4 May
2004
4 May
'04
4:34 a.m.
Hi .*,
I am doing my PhD at the University of Waikato's Music Department, NZ with
Ian Whalley.
I am going to develop a Web-based interactive sound art system allowing
composers/players to incorporate aesthetic approaches from electronic
music, net.art, sonic art and soundscapes.
I am trying to get away from using MIDI in favour of OSC and direct DSP on
the audio (That's why I'm thinking of using SuperCollider). I will direct
much attention to the musical quality of the system's output, possibly in
exchange for not getting a decent interface done.
Features will basically be:
- "off-line" interface for composers to create sound art
pieces/installation for the web (this is where there must be a framework
to allow "composition" of the Net's peculiarities (latency, jitter,
interaction between the players, etc...) in addition to the usual musical
parameters
- on-line interface for "players" to mess around with the installation
- All that probably in a p2p approach using a server only for net-address
brokerage
An outdated proposal of this can be found at:
http://www.niklaswerner.de/Assets/PhD-Thesis-Expose_EN.pdf
Is anybody already working on such a beast (or similar, of course) or
knows anybody who is? (I am aware of quintet-net, peersynth, FMOL,
jam2jam, webdrum/JSyn, Dase, Lemu and some others and have contacted
their authors)
Is SuperCollider really up to that challenge or does another programming
language spring to anybody's mind?
Have fun*
Niklas
4 May
4 May
5:48 a.m.
Hallo,
Niklas Werner hat gesagt: // Niklas Werner wrote:
I am doing my PhD at the University of Waikato's
Music Department, NZ with
Ian Whalley.
I am going to develop a Web-based interactive sound art system allowing
composers/players to incorporate aesthetic approaches from electronic
music, net.art, sonic art and soundscapes.
I am trying to get away from using MIDI in favour of OSC and direct DSP on
the audio (That's why I'm thinking of using SuperCollider).
Many other applications also support OSC. For web based installations
and for many other things I'd say, OSC is the way to go. It just
misses hardware support. ;) You can go the flash route and use flosc
os similar, or incoporate Java plugins or even just CGI.
Is anybody already working on such a beast (or
similar, of course) or
knows anybody who is? (I am aware of quintet-net, peersynth, FMOL,
jam2jam, webdrum/JSyn, Dase, Lemu and some others and have contacted
their authors)
You're sadly missing Pd (Pure Data) in this list, which is used
immensly often in sound installations on the web although it might not
be visible upfront. Just ask on pd-list and there will pop up a lot of
examples like the work by Pall Thayer, http://www.this.is/pallit/
Ciao
--
Frank Barknecht _ ______footils.org__
7:31 a.m.
Hallo,
Frank Barknecht hat gesagt: // Frank Barknecht wrote:
Many other applications also support OSC. For web
based installations
and for many other things I'd say, OSC is the way to go. It just
misses hardware support. ;) You can go the flash route and use flosc
os similar, or incoporate Java plugins or even just CGI.
I forgot to mention SVG as well here, which I'm currently evaluating
as a free flash alternative myself. See http://www.w3.org/TR/SVG/
Ciao
--
Frank Barknecht _ ______footils.org__
7:54 a.m.
Le mar 04/05/2004 à 11:24, Frank Barknecht a écrit :
Hallo,
Frank Barknecht hat gesagt: // Frank Barknecht wrote:
Yep, I agree. What annoyes me in Pall Thayer's work
(http://www.this.is/pallit/) that you mentionned in your previous mail
is the fact that it relies on proprietary technologies (Java or Flash),
which means that GNU/Linux users who do not want to use proprietary
software will be excluded from it.
Furthermore, I'd be very happy if he would agree to distribute his
developments under the GPL, so that other artists can benefit from it.
fd
Many other applications also support OSC. For web
based installations
and for many other things I'd say, OSC is the way to go. It just
misses hardware support. ;) You can go the flash route and use flosc
os similar, or incoporate Java plugins or even just CGI.
I forgot to mention SVG as well here, which I'm currently evaluating
as a free flash alternative myself. See http://www.w3.org/TR/SVG/
Ciao
8:49 a.m.
Hallo,
Francois Dechelle hat gesagt: // Francois Dechelle wrote:
Yep, I agree. What annoyes me in Pall Thayer's
work
(http://www.this.is/pallit/) that you mentionned in your previous mail
is the fact that it relies on proprietary technologies (Java or Flash),
which means that GNU/Linux users who do not want to use proprietary
software will be excluded from it.
And mp3-streaming... ;) Plus Flash is so slow on Linux. Do you happen
to have some pointers at hand at how to make good use of SVG for Web
based installations?
Furthermore, I'd be very happy if he would agree
to distribute his
developments under the GPL, so that other artists can benefit from it.
I don't know the license, but there are some exmple patches somewhere
on his website. I'll have to dig them out one time...
Ciao
--
Frank Barknecht _ ______footils.org__
9:11 a.m.
On Tuesday 04 May 2004 12.41, Frank Barknecht wrote:
Hallo,
Francois Dechelle hat gesagt: // Francois Dechelle wrote:
Another interesting thing is the Blender game engine. In the latest Blender
release the game engine was re-enabled (it was disabled since it relied on
proprietary libraries, since then they where aparently opened up).
It was a long time since I looked at this, but I remember there was a browser
plugin for it. I don't know if the plugin has reemerged yet, I guess it will
though. In any case, it seemed possible to do quite remarkable things with
it.
/Robert
Yep, I agree. What annoyes me in Pall
Thayer's work
(http://www.this.is/pallit/) that you mentionned in your previous mail
is the fact that it relies on proprietary technologies (Java or Flash),
which means that GNU/Linux users who do not want to use proprietary
software will be excluded from it.
And mp3-streaming... ;) Plus Flash is so slow on Linux. Do you happen
to have some pointers at hand at how to make good use of SVG for Web
based installations?
11:38 a.m.
Le mar 04/05/2004 à 12:59, Robert Jonsson a écrit :
Another interesting thing is the Blender game engine. In the latest Blender
release the game engine was re-enabled (it was disabled since it relied on
proprietary libraries, since then they where aparently opened up).
It was a long time since I looked at this, but I remember there was a browser
plugin for it. I don't know if the plugin has reemerged yet, I guess it will
though. In any case, it seemed possible to do quite remarkable things with
it.
There is a browser plugin, but it is not supported for now:
http://www.blender3d.org/Download/?sub=Plugin
fd
11:33 a.m.
Le mar 04/05/2004 à 12:41, Frank Barknecht a écrit :
Hallo,
And mp3-streaming... ;) Plus Flash is so slow on Linux. Do you happen
to have some pointers at hand at how to make good use of SVG for Web
based installations?
For mp3, we have OGG which has a windows plug-in, so that I think this
is not the problem.
I've searched a little bit for SVG, but right now I have not found a GPL
implementation of a SVG viewer. Neither a SVG plug-in for mozilla
(Mozilla has SVG support integrated, but it is not enabled in standard
compilations; conclusion: you need to rebuild your mozilla to get svg;
very funny).
fd
12:09 p.m.
On Tue, May 04, 2004 at 03:25:45 +0200, Francois Dechelle wrote:
I've searched a little bit for SVG, but right now
I have not found a GPL
implementation of a SVG viewer. Neither a SVG plug-in for mozilla
(Mozilla has SVG support integrated, but it is not enabled in standard
compilations; conclusion: you need to rebuild your mozilla to get svg;
very funny).
Adobe make a closed-source SVG implementation for mozilla, but I've not got
it to work on recent mozilla with fedora. Had it working OK on RH8 or 9.
- Steve
12:14 p.m.
Hi,
Francois Dechelle <Francois.Dechelle(a)ircam.fr> wrote:
I've searched a little bit for SVG, but right now
I have not found a GPL
implementation of a SVG viewer. Neither a SVG plug-in for mozilla
(Mozilla has SVG support integrated, but it is not enabled in standard
compilations; conclusion: you need to rebuild your mozilla to get svg;
very funny).
I also did a bit of searching now and found, that there are some nice
tools available for SVG on Linux, although the browser situation is
indeed a bit sad. First Gnome/Gtk directly can display SVG images or icons,
and für Konqueror there seems to be a SVG plugin inside KSVG. As I don't
run KDE I didn't test it, but it looks like a nice solution for web
based installations. Website is at svg.kde.org
KSVG has the nice advantage, that it supports Javascript, which is
important for interactivity.
Also there is sodipodi(.com) which is a kind of Gimp for SVG. Really nice
as well. Now I only need to find some Python modules for SVG - maybe
explore Biggles and Sketch - so that it can run cleanly inside my
web app.
Ciao
--
Frank Barknecht _ ___footils.org_
1:03 p.m.
Le mar 04/05/2004 à 16:06, Frank Barknecht a écrit :
Hi,
I also did a bit of searching now and found, that there are some nice
tools available for SVG on Linux, although the browser situation is
indeed a bit sad. First Gnome/Gtk directly can display SVG images or icons,
and für Konqueror there seems to be a SVG plugin inside KSVG. As I don't
run KDE I didn't test it, but it looks like a nice solution for web
based installations. Website is at svg.kde.org
KSVG has the nice advantage, that it supports Javascript, which is
important for interactivity.
Also there is sodipodi(.com) which is a kind of Gimp for SVG. Really nice
as well. Now I only need to find some Python modules for SVG - maybe
explore Biggles and Sketch - so that it can run cleanly inside my
web app.
OK, but for web installations that are supposed to be accessible for
everyone, it is not that convenient :( Even the requirements for a
plug-in installation is questionnable.
fd
7:51 p.m.
On Tue, 04 May 2004 21:46, Francois Dechelle wrote:
Furthermore, I'd be very happy if he would agree
to distribute his
developments under the GPL, so that other artists can benefit from it.
No worries, I am going to. (Except if some random acts of god make me do
it differently)
Cheers,
Niklas
7:57 a.m.
Le mar 04/05/2004 à 09:41, Frank Barknecht a écrit :
Many other applications also support OSC. For web based installations
and for many other things I'd say, OSC is the way to go. It just
misses hardware support. ;) You can go the flash route and use flosc
os similar, or incoporate Java plugins or even just CGI.
Are there any free implementation of OSC for web based interaction?
Something like a PHP implementation of OSC (that would be my favorite),
or a Java or CGI implementation, that would be between the web server
and the OSC-aware application?
fd
2:39 p.m.
Francois Dechelle wrote:
Are there any free implementation of OSC for web based
interaction?
Something like a PHP implementation of OSC (that would be my favorite),
or a Java or CGI implementation, that would be between the web server
and the OSC-aware application?
Like this? http://www.a2hd.com/software/
Python and Perl seem to have OSC interfaces, too. I haven't tried any of
these, though.
If you're into functional programming then you might wish to take a look
at Q which has a web interface including an Apache module (fairly basic,
but enough to generate dynamic content), as well as OSC and SC3
interfaces. See http://q-lang.sourceforge.net/.
In fact, programming OSC in a high-level language with primitives to
manipulate binary data is not a big deal. E.g., the Q-OSC interface
implements all standard OSC features including nested bundles, along
with a simple UDP transport layer, in just some 120 lines of code.
--
Dr. Albert Gr"af
Email: Dr.Graef(a)t-online.de, ag(a)muwiinfa.geschichte.uni-mainz.de
WWW: http://www.musikwissenschaft.uni-mainz.de/~ag
7:50 p.m.
On Tue, 04 May 2004 19:41, Frank Barknecht wrote:
I was not
listing programming languages, but projects. I am quite aware of
Pd! (I just don't like for basically the same reasons I don't like MAX:
not really OO, too much clicky, terrible interface, BUT: this should not
start a flame-war)
Cheers,
Niklas
Is anybody
already working on such a beast (or similar, of course) or
knows anybody who is? (I am aware of quintet-net, peersynth, FMOL,
jam2jam, webdrum/JSyn, Dase, Lemu and some others and have contacted
their authors)
You're sadly missing Pd (Pure Data) in this list, which is used
immensly often in sound installations on the web although it might not
1:11 p.m.
Hi,
Interesting project.
I assume that players (people sitting in front of their web interface ?)
listen via streaming. Which format will you use/recommend?
For p2p, peercast (http://www.peercast.org/) is a broadcasting p2p
application that may be usefull for your project.
fd
Le mar 04/05/2004 à 08:26, Niklas Werner a écrit :
Hi .*,
I am doing my PhD at the University of Waikato's Music Department, NZ with
Ian Whalley.
I am going to develop a Web-based interactive sound art system allowing
composers/players to incorporate aesthetic approaches from electronic
music, net.art, sonic art and soundscapes.
I am trying to get away from using MIDI in favour of OSC and direct DSP on
the audio (That's why I'm thinking of using SuperCollider). I will direct
much attention to the musical quality of the system's output, possibly in
exchange for not getting a decent interface done.
Features will basically be:
- "off-line" interface for composers to create sound art
pieces/installation for the web (this is where there must be a framework
to allow "composition" of the Net's peculiarities (latency, jitter,
interaction between the players, etc...) in addition to the usual musical
parameters
- on-line interface for "players" to mess around with the installation
- All that probably in a p2p approach using a server only for net-address
brokerage
An outdated proposal of this can be found at:
http://www.niklaswerner.de/Assets/PhD-Thesis-Expose_EN.pdf
Is anybody already working on such a beast (or similar, of course) or
knows anybody who is? (I am aware of quintet-net, peersynth, FMOL,
jam2jam, webdrum/JSyn, Dase, Lemu and some others and have contacted
their authors)
Is SuperCollider really up to that challenge or does another programming
language spring to anybody's mind?
Have fun*
Niklas
7:54 p.m.
On Wed, 05 May 2004 03:03, Francois Dechelle wrote:
Hi,
Interesting project.
thanks.
I assume that players (people sitting in front of
their web interface
?) listen via streaming. Which format will you use/recommend?
Yes, streams. mp3 or ogg. although the actual players' stream and a
separate listeners stream might have different needs regarding
bandwidth..
For p2p, peercast (http://www.peercast.org/) is a
broadcasting p2p
application that may be usefull for your project.
At the moment I was thinking along the lines of using icecast for
streaming, since that does not need anybody to download YAMP (Yet Another
Media Player)
Have fun*
Niklas
7599
days inactive
7599
days old
linux-audio-dev@lists.linuxaudio.org
16 comments
6 participants
participants (6)
-
Dr.Graef＠t-online.de -
Francois Dechelle -
Frank Barknecht -
Niklas Werner -
Robert Jonsson -
Steve Harris