21 Oct
2002
21 Oct
'02
9:30 p.m.
I don't know if the 3 points I've made have
already been done, I'm new
to LAD, but they are important. Especially 3 as it gives a "migration
path" to existing windoze users. I know, I know, DirectX plugins are
written against Microsoft libraries, but how come mplayer on Linux can
use windows binaries (codecs) in it's system? Could the same not be
done
for audio? Surely it's the same principle? (Media data input, process,
media data ouput).
Yes this should be possibile since both DirectX and VST are documented
APIs.
Form a latency point of view, I am not sure how this works out, but I
believe the process() calls do not involve windows specific stuff so the
plugs should perform quite well on a low latency kernel.
Of course almost any DX, VST plugin do have a GUI.
The ideal would be letting wine to display the GUI part while executing
the process() stuff directly.
I am not a wine expert so I cannot say how difficult this can be, but
given that wine is able to execute beasts like Word and Excel I guess
it has not problems with plugin GUIs.
Indeed the ability to run DX and VST on Linux would be a good selling
point for pro audio on linux but there is still lot to do in the fields
of basic audio platform infrastructure and integration of the different
components.
cheers,
Benno
21 Oct
21 Oct
11:24 p.m.
I don't
know if the 3 points I've made have already been done, I'm new
to LAD, but they are important. Especially 3 as it gives a "migration
path" to existing windoze users. I know, I know, DirectX plugins are
written against Microsoft libraries, but how come mplayer on Linux can
use windows binaries (codecs) in it's system? Could the same not be
done
for audio? Surely it's the same principle? (Media data input, process,
media data ouput).
Yes this should be possibile since both DirectX and VST are documented
APIs. 
22 Oct
22 Oct
6:33 a.m.
New subject: [linux-audio-dev] Re: The Image (usablity) problem from a Musicians point of view
On Tue, 2002-10-22 at 02:23, Paul Davis wrote:
But there are not very many "pro
audio" plugins under DirectX - lots of instruments and wierdo
enthusiast FX, but not the sort of stuff that ProTools, Nuendo and
Logic users are inclined towards.
Waaahh!!! I would disagree. The Waves bundles are seriously good and
goes for thousands of dollars. Hardly low end stuff. But I do agree that
there is a lot of what you say. The instruments are DXi though.
the reason mplayer works is either:
* they are using wine to help them out
* the codecs are free of all MS system calls
i'd think that the second one was likely. unfortunately for plugins,
especially DirectX ones that come with a GUI, this is not likely to be
the case there. plugins are at least an order of magnitude more
complex than most codec modules.
I never said it would be easy :)
-Lea.
12:48 p.m.
But there are
not very many "pro
audio" plugins under DirectX - lots of instruments and wierdo
enthusiast FX, but not the sort of stuff that ProTools, Nuendo and
Logic users are inclined towards.
Waaahh!!! I would disagree. The Waves bundles are seriously good and
goes for thousands of dollars. Hardly low end stuff. 
7:14 a.m.
Hu, in fact it's the other way around: VST is a C ApI based of a very small
set of functions passing "opcodes" arround. It is wrapped with C++ on the
plugin side but you can writte C only VST plugins (well, I don't know of any
C only VST plugins anyway).
DirectX/DirectShow is totaly COM based and thus C++ is almost mandatory. Of
course you would be able to use COM objects in C by calling their methods
thru the virtual functions table but COM allready being a pain in C++ I
wouldn't advise anyone to go for this solution.
MSVCRT is just the equivalent of the gnu libc, most functions are the same
and the missing ones can be emulated quite easily with the corresponding set
of call to the libc. The main problem would more be the dependency to the
Win32 API thru gdi32.dll, user32.dll, kernel32.dll, etc... But all of these
are allready well emulated by wine (you woulnd't be able to run word or
winamp with wine without it).
Just my 0.02 euros,
Sebastien
----- Original Message -----
From: "Paul Davis" <paul(a)linuxaudiosystems.com>
To: <linux-audio-dev(a)music.columbia.edu>
Sent: Tuesday, October 22, 2002 3:23 AM
Subject: Re: [linux-audio-dev] Re: The Image (usablity) problem from a
Musicians point of view
VST is a C++ API, and thus its easy for plugins to end up having
dependencies on MSVCRT.dll or its equivalent with other compilers,
which is not available under linux, even with wine.
DirectX is more of a possibility, since its C API (though i am not
sure if this avoid dependencies on unavailable MS system calls - i
don't know what state wine is in). But there are not very many "pro
audio" plugins under DirectX - lots of instruments and wierdo
enthusiast FX, but not the sort of stuff that ProTools, Nuendo and
Logic users are inclined towards.
2:19 p.m.
Hu, in fact it's the other way around: VST is a C
ApI based of a very small
[ ... ]
sebastien - thanks a lot for the clarification. you are right about
VST being a C API in a fundamental sense, but i think it more than
notable that there are no C plugins, only C++ ones. i was simply wrong
about DX being C. thanks.
--p
2:23 p.m.
Yes, sure, I'm pretty sure nobody ever made a pure C vstplugin. I'm not sure
about how Borland C & Delphi users manage to make plugins though. I believe
Delphi user only use the C API but this is becoming mostly rethorical now :)
Sebastien
----- Original Message -----
From: "Paul Davis" <paul(a)linuxaudiosystems.com>
To: <linux-audio-dev(a)music.columbia.edu>
Sent: Tuesday, October 22, 2002 6:18 PM
Subject: Re: [linux-audio-dev] Re: The Image (usablity) problem from a
Musicians point of view
>Hu, in fact it's the other way around: VST is
a C ApI based of a very
small
[ ... ]
sebastien - thanks a lot for the clarification. you are right about
VST being a C API in a fundamental sense, but i think it more than
notable that there are no C plugins, only C++ ones. i was simply wrong
about DX being C. thanks.
--p
3:37 p.m.
From my experience with linux and audio I would say it
is too early to
start widely promoting linux as a professional audio solution, in
general.
It is just not there at this point.
A couple of things could be "promoted", though.
Companies or individuals that want to offer commercial (professional)
linux audio solutions or services can promote their product(s). I think it
is _not_ impossible to assemble a turnkey solution that will work for a
given task. If it works and you want to sell it, then of course you have
to promote it somehow. But it is the company promoting a product, not the
linux audio community as a whole promoting the platform.
Another one would be sharing success stories. If you are using linux in a
professional audio environment successfully then by all means tell the
world (and us :-). But tell the whole story, including the painful start
(_if_ it was painful, of course :-) as well. I'm not talking here about
the more common "I finally got ardour to work and it is cool" but the "I
cut an album with ardour, it was not easy but the end result is great"
(just an example).
IMHO word of mouth from users that are happy with their systems is what
should make linux successfull in the professional audio world.
When that happens big commercial companies will probably also take notice.
-- Fernando
8:26 a.m.
On Tue, Oct 22, 2002 at 01:36:48 +0200, Benno Senoner wrote:
Indeed the ability to run DX and VST on Linux would be
a good selling
point for pro audio on linux but there is still lot to do in the fields
of basic audio platform infrastructure and integration of the different
components.
I'm not sure this would be a great idea. It looks good to say we support
90% of DX plugins (or whatever), but it might just disuade developers from
porting to native linux binaries. You can bet DX emulation would be slower
and less reliable than native Windows, giving the impression that Linux
was slow and unreliable.
Given that many of the respected plugin developers allready release for
Windows, Macos and TDM, I dont think they would have a problem with adding
Linux to that list. Not that there is an API for them to port to, but that
is another matter...
- Steve
10:20 p.m.
New subject: [linux-audio-dev] Re: The Image (usablity) problem from a Musicians point of view
This is the same issue as with Linux Games. Does wine hurt or help?
Well, here's my take: If Linux doesn't run the software they're used to
then they wont use it in the first place. Once there is a marketbase,
then the NEXT generation of stuff would be written natively as they
would see that it gives them more benefit.
Wishing for people to write native apps for a system with no market is
like wishing Windows would die. It might happen, but it's not bloody
likely.
-Lea.
On Tue, 2002-10-22 at 11:23, Steve Harris wrote:
I'm not sure this would be a great idea. It looks
good to say we support
90% of DX plugins (or whatever), but it might just disuade developers from
porting to native linux binaries. You can bet DX emulation would be slower
and less reliable than native Windows, giving the impression that Linux
was slow and unreliable.
Given that many of the respected plugin developers allready release for
Windows, Macos and TDM, I dont think they would have a problem with adding
Linux to that list. Not that there is an API for them to port to, but that
is another matter...
- Steve
10:39 p.m.
Wishing for people to write native apps for a system
with no market is
like wishing Windows would die. It might happen, but it's not bloody
likely.
steinberg committed to neundo on beos when beos had even less market
than linux does now (*). so did several other companies. one of them, iZ,
even went so far as to base an entire product (the RADAR HDR system)
around that OS.
--p
(*) of course, no public release of nuendo for beos, or (i think) even
nuendo for irix, has ever took place.
23 Oct
23 Oct
12:16 a.m.
Paul Davis wrote:
>(*) of course, no public release of nuendo for
beos, or (i think) even
> nuendo for irix, has ever took place.
>
>
Rather unfortunate, in many ways. I love Irix, and and you would think
it wouldn't be too hard to port the Irx code
to Linux.
-dgm
(Who has been searching for a copy of Irix for Nuendo for the last few
years so that he would be able to justify
buying that used O2 he fantasizes about every now and again....)
8004
days inactive
8005
days old
linux-audio-dev@lists.linuxaudio.org
11 comments
7 participants
participants (7)
-
Benno Senoner -
David Gerard Matthews -
Fernando Pablo Lopez-Lezcano -
Lea Anthony -
Paul Davis -
Sebastien Metrot -
Steve Harris