.
New subject: successive note on midi events
On Mon, 2010-04-12 at 16:28 +0200, Ralf Mardorf wrote:
c) If you e.g. play the e string of a guitar at the
5th fret and then
the a string, while the guitar is normal e, a, d, g, b, e tuned.
Nope.
The six strings on a guitar behaves like 6 monophonic synths, each
having their own individual sound and channel.
A on the E-string sounds nothing like the A-string itself, and is most
likely not even the exact same pitch.
4:15 a.m.
New subject: successive note on midi events
James Morris wrote:
On Mon, April 12, 2010 00:38, James Morris wrote:
Regularly you shouldn't connect two output devices to one input device
without using a MIDI merge box.
Anyway, the receiving MIDI equipment might be able to handle successive
note on events for the same note number, while they were received
without note off events between those notes, but it's not good to send
no note off events, resp. note on events withe a velocity value of 0.
Drumsamplers and monophonic synth might be able to handle this, but for
polyphonic synth you could run into trouble.
Hi,
I'm pretty sure I've seen this dealt with on the list before, but can't
find it.
With the program I'm fumbling around trying to create, it will be possible
for successive note on events for the same pitch to occur without note off
events intervening.
Does the MIDI spec allow such things?
Sorry to answer myself so soon...
I guess it is allowed. The simplest case being a sequencer outputting to
the same channel and port as a keyboard player. Nothing can prevent this -
right?
And there's no way in the world that missing
note-offs could be added in,
in a fashion guaranteed to cover all possible permutations of connections,
or without delaying the note-on which implies a missing note-off.
Correct.
James.
> The bash-script prototype of the program did this, and, I believe, the
> soft-synths used, acted appropriately - that is, re-triggered the notes.
> So I guess the question is, does it make any difference if I add-in the
> note-off events - which, thinking about it, is going to be tricky because,
> basically, although the program is sequencing, it will be real time and is
> not psychic!
>
>
> Cheers,
> James.
4:35 a.m.
New subject: successive note on midi events
James Morris wrote:
On Mon, April 12, 2010 00:38, James Morris wrote:
Btw. how do you handle running status? I guess you are talking about
connections made by JACK or ALSA MIDI, so you don't need a MIDI merge
box and you don't have to take care because of the running status? Note
that the MIDI spec was made to connect hardware devices too. I'm not
sure if you need to take care of the MIDI spec, maybe JACK and ALSA will
smooth away difficulties for you. I don't program for Linux, but did it
for hardware devices.
Hi,
I'm pretty sure I've seen this dealt with on the list before, but can't
find it.
With the program I'm fumbling around trying to create, it will be possible
for successive note on events for the same pitch to occur without note off
events intervening.
Does the MIDI spec allow such things?
Sorry to answer myself so soon...
I guess it is allowed. The simplest case being a sequencer outputting to
the same channel and port as a keyboard player. Nothing can prevent this -
right?
9:55 a.m.
New subject: successive note on midi events
On Mon, April 12, 2010 07:35, Ralf Mardorf wrote:
James Morris wrote:
The program is going use JACK MIDI, and all events must be sent in full
for JACK MIDI, IIRC.
I have a substantial lack of studio/MIDI hardware here, so I'm used to
thinking in terms of software implementations, plus, I've only ever used
the basics in sequencers so am not in a strong position for implementing a
MIDI program.
Maybe it's a major flaw in the overall concept of the program:
given a rhythmic pattern, sequence it, and determine the pitch/velocity
data for each event in the pattern by placing a box into a 127x127 grid
where it will fit without overlapping any other.
((the boxes will have width and height, and can hang around after note off))
Basically, it leaves me with three options, none of which I like:
given a single channel, and the possibility that successive note-on events
occur with missing note-off events:
1) once note on, prevent further note on events until note off for that
pitch has occurred..
2) when a missing note-off detected, delay the note-on by the smallest
amount of time possible, and insert the note-off in place of it.
3) disallow the pattern to have note durations which overlap the next note
on.
4) do it anyway and warn the user it may cause problems.
5) let the user choose from above.
Anyway, it's all far from becoming a working program yet, but this
specific problem needs dealing with at this stage.
Ta,
James.
On Mon, April 12, 2010 00:38, James Morris
wrote:
Btw. how do you handle running status? I guess you are talking about
connections made by JACK or ALSA MIDI, so you don't need a MIDI merge
box and you don't have to take care because of the running status? Note
that the MIDI spec was made to connect hardware devices too. I'm not
sure if you need to take care of the MIDI spec, maybe JACK and ALSA will
smooth away difficulties for you. I don't program for Linux, but did it
for hardware devices. Hi,
I'm pretty sure I've seen this dealt with on the list before, but can't
find it.
With the program I'm fumbling around trying to create, it will be
possible
for successive note on events for the same pitch to occur without note
off
events intervening.
Does the MIDI spec allow such things?
Sorry to answer myself so soon...
I guess it is allowed. The simplest case being a sequencer outputting to
the same channel and port as a keyboard player. Nothing can prevent this
-
right?
10:31 a.m.
New subject: successive note on midi events
James Morris wrote:
On Mon, April 12, 2010 07:35, Ralf Mardorf wrote:
Important:
Cancel option 2) this is bullshit. Never delay the start of a note ...
Just blah blah:
... ,excepted the delay is really, really small. But what is really,
really small?
Avoiding legato seems to be the best idea, I guess you should test 3).
But I do not really understand what you try to do and I don't have any
idea how to program using JACK or ALSA. For the "regular" sequencers
there aren't such issues, resp. if you enable editing for moving length
and positions of notes you could become trouble because of the anchor. I
guess the coders programming the known Linux sequencers are able to help
you with this, but IIUC this isn't your problem.
James Morris wrote:
The program is going use JACK MIDI, and all events must be sent in full
for JACK MIDI, IIRC.
I have a substantial lack of studio/MIDI hardware here, so I'm used to
thinking in terms of software implementations, plus, I've only ever used
the basics in sequencers so am not in a strong position for implementing a
MIDI program.
Maybe it's a major flaw in the overall concept of the program:
given a rhythmic pattern, sequence it, and determine the pitch/velocity
data for each event in the pattern by placing a box into a 127x127 grid
where it will fit without overlapping any other.
((the boxes will have width and height, and can hang around after note off))
Basically, it leaves me with three options, none of which I like:
given a single channel, and the possibility that successive note-on events
occur with missing note-off events:
1) once note on, prevent further note on events until note off for that
pitch has occurred..
2) when a missing note-off detected, delay the note-on by the smallest
amount of time possible, and insert the note-off in place of it.
3) disallow the pattern to have note durations which overlap the next note
on.
4) do it anyway and warn the user it may cause problems.
5) let the user choose from above.
Anyway, it's all far from becoming a working program yet, but this
specific problem needs dealing with at this stage.
Ta,
James. On Mon, April 12, 2010 00:38, James Morris
wrote:
Btw. how do you handle running status? I guess you are talking about
connections made by JACK or ALSA MIDI, so you don't need a MIDI merge
box and you don't have to take care because of the running status? Note
that the MIDI spec was made to connect hardware devices too. I'm not
sure if you need to take care of the MIDI spec, maybe JACK and ALSA will
smooth away difficulties for you. I don't program for Linux, but did it
for hardware devices.
Hi,
I'm pretty sure I've seen this dealt with on the list before, but can't
find it.
With the program I'm fumbling around trying to create, it will be
possible
for successive note on events for the same pitch to occur without note
off
events intervening.
Does the MIDI spec allow such things?
Sorry to answer myself so soon...
I guess it is allowed. The simplest case being a sequencer outputting to
the same channel and port as a keyboard player. Nothing can prevent this
-
right?
5288
days inactive
5290
days old
linux-audio-dev@lists.linuxaudio.org
37 comments
12 participants
participants (12)
-
Arnold Krille -
Clemens Ladisch -
David Olofson -
drew Roberts -
fons＠kokkinizita.net -
James Morris -
Jens M Andreasen -
Paul Davis -
Pedro Lopez-Cabanillas -
Ralf Mardorf -
Thorsten Wilms -
torbenh