6 Mar
2013
6 Mar
'13
1:05 p.m.
Greetings,
By Hartmut Noack:
http://www.linux-community.de/Internal/Artikel/Print-Artikel/LinuxUser/2013…
Excellent review, in German only, with some enticing screenshots.
Best,
dp
6 Mar
6 Mar
1:12 p.m.
On Wed, Mar 6, 2013 at 12:05 PM, Dave Phillips <dlphillips(a)woh.rr.com>wrote;wrote:
http://www.linux-community.de/Internal/Artikel/Print-Artikel/LinuxUser/2013…
Excellent review, in German only, with some enticing screenshots.
Thanks for the link, indeed cool stuff. Nice review Hartmut! :)
-Harry
2:27 p.m.
On 03/06/2013 01:05 PM, Dave Phillips wrote:
Hi!
http://www.linux-community.de/Internal/Artikel/Print-Artikel/LinuxUser/2013…
Excellent review, in German only, with some enticing screenshots.
Well, it's still vaporware. For how long are we already waiting for
Lightworks' Linux release? Exactly.
Cheers
3:23 p.m.
On Wed, Mar 6, 2013 at 8:27 AM, Adrian Knoth <adi(a)drcomp.erfurt.thur.de>wrote;wrote:
On 03/06/2013 01:05 PM, Dave Phillips wrote:
Hi!
http://www.linux-community.de/Internal/Artikel/Print-Artikel/LinuxUser/2013…
> Excellent review, in German only, with some enticing screenshots.
Well, it's still vaporware. For how long are we already waiting for
Lightworks' Linux release? Exactly.
in all fairness, its equal opportunity vaporware - it isn't out for windows
or os x yet either ....
this really is x-platform stuff, i think. java, etc.
8 Mar
8 Mar
9:04 a.m.
On Wed, 2013-03-06 at 14:27 +0100, Adrian Knoth wrote:
On 03/06/2013 01:05 PM, Dave Phillips wrote:
Hi!
It's odd hype only!
2 Cents,
Ralf
http://www.linux-community.de/Internal/Artikel/Print-Artikel/LinuxUser/2013…
Excellent review, in German only, with some enticing screenshots.
Well, it's still vaporware. For how long are we already waiting for
Lightworks' Linux release? Exactly. 
10:57 a.m.
2013/3/8 Ralf Mardorf <ralf.mardorf(a)alice-dsl.net>
On Wed, 2013-03-06 at 14:27 +0100, Adrian Knoth
wrote:
It's odd hype only!
2 Cents,
Ralf
fyi: i'm beta testing Lightworks on linux and it very real
but it's a free world, so you are of course free to ignore this fact ;-P
On 03/06/2013 01:05 PM, Dave Phillips wrote:
Hi!
>
http://www.linux-community.de/Internal/Artikel/Print-Artikel/LinuxUser/2013…
Excellent review, in German only, with some enticing screenshots.
Well, it's still vaporware. For how long are we already waiting for
Lightworks' Linux release? Exactly.
_______________________________________________
Linux-audio-dev mailing list
Linux-audio-dev(a)lists.linuxaudio.org
http://lists.linuxaudio.org/listinfo/linux-audio-dev
--
follow me on my Audio & Linux blog <http://audio-and-linux.blogspot.com/> !
2:32 p.m.
On Fri, 2013-03-08 at 10:57 +0100, Thijs van severen wrote:
2013/3/8 Ralf Mardorf <ralf.mardorf(a)alice-dsl.net>
On Wed, 2013-03-06 at 14:27 +0100, Adrian Knoth wrote:
I'm interested but where can I get a copy to test it myself? If I should
like it, when can I buy it and how much will it be?
"Since we already have a long waiting list of interested beta
testers, we are no longer accepting new beta requests. If you
would like to receive Bitwig news, please sign up for our
newsletter." - http://www.bitwig.com/bitwig-studio
Btw. not easy to read, since the fonts are small dark grey on
black
I even couldn't watch the YouTube link that was posted some time ago,
since this wasn't available in Germany.
I read thousands of times that it should be a very good native Linux
application, but than I always read that not all plugin formats are
supported, that audio binding should be less good than for other Linux
apps, such as Ardour. Now it's written that there are technical issues,
but not what kind of issues, just that those issues will be fixed, as
soon as it will be released.
Simple question: Will it be released this year, next year, in 5 or in 10
years?
I suspect in 10 years Ardour, Qtractor, Rosegarden and other apps, will
have made progress too.
At the moment all I read about Bitwig only is hype!
Regards,
Ralf
On 03/06/2013 01:05 PM, Dave Phillips wrote:
Hi!
>
http://www.linux-community.de/Internal/Artikel/Print-Artikel/LinuxUser/2013…
>
>
> Excellent review, in German only, with some enticing
screenshots.
Well, it's still vaporware. For how long are we already
waiting for
Lightworks' Linux release? Exactly.
It's odd hype only!
2 Cents,
Ralf
fyi: i'm beta testing Lightworks on linux and it very real
but it's a free world, so you are of course free to ignore this
fact ;-P 
8:14 p.m.
Ralf, what do you mean Linux can't do loop and play? I have no problem
muting individual loops in kluppe or giada or sooperlooper.
On Mar 8, 2013 5:32 PM, "Ralf Mardorf" <ralf.mardorf(a)alice-dsl.net>
wrote:
On Fri, 2013-03-08 at 10:57 +0100, Thijs van severen
wrote:
I'm interested but where can I get a copy to test it myself? If I should
like it, when can I buy it and how much will it be?
"Since we already have a long waiting list of interested beta
testers, we are no longer accepting new beta requests. If you
would like to receive Bitwig news, please sign up for our
newsletter." - http://www.bitwig.com/bitwig-studio
Btw. not easy to read, since the fonts are small dark grey on
black
I even couldn't watch the YouTube link that was posted some time ago,
since this wasn't available in Germany.
I read thousands of times that it should be a very good native Linux
application, but than I always read that not all plugin formats are
supported, that audio binding should be less good than for other Linux
apps, such as Ardour. Now it's written that there are technical issues,
but not what kind of issues, just that those issues will be fixed, as
soon as it will be released.
Simple question: Will it be released this year, next year, in 5 or in 10
years?
I suspect in 10 years Ardour, Qtractor, Rosegarden and other apps, will
have made progress too.
At the moment all I read about Bitwig only is hype!
Regards,
Ralf
_______________________________________________
Linux-audio-dev mailing list
Linux-audio-dev(a)lists.linuxaudio.org
http://lists.linuxaudio.org/listinfo/linux-audio-dev
2013/3/8 Ralf Mardorf <ralf.mardorf(a)alice-dsl.net>
On Wed, 2013-03-06 at 14:27 +0100, Adrian Knoth wrote:
http://www.linux-community.de/Internal/Artikel/Print-Artikel/LinuxUser/2013…
On 03/06/2013 01:05 PM, Dave Phillips wrote:
Hi!
>
>
>
> Excellent review, in German only, with some enticing
screenshots.
Well, it's still vaporware. For how long are we already
waiting for
Lightworks' Linux release? Exactly.
It's odd hype only!
2 Cents,
Ralf
fyi: i'm beta testing Lightworks on linux and it very real
but it's a free world, so you are of course free to ignore this
fact ;-P
9:32 p.m.
New subject: OT: Bitwig beta for Linux reviewed
On Fri, 2013-03-08 at 22:14 +0300, Louigi Verona wrote:
Ralf, what do you mean Linux can't do loop and
play? I have no problem
muting individual loops in kluppe or giada or sooperlooper.
Hi Louigi,
for Qtractor I e.g. experienced that when I play a part of a song as
loop, that hardware synth, software synth and audio after a few minutes
are completely out of sync, when using Qtractor. As we all know, jack
transport can't do loop play. Qtractor and Rosegarden can't mute
individual clips, it's only possible to mute tracks, perhaps it can be
automated, but for easily arranging a song it's better to be able to
mute and unmute clips by click. You can't see the difference between
clips with own data files and clips that share the data file with other
clips for Qtractor (for Cubase such clips are called "ghosts" and they
are shadowed). IIRC Muse can mute individual clips, but Muse never was
able to run on my machine. I tested it for different distros, in
different years.
The way recording is handled, when recording in loop play, is not that
manifold as for old proprietary sequencers.
However, we can use those FLOSS Linux apps, but just a few people can
test Bitwig.
Regards,
Ralf
@ the topic:
We already have some software that does run on Linux and I'm sceptic to
read that Bitwig should provide all kinds of features we are missing for
Linux at the moment or missing for any OS at the moment. A tester wrote
that there are technical issues, that VST and AU are supported and the
audio binding should be less good, than it should be for Ardour. Bitwig
should be an native Linux app, but seemingly it isn't.
Bitwig quasi should be what many people, including me, are waiting for.
But I don't trust those folks, they already made that much noise, I only
know from Gates, Apple and Zuckerberg, when they present something that
is ready for the market. I'm seemingly not the only one who is sceptic,
when taking a look at the graphic design of Bitwig.
10:37 p.m.
New subject: OT: Bitwig beta for Linux reviewed
On March 8, 2013 09:31:50 PM Ralf Mardorf wrote:
IIRC Muse can mute individual clips, but Muse never
was
able to run on my machine. I tested it for different distros, in
different years.
Howdy, Ralf.
Can you give us an idea of why this might be?
Any clues at all, like choice of kernels, tweaks, RTIRQs etc.
Can you briefly describe the hardware involved?
I imagine you must run a pretty tight setup there.
Your experience with MusE is important to us.
We'd like to try to correct whatever the problem is, with your help.
Thanks.
Tim.
11:48 p.m.
New subject: Muse - Was: OT: Bitwig beta for Linux reviewed
On Fri, 2013-03-08 at 16:37 -0500, Tim E. Real wrote:
On March 8, 2013 09:31:50 PM Ralf Mardorf wrote:
I'm short in time this month, I can spend some time at the end of the
month and install Muse again.
The PC is an ASUS M2A-VM HDMI with an on-board ATI Radeon X 1250-based
graphics, in the past I sometimes replaced it by a PCIe NVIDIA GeForce
7200 GS.
In the past the PC first had one, later two TerraTec EWX 24/96 ICE1712
PCI cards, for more then a year I'm using it with those two cards for
MIDI and a RME HDSPe AIO for MIDI and audio.
The CPU always was and still is an AMD Athlon 64-bit dual-core BE-2350
2.1 GHz. I started with 2 GiB RAM, but early extended to 4 GiB.
FWIW the PCIe RME card not only is bad supported, on my machine I still
get xruns with very high latency, when using the RME card, but Muse
already had issues on my machine, when I used the TerraTec cards only,
that can be used without xruns at a passable latency.
I'm usually using self-build kernel-rt in the past 2.6.x and today 3.x.
Nothing does share the IRQ with a sound card.
I also tried to tune the machine by:
### Bluetooth
service bluetooth stop
### TerraTec EWX 24/96
modprobe -r snd_ice1712
### Others
modprobe -r firewire-ohci
modprobe -r firewire_core
service cups stop
modprobe -r ppdev # parallel port
modprobe -r lp # printer
### Unbinding devices
echo -n "0000:00:13.2" > /sys/bus/pci/drivers/ohci_hcd/unbind
echo -n "0000:00:13.4" > /sys/bus/pci/drivers/ohci_hcd/unbind
This doesn't improve the situation. However, xruns were not the issues,
IIRC Muse usually freeze and is completely unusable here. Architecture
of the Linux usually is 64-bit, I don't know if I ever tried Muse on a
32-bit install. I'm using Jack2 only, first regarding to the alsarawmidi
switch, to get rid of MIDI hardware jitter and because Jack1 never
worked on this Computer and also not on my first PC, an ASRock K7VT2
with an 800 MHz single core, 32-bit Athlon. All versions of Jack1 I
tested, not only the version that was known to do this, disconnected
clients.
Onboard audio always is disabled, Northbridge AMD 690G, Southbridge ATI
SB600, 1 * PCI Express x16, 1 * PCI Express x1, 2 * PCI.
At the moment I'm booted to Arch Linux, the only installed audio
software at the moment are Jack2 and Simple Sysexxer and I've got no
time to test Muse right now. >= 22. March I might have some time to test
Muse. If I should forget to test Muse, at the end of this month or
during next month please ask me again.
Regards,
Ralf
IIRC Muse can mute individual clips, but Muse
never was
able to run on my machine. I tested it for different distros, in
different years.
Howdy, Ralf.
Can you give us an idea of why this might be?
Any clues at all, like choice of kernels, tweaks, RTIRQs etc.
Can you briefly describe the hardware involved?
I imagine you must run a pretty tight setup there.
Your experience with MusE is important to us.
We'd like to try to correct whatever the problem is, with your help. 
9 Mar
9 Mar
5:15 p.m.
New subject: Muse - Was: OT: Bitwig beta for Linux reviewed
On Fri, Mar 08, 2013 at 11:47:52PM +0100, Ralf Mardorf wrote:
The CPU always was and still is an AMD Athlon 64-bit
dual-core BE-2350
2.1 GHz.
...
I'm usually using self-build kernel-rt in the past 2.6.x and today 3.x.
FWIW I've never been able to get an -rt patched kernel to work with
a dual core CPU without xruns and lockups. I've had better results
with standard kernels with pre-emption enabled. I don't use MIDI and I
haven't tried recent -rt patches though, so treat that observation
accordingly.
I think I'd be more likely to blame things like nVidia graphics drivers
and non-standard kernels before making a sweeping criticism of Linux
sequencing software, but maybe that's just me.
John
6:10 p.m.
New subject: Muse - Was: OT: Bitwig beta for Linux reviewed
On Sat, 2013-03-09 at 12:28 +0000, John Rigg wrote:
On Fri, Mar 08, 2013 at 11:47:52PM +0100, Ralf Mardorf
wrote:
I don't blame Linux apps, I suspect that especially the PCIe slot
(chipset, mobo design) is less good. However, regarding to the issues
with Muse, yes, I suspect that it's the application. Ardour 2 and
Qtractor do run on my machine.
At the moment there's no difference between full preempt and preempt rt
kernels on my machine. It also doesn't make a (big) difference, what
graphics and what driver I use. At the moment it's the ATI with the
FLOSS radeon driver. In the past there often were differences when using
different graphic cards and drivers. In the past I needed to use the
kernel-rt, today I also can use the full preempt kernel.
Still maintained and used installs are Ubuntu and Ubuntu Studio Quantal
and Precise and at the moment I slowly set up a new Arch Linux, the
other Linux installs are not or seldom used:
$ grep menue /run/media/rocketmouse/q/boot/grub/grub.cfg
menuentry "FreeBSD"{
menuentry 'Ubuntu Quantal, kernel 3.6.5-rt14' {
menuentry 'Ubuntu Quantal, kernel 3.5.0-18-lowlatency
threadirqs' {
menuentry 'Ubuntu Quantal, kernel 3.5.0-18-lowlatency (recovery
mode)' {
menuentry 'Ubuntu Studio Quantal, Kernel 3.6.5-rt14' {
menuentry 'Ubuntu Studio Quantal, Kernel 3.5.0-18-lowlatency
threadirqs' {
menuentry 'Ubuntu Studio Precise, Kernel 3.0.30 threadirqs' {
menuentry 'Ubuntu Studio Precise, Kernel 3.2.0-23-lowlatency
threadirqs' {
menuentry 'AVlinux 5.0.3, Kernel 3.0.23-rt40' {
menuentry 'AVlinux 5.0.3, Kernel 3.0.23-avl-7-pae threadirqs' {
menuentry 'Edubuntu 10.10, Kernel 2.6.33.9-rt31' {
menuentry 'Ubuntu Studio Oz, Kernel 3.0.0-17-generic' {
menuentry 'Ubuntu Studio Oz, Kernel 3.0.0-20-generic' {
menuentry 'Arch Linux Rt' {
menuentry 'Arch Linux' {
menuentry 'Arch Linux Fallback' {
menuentry 'openSUSE 11.2, Kernel 2.6.31.6-rt19' {
The only stable DAW I ever had, was Edubuntu 10.10, I never had a stable
DAW before or after Edubuntu Maverick, unfortunately I can't use the
stable setup with my RME HDSPe AIO, since it wasn't supported that time.
I used Maverick with the TerraTec ICE1712 cards only.
To be continued ...
Ralf
The CPU always was and still is an AMD Athlon
64-bit dual-core BE-2350
2.1 GHz.
...
I'm usually using self-build kernel-rt in the past 2.6.x and today 3.x.
FWIW I've never been able to get an -rt patched kernel to work with
a dual core CPU without xruns and lockups. I've had better results
with standard kernels with pre-emption enabled. I don't use MIDI and I
haven't tried recent -rt patches though, so treat that observation
accordingly.
I think I'd be more likely to blame things like nVidia graphics drivers
and non-standard kernels [snip]
5:56 a.m.
New subject: OT: Bitwig beta for Linux reviewed
Giada plays fine in sync. So does lmms. Test it yourself. I don't think an
all-in-one sequencer needs to use jack transport.
As for muting individual clips, a little weird requirement, IMHO. In fl
studio you also can't mute individual clips and I don't ever remember
needing that in all the 15 years I've done music.
Bitwig looks like a normal sequencer, which looks like smth special only in
comparison to what we don't have on linux . I did not have YouTube blocked
and I saw the demo. It looks what you would expect from a project that was
done commercially, I see nothing that would suggest it is claimed it solves
'all the problems'. It solves many problems for ppl like me who just want
an all-in-one sequencer, where the project is saved not by scripts, but by
pressing one button.
So to me your criticism looks like pointing out the lack of some weird
feature you personally want and which none of the software I know on
windows even has, and concluding bitwig is a myth.
On Mar 9, 2013 12:32 AM, "Ralf Mardorf" <ralf.mardorf(a)alice-dsl.net>
wrote:
On Fri, 2013-03-08 at 22:14 +0300, Louigi Verona
wrote:
Ralf, what do you mean Linux can't do loop
and play? I have no problem
muting individual loops in kluppe or giada or sooperlooper.
Hi Louigi,
for Qtractor I e.g. experienced that when I play a part of a song as
loop, that hardware synth, software synth and audio after a few minutes
are completely out of sync, when using Qtractor. As we all know, jack
transport can't do loop play. Qtractor and Rosegarden can't mute
individual clips, it's only possible to mute tracks, perhaps it can be
automated, but for easily arranging a song it's better to be able to
mute and unmute clips by click. You can't see the difference between
clips with own data files and clips that share the data file with other
clips for Qtractor (for Cubase such clips are called "ghosts" and they
are shadowed). IIRC Muse can mute individual clips, but Muse never was
able to run on my machine. I tested it for different distros, in
different years.
The way recording is handled, when recording in loop play, is not that
manifold as for old proprietary sequencers.
However, we can use those FLOSS Linux apps, but just a few people can
test Bitwig.
Regards,
Ralf
@ the topic:
We already have some software that does run on Linux and I'm sceptic to
read that Bitwig should provide all kinds of features we are missing for
Linux at the moment or missing for any OS at the moment. A tester wrote
that there are technical issues, that VST and AU are supported and the
audio binding should be less good, than it should be for Ardour. Bitwig
should be an native Linux app, but seemingly it isn't.
Bitwig quasi should be what many people, including me, are waiting for.
But I don't trust those folks, they already made that much noise, I only
know from Gates, Apple and Zuckerberg, when they present something that
is ready for the market. I'm seemingly not the only one who is sceptic,
when taking a look at the graphic design of Bitwig.
_______________________________________________
Linux-audio-dev mailing list
Linux-audio-dev(a)lists.linuxaudio.org
http://lists.linuxaudio.org/listinfo/linux-audio-dev
5:04 p.m.
New subject: OT: Bitwig beta for Linux reviewed
On Sat, 2013-03-09 at 07:56 +0300, Louigi Verona wrote:
Giada plays fine in sync. So does lmms. Test it
yourself. I don't
think an all-in-one sequencer needs to use jack transport.
Correct, an all-in-one solution, sequencer + hard disk recorder doesn't
need jack-transport, but so I can't use Qtractor + Ardour 2 together.
Ardor 3 doesn't fit to my needs. I never tested Giada, it doesn't look
very promising, but I tested LMMS. LMMS is completely unusable for my
needs. Personally I don't know any musician using such software on any
OS, I know this kind of thing from techno consumers, who play a little
bit with their laptops.
As for muting individual clips, a little weird
requirement, IMHO. In
fl studio you also can't mute individual clips and I don't ever
remember needing that in all the 15 years I've done music.
It's a very important feature available by all Cubase versions for the
Atari (and for Windows) I know.
Bitwig looks like a normal sequencer, which looks like
smth special
only in comparison to what we don't have on linux . I did not have
YouTube blocked and I saw the demo. It looks what you would expect
from a project that was done commercially, I see nothing that would
suggest it is claimed it solves 'all the problems'. It solves many
problems for ppl like me who just want an all-in-one sequencer, where
the project is saved not by scripts, but by pressing one button.
Did you test energyXT? I never tested it, but years ago I heard that
people like it. Perhaps it already does provide what you want.
So to me your criticism looks like pointing out the
lack of some weird
feature you personally want and which none of the software I know on
windows even has, and concluding bitwig is a myth.
No, regarding to the mute-able tracks, Bitwig perhaps does provide them.
I'm missing it for the FLOSS Linux software I'm using.
I'm just sceptic about the hype of Bitwig. At the moment it's not
available and we read the report, it has got technical issues. VST and
AU seems to be the dominating plugin protocols. What is about LADSPA and
DSSI?
I don't understand the Jack related thing. Isn't it possible to use the
ALSA backend? The author has written about a different audio binding,
than Ardour does use.
Do you believe that they will fix all bugs soon? Do you believe that you
can sync it with another Bitwig perfectly by a network? Don't you want
to have LADSPA and DSSI support? I don't need VST and AU support, I'm
only using LV2, LADSPA and DSSI plugins.
I suspect you prefer a studio in the box, instead of hardware equipment?
There is so much talk about plugins, but I'm missing features to control
hardware gear with a sequencer. With the Atari I edited sounds by SysEx
editors included to Cubase in real-time, for the Roland MT-32 (not a
toy, if you can use it as real pseudo analog synth) and Oberheim
Matrix-1000.
As an Ubuntu and Arch user, I'm also very sceptic about the idea to
provide Ubuntu packages or an USB stick solution only. On Ubuntu Studio
lists all kinds of rumors about Ubuntu's future are discussed. At the
moment the situation for Ubuntu already is borderline.
Regards,
Ralf
7:40 p.m.
New subject: OT: Bitwig beta for Linux reviewed
LMMS can be used to make any type of music, I do not see anything in the
software that limits it to either techno or just playing around. I have
made several genres with it and people like those tunes and don't find them
to be "just playing around". LMMS has got automation of any parameter,
great piano roll. It's only serious problem is that it supports only LADSPA
plugins and doing music without being able to add more sophisticated things
like good reverb and other effects is uninspiring.
You might not like UI, sure, but please don't say that LMMS (or FL Studio
for that matter) is only good for techno, because this is a ridiculous
accusation, really.
Giada is a dj tool. I mentioned it only to explain that loop sync is
possible on Linux easily.
I tried EnergyXT, I did not like it at all, very raw software, I am
surprised anyone dares to ask money for it. However, to be fair, I tried
the demo version only.
Will Bitwig be released? Will it be satisfactory? I don't know. But I just
object to you saying that there is any special hype and that people are
saying Bitwig will solve all problems.
On Mar 9, 2013 8:05 PM, "Ralf Mardorf" <ralf.mardorf(a)alice-dsl.net>
wrote:
On Sat, 2013-03-09 at 07:56 +0300, Louigi Verona
wrote:
Giada plays fine in sync. So does lmms. Test it
yourself. I don't
think an all-in-one sequencer needs to use jack transport.
Correct, an all-in-one solution, sequencer + hard disk recorder doesn't
need jack-transport, but so I can't use Qtractor + Ardour 2 together.
Ardor 3 doesn't fit to my needs. I never tested Giada, it doesn't look
very promising, but I tested LMMS. LMMS is completely unusable for my
needs. Personally I don't know any musician using such software on any
OS, I know this kind of thing from techno consumers, who play a little
bit with their laptops.
As for muting individual clips, a little weird
requirement, IMHO. In
fl studio you also can't mute individual clips and I don't ever
remember needing that in all the 15 years I've done music.
It's a very important feature available by all Cubase versions for the
Atari (and for Windows) I know.
Bitwig looks like a normal sequencer, which looks
like smth special
only in comparison to what we don't have on linux . I did not have
YouTube blocked and I saw the demo. It looks what you would expect
from a project that was done commercially, I see nothing that would
suggest it is claimed it solves 'all the problems'. It solves many
problems for ppl like me who just want an all-in-one sequencer, where
the project is saved not by scripts, but by pressing one button.
Did you test energyXT? I never tested it, but years ago I heard that
people like it. Perhaps it already does provide what you want.
So to me your criticism looks like pointing out
the lack of some weird
feature you personally want and which none of the software I know on
windows even has, and concluding bitwig is a myth.
No, regarding to the mute-able tracks, Bitwig perhaps does provide them.
I'm missing it for the FLOSS Linux software I'm using.
I'm just sceptic about the hype of Bitwig. At the moment it's not
available and we read the report, it has got technical issues. VST and
AU seems to be the dominating plugin protocols. What is about LADSPA and
DSSI?
I don't understand the Jack related thing. Isn't it possible to use the
ALSA backend? The author has written about a different audio binding,
than Ardour does use.
Do you believe that they will fix all bugs soon? Do you believe that you
can sync it with another Bitwig perfectly by a network? Don't you want
to have LADSPA and DSSI support? I don't need VST and AU support, I'm
only using LV2, LADSPA and DSSI plugins.
I suspect you prefer a studio in the box, instead of hardware equipment?
There is so much talk about plugins, but I'm missing features to control
hardware gear with a sequencer. With the Atari I edited sounds by SysEx
editors included to Cubase in real-time, for the Roland MT-32 (not a
toy, if you can use it as real pseudo analog synth) and Oberheim
Matrix-1000.
As an Ubuntu and Arch user, I'm also very sceptic about the idea to
provide Ubuntu packages or an USB stick solution only. On Ubuntu Studio
lists all kinds of rumors about Ubuntu's future are discussed. At the
moment the situation for Ubuntu already is borderline.
Regards,
Ralf
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8:58 p.m.
New subject: OT: Bitwig beta for Linux reviewed
On Sat, 2013-03-09 at 21:40 +0300, Louigi Verona wrote:
LMMS can be used to make any type of music, I do not
see anything in
the software that limits it to either techno or just playing around. I
have made several genres with it and people like those tunes and don't
find them to be "just playing around". LMMS has got automation of any
parameter, great piano roll. It's only serious problem is that it
supports only LADSPA plugins and doing music without being able to add
more sophisticated things like good reverb and other effects is
uninspiring.
To make recordings such as your Dronings would be more work for me when
using software like LMMS, instead of software such as Qtractor and I
guess I'm not an exception.
They enforce a very unusual workflow. IMO there's a reason that
Rosegarden, Ardour, Qtractor, Cubase, Logic etc. pp. have another
design.
I'm still limited with IOs, because my RME card is bad supported by
Linux, but I already can loop in a reverb, so if it should be possible
to add external gear, I don't care about software reverbs. I only used
software reverbs, when I had no IOs to loop in a reverb.
It's possible to make "good" music with a spoon, but more pleasant to
play a grand piano instead of a spoon.
I tried EnergyXT, I did not like it at all, very raw
software, I am
surprised anyone dares to ask money for it. However, to be fair, I
tried the demo version only.
Until now I didn't test it myself, because I don't like demo versions.
Usually demo versions can't be used to make real "test" productions.
I'm
not interested to install a hacked version and I only knew one person
living far away, who used it and perhaps still does use it.
Other proprietary software doesn't need demo versions, because many
people do use it, it's not hard to get a chance to test such software,
but energyXT isn't Pro Tools or Steinberg, so I expect a full version
for test purpose.
Will Bitwig be released?
Resp. when will it be released and really provide all it's advantages
and how much will it be?
I guess that Ardour, Rosegarden, Qtrator and Muse are the workstations
that are interesting for me. When I was younger I made 24/7 music, today
I don't touch an instrument for month, so I'm not in a hurry. If I
should change my mind and become a musician again, I might use something
Microsoft based or no computer. While I prefer Qtractor and Ardour 2, I
don't exclude Ardour 3, Rosegarden and Muse, they are close to my needs
too.
Regards,
Ralf
10 Mar
10 Mar
7:46 a.m.
New subject: OT: Bitwig beta for Linux reviewed
I don't use LMMS to produce dronings. All-in-one sequencers are good for
grid-based music, sure. But grid-based music is not just techno, almost
every type of music except ambient is grid-based.
On Saturday, March 9, 2013, Ralf Mardorf <ralf.mardorf(a)alice-dsl.net> wrote:
On Sat, 2013-03-09 at 21:40 +0300, Louigi Verona
wrote:
--
Louigi Verona
http://www.louigiverona.ru/
LMMS can be used to make any type of music, I do
not see anything in
the software that limits it to either techno or just playing around. I
have made several genres with it and people like those tunes and don't
find them to be "just playing around". LMMS has got automation of any
parameter, great piano roll. It's only serious problem is that it
supports only LADSPA plugins and doing music without being able to add
more sophisticated things like good reverb and other effects is
uninspiring.
To make recordings such as your Dronings would be more work for me when
using software like LMMS, instead of software such as Qtractor and I
guess I'm not an exception.
They enforce a very unusual workflow. IMO there's a reason that
Rosegarden, Ardour, Qtractor, Cubase, Logic etc. pp. have another
design.
I'm still limited with IOs, because my RME card is bad supported by
Linux, but I already can loop in a reverb, so if it should be possible
to add external gear, I don't care about software reverbs. I only used
software reverbs, when I had no IOs to loop in a reverb.
It's possible to make "good" music with a spoon, but more pleasant to
play a grand piano instead of a spoon.
I tried EnergyXT, I did not like it at all, very
raw software, I am
surprised anyone dares to ask money for it. However, to be fair, I
tried the demo version only.
Until now I didn't test it myself, because I don't like demo versions.
Usually demo versions can't be used to make real "test" productions.
I'm
not interested to install a hacked version and I only knew one person
living far away, who used it and perhaps still does use it.
Other proprietary software doesn't need demo versions, because many
people do use it, it's not hard to get a chance to test such software,
but energyXT isn't Pro Tools or Steinberg, so I expect a full version
for test purpose.
Will Bitwig be released?
Resp. when will it be released and really provide all it's advantages
and how much will it be?
I guess that Ardour, Rosegarden, Qtrator and Muse are the workstations
that are interesting for me. When I was younger I made 24/7 music, today
I don't touch an instrument for month, so I'm not in a hurry. If I
should change my mind and become a musician again, I might use something
Microsoft based or no computer. While I prefer Qtractor and Ardour 2, I
don't exclude Ardour 3, Rosegarden and Muse, they are close to my needs
too.
Regards,
Ralf
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12:36 p.m.
New subject: OT: Bitwig beta for Linux reviewed
Le Sat, 09 Mar 2013 11:23:39 +0100,
Ralf Mardorf <ralf.mardorf(a)alice-dsl.net> a écrit :
As an Ubuntu and Arch user, I'm also very sceptic
about the idea to
provide Ubuntu packages or an USB stick solution only. On Ubuntu
Studio lists all kinds of rumors about Ubuntu's future are discussed.
At the moment the situation for Ubuntu already is borderline.
Regards,
Ralf
And what about a gentoo package ?
...
Best,
Dominique
--
"We have the heroes we deserve."
12:56 p.m.
New subject: OT: Bitwig beta for Linux reviewed
On Sun, 2013-03-10 at 12:35 +0100, Dominique Michel wrote:
Le Sat, 09 Mar 2013 11:23:39 +0100,
Ralf Mardorf <ralf.mardorf(a)alice-dsl.net> a écrit :
Dominique, this would be good. I'm not using it myself, but Gentoo is a
good alternative to Ubuntu. I guess Gentoo is similar as Arch. I haven't
seen that they provide or will provide a Gentoo source.
As an Ubuntu and Arch user, I'm also very
sceptic about the idea to
provide Ubuntu packages or an USB stick solution only. On Ubuntu
Studio lists all kinds of rumors about Ubuntu's future are discussed.
At the moment the situation for Ubuntu already is borderline.
Regards,
Ralf
And what about a gentoo package ?
3 p.m.
New subject: OT: Bitwig beta for Linux reviewed
Le Sun, 10 Mar 2013 12:56:39 +0100,
Ralf Mardorf <ralf.mardorf(a)alice-dsl.net> a écrit :
On Sun, 2013-03-10 at 12:35 +0100, Dominique Michel
wrote:
It is enough if they provide a source tarball. Beside the sources, all
that gentoo need is a script called ebuild. This ebuild is used by
portage to download, decompress and compile the sources, as well
than to install the program. I guess than, like with most proprietary
software, we will never get the sources... Unfortunately, software like
the ati and nvidia drivers are exceptions, not the rule, with
proprietary software.
Using gentoo was, for me, the result of many years with GNU/Linux. I
try/used many other distributions, and if they are easier to install,
a gentoo successful install will work and will be definitely easier
to manage on the long run, especially when, like many of us, I am using
multiple repositories (overlays for gentoo).
That said, I never try arch. What I know is that arch do have an
outstanding wiki.
The main gentoo disadvantage is that compiling every thing can be very
stressing for the hardware. You will need good quality hdd and RAM on
the long run. Also, using a rt kernel with portage is not recommended,
this can lead to very strange bugs. This is why I am using the
gentoo-sources kernel with rt enabled trough cgroups. An alternative is
to use one kernel with portage and the rt kernel for audio work.
Dominique
--
"We have the heroes we deserve."
Le Sat, 09 Mar 2013 11:23:39 +0100,
Ralf Mardorf <ralf.mardorf(a)alice-dsl.net> a écrit :
Dominique, this would be good. I'm not using it myself, but Gentoo is
a good alternative to Ubuntu. I guess Gentoo is similar as Arch. I
haven't seen that they provide or will provide a Gentoo source. As an Ubuntu and Arch user, I'm also very
sceptic about the idea
to provide Ubuntu packages or an USB stick solution only. On
Ubuntu Studio lists all kinds of rumors about Ubuntu's future are
discussed. At the moment the situation for Ubuntu already is
borderline.
Regards,
Ralf
And what about a gentoo package ?
6:57 p.m.
New subject: OT: Bitwig beta for Linux reviewed
On Sun, 2013-03-10 at 15:00 +0100, Dominique Michel wrote:
The main gentoo disadvantage is that compiling every
thing can be very
stressing for the hardware. You will need good quality hdd and RAM on
the long run. Also, using a rt kernel with portage is not recommended,
this can lead to very strange bugs. This is why I am using the
gentoo-sources kernel with rt enabled trough cgroups. An alternative
is to use one kernel with portage and the rt kernel for audio work.
That's interesting.
IMO it's often needed to compile at least audio software, because
packages of major distributions often are buggy. Providing bad versions
of software or the package maintainers add bugs, I guess we all remember
the libjack issues and IMO we still have similar issues nowadays.
Arch is a mix of packages and something comparable to ebuilds, the most
pleasant workflow to set up a Linux for my taste. I set up FreeBSD by
only using ports, IOW I compiled everything on my machine, something
that's too time consuming.
On Sun, 2013-03-10 at 16:05 +0100, William Light wrote:
I own an XT license and used it before Renoise became
available. XT
never supported LADSPA, just VST, and it was some of the least stable
software I'd ever used. It was fine at first, but it's got a nasty
case
of bit-rot. Most of my songs I've made in XT make the current build
segfault. 32-bit only, never any 64-bit binaries. It's as good as
abandonware at this point.
Shame, really. Some good ideas in that DAW.
Perhaps it's written for Windows?
Regards,
Ralf
4:05 p.m.
New subject: OT: Bitwig beta for Linux reviewed
on Sat, Mar 09, 2013 at 11:23:39AM +0100, Ralf Mardorf wrote:
On Sat, 2013-03-09 at 07:56 +0300, Louigi Verona
wrote:
I own an XT license and used it before Renoise became available. XT
never supported LADSPA, just VST, and it was some of the least stable
software I'd ever used. It was fine at first, but it's got a nasty case
of bit-rot. Most of my songs I've made in XT make the current build
segfault. 32-bit only, never any 64-bit binaries. It's as good as
abandonware at this point.
Shame, really. Some good ideas in that DAW.
Giada plays fine in sync. So does lmms. Test it
yourself. I don't
think an all-in-one sequencer needs to use jack transport.
Correct, an all-in-one solution, sequencer + hard disk recorder doesn't
need jack-transport, but so I can't use Qtractor + Ardour 2 together.
Ardor 3 doesn't fit to my needs. I never tested Giada, it doesn't look
very promising, but I tested LMMS. LMMS is completely unusable for my
needs. Personally I don't know any musician using such software on any
OS, I know this kind of thing from techno consumers, who play a little
bit with their laptops.
As for muting individual clips, a little weird
requirement, IMHO. In
fl studio you also can't mute individual clips and I don't ever
remember needing that in all the 15 years I've done music.
It's a very important feature available by all Cubase versions for the
Atari (and for Windows) I know.
Bitwig looks like a normal sequencer, which looks
like smth special
only in comparison to what we don't have on linux . I did not have
YouTube blocked and I saw the demo. It looks what you would expect
from a project that was done commercially, I see nothing that would
suggest it is claimed it solves 'all the problems'. It solves many
problems for ppl like me who just want an all-in-one sequencer, where
the project is saved not by scripts, but by pressing one button.
Did you test energyXT? I never tested it, but years ago I heard that
people like it. Perhaps it already does provide what you want. So to me your
criticism looks like pointing out the lack of some weird
feature you personally want and which none of the software I know on
windows even has, and concluding bitwig is a myth.
No, regarding to the mute-able tracks, Bitwig perhaps does provide them.
I'm missing it for the FLOSS Linux software I'm using.
I'm just sceptic about the hype of Bitwig. At the moment it's not
available and we read the report, it has got technical issues. VST and
AU seems to be the dominating plugin protocols. What is about LADSPA and
DSSI?
I don't understand the Jack related thing. Isn't it possible to use the
ALSA backend? The author has written about a different audio binding,
than Ardour does use.
Do you believe that they will fix all bugs soon? Do you believe that you
can sync it with another Bitwig perfectly by a network? Don't you want
to have LADSPA and DSSI support? I don't need VST and AU support, I'm
only using LV2, LADSPA and DSSI plugins.
I suspect you prefer a studio in the box, instead of hardware equipment?
There is so much talk about plugins, but I'm missing features to control
hardware gear with a sequencer. With the Atari I edited sounds by SysEx
editors included to Cubase in real-time, for the Roland MT-32 (not a
toy, if you can use it as real pseudo analog synth) and Oberheim
Matrix-1000.
As an Ubuntu and Arch user, I'm also very sceptic about the idea to
provide Ubuntu packages or an USB stick solution only. On Ubuntu Studio
lists all kinds of rumors about Ubuntu's future are discussed. At the
moment the situation for Ubuntu already is borderline.
Regards,
Ralf
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8 Mar
8 Mar
8:58 a.m.
On Wed, 2013-03-06 at 07:05 -0500, Dave Phillips wrote:
Greetings,
By Hartmut Noack:
http://www.linux-community.de/Internal/Artikel/Print-Artikel/LinuxUser/2013…
Excellent review, in German only, with some enticing screenshots.
Hi :)
I'm still missing specific information about Bigwig, for me there's
still to much hype. It's not released, just a few people can test it,
but the rumors already make it to one of the best apps for audio
production, seemingly ignoring issues, that are still present.
There are issues, but the issues aren't reported [1] or they are
trivialised [2]. I wonder if a bought Bitwig can be used on or at least
be tested on different Linux installs or if it's only allowed to install
it to one Linux and once the distro version is outdated, resp. not
supported anymore, the user needs top pay for a new Bitwig, resp. use
the bought version with this outdated Linux. Installation via alien? How
to install it e.g. to an Arch Linux? making Ubuntu the first choice for
audio is reckless. I'm a Ubuntu (and Arch) user myself.
I know that loop-play doesn't work good on Linux and that muting
individual clips isn't supported by most (perhaps all) Linux apps, but
on other OS those features and others are available, IOW there are
already proved, better ways to handle the workflow than Bitwig's scene
method.[3]
Are most LADSPA and DSSI plugins available as VST or AU? [4] Resp. are
_all_ Linux plugin formats supported by bitwig? If not, I wonder why
there are that many claims, that bitwig is a native Linux pro-audio app.
And why does it use something that makes audio binding less good than
it's done by the FLOSS Linux apps [2]?
This IMO is another report that hypes this app, while it ignores bugs.
IIUC the audio binding of Ardour and Qtractor are better than Bitwigs
one. The reason for this is unclear for me, since it does use Jack.
"qtractor-0.5.7" -
http://qtractor.sourceforge.net/qtractor-index.html#Downloads
AFAIK it's planned that Qtractor version 1 has more features and less
bugs too. However Qtractor is one of the FLOSS Linux apps that are
already available and that support all native Linux plugin formats.
I wonder how this test version of Bitwig, including current bugs, does
compare to Qtractor, Ardour 3, Rosegaden, _energyXT_ etc..
Regards,
Ralf
[1]
"Auf im Test aufgetauchte technische Probleme gehen wir im Folgenden
nicht näher ein: So gut wie alle diese Fehler beruhen auf dem immer noch
frühen Entwicklungsstadium und werden in der veröffentlichten Version
von Bitwig Studio beseitigt."
[2]
"Ähnlich wie PulseAudio setzt es ganz auf Kompatibilität mit allem und
jedem, weniger auf kompromisslose Leistung.
Dennoch funktioniert im Test auch die Audio-Anbindung von Bitwig nicht
spürbar schlechter als die nativer Jack-Anwendungen wie etwa Ardour3 [3]
auf dem gleichen System."
[3]
"Die Software lenkt fast gar nicht von der Konzentration auf die Musik
ab. Das ist bei traditionellen Multi-Track-Editoren spürbar anders:
Besonders wenn man viele verschiedene Takes einspielen und gleichzeitig
mit anderen neu kombinieren möchte, kann dort das Verhältnis von Musik
und Programmbedienung schnell die 50:50-Marke unterschreiten."
[4]
"Jede zeitgemäße DAW unterstützt Plugins, fast alle davon gibt es in den
Formaten VST und AU"
4230
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linux-audio-dev@lists.linuxaudio.org
23 comments
11 participants
participants (11)
-
Adrian Knoth -
Dave Phillips -
Dominique Michel -
Harry van Haaren -
John Rigg -
Louigi Verona -
Paul Davis -
Ralf Mardorf -
Thijs van severen -
Tim E. Real -
William Light