10 Nov
2003
10 Nov
'03
7:01 p.m.
http://slashdot.org/articles/03/11/10/197202.shtml?tid=110&tid=121&…
Looks like the site is thoroughly slashdotted...
I haven't actually been able to read anything there yet.
There's some of the usual ignorance posted in the comments.
Moderators, mod the good stuff up :-)
--
Paul Winkler
http://www.slinkp.com
Look! Up in the sky! It's THE MACHINE!
(random hero from isometric.spaceninja.com)
11 Nov
11 Nov
7:48 a.m.
New subject: [linux-audio-dev] Slashdot: linux-based music keyboard workstation released
The site is up again:
http://www.lionstracs.com/index.php?module=Static_Docs&func=view
The product includes everything you could ever possibly dream of (except
perhaps affordability.)
On Mon, 2003-11-10 at 23:59, Paul Winkler wrote:
Looks like the site is thoroughly slashdotted...
I haven't actually been able to read anything there yet.
There's some of the usual ignorance posted in the comments.
Moderators, mod the good stuff up :-)
What good stuff? They were discussing something they couldn't see :-)
10:55 a.m.
New subject: [linux-audio-dev] Slashdot: linux-based music keyboard workstation released
It's just a frikkan computer! I'm sorry, but I'm not a
big fan of these synth workstations. They are just
crippled computers and in this case, withold the
cripple (but double the money). You can just make one
of those.. wouldn't be as pretty and you'd have to
muck w/ RT-linux. Or, you could pick up a laptop..
it's all the rage these days, I hear ;)
I think good synth design, as far as hardware goes, is
knowing what features to leave out as much as
engineering them in. If it's too versatile, it is just
a frusturating, expensive computer. I think a true
show of embedded linux excellence would be something
with a mediocre processor and very small & cheap, but
is intuitive and reasonably flexible. Anyone out there
working on cool embedded designs?
--- Jens M Andreasen <jens.andreasen(a)chello.se> wrote:
The site is up again:
http://www.lionstracs.com/index.php?module=Static_Docs&func=view
The product includes everything you could ever
possibly dream of (except
perhaps affordability.)
__________________________________
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Protect your identity with Yahoo! Mail AddressGuard
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11:41 a.m.
New subject: [linux-audio-dev] Slashdot: linux-based music keyboard workstation released
On Tue, Nov 11, 2003 at 06:54:43AM -0800, Thomas Webb wrote:
It's just a frikkan computer! I'm sorry, but
I'm not a
big fan of these synth workstations. They are just
crippled computers and in this case, withold the
cripple (but double the money). You can just make one
of those.. wouldn't be as pretty and you'd have to
muck w/ RT-linux.
why RT-linux?
Or, you could pick up a laptop..
This is not "just a computer" if you look at the specs.
when you've added 12 stereo 24-bit I/O channels to
your laptop, plus midi, plus a 76-key weighted keyboard,
plus a midi controller with 10 faders and a few dozen
buttons, I think you'll end up with something equally
expensive, without an upgradeable CPU, and vastly more
difficult to set up and tear down at gigs.
Certainly not everyone needs all those features, so
the audience is limited. But it has an appeal to me.
--
Paul Winkler
http://www.slinkp.com
Look! Up in the sky! It's KILL SPINALIZED DOOD!
(random hero from isometric.spaceninja.com)
12 Nov
12 Nov
4:08 a.m.
New subject: [linux-audio-dev] Slashdot: linux-based music keyboard workstation released
On Tuesday 11 November 2003 16.43, Paul Winkler wrote:
On Tue, Nov 11, 2003 at 06:54:43AM -0800, Thomas Webb
wrote:
Why not? If it's a turnkey system, the issues with having users
install such kernel extensions on their own goes away, and cutting
the worst case latencies from around 1 ms to less than 10 µs does
help performance. You can use more CPU at lower latencies without
risking drop-outs.
Granted, DSP code for general purpose CPUs tends to have rather
variable execution speed, but that's just another factor. Eliminating
the scheduling latency part from the equation is still an
improvement.
//David Olofson - Programmer, Composer, Open Source Advocate
.- Audiality -----------------------------------------------.
| Free/Open Source audio engine for games and multimedia. |
| MIDI, modular synthesis, real time effects, scripting,... |
`-----------------------------------> http://audiality.org -'
--- http://olofson.net --- http://www.reologica.se ---
It's just a frikkan computer! I'm sorry,
but I'm not a
big fan of these synth workstations. They are just
crippled computers and in this case, withold the
cripple (but double the money). You can just make one
of those.. wouldn't be as pretty and you'd have to
muck w/ RT-linux.
why RT-linux? 
11 Nov
11 Nov
1:58 p.m.
New subject: [linux-audio-dev] Slashdot: linux-based music keyboard workstation released
Thomas Webb wrote:
It's just a frikkan computer! I'm sorry, but
I'm not a
big fan of these synth workstations. They are just
crippled computers and in this case,
I love people when people makes such allegations.
Where did you get the proof that it is crippled ?
It's a full fledged PC with keyboard/mouse/USB/serial/parallel/ethernet
connectors
with two graphics cards (internal LCD + external monitor + TV-out).
You can run OpenOffice, Mozilla, Quake anything you like.
You can even format the harddrive and run Windows XP if you like
but some of the custom audio/midi gear won't work because no Windows
drivers exist.
:-)
The Mediastation has two operation modes:
keyboard/mouse-less: useful for live playing or when you do not need (or
cannot)
carry with you a keyboard/mouse.
Most of the important functions are accessible via
buttons/sliders/jogwheel so that in most
cases you do not need a keyboard/mouse.
But for example if you want to use a sample editor, a complex HDR app
like ardour
a keyboard/mouse is almost mandatory.
So I would not call this PC crippled, I'd call it more flexible than a
traditional PC because
it's input output devices are optimized for musical tasks.
withold the
cripple (but double the money). You can just make one
of those.. wouldn't be as pretty and you'd have to
muck w/ RT-linux. Or, you could pick up a laptop..
it's all the rage these days, I hear ;)
Of course a made yourself solution can be cheaper (only if your time is
worth $0)
but the target of the keyboard is the professional musicians that want
a turnkey solution or developers that want to create their own
thirdparty apps modules
without building the whole enviroment from scratch.
The possibilities are endless, the Mediastation is much more than a
keyboard.
I think good synth design, as far as hardware goes, is
knowing what features to leave out as much as
engineering them in. If it's too versatile, it is just
a frusturating, expensive computer.
To quote Domenico, the main hardware engineer of the keyboard, according
to him
the Mediastation is the Ferrari or Lamborghini of keyboards :-)
The company is small and can not produce high volume, low margin gear.
It would
be impossible to compete with the bigs.
After all Ferraris are made in Italy just like the Mediastation, let's
see what happens :-)
I think a true
show of embedded linux excellence would be something
with a mediocre processor and very small & cheap, but
is intuitive and reasonably flexible. Anyone out there
working on cool embedded designs?
There are tons of boards (just look at linuxdevices.com), but unfortunately
audio is quite demanding in terms of CPU power so you end up using
a standard ATX PC board again.
If you use a cheap embedded linux board you will have to add powerful
audio hardware, middleware layers, DSP with custom applications etc ...
that will drive up the cost again.
cheers,
Benno
http://www.linuxsampler.org
2:55 p.m.
New subject: [linux-audio-dev] Slashdot: linux-based music keyboard workstation released
Well, just FYI, I got myself a laptop, Doepfer 88 hammer action
controller keyboard (with fully configurable midi signals and response
curves), a bunch of midi-footpedals, and and HDSP to plug into my laptop
for around that same price ($5k) to use as a linux audio workstation. I
also welded together a mounting rack that bolts to the back of my
keyboard stand and holds all the other stuff quite well, really a rather
integrated package and everything comes apart and packs up nicely as
well. However, this keyboard thingy we're talking about also looks
really sweet, heck, after tossing all my stuff togehter I was thinking
how it would be cool if people (maybe even myself) were to make
keyboards that were really just badass linux boxes on the inside to sell
to people. I can certainly say that I'm glad it's been done, it's
(IMHO) a really cool and useful hardware concept, and a very good way
to showcase linux to the pro-audio world.
784 - Michael C. Piantedosi - drclaw(a)dogsolitude.org
12 Nov
12 Nov
12:13 a.m.
New subject: [linux-audio-dev] Slashdot: linux-based music keyboard workstation released
I love people when people makes such allegations.
Where did you get the proof that it is crippled ?
It's a full fledged PC with
[...]
I love when people quote me out of context. The next
thing i said was "withold the cripple, but double the
cost" It is the full-flegedness that I dislike.
but the target of the keyboard is the professional
musicians that want
a turnkey solution or developers that want to create
The main problem I have with this is the idea that the
best thing for musicians is a turnkey solution. That's
the advantage of a computer. This workstation has all
of the advantages of a computer, but also all of the
disadvantages. The benefit of hardware is its
simplicity. Extra functionality here does nothing but
obfuscate. The funnest and most intuitive synths to
work with are the ones that are knob-laden and menu
sparse.
To quote Domenico, the main hardware engineer of the
keyboard, according
to him
the Mediastation is the Ferrari or Lamborghini of
keyboards :-)
The company is small and can not produce high
volume, low margin gear.
I respect Italian design - from lamborghini to ducati
to farfisa to gucci (use the google!) However, I don't
understand the appeal of expensive inneficiency. I
think the pinnacle of car design is the optimal
combination of cheapness and niceness (like Toyota),
not the maximization of the latter (Lamborghini, Rolls
Royce). This applies to any piece of hardware.
There are tons of boards (just look at
linuxdevices.com), but unfortunately
audio is quite demanding in terms of CPU power so
you end up using
a standard ATX PC board again.
huh? The news here is that someone is actually using a
PC board to make hardware. The norm is cheaper,
smaller processors that are more specialized. That's
why I can't run konqueror on my korg.
If you use a cheap embedded linux board you will
have to add powerful
audio hardware, middleware layers, DSP with custom
applications etc ...
that will drive up the cost again.
DSPs are cheap. Call TI and you can get some free
samples. you don't need to "add" powerful audio
hardware. This scenario you are referring to of the
super-expensive synth only refers to if you insist on
using only off-the-shelf parts. Obviously, this isn't
wnat the big synth manufacturers have to contend with.
For them, it's circut design, DSPs, etc. high initial
investment, but in the long run, much cheaper parts.
Okay, so this is a nice expensive computer. Great. I
just don't see this in any way as big inroads into
embedded Linux and audio.
-ciao, Thomas J. Webb
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2:17 a.m.
New subject: [linux-audio-dev] Slashdot: linux-based music keyboard workstation released
Thomas!
This link might approximate what you are looking for:
http://linuxdevices.com/articles/AT7554348551.html
It is a white paper about Linux running natively on a (Texas)
DSP. There are several links from there to further information ...
Seems like your next KORG _could_ be running a web browser in between
gigs :-)
mvh // Jens M Andreasen
On Wed, 2003-11-12 at 05:12, Thomas Webb wrote:
huh? The news here is that someone is actually using
a
PC board to make hardware. The norm is cheaper,
smaller processors that are more specialized. That's
why I can't run konqueror on my korg.
> If you use a cheap embedded linux board you will
> have to add powerful
> audio hardware, middleware layers, DSP with custom
> applications etc ...
> that will drive up the cost again.
12:35 p.m.
New subject: [linux-audio-dev] Slashdot: linux-based music keyboard workstation released
Thomas Webb wrote:
Sorry it was not my intention.
I think there are many differend kind of targets of musicians.
One cannot generalize ("no one will need the Mediastation's functionality"
or "the Mediastation is suitable for everyone").
The target is certainly the power user that wants a flexible and all-in-one
portable keyboard/music studio. Perhaps it will remain a nice market,
the company
is small so it could be completely ok.
Before they began the design of the Mediastation they asked many
pro musicians what features they would like to have in such keyboard.
(some of the company play keyboards since a few decades and over the years
they bought and played most of the commonly available keyboards so I think
they know what they are doing.
Perhaps the concept will fail, who knows. Only time will tell.
After all I'm just a poor code slave that likes to code audio stuff.
If collaborating on commercial linux audio does not have future I can
always
work on my usual ISP/networking stuff. :-)))
Yes I partly agree that the Ferrari is not an ideal vehicle for all
purposes, so I'd compare
the Mediastation more to a Mercedes, which occasionally can be driven
on small, bumpy mountain roads :-)
Ever asked why these companies are recycling stuff that is almost decades
old and sell it as fresh water ?
Often new keyboard models are using almost the same hardware as older
ones but with a new display, different button panels and added sounds.
This means often same old DSPs, same polyphony problems, same limited
RAM addressability etc.
Year 2003 and Korg still releases a brand new keyboard,
the Pa-X Pro that fully expanded costs $4000-$4500 and has a polyphony of
only 64 voices. Why this ? Perhaps because there is some truth in my
statements ?
It is not that easy as you describe it.
If you build a cost effective and well functioning keyboard / musical device
that works and scales well and show it to me I'll believe your thesis.
(keep in mind that companies cannot design new devices every month
because they have to recoup the R&D costs so they try to stretch the
product lifetime as far as possible).
At least in a few months you will be able to see if I'm wrong or right.
I love people
when people makes such allegations.
Where did you get the proof that it is crippled ?
It's a full fledged PC with
[...]
I love when people quote me out of context. The next
thing i said was "withold the cripple, but double the
cost" It is the full-flegedness that I dislike.
but the target
of the keyboard is the professional
musicians that want
a turnkey solution or developers that want to create
The main problem I have with this is the idea that the
best thing for musicians is a turnkey solution. That's
the advantage of a computer. This workstation has all
of the advantages of a computer, but also all of the
disadvantages. The benefit of hardware is its
simplicity. Extra functionality here does nothing but
obfuscate. The funnest and most intuitive synths to
work with are the ones that are knob-laden and menu
sparse.
To quote
Domenico, the main hardware engineer of the
keyboard, according
to him
the Mediastation is the Ferrari or Lamborghini of
keyboards :-)
The company is small and can not produce high
volume, low margin gear.
I respect Italian design - from lamborghini to ducati
to farfisa to gucci (use the google!) However, I don't
understand the appeal of expensive inneficiency. I
think the pinnacle of car design is the optimal
combination of cheapness and niceness (like Toyota),
not the maximization of the latter (Lamborghini, Rolls
Royce). This applies to any piece of hardware.
There are tons
of boards (just look at
linuxdevices.com), but unfortunately
audio is quite demanding in terms of CPU power so
you end up using
a standard ATX PC board again.
huh? The news here is that someone is actually using a
PC board to make hardware. The norm is cheaper,
smaller processors that are more specialized. That's
why I can't run konqueror on my korg.
If you use a
cheap embedded linux board you will
have to add powerful
audio hardware, middleware layers, DSP with custom
applications etc ...
that will drive up the cost again.
DSPs are cheap. Call TI and you can get some free
samples. you don't need to "add" powerful audio
hardware. This scenario you are referring to of the
super-expensive synth only refers to if you insist on
using only off-the-shelf parts. Obviously, this isn't
wnat the big synth manufacturers have to contend with.
For them, it's circut design, DSPs, etc. high initial
investment, but in the long run, much cheaper parts.
Okay, so this is a nice expensive computer. Great. I
just don't see this in any way as big inroads into
embedded Linux and audio.
What does "big inroads" mean ? Who stated that ?
The Mediastation will just be a nice and flexible musical device that
runs on an open operating system and on open applications, which
will give it a potentially very long product lifetime compared to
proprietary,
embedded systems and it could even be that the TCO (total cost of ownership)
will be lower than on other keyboards.
We will see, currently it does not make too much sense to discuss about this
because we must first see if it will gain acceptance or if it will fade into
obscurity like other cool hardware devices built in the past.
cheers,
Benno
4:36 a.m.
New subject: [linux-audio-dev] Slashdot: linux-based music keyboard workstation released
On Tuesday 11 November 2003 19.55, Benno Senoner wrote:
[...]
Meanwhile, some people invest lots of time *and* money in various
projects, just because thep enjoy building things... ;-)
Speaking of cars; though I definitely wouldn't mind driving an F40 or
F50 (insanely beautiful cars, IMHO,), I'm more the kind of guy who
would build a Lotus Super 7 replica from scratch. 600 kg with 100-400
hp ranges from brutal to insane performance, and I could actually
afford building one - and I would have fun doing it as well. :-)
Maybe this is reflected in most of my choices in all fields?
//David Olofson - Programmer, Composer, Open Source Advocate
.- Audiality -----------------------------------------------.
| Free/Open Source audio engine for games and multimedia. |
| MIDI, modular synthesis, real time effects, scripting,... |
`-----------------------------------> http://audiality.org -'
--- http://olofson.net --- http://www.reologica.se ---
So I would not call this PC crippled, I'd call it
more flexible
than a traditional PC because
it's input output devices are optimized for musical tasks.
Speaking of which; I'd be really rather interested in a UI like that,
but as an extra interface for a normal computer based studio. Sort of
like a DAW terminal with a display and a custom control panel that I
can put right above my master keyboard, so I don't have to turn
around to, or reach for the computer all the time.
BTW, I started hacking an SDL based full screen sequencer some time
ago. Though I could make it smooth with tracker style keyboard
control, I guess the missing part is really this little handy
hardware terminal...
withold the
cripple (but double the money). You can just make one
of those.. wouldn't be as pretty and you'd have to
muck w/ RT-linux. Or, you could pick up a laptop..
it's all the rage these days, I hear ;)
Of course a made yourself solution can be cheaper (only if your
time is worth $0) but the target of the keyboard is the professional
musicians that
want a turnkey solution or developers that want to create their own
thirdparty apps modules
without building the whole enviroment from scratch.
The possibilities are endless, the Mediastation is much more than a
keyboard.
It does seem like an interesting platform indeed, though I'm probably
not in the target audience. If I want something special or custom, I
want to design it and build it myself, for fun and total control -
and that's just as well, as I can't really afford paying someone else
to do the job.
I think good
synth design, as far as hardware goes, is
knowing what features to leave out as much as
engineering them in. If it's too versatile, it is just
a frusturating, expensive computer.
To quote Domenico, the main hardware engineer of the keyboard,
according to him
the Mediastation is the Ferrari or Lamborghini of keyboards :-)
The company is small and can not produce high volume, low margin
gear. It would
be impossible to compete with the bigs.
After all Ferraris are made in Italy just like the Mediastation,
let's see what happens :-)
1:03 p.m.
New subject: [linux-audio-dev] Slashdot: linux-based music keyboard workstation released
Speaking of which; I'd be really rather interested
in a UI like that,
but as an extra interface for a normal computer based studio. Sort of
like a DAW terminal with a display and a custom control panel that I
can put right above my master keyboard, so I don't have to turn
around to, or reach for the computer all the time.
Well, if you look back at my post a few back about my setup I tossed
together, I haven't gotten around to this yet, but Doepfer also makes
big slider boards and knob boxes and stuff that send midi signals, check
these links out:
http://www.doepfer.de/db.htm
http://www.doepfer.de/pf.htm
Once I run out of possiblities with the builtin knobs / sliders,
footpedal combimations, etc, I was planning on getting some of these to
mount on the frame that my laptop's currently bolted onto.
784 - Michael C. Piantedosi - drclaw(a)dogsolitude.org
2:53 p.m.
New subject: [linux-audio-dev] Slashdot:_linux-based_music_=?iso-8859-1?q?keyboard workstation?= released
Well, if you look back at my post a few back about
my setup I tossed
together, I haven't gotten around to this yet, but
Doepfer also makes
big slider boards and knob boxes and stuff that send
midi signals, check
these links out:
http://www.doepfer.de/db.htm
http://www.doepfer.de/pf.htm
Once I run out of possiblities with the builtin
knobs / sliders,
footpedal combimations, etc, I was planning on
getting some of these to
mount on the frame that my laptop's currently bolted
onto.
What opens up even more possibilities is this:
http://www.doepfer.de/home_e.htm
It's just the pocket fader without the housing or
dials. You have to supply these things yourself.
__________________________________
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Protect your identity with Yahoo! Mail AddressGuard
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3:28 p.m.
New subject: [linux-audio-dev] Slashdot:_linux-based_music_=?iso-8859-1?q?keyboard workstation?= released
On Wed, Nov 12, 2003 at 10:52:22AM -0800, Thomas Webb wrote:
What opens up even more possibilities is this:
http://www.doepfer.de/home_e.htm
stupid frames... I think this is a direct link:
http://www.doepfer.de/pe.htm
It's just the pocket fader without the housing or
dials. You have to supply these things yourself.
It's a very nice looking device. I can think of a million
uses for this! Thanks for posting it.
--
Paul Winkler
http://www.slinkp.com
Look! Up in the sky! It's THE GOAT!
(random hero from isometric.spaceninja.com)
4:12 p.m.
New subject: [linux-audio-dev]Slashdot:_linux-based_music_keyboardworkstation released
Thomas Webb wrote:
You might also look at:
http://www.uCApps.de
Regards,
Klaus
--
Dr. Klaus Kosten
Am Ginsterberg 13
D-52477 Alsdorf
Well, if you look back at my post a few back
about
my setup I tossed
together, I haven't gotten around to this yet, but
Doepfer also makes
big slider boards and knob boxes and stuff that send
midi signals, check
these links out:
http://www.doepfer.de/db.htm
http://www.doepfer.de/pf.htm
Once I run out of possiblities with the builtin
knobs / sliders,
footpedal combimations, etc, I was planning on
getting some of these to
mount on the frame that my laptop's currently bolted
onto.
What opens up even more possibilities is this:
http://www.doepfer.de/home_e.htm
It's just the pocket fader without the housing or
dials. You have to supply these things yourself.
6:48 p.m.
New subject: [linux-audio-dev]Slashdot:_linux-based_music_keyboardworkstation released
On Wednesday 12 November 2003 22.32, Klaus Kosten wrote:
[...]
You might also look at:
http://www.uCApps.de
Now we're talking!
Lots of interesting info around there - and of course, I got stuck
looking at the SID stuff and listening to demos. :-)
//David Olofson - Programmer, Composer, Open Source Advocate
.- Audiality -----------------------------------------------.
| Free/Open Source audio engine for games and multimedia. |
| MIDI, modular synthesis, real time effects, scripting,... |
`-----------------------------------> http://audiality.org -'
--- http://olofson.net --- http://www.reologica.se ---
7:11 p.m.
New subject: [linux-audio-dev]Slashdot:_linux-based_music_keyboardworkstation released
You might also
look at:
http://www.uCApps.de
Now we're talking!
10:21 p.m.
New subject: [linux-audio-dev]Slashdot:_linux-based_music_keyboardworkstation released
On Thursday 13 November 2003 00.11, Paul Davis wrote:
no kidding. this is the mother of all DIY MIDI sites ... did you
see the relatively polished digi-alike control surface there? very
nice stuff.
Yeah. I also noticed I'm probably not first to think about a modular
controller system. Don't know if anyone's managed to build one yet
(only rendered concept images), but it should be quite doable, if not
exactly low cost or lightweight... I just don't know how useful it
would really be. Worth the effort?
"No, I want the play/stop button on the other side of
the jog wheel today..."
*klick*
*snap*
"There. Much better!"
My first ideas in this direction were related to arcade controls
(digital heavy duty joysticks, buttons, spinners, trackballs and
stuff), and that's probably where I'll try it first. (The prototype I
used for testing Kobo Deluxe is flaky, so it's time I built something
serious anyway.)
Most people just place lots of controls on a big panel, or have
multiple panels with different layouts, but they never seem to be
totally happy, and thus rebuild, over and over. OTOH, building the
things is the most interesting part for many, so maybe that's just as
well. :-)
//David Olofson - Programmer, Composer, Open Source Advocate
.- Audiality -----------------------------------------------.
| Free/Open Source audio engine for games and multimedia. |
| MIDI, modular synthesis, real time effects, scripting,... |
`-----------------------------------> http://audiality.org -'
--- http://olofson.net --- http://www.reologica.se ---
You might also look at:
http://www.uCApps.de
Now we're talking! 
11:34 p.m.
New subject: [linux-audio-dev] Programming resource question
Hi everyone, I've been working for the last couple of years on a live improv
sequencing system in Csound, and I would like to start porting parts of it
to C so as to allow it to run faster as opcodes within csound and as stand
alones. I need to learn how to do multi-threading with priority scheduling,
specifically I want to make sure that all input and graphics are buffered
and just have to wait while output timing is maintained. I've been reading
regular C books, and I don't know quite where the best place to learn this
stuff would be. Any advice for books, web resources, or code to look at
would be much appreciated.
Thanks,
Iain
13 Nov
13 Nov
12:05 a.m.
New subject: [linux-audio-dev] Programming resource question
Hi everyone, I've been working for the last couple
of years on a live improv
sequencing system in Csound, and I would like to start porting parts of it
to C so as to allow it to run faster as opcodes within csound and as stand
alones. I need to learn how to do multi-threading with priority scheduling,
specifically I want to make sure that all input and graphics are buffered
and just have to wait while output timing is maintained. I've been reading
regular C books, and I don't know quite where the best place to learn this
stuff would be. Any advice for books, web resources, or code to look at
would be much appreciated.
jackit.sf.net is your friend. forget about learning threading,
scheduling issues, etc. forget about understanding configuring audio
interfaces. imagine writing a simple program that just does the DSP
part of things and no more (it can do graphics if you want it to).
--p
12:55 a.m.
New subject: [linux-audio-dev] Programming resource question
Sorry I guess I didn't make myself very clear there. I don't mean that I
wan't to make an audio ap and would do the audio stuff myself, I'd
definitely use Jack for that. I'm making a step sequencer to drive midi gear
and csound synths. So the timing I'm concerned about is the engine of the
sequencer outputing midi notes and csound events via pipes.
I was also planning on keeping it in just C so I could port it to
microcontrollers like the Microchip 18F series.
Thanks
Iain
jackit.sf.net is your friend. forget about learning
threading,
scheduling issues, etc. forget about understanding configuring audio
interfaces. imagine writing a simple program that just does the DSP
part of things and no more (it can do graphics if you want it to).
--p
1:12 a.m.
New subject: [linux-audio-dev] Programming resource question
Sorry I guess I didn't make myself very clear
there. I don't mean that I
wan't to make an audio ap and would do the audio stuff myself, I'd
definitely use Jack for that. I'm making a step sequencer to drive midi gear
and csound synths. So the timing I'm concerned about is the engine of the
sequencer outputing midi notes and csound events via pipes.
ah, yes, a very different question indeed. well, there are several
apps to look at:
TSE: a library for doing MIDI sequencing
muse+rosegarden: full fledged MIDI+audio sequencers
softwerk: a MIDI "analog" pattern sequencer
and probably quite a few more from the "MIDI" section of the linux
sound+midi pages (linuxsound.org).
in general, you can't get excellent timing under linux without kernel
patches, but you can do well enough that almost no human will notice.
as far as using pipes go, they are pretty damn quick under linux.
about porting it to a ucontroller - unless the ucontroller runs within
a POSIX-like environment, i suspect that writing portable code for
this will be rather hard.
--p
2:01 a.m.
New subject: [linux-audio-dev] Programming resource question
Thanks Paul, Softwerk was already on my list of apps to look at it too. = )
Are you still working on that at all or is it taking a back seat to Ardour
and Jack right not? Also, did you make playback timing the top priority in
Softwerk? For example, while limited in scope, Propellorheads did a great
job with Rebirth of making sure that it acted like a 303 or 909; no matter
how much you hit the buttons or twisted the knobs, playback is always even.
The thing I'm working on is meant for live gigs, so for example I want to
make sure that if I execute a copy command, playback is fine even if the
copy command takes a little longer to execute and forces the next input to
wait a bit. I don't know enough C to know where to look in an app for that
kind of business. Any other suggestions anyone? Any good books introducing
this kind of thing? I'd like to find a bridge between basic C books and code
and reading code of fully featured complex apps.
about porting it to a ucontroller - unless the
ucontroller runs within
a POSIX-like environment, i suspect that writing portable code for
this will be rather hard.
Well I'm actually making more of toolkit for do it yourself modular live
sequencing systems. So the idea is that one might use parts of it on PC,
port parts to Pic chips, or run parts coded in something like Csound or PD.
At the moment the whole thing is a gigantic Csound ensemble heavily tailored
around my own personal gear set up, so I haven't had to worry about any low
level stuff yet. But I would like to start modularizing it and making it
available to other people and platforms. It works well in Csound, but file
i/o is kluderific so I'd like to get that kind of stuff going in C as well.
Thanks,
Iain
2:25 a.m.
New subject: [linux-audio-dev] Programming resource question
Thanks Paul, Softwerk was already on my list of apps to
look at it too. = )
Are you still working on that at all or is it taking a back seat to Ardour
and Jack right not?
its on the backburner, but the only things to do with it all concern
the GUI. oh, except adding "song support". the thing is totally
functional.
Also, did you make playback timing the top priority in
Softwerk? For example, while limited in scope,
Propellorheads did a great
job with Rebirth of making sure that it acted like a 303 or 909; no matter
how much you hit the buttons or twisted the knobs, playback is always even.
softwerk is totally designed like this. you get it for free by using
an MVC programming design. (almost) nothing that happens in the GUI
can stall the engine. softwerk itself likes to use the RTC for timing
purposes. running the engine thread SCHED_FIFO is also a key
ingredient of this.
The thing I'm working on is meant for live gigs, so
for example I want to
make sure that if I execute a copy command, playback is fine even if the
copy command takes a little longer to execute and forces the next input to
wait a bit. I don't know enough C to know where to look in an app for that
kind of business. Any other suggestions anyone? Any good books introducing
this kind of thing? I'd like to find a bridge between basic C books and code
and reading code of fully featured complex apps.
i haven't read any books on MVC per se, although they exist. "design
patterns" (gamma et al.) is always a good place to start (though it
assumes an OOP orientation, to some extent). the simplest way to do
MVC is to partition your app into an engine and a GUI with a defined
communication protocol between them (function calls, TCP/IP,
whatever). don't allow the engine code to include any GUI headers or
reference any GUI objects. never. under any circumstances. jMax goes
all the way, and forces the GUI to control the engine via a udp socket
from a separate process IIRC. ardour+softwerk have clean separation,
but put both the UI and engine in the same process and uses function
calls and anonymous callbacks to facilitate communication.
--p
5:36 a.m.
New subject: [linux-audio-dev] Programming resource question
softwerk is totally designed like this. you get it for
free by using
an MVC programming design. (almost) nothing that happens in the GUI
can stall the engine. softwerk itself likes to use the RTC for timing
purposes. running the engine thread SCHED_FIFO is also a key
ingredient of this.
Cool, I think this will be a good course of study for me. However, for me
and other newbies, what does MVC stand for, and any hints on learning more
about it?
i haven't read any books on MVC per se, although
they exist. "design
patterns" (gamma et al.) is always a good place to start (though it
assumes an OOP orientation, to some extent). the simplest way to do
MVC is to partition your app into an engine and a GUI with a defined
communication protocol between them (function calls, TCP/IP,
whatever). don't allow the engine code to include any GUI headers or
reference any GUI objects. never. under any circumstances. jMax goes
Ok, that's good news. That's how my project has been designed anyway. The
engine is seperate from the user interface, which is in turn seperate from
the GUI. Thanks for your help.
Iain
11:06 a.m.
New subject: [linux-audio-dev] Programming resource question
On Thu, Nov 13, 2003 at 01:37:27AM -0800, Iain Duncan wrote:
Model-View-Controller.
Put that into google and you'll turn up plenty of stuff.
It seems to me that many applications blur the line between View and Controller.
--
Paul Winkler
http://www.slinkp.com
Look! Up in the sky! It's NEGA MATRIX AIRPLANE FRED!
(random hero from isometric.spaceninja.com)
softwerk is
totally designed like this. you get it for free by using
an MVC programming design. (almost) nothing that happens in the GUI
can stall the engine. softwerk itself likes to use the RTC for timing
purposes. running the engine thread SCHED_FIFO is also a key
ingredient of this.
Cool, I think this will be a good course of study for me. However, for me
and other newbies, what does MVC stand for, and any hints on learning more
about it? 
12 Nov
12 Nov
5:14 p.m.
New subject: [linux-audio-dev] Slashdot:_linux-based_music_keyboard workstation released
On Wednesday 12 November 2003 13:52, Thomas Webb wrote:
What opens up even more possibilities is this:
http://www.doepfer.de/home_e.htm
For something a bit more integrated, you may also want to look at:
http://www.cmlabs.net/
Cheers!
|-------------------------------------------------------------------------|
| Frederick F. Gleason, Jr. | Director of Broadcast Software Development |
| | Salem Radio Labs |
|-------------------------------------------------------------------------|
| First principle of leadership: *Everything* is your fault! |
| -- Hopper |
| "A Bug's Life" |
|-------------------------------------------------------------------------|
10:48 p.m.
New subject: [linux-audio-dev] Slashdot:_linux-based_music_keyboard workstation released
The previously mentioned stuff at Ucapps is pretty rad. I'd even say it's
better than any commercial options. After all, find me a commercial midi box
with a bootstrap loader that lets me change the firmware over the serial
port . . . A friend of mine, DJ Lace, ( www.vutag.com has his open source
projects ) who is extremely experienced with pretty much all the controllers
out there built the midi box with the new system on Ucapps and thinks it's
best option period.
Iain
----- Original Message -----
From: "Fred Gleason" <fredg(a)salemradiolabs.com
To: <pinkboi(a)thehappybuttons.com>om>; "The Linux Audio Developers'
Mailing
List" <linux-audio-dev(a)music.columbia.edu
Sent: Wednesday, November 12, 2003 1:13 PM
Subject: Re: [linux-audio-dev] Slashdot:_linux-based_music_keyboard
workstation released
|-------------------------------------------------------------------------|
|-------------------------------------------------------------------------|
On Wednesday 12 November 2003 13:52, Thomas Webb
wrote:
|-------------------------------------------------------------------------|
What opens up even more possibilities is this:
http://www.doepfer.de/home_e.htm
For something a bit more integrated, you may also want to look at:
http://www.cmlabs.net/
Cheers!
| Frederick F. Gleason, Jr. | Director of Broadcast
Software Development
|
| | Salem Radio
Labs
|
| First principle of leadership: *Everything*
is your fault!
|
| --
Hopper
|
|
"A Bug's Life"
|
13 Nov
13 Nov
12:11 p.m.
New subject: [linux-audio-dev] Slashdot:_linux-based_music_keyboard workstation released
Iain Duncan writes:
The previously mentioned stuff at Ucapps is pretty
rad. I'd even say it's
better than any commercial options. After all, find me a commercial midi box
with a bootstrap loader that lets me change the firmware over the serial
the stuff there is really great. i build the midibox 16plus two years
ago (when it was state of the art) and organized a workshop at
university for building this thing... it worked even for people being
not experienced with hardware stuff, and the feeling when the "MIDIBOX
boot message" on the LCD display appears for the first time is
incredible...
martin
14 Nov
14 Nov
9:04 p.m.
New subject: [linux-audio-dev] Slashdot: linux-based music keyboard workstation released
On Wednesday 12 November 2003 18.10, drclaw(a)dogsolitude.org wrote:
That's some really nice stuff they've got there! :-)
Not quite what I'm looking for right now, though. (Although I could
definitely find uses for these gadgets as well. :-)
Right now, I'm thinking in terms of a rather minimal sequencer control
panel, preferably integrated with a relatively large color LCD. I
want to be able to record and arrange a whole MIDI song using only
this UI and the master keyboard. Shuttle control, navigation,
selection and basic edit functions must be easilly accessible.
//David Olofson - Programmer, Composer, Open Source Advocate
.- Audiality -----------------------------------------------.
| Free/Open Source audio engine for games and multimedia. |
| MIDI, modular synthesis, real time effects, scripting,... |
`-----------------------------------> http://audiality.org -'
--- http://olofson.net --- http://www.reologica.se ---
Speaking of
which; I'd be really rather interested in a UI like
that, but as an extra interface for a normal computer based
studio. Sort of like a DAW terminal with a display and a custom
control panel that I can put right above my master keyboard, so I
don't have to turn around to, or reach for the computer all the
time.
Well, if you look back at my post a few back about my setup I
tossed together, I haven't gotten around to this yet, but Doepfer
also makes big slider boards and knob boxes and stuff that send
midi signals, check these links out:
http://www.doepfer.de/db.htm
http://www.doepfer.de/pf.htm
11 Nov
11 Nov
11:12 a.m.
New subject: [linux-audio-dev] Slashdot: linux-based music keyboard workstation released
On Tue, Nov 11, 2003 at 11:47:35AM +0100, Jens M Andreasen wrote:
The site is up again:
http://www.lionstracs.com/index.php?module=Static_Docs&func=view
The product includes everything you could ever possibly dream of (except
perhaps affordability.)
On another forum I found a tentative price of $5k ... ouch.
What good stuff? They were discussing something they
couldn't see :-)
Oh, you know, combatting the usual baloney about linux: "there are no drivers"
and "there are no good apps".
--
Paul Winkler
http://www.slinkp.com
Look! Up in the sky! It's BURNING BACONMAN!
(random hero from isometric.spaceninja.com)
10:47 a.m.
Hi,
a few clarifications about the Mediastation X-76
I think it was inappropriate at this time to post this on slashdot but
you cannot hide a website from the
technology hungy geeks.
So far so good:
I'm one of the guys involved in that project. (as external software
developer)
The Mediastation was designed by Lionstracs http://www.lionstracs.com
a small italian company specialized in audio/midi electronics.
Some of their former projects included the Megafloppy, a small hardware
device with
a floppy connector and a builin HD where you could store hundred of
floppy images on the harddisk
that were seen by the keyboard's floppy controller like ordinary
floppies (thus the device was compatible
with almost any keyboard).
Another device built are the Solton 128voice MIDI expanders (
http://www.solton.de/ )
build on the DREAM MIDI chips from Atmel.
After designing a keyboard (a few years ago) that did not go that well
because it was an embedded system
built from scratch and every low level OS component had to be written
from the ground up, they decided that
Linux was the only way to escape the mess and of the proprietary
embedded solutions.
AFAIK the planning of the Mediastation hardware components began about
2-3 years ago,
meanwhile the Linux Audio APIs and applications were slowly maturing
which seemed to prove that
Linux was the right bet.
here are some preliminary specs:
http://www.lionstracs.com/index.php?module=Static_Docs&func=view&f=…
Currently there are a few people involved in software development,
mostly LADers.
Part of the software will be made in/house and part will be GPLed apps
that are tweaked for perfect
integration within the Mediastation enviroment.
Most of the inhouse apps will be GPLed and of course all tweaks of
GPL-ed apps will be released.
read this too if you are interested:
http://www.lionstracs.com/index.php?name=PNphpBB2&file=viewtopic&t=4
The company is small and their financial means are not that big but they
have a few quite bright
minds when it comes to hardware design.
Should the Mediastation sell well then they will certainly involve more
LADers and other developers
to improve the software, all within the open source spirit without
nasty NDAs and other crap.
I think the Mediastation could become a nice platform for thirdparty
(commercial and not commerical)
developers to build their own modules and applications to make the
Mediastation a very flexible
portable music studio (much more than a mere keyboard).
If you have further questions or would like to contribute to the project
let me know.
About the price, AFAIK it will be $4k - $5k, kinda expensive if you ask
me but OTOH other
companies flagships (with expansions etc) are in the same range.
For example the Korg PA-X Pro:
http://www.korgpa.com/products/pa1xproinfo.asp
with MP3 player expansion, optional harddisk is in the same price range
while
offering limited flexibility and future expansion possibilties because
of the proprietary, fixed
embedded design.
The Mediastation uses a PC ATX board which can be swapped out with newer
mainboards, CPUs,
RAM can be expanded to suit your needs (with an Opteron 16GB of RAM are
not a problem, do that
on other keyboards), the audio is provided by standard soundcards while
the MIDI is provided by a custom
engineered board. The button panel communicates via a serial interface
with the PC, the LCD uses a
framebuffer based chip, builtin analog mixer can route 24 stereo in/outs.
It's quite modular and it will be easy to creade higher higher-end
models with better audio I/O specs
(multi I/O 24/96 cards), faster CPUs (for softsynthesis, sampling etc).
I think one of the big pluses of the Mediastation will be that users can
update the software and add new applications
when they get written by simply pressing an UPDATE button without
needing to be a computer geek.
The strenght will be a combination of good hardware, good software and
it's user/developer community.
I think no other keyboard maker has shown that kind of openess because
everyone thinks the competitors will
copy the concept.
Ok with open source the risk of copycats is even bigger but I think the
value of an opensource system is provided
by beating your competitiors with cutting edge software that is backed
by the community.
The cloners that will make a proprietary system out of it will always be
a bit behind. (I could be wrong too ..)
I don't know when the Mediastation will be available but I guess not
before Q1 2004.
I cannot say it for sure but it's probable that the company will show a
prerelease at this year Winternamm NAMM.
I'll keep you updated when there are some news about this keyboard (like
audio demos, GUI screenshots etc).
Thoughts ? :-)
cheers,
Benno
http://www.linuxsampler.org
Paul Winkler wrote:
http://slashdot.org/articles/03/11/10/197202.shtml?tid=110&tid=121&…
Looks like the site is thoroughly slashdotted...
I haven't actually been able to read anything there yet.
There's some of the usual ignorance posted in the comments.
Moderators, mod the good stuff up :-)
12 Nov
12 Nov
12:06 a.m.
New subject: RE : [linux-audio-dev] Slashdot: linux-based music keyboard workstationreleased
It's seem to be quite expensive opensynth neko seems to offers quite the
same feature for half the price.
7670
days inactive
7674
days old
linux-audio-dev@lists.linuxaudio.org
32 comments
12 participants
participants (12)
-
Benno Senoner -
David Olofson -
drclaw＠dogsolitude.org -
Fred Gleason -
g-meurisse -
Iain Duncan -
Jens M Andreasen -
Klaus Kosten -
martin rumori -
Paul Davis -
Paul Winkler -
Thomas Webb