12 Sep
2003
12 Sep
'03
1:02 p.m.
Hi,
Firstly, some info on myself. I've been a linux user for a few years, and I've
been dabbling with computer based music for a long while (Scream Tracker... I still love
you!).
Right now, I have a dual boot machine - windows for Cubase SX, linux for everything
else.
Every now and then, I have a look at what's going on with linux music software, but
so far I can't justify moving from Cubase.
Now, the meat of my mail:
1. I can program. Really, I can. I have a Soft. Eng. degree and I'm going to
start writing my PhD thesis soon (within 6 months, hopefully). I've got a basic to
good knowledge of quite a few languages: perl, python, C, C++, Java, mostly. So I should
be able to write the groovy audio apps I want, right? No. There are huge areas where my
knowledge is lacking - optimisation, basic techniques for real-time programming, efficient
implementations for standard things, etc. This isn't because I can't learn them,
but because, so far, I haven't needed to. I browse around the internet, looking for
some kind of repository of this kind of knowledge, but I can't find it. If you know
where it is, please let me know. So, my first question is: where does a newbie go to
learn? I doubt Native Instruments or Steinberg will be quick to tell me the tricks and
hacks that they use.
2. The big app... I see lots of things in development, but that seems to be the problem
- they are lots of separate things. Now, I hear that Jack is the next big thing, but is
it enough? It seems like a great idea - synchronise multiple multiple apps and mix their
output - but I can't see this being enough. I think it seems more suited to using a
couple of apps together than for combining instruments into a track. When I write
something in Cubase, I expect to click "save" and for all my connections,
parameter values, automation, mixer settings, etc. to be stored, ready to be opened next
time I feel like it without having to go through a number of apps and remember which files
went with this project. Maybe I'm wrong - I hope I am - but Jack doesn't appear
to come close to Cubase in this respect. Is there something else out there?
3. I want to know the state of play. Not of one app, but of the whole linux audio
scene. Which apps work together? Which apps have debs, rpms, mdks, or whatever. Is
there some kind of site like this? If there isn't, how about we build one? Something
that would really keep it all together. Imagine:
- Articles for developers and users
- FAQs that cover a whole host of apps
- Info on the current state of apps
- Pre-compiled packages that work together - something like demudi would be good, but
more as a work in progress system - something we could all use to test software,
interoperability, etc. in an environment that is (as much as possible) what the end users
will have.
- Tutorials, links, guidelines. Now, guidelines is a good idea!
- A big, all encompassing TODO list.
- A combined effort on documentation. I think a nice manual that covers a whole audio
setup would be good.
4. I'm fully intending to start writing audio apps. My first attempt will be a
tracker - something I can cut my audio teeth on and produce something I want. I really do
like the tracker paradigm. Anyway, any pointers are welcome - especially concerning things
in item 1. I intend to document my progress and hopefully turn it into a guide to writing
audio apps for people who are in my position right now. Of course, if it all goes wrong,
it might become a what-not-to-do kind of document, but I hope not.
So, this is my first contributin to the list. Please let me know what you think. Flame
me, call me a git/idiot/moron/whatever, just don't ignore me ;)
James
12 Sep
12 Sep
1:22 p.m.
ory of this kind of knowledge, but I can't find it.
If you know where it is,
please let me know. So, my first question is: where does a newbie go to learn
? I doubt Native Instruments or Steinberg will be quick to tell me the tricks
and hacks that they use.
you have to read the source. even if none of the larger applications
that any of us are working on ever actually "succeed" in conventional
terms, they represent a huge repository of information on some
potential ways to do things. this is something very important to me -
even if ardour bombs and i end up working at REI selling backpacks, it
will live on as an example of how to do certain things that a DAW has
to do. possibly a bad example, but an example nonetheless.
use the source(s). read it. come to grips with it. please don't expect
us to write white papers on software design for real time audio at the
same time as writing real time audio software without pay!
mbining instruments into a track. When I write
something in Cubase, I expect
to click "save" and for all my connections, parameter values, automation, mixe
r settings, etc. to be stored, ready to be opened next time I feel like it wit
hout having to go through a number of apps and remember which files went with
this project. Maybe I'm wrong - I hope I am - but Jack doesn't appear to come
close to Cubase in this respect. Is there something else out there?
your saved state in cubase is the saved state of just a single
program. those instruments you loaded are all individual plugins that
ran within the context of cubase. most programs similar to cubase on
linux can do just what you are describing.
if you were using rewire, say to connect cubase and reason, then
cubase could not do what you are asking (and neither could rewire,
AFAIK). JACK isn't about connecting plugins, just like rewire isn't
about connecting plugins. its a way to wire together multiple
applications so that they can talk to each other and run in sync with
each other. but then again, perhaps rewire can. we've discussed ways
to do this with JACK, but at this time, most JACK apps are not
supporting any of the ideas that have been put forwards.
3. I want to know the state of play. Not of one app,
but of the whole linux
audio scene. Which apps work together? Which apps have debs, rpms, mdks, or
whatever. Is there some kind of site like this? If there isn't, how about w
e build one? Something that would really keep it all together. Imagine:
Planet CCRMA is the closest thing i know of to this, but its for
RPM-based systems only, perhaps even just RH.
- Articles for developers and users
- FAQs that cover a whole host of apps
- Info on the current state of apps
- Pre-compiled packages that work together - something like demudi woul
d be good, but more as a work in progress system - something we could all use
to test software, interoperability, etc. in an environment that is (as much as
possible) what the end users will have.
- Tutorials, links, guidelines. Now, guidelines is a good idea!
- A big, all encompassing TODO list.
- A combined effort on documentation. I think a nice manual that cover
s a whole audio setup would be good.
all sounds good. i take it you have the funds and or the time to make
this happen?
4. I'm fully intending to start writing audio
apps. My first attempt will b
e a tracker - something I can cut my audio teeth on and produce something I wa
nt. I really do like the tracker paradigm. Anyway, any pointers are welcome -
especially concerning things in item 1. I intend to document my progress and
hopefully turn it into a guide to writing audio apps for people who are in my
position right now. Of course, if it all goes wrong, it might become a what-
not-to-do kind of document, but I hope not.
why don't you take an existing program and make it do something
better, or something that it doesn't already do? your contribution
will be more valuable, you'll learn from the inside out rather than
outside in, and you still get to learn from mistakes (though they may
not be your own). rather than creating Yet Another Tracker, you'll
have done something that can be used by others (and yourself) very
quickly.
--p
2:09 p.m.
On Fri, 12 Sep, 2003 at 11:17AM -0400, Paul Davis spake thus:
<snip>
I might be able to scrape together another 10p.
Time isn't something I have a huge amount of, either.
For now, I'll stick with the learning and write up what I find.
<snip>
use the source(s). read it. come to grips with it.
please don't expect
us to write white papers on software design for real time audio at the
same time as writing real time audio software without pay!
I have 10p you can have. But seriously, I take your point.
I was just wondering if anyone had written these things down.
I don't mind buying a book, if it comes with a recommendation from the people on this
list.
Although, if you *did* write this stuff down, I could buy a book *from* the people on this
list :)
Planet CCRMA is the closest thing i know of to this, but its for
RPM-based systems only, perhaps even just RH.
Oh, well.
- Articles for
developers and users
- FAQs that cover a whole host of apps
- Info on the current state of apps
- Pre-compiled packages that work together - something like demudi woul
d be good, but more as a work in progress system - something we could all use
to test software, interoperability, etc. in an environment that is (as much as
possible) what the end users will have.
- Tutorials, links, guidelines. Now, guidelines is a good idea!
- A big, all encompassing TODO list.
- A combined effort on documentation. I think a nice manual that cover
s a whole audio setup would be good.
all sounds good. i take it you have the funds and or the time to make
this happen? why don't you take an existing program and make it
do something
better, or something that it doesn't already do? your contribution
will be more valuable, you'll learn from the inside out rather than
outside in, and you still get to learn from mistakes (though they may
not be your own). rather than creating Yet Another Tracker, you'll
have done something that can be used by others (and yourself) very
quickly.
I think you're right. CheeseTracker wasn't a bad IT clone - I think I'll have
a
bash at adding a few features to that. Probably a good place to start. Anyone disagree?
Thanks
--p
13 Sep
13 Sep
9:23 a.m.
Hallo,
James Shuttleworth hat gesagt: // James Shuttleworth wrote:
I think you're right. CheeseTracker wasn't a
bad IT clone - I think
I'll have a bash at adding a few features to that. Probably a good
place to start. Anyone disagree?
I'd love it if I could compile Shaketracker with a 3.2 g++ compiler
again. Mabe you could take a look at that, too?
(Only half kidding...)
ciao
--
Frank Barknecht _ ______footils.org__
9:46 a.m.
On Fri, 12 Sep 2003, James Shuttleworth wrote:
Yes, me. Cheestracker is just "Yet Another Tracker". Please look at my
program "Radium" too, http://www.notam02.no/radium/. Its (some kind of) a
tracker, but without the obvious limitations of a tracker.
--
why don't
you take an existing program and make it do something
better, or something that it doesn't already do? your contribution
will be more valuable, you'll learn from the inside out rather than
outside in, and you still get to learn from mistakes (though they may
not be your own). rather than creating Yet Another Tracker, you'll
have done something that can be used by others (and yourself) very
quickly.
I think you're right. CheeseTracker wasn't a bad IT clone - I think I'll
have a
bash at adding a few features to that. Probably a good place to start. Anyone
disagree?
10:07 a.m.
On Sat, 13 Sep, 2003 at 01:31PM +0200, Kjetil S. Matheussen spake thus:
On Fri, 12 Sep 2003, James Shuttleworth wrote:
Yes, me. Cheestracker is just "Yet Another Tracker". Please look at my
program "Radium" too, http://www.notam02.no/radium/. Its (some kind of) a
tracker, but without the obvious limitations of a tracker.
Bloody Nora! That looks good! I've only looked at the screenshot,
and I'm impressed already!
why
don't you take an existing program and make it do something
better, or something that it doesn't already do? your contribution
will be more valuable, you'll learn from the inside out rather than
outside in, and you still get to learn from mistakes (though they may
not be your own). rather than creating Yet Another Tracker, you'll
have done something that can be used by others (and yourself) very
quickly.
I think you're right. CheeseTracker wasn't a bad IT clone - I think I'll
have a
bash at adding a few features to that. Probably a good place to start. Anyone
disagree?
10:20 a.m.
On Sat, 13 Sep 2003, James Shuttleworth wrote:
On Sat, 13 Sep, 2003 at 01:31PM +0200, Kjetil S.
Matheussen spake thus:
Wow, thanks. The linux-version is nearly there now. Its just on my
harddisk right now, but I'll try to release a beta quite soon.
Here is an old screenshot from linux:
http://www.notam02.no/~kjetism/radium/pictures/v062_linux.png
--
On Fri, 12 Sep 2003, James Shuttleworth wrote:
Yes, me. Cheestracker is just "Yet Another Tracker". Please look at my
program "Radium" too, http://www.notam02.no/radium/. Its (some kind of) a
tracker, but without the obvious limitations of a tracker.
Bloody Nora! That looks good! I've only looked at the screenshot,
and I'm impressed already!
why
don't you take an existing program and make it do something
better, or something that it doesn't already do? your contribution
will be more valuable, you'll learn from the inside out rather than
outside in, and you still get to learn from mistakes (though they may
not be your own). rather than creating Yet Another Tracker, you'll
have done something that can be used by others (and yourself) very
quickly.
I think you're right. CheeseTracker wasn't a bad IT clone - I think I'll
have a
bash at adding a few features to that. Probably a good place to start. Anyone
disagree?
10:29 a.m.
On Sat, 13 Sep, 2003 at 12:53PM +0100, James Shuttleworth spake thus:
On Sat, 13 Sep, 2003 at 01:31PM +0200, Kjetil S.
Matheussen spake thus:
Ever think about making a port to linux? Oh, just noticed the bit on
your site about that. Good luck with it.
James
On Fri, 12 Sep 2003, James Shuttleworth wrote:
Yes, me. Cheestracker is just "Yet Another Tracker". Please look at my
program "Radium" too, http://www.notam02.no/radium/. Its (some kind of) a
tracker, but without the obvious limitations of a tracker.
Bloody Nora! That looks good! I've only looked at the screenshot,
and I'm impressed already! why
don't you take an existing program and make it do something
better, or something that it doesn't already do? your contribution
will be more valuable, you'll learn from the inside out rather than
outside in, and you still get to learn from mistakes (though they may
not be your own). rather than creating Yet Another Tracker, you'll
have done something that can be used by others (and yourself) very
quickly.
I think you're right. CheeseTracker wasn't a bad IT clone - I think I'll
have a
bash at adding a few features to that. Probably a good place to start. Anyone
disagree?
12 Sep
12 Sep
1:41 p.m.
On Fri, Sep 12, 2003 at 03:47:23PM +0100, James Shuttleworth wrote:
2. The big app... I see lots of things in
development, but that seems
to be the problem - they are lots of separate things. Now, I hear that
Jack is the next big thing, but is it enough? It seems like a great
idea - synchronise multiple multiple apps and mix their output - but I
can't see this being enough. I think it seems more suited to using a
couple of apps together than for combining instruments into a track.
When I write something in Cubase, I expect to click "save" and for
all my connections, parameter values, automation, mixer settings,
etc. to be stored, ready to be opened next time I feel like it
without having to go through a number of apps and remember which
files went with this project. Maybe I'm wrong - I hope I am -
but Jack doesn't appear to come close to Cubase in this respect.
Is there something else out there?
http://pkl.net/~node/ladcca.html
Could probably use your help. Now that JACK is pretty mature,
I think laddca is the next "killer framework" for linux audio.
But it's not mature and not widely implemented.
3. I want to know the state of play. Not of one
app, but of
the whole linux audio scene. Which apps work together? Which
apps have debs, rpms, mdks, or whatever. Is there some kind
of site like this? If there isn't, how about we build one?
I've been planning to, for AGES, and one of these days i'll really
do it, honest :-) It should only really take me a weekend
of fiddling with Zope.
Something that would really keep it all together.
Imagine:
- Articles for developers and users
yup
- FAQs that cover a whole host of apps
wikis too
- Info on the current state of apps
would be built into the app-listing system
- Pre-compiled packages that work together -
that's a whole huge project in its own right. I'm not going there.
Anyway, others have already done so: PlanetCCRMA and Demudi,
most notably.
- Tutorials, links, guidelines. Now, guidelines is a
good idea!
yup
- A big, all encompassing TODO list.
huh?
- A combined effort on documentation. I think a nice
manual
that covers a whole audio setup would be good.
would be cool.
--
Paul Winkler
http://www.slinkp.com
Look! Up in the sky! It's SPICY SNOTNOSE TACO!
(random hero from isometric.spaceninja.com)
3:05 p.m.
- FAQs that
cover a whole host of apps
wikis too
3:31 p.m.
"Rob Taylor" <robt(a)flyingpig.com> writes:
Hmm, running with this point, does anyone have a wiki
up that could
be used for a LAD faq/info repoistory? If not, does anyone have a
server/suitable web space that could be used to host one? I
volunteer to install wiki (lol, that's the easy bit.. :)
Why not contribute to <http://www.djcj.org/LAU/guide>?
--
Jack O'Quin
Austin, Texas, USA
4:09 p.m.
On Fri, Sep 12, 2003 at 12:17:08PM -0500, Jack O'Quin wrote:
"Rob Taylor" <robt(a)flyingpig.com>
writes:
A good and noble idea, but neither djcj.org nor linuxdj.com
are as easy or collaborative to contribute to as a wiki is.
There are little details I don't like about the wiki implementations
I've played with; but having been involved in a dev. project that uses
them extensively (Zope 3), I have to say it's a very nice solution to
the online collaboration / communication issue.
Vastly more fluid than a static web page, more organizable than a blog,
RE-organizable, easier to navigate than an archived mailing list or
usenet group, easily searchable, and trivial to learn how to use.
I haven't seen anything else that has all those characteristics.
--
Paul Winkler
http://www.slinkp.com
Look! Up in the sky! It's NIHIL ACTION HERO-X!
(random hero from isometric.spaceninja.com)
Hmm, running with this point, does anyone have a
wiki up that could
be used for a LAD faq/info repoistory? If not, does anyone have a
server/suitable web space that could be used to host one? I
volunteer to install wiki (lol, that's the easy bit.. :)
Why not contribute to <http://www.djcj.org/LAU/guide>?
4:25 p.m.
-----Original Message-----
From: linux-audio-dev-admin(a)music.columbia.edu
[mailto:linux-audio-dev-admin@music.columbia.edu]On Behalf Of Jack
O'Quin
Sent: 12 September 2003 18:17
To: linux-audio-dev(a)music.columbia.edu
Subject: Re: [linux-audio-dev] Lots of stuff...
"Rob Taylor" <robt(a)flyingpig.com> writes:
well i think i'd feel a bit silly sending in single line things as i
discovered them, and then taking up someones time to get that added... thats
the beauty of a wiki, all thats automagic.
Rob
Hmm, running with this point, does anyone have a
wiki up that could
be used for a LAD faq/info repoistory? If not, does anyone have a
server/suitable web space that could be used to host one? I
volunteer to install wiki (lol, that's the easy bit.. :)
Why not contribute to <http://www.djcj.org/LAU/guide>?
3:51 p.m.
On Fri, Sep 12, 2003 at 05:37:43PM +0100, Rob Taylor wrote:
Hmm, runningn with this point, does anyone have a wiki up that could be used
for a LAD faq/info repoistory?
I already have a host set up and running a framework in which I can create
a new wiki in seconds. What I need to do is set up a portal in
which LAD people can register and then create new stuff.
That, too, could be done in minutes if I don't care about customizing
the look & feel.
If there's a lot of demand, I could do this sometime next week
(will be away this weekend).
--
Paul Winkler
http://www.slinkp.com
Look! Up in the sky! It's NANO CAPTAIN!
(random hero from isometric.spaceninja.com)
- FAQs that cover a whole host of apps
wikis too
4:34 p.m.
On Fri, 12 Sep, 2003 at 05:37PM +0100, Rob Taylor spake thus:
Hmm, runningn with this point, does anyone have a wiki up that could be used
for a LAD faq/info repoistory?
If not, does anyone have a server/suitable web space that could be used to
host one? I volunteer to install wiki (lol, that's the easy bit.. :)
Well that's something I *can* contribute right now.
I hope I don't sound rude, but I'd rather set it up myself.
James
- FAQs that cover a whole host of apps
wikis too
Rob
5:06 p.m.
On Fri, Sep 12, 2003 at 07:19:15PM +0100, James Shuttleworth wrote:
On Fri, 12 Sep, 2003 at 05:37PM +0100, Rob Taylor
spake thus:
Hmm, runningn with this point, does anyone have a wiki up that could be used
for a LAD faq/info repoistory?
If not, does anyone have a server/suitable web space that could be used to
host one? I volunteer to install wiki (lol, that's the easy bit.. :)
Well that's something I *can* contribute right now.
I hope I don't sound rude, but I'd rather set it up myself.
Sure, go ahead... *if* we later decide they'd be better unified, and *if*
I've realized my plan by then, we can argue about whose to continue with
... and vaporware always loses :-)
--
Paul Winkler
http://www.slinkp.com
Look! Up in the sky! It's MECHA MAN-RECEIVER!
(random hero from isometric.spaceninja.com)
- FAQs that cover a whole host of apps
wikis too
13 Sep
13 Sep
7:16 a.m.
On Fri, 12 Sep, 2003 at 02:45PM -0400, Paul Winkler spake thus:
On Fri, Sep 12, 2003 at 07:19:15PM +0100, James
Shuttleworth wrote:
Ooops. Sorry, I didn't mean to offend. All I meant was, I have space, I just
don't want to hand out passwords. I didn't mean I was going to try and build some
sort of competitor.
Sorry.
On Fri, 12 Sep, 2003 at 05:37PM +0100, Rob Taylor
spake thus:
Well that's something I *can* contribute right now.
I hope I don't sound rude, but I'd rather set it up myself.
Sure, go ahead... *if* we later decide they'd be better unified, and *if*
I've realized my plan by then, we can argue about whose to continue with
... and vaporware always loses :-) > -
FAQs that cover a whole host of apps
wikis too
Hmm, runningn with this point, does anyone have a wiki up that could be used
for a LAD faq/info repoistory?
If not, does anyone have a server/suitable web space that could be used to
host one? I volunteer to install wiki (lol, that's the easy bit.. :) --
Paul Winkler
http://www.slinkp.com
Look! Up in the sky! It's MECHA MAN-RECEIVER!
(random hero from isometric.spaceninja.com)
15 Sep
15 Sep
2:15 a.m.
On Sat, Sep 13, 2003 at 10:02:23AM +0100, James Shuttleworth wrote:
Ooops. Sorry, I didn't mean to offend.
you didn't!
communicating by email is hard sometimes :-)
All I meant was, I have space, I just don't want
to hand out passwords.
I didn't mean I was going to try and build some sort of competitor.
And all I meant to say was, my promises should be taken with a grain
of salt until I have actually delivered something.
If you or somebody else has established something before I have,
I won't get in the way.
--
Paul Winkler
http://www.slinkp.com
Look! Up in the sky! It's NAYSEER PIDDLE!
(random hero from isometric.spaceninja.com)
9:04 a.m.
On Sun, 14 Sep, 2003 at 11:55PM -0400, Paul Winkler spake thus:
On Sat, Sep 13, 2003 at 10:02:23AM +0100, James
Shuttleworth wrote:
Hehe! I got all of that ass-backwards. Sorry.
Ooops. Sorry, I didn't mean to offend.
you didn't!
communicating by email is hard sometimes :-)
All I meant was, I have space, I just don't
want to hand out passwords.
I didn't mean I was going to try and build some sort of competitor.
And all I meant to say was, my promises should be taken with a grain
of salt until I have actually delivered something.
If you or somebody else has established something before I have,
I won't get in the way.
13 Sep
13 Sep
noon
Hallo,
Paul Winkler hat gesagt: // Paul Winkler wrote:
Sure, go ahead... *if* we later decide they'd be
better unified, and *if*
I've realized my plan by then, we can argue about whose to continue with
... and vaporware always loses :-)
I'd love to have a wiki at one of the introduced linuxaudiodev sites,
like djcj or linuxdj.com
Then we also wouldn't need to abuse my footils.org-wiki for organising
the LAD meetings anymore ;)
There already are wikis for Linux audio stuff, like the pawfal wiki,
but the best place would be linuxdj or djcj.
ciao
--
Frank Barknecht _ ______footils.org__
12 Sep
12 Sep
6:21 p.m.
El viernes, 12 de septiembre de 2003, a las 17:37, Rob Taylor escribe:
If not, does anyone have a server/suitable web space
that could be used to
host one?
SourceForge.net provides web space for this kind of projects, and even
PHP enabled, for dynamic contents, doesn't it?
Regards, Ismael
--
"Tout fourmille de commentaries; d'auteurs il en est grande cherté"
7664
days inactive
7667
days old
linux-audio-dev@lists.linuxaudio.org
20 comments
8 participants
participants (8)
-
Frank Barknecht -
Ismael Valladolid Torres -
Jack O'Quin -
James Shuttleworth -
Kjetil S. Matheussen -
Paul Davis -
Paul Winkler -
Rob Taylor