Re: Behringer [was Re: [linux-audio-user] Re: [linux-audio-dev] RME is no more] - Linux-audio-dev

28 Nov 2004

On Sun, 2004-11-28 at 14:03, tim hall wrote:
...
  Last Saturday 27 November 2004 21:36, Lee Revell was
like:
  On Sat, 2004-11-27 at 15:43 -0500, Lee Revell
wrote:
   Did this
happen? 
 Maybe not to them but look at Mackie and Behringer. 
 Just to save people some googling here is a thread that documents the
 long and colorful history of pro audio hardware manufacturers blatantly
 ripping each other off, often leaving the victims with no legal
 recourse:

 http://homerecording.com/bbs/archive/index.php/t-74439.html

 IMO the issue is not whether RME's concern is valid - clearly it is.
 Sorry, but arguing otherwise makes us look stupid and naive.  The issue
 is how to address this concern.  If that means a closed source Linux
 driver, fine.

 Maybe the reason no firewire hardware is supported is because Behringer
 and their ilk would instantly have all the info they need to copy the
 design and mass produce it.  Doesn't matter how cheap the device is to
 design - it will _always_ be cheaper to rip someone off than design it
 yourself.  They can even sell at a loss, due to huge cash reserves -
 they only need to sustain it long enough to put the competition out of
 business.  In the case of the "Swizz Army Tuner", the original designers
 were ripped off by Behringer, but a lawsuit would have bankrupted them
 _even if they won_ so could not take action.

 I think many people in this thread underestimate how cutthroat the
 hardware business is.  
 Yeah, If I was the MD of RME, after reading some of the responses on this 
 thread I'd be thinking of flippin' the bird at all these ungrateful linux 
 users.  
I think it's about defending the position of open source and its nature.
And the work that people do here no matter whether for fun or not.
...
 From now on every company that doesn't do it like
audioscience does, is a plain loser to me, no matter whether they provide specs or
not. It's
because other people do the actual work + support providing.

If MacOSX can have them, so can we, we have a greater marketshare.

Why the heck should we *always* understand them? Why can't they
understand *us*? 

...
  We're a minority group and I think the onus is on
us to convince RME 
 to produce a driver for their firewire hardware, politely and if necessary, 
 via the florists ;-). OK, so closed-source drivers are far from ideal, but 
 better than a hole in the head. 
http://www.audioscience.com

If they can, who can't? I can't see the difference, can anyone explain?

...

 It means that the drivers can't be bundled with distros and we won't be able 
 to provide users & developers with technical support, which is a great shame.

 However, I suspect a certain amount of well-reasoned persistence will pay off 
 here. Sure, our numbers on this list aren't great, but they are significant.  
There are many audio hw customers outside of this list (see CK's post
for example, or judging form experience - somewhere on #gnome talking
about rme ;) plus tons of talks on #lad - Q: "hi, what's the best card
for audio under linux? A: "rme or if you don't have that much money,
maudio")
...

 OK, _very_ few people are using firewire technology for music, up till now I'd 
 considered it the preserve of mac/motu users.  
I think a majority of pc based audio hw will be fw based in the near
future. Every manufacturer will have at least one product. Scary.

...
  I think we should continue to 
 support RME where licenses allow and look forward to the day that they 
 release their firewire drivers :-). 
That is going to be the day their hw becomes redundant on the market? Or
even discontinued? That's the problem i'm seeing.

...
   I think we should keep up the pressure on 
 manufacturers like MOTU too. They'll see sense eventually. ;-] 
I doubt it. They have their own sw products, like the DP. In their case
i can pretty much understand why they don't do that if they see linux
audio as a competition.

...

 Mine is an equally naive viewpoint, but with the knowledge that a little bit 
 of positive thinking can go a long way, especially when backed up with a 
 well-researched wish-list and plenty of patience.  
2 years korg and now this. Trust me it's not possible to cope with that
for a long time :)

Marek