Re: [LAD] palm pre [was Re: [ANNOUNCE] Safe real-time on thedesktop by default; Desktop/audio RT developers, read this!] - Linux-audio-dev

24 Jun 2009

oops, yeah, wrong discussion thread :)
I'm a coder too but not at all in linux-audio, although I started designing a few
applications (nothing around DSP or linux core system, kernel, etc, this is way beyond my
understanding at the moment. FYI, the closest thing to kernel stuff I did lately was
patching oss2jack and kfusd so that this rather obsolete tool could run against kernel
2.6.29).
But yes, I wanted to bring a user's point of view to the LAD discussion.
About the dual boot, I don't know if it's the best solution but it is certainly a
compromise. And one that I would not do myself. I tend to build my own PCs from various
components for specific tasks. I find this process cheaper and feel I have a better
control over its functioning / etc.
About KDE, I am not particularly fond of it, it's just an old habit. I could never get
used to gnome although it looks like a fine WM as well. I tried other stuff as well but in
the end, I always come back to the shell :)
OK, I'll stop the OT blabla.
J.
--- On Wed, 6/24/09, Ralf Mardorf &lt;ralf.mardorf(a)alice-dsl.net&gt; wrote:
...
  From: Ralf Mardorf &lt;ralf.mardorf(a)alice-dsl.net&gt;
 Subject: Re: [LAD] palm pre [was Re: [ANNOUNCE] Safe real-time on thedesktop by default;
Desktop/audio RT developers, read this!]
 To: "James Warden" &lt;warjamy(a)yahoo.com&gt;
 Cc: linux-audio-dev(a)lists.linuxaudio.org
 Date: Wednesday, June 24, 2009, 8:05 AM
 I dunno if you're a coder too, but
 those words you wrote are the words of a user :).
 By the way I'm a fan of extremes, I like KDE (only with
 KWin) ex 3.5.9 and Ion2, but actually I'm running GNOME and
 this also has is advantages and disadvantages.
 Do you agree that a dual or multi boot might be the best
 solution to fit to all needs?
 I would interpret your mail this way. You didn't blame any
 sound server, but you make out for which usage you are fine
 with which sound server. Am I wrong?
 The 'palm pre' thread is uncoupled from the origin thread,
 that's why I guess it's okay to speak about user needs here,
 nobody will disturb any technical expert knowledge
 discussion at the original thread.
 By the way, an rt-audio distro like 64 Studio often works
 OOB for rt-audio too, not for my hardware, but it is made to
 fit to many hardware combinations.
 Thank you for reporting your experiences.
 Cheers,
 Ralf
 James Warden wrote:
  Just a small comment, and then I shut up:
 the great thing about linux is its flexibility. I have  a few boxes at home doing
different things:
  - a multimedia server based on mythtv, NFS and
samba
 - a powerful DAW running an RT patched kernel
 - a couple of laptops for AOB (any other business)
 For the AOB laptops, it was nice not to do anything  once I installed the distro.
Things worked OOB, and that was
 it.

 For the DAW or multimedia server, that was another  story ... but simply because
customized systems require,
 well, customization. The all-in-one distro is and I think
 will remain a utopia.
  This said, I recently upgraded my DAW to KDE 4.2
(was  3.5.9 before upgrade) and that automatically installed
 pulseaudio. I had already fiddled around with pulseaudio
 about a year ago due to my using VirtualBox (another story).
 I found pulse's features kinda cool and I quickly understood
 it was not meant as a replacement or alternative to
 Jack. 
  As of today, my DAW has pulseaudio installed. But
all  I had to do was:
  - open the KDE system settings - disable ALL
sound  stuff I could find

 So basically, KDE offered me the possibility to not  interact at all with the sound
layer. It was obviously not a
 default setting but it was just a few clicks away.

 So let me be straight: it should remain like that.
 On average, a user installing e.g. KDE will expect  desktop sounds to work (sound
notifications, mp3 players,
 DVD playback, what-not). That's not what I want in my DAW at
 all but being myself an old linux "power user", I knew that
 it would do that (experience with artsd). I mean,  how
 could the KDE installation possibly know that it was to be
 running on a DAW ?! :D I am glad the desktop config
 interface allowed me to configure it the way I wanted (no
 extra special services in the background, no sound system
 other than what I want for my DAW). 
  Now, if things were to change (no longer the
 possibility to configure e.g. KDE the way I want), I would
 definitely feel pissed-off and complain on some mailing
 lists. But let's be also clear: pulseaudio is definitely NOT
 the worst things that could happen. It works fine on my
 laptops, I don't need to do anything about it and that's
 what it was intended for: a generic and multifeatured
 desktop sound system. But desktops are also used in other
 contexts (e.g. DAW) and it would really be wise to keep
 desktop components _optional_ (not only sound system but
 also visual effects, etc). That's just simple wisdom and i
 suggest we keep it that way. The same applies to jack. It is
 a highly specialized tool and should remain so.

 OK, time to disappear from this discussion.
 Cheers,
 J.
 --- On Wed, 6/24/09, Ralf Mardorf &lt;ralf.mardorf(a)alice-dsl.net&gt;  wrote:

> From: Ralf Mardorf &lt;ralf.mardorf(a)alice-dsl.net&gt;
> Subject: Re: [LAD] palm pre [was Re: [ANNOUNCE]  Safe real-time on thedesktop
by default; Desktop/audio RT
 developers, read this!]
 > To: "james morris"
&lt;james(a)jwm-art.net&gt;
> Cc: linux-audio-dev(a)lists.linuxaudio.org
> Date: Wednesday, June 24, 2009, 6:45 AM
> james morris wrote:
>     
>> On 24/6/2009, "Patrick Shirkey" &lt;pshirkey(a)boosthardware.com&gt;
>>       
> wrote:
>     
>>         
>>> It would be helpful if things that could  make a
 >>>         
> big impact will
>     
>>> continued to be discussed within the LAD
>>>         
> community. However this is a
>     
>>> difficult situation. No matter if the  discussions
 >>>         
> are starting prior to
>     
>>> implementation or post implementation the  general
 >>>         
> direction of the
>     
>>> arguments tend to be quite emotional.
>>>
>>> Is it just because audio guys have a bit  more
 >>>         
> artistic temperament than
>     
>>> most other developers?
>>>              
 >> I don't think this adds much to what
has been  stated
 >>       
> by Fons and others,
>     
>> but perhaps it explains a little?
>>
>> I'm not a hardcore audio developer like most  of the
 >>       
> guys here, but I've
>     
>> been making audio/music/noise, and coding,  since the
 >>       
> days of 486sx25s
>     
>> and windows 3.1. Back then, and for many years  after,
 >>       
> it was a real
>     
>> concern to be able to disable as many  irrelevant (to
 >>       
> audio) processes in
>     
>> the system as possible (as I'm sure you're  aware).
 >>
>> Now I have a pretty capable system, but when I  want to
 >>       
> run RT audio apps
>     
>> I still want to disable as many irrelevant  processes
 >>       
> on the system as I
>     
>> can.
>>
>> For this reason I really dislike the big  monolithic
 >>       
> desktop environments.
>     
>> There are several applications tied into them  (some
 >>       
> serious, plain
>     
>> useful, or just fun) which I'd love to have  working
 >>       
> but which force me
>     
>> to install all sorts of software I really  don't want
 >>       
> or need - along
>     
>> with all sorts of processes running in the
>>       
> background.
>     
>> So it feels a bit freedom eroding. The choice  seems to
 >>       
> be between a
>     
>> system which 'just works' but which wastes  system
 >>       
> resources on things
>     
>> I don't want, or a system which I have to  spend hours
 >>       
> setting up,
>     
>> constantly have to deal with the  idiosyncrasies of,
 >>       
> but which is as fast
>     
>> and powerful as it could be.
>>
>> The notions of old, to raise the potential for  system
 >>       
> resources to be
>     
>> only used for the job at hand (ie audio) are  still
 >>       
> strongly rooted and
>     
>> people don't like it when they feel their  freedom to
 >>       
> use systems in
>     
>> this way is threatened by forcing them to  install
 >>       
> software and have
>     
>> running processes they don't want.
>>
>> James.
>>       
> I guess (if needed) separating rt and  bread-and-butter
 > Linux by having a dual-boot is an acceptable
 solution. A user with nearly no
 > knowledge could install a comfortable distro
for  the everyday desktop
 > environment and another for real-time usage.
Even  if somebody don't
 > have any trouble with his Linux install, he
might  wish to have a safe Linux
 > for productions and another Linux to have fun
and  fun sometimes
 > means to risk things, you won't risk for
a  installation that needs
 > to be stable all the time, that's why a
dual-boot  has also an advantage,
 > if there will be a joint venture for distro/
 desktop developers and
 > rt hardliners. I have a bad mobo and for rt
e.g. I  need to set
 > irq priority for especially the one port
where the  MIDI is connected to.
 > I don't think things like that should be
done by  the desktop

environment. This seems to be impossible.
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