[linux-audio-dev] why is no-one responding are you all just a bunch of &*^%&^%^& wits???
12 Feb
2003
12 Feb
'03
9:39 a.m.
Hi Guys
This is quite a disturbing message..
nearly 2 weeks ago Paul Davis marked one of my messages as something
"seriously wrong" going on .. when libraries were compiling as dynamic
not static...
since then I have responded with full outputs of what is happening.
In response I sent full output of what was going on .. tried to sort it
out by myself and sent further results..
Okay some of it was too big to get to the list immediately pending "list
moderator" acceptance.. and then some of it just purely didn't get
responded to.
I have done everything I have asked of me from the list, including
Paul's responses ..and also taken my own initiatives following lack of
response and still have recieved no response.
Sure I am not a coder just a potential professional user.. but that
really shouldn't be an issue...
Okay some individuals responded to some of my initial questions, and
thankyou to the two of them.. however noone has responded to further
enquiries, after acting on the responses I did get..
Is it because I feigned mild support to Steinberg having (while
unreleased) versions of their software for Linux?? Or is it because I'm
obviously not a coder?? Is it simply because I used the wrong subject
line?
This disgusts me as about 2 years ago when I said I was going to give up
on Linux to the LAD lists a massive response came about saying I should
keep going and my opinions (not even problems relating to software
directly) were valued and necessary. Now when I have real problems
compiling something, contained with as much information I could forward
were included it seems it is irrelevant and no-one seems willing to
respond at all (let alone Paul) .. Other compile and/or configure
problems have been responded too earlier than mine (at all really as my
last few posts have not received any reply) even though I acted upon
all requests made of me.
I am active in all lists that I am involved in with any replies that I
may have a potential answer to and have been promoting this OS and in
particular the potential of Ardour to many fellow professionals in the
industry. I also have rad and learnt as much as I could to give
qualitative feedback to any problems I incur.
All I seek is the ability to use open source software in preference to
rip-off commercial apps. Yes, I admit there is potential for both to
exist on this platform and would use some commerical apps to aide in
crossover but that is not the point of this (ardour-dev) list.
It would seem only the MusE list responds to anything I send, and only a
few particular individuals at that.
Aside from being upset, it appears to me that you guys are all a bunch
of hypocrites.. Asking for further information, and clarification but
never actually responding, while I do everything that I can possibly
thing\k of in aiding you answer my questions.. yet continue to be
ignored... It does not seem to be a coincidence that all response ended
after my response to the string "ahem".
So I've wasted 2+ years of my life and countless dollars continuing down
this path.
Yes this is an emotional response as it seems like my friends advised me
I should have just bought a Mac ,, inferior latency aside.. at least the
support groups there (even those non-funded as this list) genuinely
help.
My only problem is , where do I go from here?? This really saddens me as
I thought this (Linux) was the future. It seems it is only a future for
the GPL elite.
extremely pissed off
Allan Klinbail
12 Feb
12 Feb
9:56 a.m.
I'm not a "real coder" either (so one might argue I shouldn't be on
linux-audio-dev, but I'm just interested in the discussions), so I think
I understand the root cause of your grief.
I think if (if) the Ardour developers are _expecting_ quality feedback
from normal users (not just programmers) at this stage, they should
provide tarballs of the stable CVS snapshots they want to be tested.
But maybe they want to wait for 1.0 before letting endusers test it?
In that case, maybe you tried to use it too early in its development ?
I think they honestly appreciate your effort to participate, there
should be no doubt about that, but maybe Ardour is still changing too
rapidly for you to be able to track it.
I think only the developers of Ardour can clear out this question.
best regards,
Vincent
10:35 a.m.
I think if (if) the Ardour developers are _expecting_
quality feedback
from normal users (not just programmers) at this stage, they should
provide tarballs of the stable CVS snapshots they want to be tested.
But maybe they want to wait for 1.0 before letting endusers test it?
In that case, maybe you tried to use it too early in its development ?
I think they honestly appreciate your effort to participate, there
should be no doubt about that, but maybe Ardour is still changing too
rapidly for you to be able to track it.
this is completely correct.
there is nobody on the ardour-dev mailing list with the time to
provide hand-holding for the compile process. i want everything about
building ardour right now to shout at you "if you can't do this, give
up!".
nobody in their right minds expects endusers to use CVS, let alone
have all the auto-tools installed on their systems with the precise
mix of versions required for this crappy but irreplaceable set of
tools to work right.
when ardour is ready for end users, binaries will be available. until
then, if you can't build it and nobody answers your questions quickly,
take that as a sign that (1) you should wait and (2) people are busy
working on cool new features.
--p
10:53 a.m.
New subject: [linux-audio-dev] why is no-one responding are you all just a bunch of &*^%&^%^& wits???
Thanks Vincent.
Your reply is appreciated.
However I have been involved in the ardour lists for over 2 years. I
have spent much time reading about potential problems and responded to
all those that have had the courtesy to respond. I have also learnt and
spent much time investigating problems that have nothing to do with the
production of music.. simply to try and help developers iron out
problems.. Credit goes to some who have especially Takashi Iwai, Robert
Jonsson, Tommi Ilmonen and a few others.
If you look back into archives a couple of years back alot of
development into inclusion of MIDI sync was added to some softwares
(especially MusE) to accomodate users like myself who depend on this
sync to make software compatible with real studios.
BUT. In the last few weeks I have spent much time into trying to
configure and compile ardour (the potentially greatest audio recording
software available to us) but all my responses after I sent an opinion
to the string "ahem" concerning Steinberg having produced (but not
released) versions of their commercial softwares under our much loved
platform, have been completely ignored.. except this one..
My responses have not been ignorant nor lacking in information. As I
mentioned I have spent much time learning about the Linux platform and
contributing when I can ...
My annoyance is when it was asked of me to provdie more information and
I did .. no response came.. then when I tried to resolve it myself and
no further response came that's when I could only put 2 & 2 together and
see that a response I made to the string "ahem" could have been related
cheers
Allan
On Thu, 2003-02-13 at 00:50, Vincent Touquet wrote:
I'm not a "real coder" either (so one
might argue I shouldn't be on
linux-audio-dev, but I'm just interested in the discussions), so I think
I understand the root cause of your grief.
I think if (if) the Ardour developers are _expecting_ quality feedback
from normal users (not just programmers) at this stage, they should
provide tarballs of the stable CVS snapshots they want to be tested.
But maybe they want to wait for 1.0 before letting endusers test it?
In that case, maybe you tried to use it too early in its development ?
I think they honestly appreciate your effort to participate, there
should be no doubt about that, but maybe Ardour is still changing too
rapidly for you to be able to track it.
I think only the developers of Ardour can clear out this question.
best regards,
Vincent
2:16 p.m.
New subject: [linux-audio-dev] why is no-one responding
On 13 Feb 2003 01:38:13 +1100
Son of Zev <sonofzev(a)labyrinth.net.au> wrote:
However I have been involved in the ardour lists for
over 2 years. I
have spent much time reading about potential problems and responded to
all those that have had the courtesy to respond. I have also learnt and
spent much time investigating problems that have nothing to do with the
production of music.. simply to try and help developers iron out
problems..
Pretty much everyone into linux audio at this point does that.
If you look back into archives a couple of years back
alot of
development into inclusion of MIDI sync was added to some softwares
(especially MusE) to accomodate users like myself who depend on this
sync to make software compatible with real studios.
BUT. In the last few weeks I have spent much time into trying to
configure and compile ardour (the potentially greatest audio recording
software available to us)
Heh, I've been up to the same task. It seems to depend on fairly recent development
tools, and upgrading to them all can mess things up. But slowly working towards it.
but all my responses after I sent an opinion
to the string "ahem" concerning Steinberg having produced (but not
released) versions of their commercial softwares under our much loved
platform, have been completely ignored.. except this one..
My responses have not been ignorant nor lacking in information. As I
mentioned I have spent much time learning about the Linux platform and
contributing when I can ...
Well, position yourself with a working ardour, and then think how much time you would
spend on helping others, when all that time you could be making music :)
My annoyance is when it was asked of me to provdie
more information and
I did .. no response came.. then when I tried to resolve it myself and
no further response came that's when I could only put 2 & 2 together and
see that a response I made to the string "ahem" could have been related
Sometimes more information does ring a bell to someone, sometimes it doesn't.
That's pretty much about it from my point of view. There are many bits in
cyberspace.
janne
(or is there? ;)
cheers
Allan
10:48 a.m.
New subject: [linux-audio-dev] Re: why is no-one responding are you all just a bunch of &*^%&^%^& wits???
I have done everything I have asked of me from the
list, including
Paul's responses ..and also taken my own initiatives following lack of
response and still have recieved no response.
[ ... ]
Aside from being upset, it appears to me that you guys
are all a bunch
of hypocrites.. Asking for further information, and clarification but
never actually responding, while I do everything that I can possibly
thing\k of in aiding you answer my questions.. yet continue to be
ignored... It does not seem to be a coincidence that all response ended
after my response to the string "ahem".
So I've wasted 2+ years of my life and countless dollars continuing down
this path.
Do you know how much of my life and money I've spent "continuing down
this path"? In return for getting up every day for 3+ years (bar some
months in the summer) and working my ass off to produce something
people claimed would take hundreds of man years to create, finding
2-300 emails per day in my mail box about audio software, hardware,
and the rest ... I get this. Its pathetic. Not only that ... I have no
idea how much longer I can keep working on Ardour right now because
working on it has come close to exhausting my financial
resources. What right do you have to complain about "countless
dollars"?
You have been given access to the inside of the entire development
process of a major piece of software: something you would never, ever
have any access to with a commercial company. If you don't like the
fact that nobody has time to answer your questions because we too
**DAMN BUSY** trying to get software to the point where non-coders can
use it with satisfaction and ease, well ... go get products & support
from companies that will happily take your money for both of
them. There are plenty of good ones.
Your insinuations about some agenda based on your feelings about
Steinberg and/or your status as a coder (or not) are offensive.
--p
ps. the word is "fuckwit". you don't need to add punctuation marks,
which only make it more offensive.
12:23 p.m.
New subject: [linux-audio-dev] Re: why is no-one responding are you all just a bunch of &*^%&^%^& wits???
On Wed, 2003-02-12 at 07:44, Paul Davis wrote:
If I may pipe in here..
Being a developer and a musician/engineer, I am aware of the resource
drain invloved.
With all due respect, Paul,
If you are interested, I am sure people would pay for binaries of
ardour.I would. I know other musicans that would.I could get more
musicans to. Personally, I have been waiting for it since I first heard
about it. Why not release something? People are waiting! Most open
source projects release binaries throughout their development phase.
Instead of adding cool new features for years on end, why not release
something that musicans can use. That is what it's all about, right?
Musicians want your software. Linux (community) needs your software.
So I've
wasted 2+ years of my life and countless dollars continuing down
this path.
Do you know how much of my life and money I've spent "continuing down
this path"? In return for getting up every day for 3+ years (bar some
months in the summer) and working my ass off to produce something
people claimed would take hundreds of man years to create, finding
2-300 emails per day in my mail box about audio software, hardware,
and the rest ... I get this. Its pathetic. Not only that ... I have no
idea how much longer I can keep working on Ardour right now because
working on it has come close to exhausting my financial
resources. What right do you have to complain about "countless
dollars"? You have been given access to the inside of the entire
development
process of a major piece of software: something you would never, ever
have any access to with a commercial company. If you don't like the
fact that nobody has time to answer your questions because we too
**DAMN BUSY** trying to get software to the point where non-coders can
use it with satisfaction and ease, well ... go get products & support
from companies that will happily take your money for both of
them. There are plenty of good ones.
--
My cat's a debugger....
Potter, Lorn, "ljp"
core developer / Web Administrator
Project OPIE- the Open Palmtop Integrated Environment
http://opie.handhelds.org | http://www.opie.info (german) |
http://www.opie.us
IRC: irc.freenode.net #opie #opie.de
llornkcor(a)handhelds.org
llornkcor(a)helixcommunity.org
12:53 p.m.
New subject: [linux-audio-dev] Re: why is no-one responding are you all just a bunch of &*^%&^%^& wits???
If you are interested, I am sure people would pay for
binaries of
ardour.I would. I know other musicans that would.I could get more
musicans to. Personally, I have been waiting for it since I first heard
about it. Why not release something?
because i am tired of downloading open source projects that are still
so clearly under development. i am tired of the impression that this
creates. when i get hold of something like freqtweak, which i can
compile or get binaries for, and the thing just works ... that is the
right impression. the wrong impression comes from stupid bugs,
inability to cleanly exit the program (still a core problem with
ardour), and functionality that is obviously necessary and either
missing or incomplete.
People are waiting! Most open
source projects release binaries throughout their
development phase.
Instead of adding cool new features for years on end, why not release
something that musicans can use.
that's precisely what i am trying to do. however, my definition of
"something that musicians can use" might be different from yours.
jazz++ has been around for a long time, and is available as a
binary. why isn't it widely loved and used? because it really isn't
very good. i know that i tried to use it many times, and found it,
well, frankly i found it completely awful.
ardour still has lots of significant bugs and a few design issues that
need addressing before i want the general population judging it. to
release ready-to-run copies now, or even tarballs that would help
people who can't/won't use CVS to try to compile it ... well, all i
think it would do is to increase the number of people who have "been
there, don't want to go back" with respect to the program.
when ardour is in a state where i believe (rightly or wrongly) that a
reasonably typical target user can sit down and just use it without
encountering bugs when recording a typical 12-32 track piece, there
will be binaries.
--p
1:33 p.m.
New subject: [linux-audio-dev] Re: why is no-one responding are you all just a bunch of &*^%&^%^& wits???
On Wed, Feb 12, 2003 at 11:49:08AM -0500, Paul Davis wrote:
(cut)
jazz++ has been around for a long time, and is
available as a
binary. why isn't it widely loved and used? because it really isn't
very good. i know that i tried to use it many times, and found it,
well, frankly i found it completely awful.
That was sadly my impression too.
(cut)
when ardour is in a state where i believe (rightly or
wrongly) that a
reasonably typical target user can sit down and just use it without
encountering bugs when recording a typical 12-32 track piece, there
will be binaries.
I think that is a good policy.
Hm, I see these emails get cross-posted all over alsa-dev and ardour-dev
too :/
The last thing I want to say is that I hope we can make a mends to this
"bad vibe" mostly based on false expectations, yet good intentions.
The last thing is what counts.
regards,
vincent
1:35 p.m.
New subject: [linux-audio-dev] binary package of ardour - can be found in SuSE 8.1 (earlier?)
~> rpm -q ardour-cvs20020816-21
ardour-cvs20020816-21
roger@jeloin:~> man rpm
Reformatting rpm(8), please wait...
Still saving the page, please wait...
roger@jeloin:~> rpm -q ardour-cvs20020816-21 -i
Name : ardour Relocations: (not relocateable)
Version : cvs20020816 Vendor: SuSE Linux AG,
Nuernberg
, Germany
Release : 21 Build Date: ons 11 sep 2002
00.36.09
Install date: fre 27 dec 2002 16.40.07 Build Host: Fatou.suse.de
Group : Productivity/Multimedia/Sound/Editors and Convertors Source
RPM:
ardour-cvs20020816-21.src.rpm
Size : 9069796 License: GPL
Packager : http://www.suse.de/feedback
URL : http://ardour.sourceforge.net/
Summary : Multitrack hardware recording system
Description :
Ardour is a multichannel hard disk recorder (HDR), rapidly evolving into a
Digit
al Audio Workstation (DAW).
It is capable of simultaneously recording 24 or more channels of 32 bit audio
at
48kHz.
Ardour is intended to function as a "professional" HDR system, replacing
dedicat
ed hardware solutions
such as the Mackie HDR, the Tascam 2424 and more traditional tape systems like
t
he Alesis ADAT series.
It supports MIDI Machine Control and so can be controlled from any MMC
controlle
r, such as the Mackie
Digital 8 Bus mixer and many other modern digital mixers.
Authors:
--------
Paul Davis <pbd(a)op.net>
Distribution: SuSE Linux 8.1 (i386)
roger@jeloin:~>
roger@jeloin:~>
roger@jeloin:~> rpm -q ardour-cvs20020816-21 -i
Name : ardour Relocations: (not relocateable)
Version : cvs20020816 Vendor: SuSE Linux AG,
Nuernberg, Germany
Release : 21 Build Date: ons 11 sep 2002
00.36.09
Install date: fre 27 dec 2002 16.40.07 Build Host: Fatou.suse.de
Group : Productivity/Multimedia/Sound/Editors and Convertors Source
RPM: ardour-cvs20020816-21.src.rpm
Size : 9069796 License: GPL
Packager : http://www.suse.de/feedback
URL : http://ardour.sourceforge.net/
Summary : Multitrack hardware recording system
Description :
Ardour is a multichannel hard disk recorder (HDR), rapidly evolving into a
Digital Audio Workstation (DAW).
It is capable of simultaneously recording 24 or more channels of 32 bit audio
at 48kHz.
Ardour is intended to function as a "professional" HDR system, replacing
dedicated hardware solutions
such as the Mackie HDR, the Tascam 2424 and more traditional tape systems like
the Alesis ADAT series.
It supports MIDI Machine Control and so can be controlled from any MMC
controller, such as the Mackie
Digital 8 Bus mixer and many other modern digital mixers.
Authors:
--------
Paul Davis <pbd(a)op.net>
Distribution: SuSE Linux 8.1 (i386)
--
Roger Larsson
Skellefteå
Sweden
1:41 p.m.
New subject: [linux-audio-dev] binary package of ardour - can be found in SuSE 8.1 (earlier?)
they did this against my wishes. i have asked several distributions to
stop doing this, including suse. this being the gpl, there's not much
more i can do.
--p
1:40 p.m.
New subject: [linux-audio-dev] Re: why is no-one responding are you all just a bunch of &*^%&^%^& wits???
when ardour is in a state where i believe (rightly or
wrongly) that a
reasonably typical target user can sit down and just use it without
encountering bugs when recording a typical 12-32 track piece, there
will be binaries.
--p
Do I/we have at least your permission (if we do manage to compile out of
CVS) to redistribute my/our compiled version?
Ico
2:02 p.m.
New subject: [linux-audio-dev] Re: why is no-one responding are you all just a bunch of &*^%&^%^& wits???
Do I/we have at least your permission (if we do manage
to compile out of
CVS) to redistribute my/our compiled version?
i would prefer that nobody be using ardour at this time that doesn't
have the skills to use CVS and the compilation toolset. there are
frequently daily updates, and i'd much rather people use a
low-bandwidth approach to updating (which is essentially what CVS
provides for read-only users). i clearly can't enforce this, but
that's how i see things. just do the right thing :)
--p
2:14 p.m.
New subject: [linux-audio-dev] Re: why is no-one responding are you all just a bunch of &*^%&^%^& wits???
On Wed, Feb 12, 2003 at 12:33:24PM -0500, Ivica Bukvic wrote:
Do I/we have at least your permission (if we do manage
to compile out of
CVS) to redistribute my/our compiled version?
I think this is covered by section 6 in the GPL:
http://www.gnu.org/copyleft/gpl.html
6. Each time you redistribute the Program (or any work based on the
Program), the recipient automatically receives a license from the
original licensor to copy, distribute or modify the Program subject to
these terms and conditions. You may not impose any further restrictions
on the recipients' exercise of the rights granted herein. You are not
responsible for enforcing compliance by third parties to this License.
So you can distribute your compiled version, if you don't hold back the
sources of course (terms and conditions of the GPL).
It just boils down to the fact that people who get hold of a binary will
find an email address in the about box and complain for any bugs.
Personally, I'd respect the wish of the author not to redistribute the
binary, till he is confident about it and at the point at which it is
_possible_ to support the binary (its sufficiently stable).
Yet, we are a free world.
The legals are clear, morality is up to ourselves.
regards,
v
1:27 p.m.
New subject: [linux-audio-dev] Re: why is ...
and the rest ... I get this. Its pathetic. Not only
that ... I have no
idea how much longer I can keep working on Ardour right now because
working on it has come close to exhausting my financial
resources.
Paul, could you tell me how I can support you financially ?
Do you work through Paypal ?
best regards,
Vincent
PS: silent supporters are lurking behind the curtains, silent, but
supportive
4:32 p.m.
New subject: [linux-audio-dev] Re: why is ...
On Wed, Feb 12, 2003 at 06:21:42PM +0100, Vincent Touquet wrote:
I don't know why Paul doesn't publicize this more widely,
but this page has been up for some time now:
http://ardour.sourceforge.net/money.html
Notice the Paypal link.
--
Paul Winkler
http://www.slinkp.com
Look! Up in the sky! It's SALESMAN THIGH!
(random hero from isometric.spaceninja.com)
and the rest
... I get this. Its pathetic. Not only that ... I have no
idea how much longer I can keep working on Ardour right now because
working on it has come close to exhausting my financial
resources.
Paul, could you tell me how I can support you financially ?
Do you work through Paypal ?
14 Feb
14 Feb
1:23 a.m.
New subject: [linux-audio-dev] Re: why is ...
I have the same problem as Dan .. AUD doesn't convert well to USD.. all
the same it looks as if I will contribute something on my next paycheck
On Thu, 2003-02-13 at 07:25, Paul Winkler wrote:
On Wed, Feb 12, 2003 at 06:21:42PM +0100, Vincent
Touquet wrote:
I don't know why Paul doesn't publicize this more widely,
but this page has been up for some time now:
http://ardour.sourceforge.net/money.html
Notice the Paypal link.
--
Paul Winkler
http://www.slinkp.com
Look! Up in the sky! It's SALESMAN THIGH!
(random hero from isometric.spaceninja.com)
and the
rest ... I get this. Its pathetic. Not only that ... I have no
idea how much longer I can keep working on Ardour right now because
working on it has come close to exhausting my financial
resources.
Paul, could you tell me how I can support you financially ?
Do you work through Paypal ? 
5:53 a.m.
New subject: [linux-audio-dev] Re: why is ...
PS: silent supporters are lurking behind the curtains,
silent, but
supportive
Indeed.
--
j.
Jay Vaughan jv(a)access-music.de
>music:technology:synthesizers -
www.access-music.de/
7890
days inactive
7892
days old
linux-audio-dev@lists.linuxaudio.org
17 comments
10 participants
participants (10)
-
Allan Klinbail -
Ivica Bukvic -
janne halttunen -
Jay Vaughan -
ljp -
Paul Davis -
Paul Winkler -
Roger Larsson -
Son of Zev -
Vincent Touquet