10 Aug
2004
10 Aug
'04
3:41 p.m.
Hi all,
Does anyone know of a page somewhere that explains just what (on a
developer level) MIDI "groove" is? I want to implement it in a
sequencer, but all I can find is user documentation pages with useless
information.
Is it as simple as each note having a time offset (ie snare is early .5
ms, hi-hate late 1ms, etc.) or something more?
Thanks..
-DR-
10 Aug
10 Aug
4:03 p.m.
Hallo,
Dave Robillard hat gesagt: // Dave Robillard wrote:
Does anyone know of a page somewhere that explains
just what (on a
developer level) MIDI "groove" is? I want to implement it in a
sequencer, but all I can find is user documentation pages with useless
information.
Is it as simple as each note having a time offset (ie snare is early .5
ms, hi-hate late 1ms, etc.) or something more?
This classic Masters-At-Work house music shuffle swing thang is just
delaying every second (8th rsp. 16th) note a bit. I do this in my Pd
sequencers using percentage values (like delay notes by 66 percent of
the straight note lenght) and it's quite groovy afterwards. I also
apply some gaussian randomness to the notes' onset times to simulate
human error (which I think should be distributed gaussian, shouldn't
it?) I'm not sure I can actually feel/hear that, though.
Another important part of the groove is offbeat syncopical notes
("what's missing is what makes it groove") and those ghost notes
drummers like to play all the time (let the stick jump a bit).
Ciao
--
Frank Barknecht _ ______footils.org__
5:35 p.m.
On Tue, 2004-08-10 at 13:48, Frank Barknecht wrote:
Hallo,
Dave Robillard hat gesagt: // Dave Robillard wrote:
So essentially what you're saying is "MIDI groove" isn't really a
well-defined thing, just a catch-all phrase for humanization/groove
techniques in sequencers and whatnot.
All the groove facilities (file formats, etc) in the major sequencers
seem to be very proprietary, so I figured as much. I suppose it's time
to get creative...
Thanks.
(Further ranting about MIDI timing stuff ensues)
The real question is whether it's possible to make a master clock
application that can do this sorta thing for all MIDI apps on the system
(MTC? MMC?). I'm already in desperate need of a master-BPM controller
for live performance, so I might as well do it right and get groove in
there.
As I understand MTC, it's just a byte sent so many times a quarter note,
so I think doing groove this way for all MTC speaking apps would be
feasible. (is that ever going to eat MIDI bandwidth though...)
As another related problem I need to make sooperlooper aware of when bar
divisions are (so looping is accurate and not prone to drift), and I
don't think MTC is adequate for that.. I think to really take control
of the entire system's timing a master time app will be needed that
speaks many different languages (MTC and probably jack transport,
others?)
Essentially I just need the best way to sync up seq24 and sooperlooper,
and get the BPM in to any app (ie synths and effects racks). Groove
would be nice though.
Thoughts?
-DR-
Does anyone know of a page somewhere that
explains just what (on a
developer level) MIDI "groove" is? I want to implement it in a
sequencer, but all I can find is user documentation pages with useless
information.
Is it as simple as each note having a time offset (ie snare is early .5
ms, hi-hate late 1ms, etc.) or something more?
This classic Masters-At-Work house music shuffle swing thang is just
delaying every second (8th rsp. 16th) note a bit. I do this in my Pd
sequencers using percentage values (like delay notes by 66 percent of
the straight note lenght) and it's quite groovy afterwards. I also
apply some gaussian randomness to the notes' onset times to simulate
human error (which I think should be distributed gaussian, shouldn't
it?) I'm not sure I can actually feel/hear that, though.
Another important part of the groove is offbeat syncopical notes
("what's missing is what makes it groove") and those ghost notes
drummers like to play all the time (let the stick jump a bit).
Ciao
6:14 p.m.
Hallo,
Dave Robillard hat gesagt: // Dave Robillard wrote:
So essentially what you're saying is "MIDI
groove" isn't really a
well-defined thing, just a catch-all phrase for humanization/groove
techniques in sequencers and whatnot.
Ahem, I don't know what Midi groove is, I never heard that term. I'm
just explaining how I groovify my note based events.
Ciao
--
Frank Barknecht _ ______footils.org__
6:24 p.m.
On Tue, Aug 10, 2004 at 03:20:51PM -0400, Dave Robillard wrote:
The real question is whether it's possible to make a master clock
application that can do this sorta thing for all MIDI apps on the system
(MTC? MMC?). I'm already in desperate need of a master-BPM controller
for live performance, so I might as well do it right and get groove in
there.
Groove quantization is not necessarily the same for all tracks.
Actualy one might need different ones for the right feel on
varying percussion instruments and slow attack sounds might
come better straight or with negative delay.
---
THorsten Wilms
6:37 p.m.
Greetings:
Craig Anderton wrote a good chapter about this subject in his "Power
Sequencing with Master Tracks Pro/Pro4" (Amsco Publications AM 76613).
Probably hard to find but worth the effort...
Best,
dp
6:48 p.m.
On Tue, 2004-08-10 at 16:08, Thorsten Wilms wrote:
On Tue, Aug 10, 2004 at 03:20:51PM -0400, Dave
Robillard wrote:
Hmm.. true. Pity, that master-groove app was a neat idea. :)
I guess a master tempo controller is the way to go, leaving groove to
individual apps.
-DR-
The real question is whether it's possible to make a master clock
application that can do this sorta thing for all MIDI apps on the system
(MTC? MMC?). I'm already in desperate need of a master-BPM controller
for live performance, so I might as well do it right and get groove in
there.
Groove quantization is not necessarily the same for all tracks.
Actualy one might need different ones for the right feel on
varying percussion instruments and slow attack sounds might
come better straight or with negative delay. 
11 Aug
11 Aug
5:30 a.m.
On Tue, Aug 10, 2004 at 03:20:51 -0400, Dave Robillard wrote:
As I understand MTC, it's just a byte sent so many
times a quarter note,
so I think doing groove this way for all MTC speaking apps would be
feasible. (is that ever going to eat MIDI bandwidth though...)
I think thats MIDI clock, but I'm not sure.
Personally, I'm a big fan of MIDI clock, because it plays well with
modular synths (software and hardware), but I think its difficult to sync
to in typical sequencer applications.
As another related problem I need to make sooperlooper
aware of when bar
divisions are (so looping is accurate and not prone to drift), and I
don't think MTC is adequate for that.. I think to really take control
of the entire system's timing a master time app will be needed that
speaks many different languages (MTC and probably jack transport,
others?)
I would just speak jack transport, and let specific tools do the jack
transport <-> MTC sync work. Better to have code in just one place.
I rememebr seeing a discussion about MTC<->JACK sync on IRC, or a list, I
think someone was working on it, but I'm not sure if its done. Its not
easy.
Essentially I just need the best way to sync up seq24
and sooperlooper,
and get the BPM in to any app (ie synths and effects racks). Groove
would be nice though.
Groove should be a feature of individual apps IMHO, it makes sense to
apply it to (say) a drum sequence, but you wouldnt neccesarily want it
applied to bassline sequencing or a delay. Groove is orthogonal to sync;
you can apply one without the other.
- Steve
10 Aug
10 Aug
5:38 p.m.
On Tue, Aug 10, 2004 at 07:48:22PM +0200, Frank Barknecht wrote:
Hallo,
Dave Robillard hat gesagt: // Dave Robillard wrote:
Hydrogen has a slider for each ("swing factor" and "human time"),
and I love the grooves I can get out of that app.
"human time" is just a small amount of randomness.
Might be worth a look at the code in libhydrogen
(it's mostly in src/Hydrogen.cpp afaict).
The "human time" feature can really help the feel, I think it's
because it makes "simultaneous" attacks slightly off from each other.
--
Paul Winkler
http://www.slinkp.com
Does anyone know of a page somewhere that
explains just what (on a
developer level) MIDI "groove" is? I want to implement it in a
sequencer, but all I can find is user documentation pages with useless
information.
Is it as simple as each note having a time offset (ie snare is early .5
ms, hi-hate late 1ms, etc.) or something more?
This classic Masters-At-Work house music shuffle swing thang is just
delaying every second (8th rsp. 16th) note a bit. I do this in my Pd
sequencers using percentage values (like delay notes by 66 percent of
the straight note lenght) and it's quite groovy afterwards. I also
apply some gaussian randomness to the notes' onset times to simulate
human error (which I think should be distributed gaussian, shouldn't
it?) I'm not sure I can actually feel/hear that, though.
8:53 p.m.
Hallo,
Paul Winkler hat gesagt: // Paul Winkler wrote:
Hydrogen has a slider for each ("swing
factor" and "human time"),
and I love the grooves I can get out of that app.
Yes, it's probably the same algorithm I'm using in Pd. A small example
track might be this on my site: http://footils.org/snd/even-more-fonk.ogg
Not exactly great music, but it grooves. It was all done in Pd using
the groovify I described (part of my rrad.pattseq patch on
pure-data.sf.net)
Ciao
--
Frank Barknecht _ ______footils.org__
7401
days inactive
7402
days old
linux-audio-dev@lists.linuxaudio.org
10 comments
7 participants
participants (7)
-
Dave Phillips -
Dave Robillard -
Frank Barknecht -
iain duncan -
Paul Winkler -
Steve Harris -
Thorsten Wilms