Linux-audio-user January 2003

linux-audio-user@lists.linuxaudio.org

119 participants
142 discussions

[linux-audio-user] Bundled reply of you guess what :)

by Roel de Wit

Hi, > The Nyquist frequency is equal to (sample rate / 2). > Logically, this is because the A/D converter needs at > least 2 samples to detect 1 cycle at the Nyquist > frequency. Frequencies higher then the Nyquist will > actually appear as lower frequencies to the A/D > converter and is called aliasing. Normally, A/D > converts run the signal through a highpass filter > first to avoid these problems. > I guess the interesting problem is aliasing. Right? Yes but did you ever actually here problems at 48 Khz yourself ?? I didn't.. The sounds for the piano where sampled at 48 Khz but the Audigy 2 which was used for this (not the best ADC arround) internally processes the input sound at 192 or 96 Khz and probably downsamples it in hardware with anti-aliasing (24 bit accuracy I think). Anyhow theoretically there might be a problem but practically I've never encountered it. > Please do not think you need to change ANYTHING about your samples to > sound like Bardstown. Every piano sounds different, so every library will > sound different, so every mp3 will sound different. I know of many game > developers and people writing scores for TV and movies that would seem to > disagree with your opinion, but we're all entitled. Right? ;-) If I would change something it would be in an additional soundfont (that's if the samples themself are changed) for the Audigy (2) initially. Regarding 44.1 Khz samples, we can downsample with anti-aliasing during the installation process if needed.. When not changing the sampled themself changes can be made in realtime in hardware/software with filters and EQ settings. I agree that every piano sounds different.. Even if you bought two the same acoustic instruments the sound is likely to be slightly different (hearable). What you would prefer when you would buy a piano like Grandest Piano if it offered soundbank in multiple formats ? One installer that installs all formats in one go and might write 1.5 gig of soundbanks or more to your harddisk or.... One data file for which somebody has to pay and a lot of free downloadable installers for each format ? I'm asking since we can't make an installer with the current installation system which allows you to install in several formats since we rely on a 'patching' system (like DeltaX under Linux) for part of the installation proces.. If a person would select multiple formats we'll need a lot of patchfiles to cope with this. > I disagree that the Bosey is 'filtered' or 'dull', but I do agree that it > is not as bright as your library. Don't get fooled though, and listen to > what others say. I think there is no right answer here, like there is no > right piano. People tend to get blind because a piano is lot's of Mb/Gb, read some propaganda about a soundbank (e.g. an multivelocity sampled, multilayer, 127 realistic velocity levels using system XXX for obtaining the YYY acoustic realism effect blah blah..).. Just read the text on www.studioax.com and you'll see what I mean. > From what I can hear, you are making great progress, especially for a > soundfont in less than 200MB. (Or whatever it ends up being.) I'd suggest > you do your best work and make the library sound as much like the original > piano you sampled as possible. There will be a 220 MB version at maximum (initially) and several smaller versions down to 40 MB (only one sampled velocity layer) for maximum compatibillity with any system.. I'm currently looking at Halion and EXS for destination formats.. From what I saw I think that EXS is no longer available for Windows.. Does anybody know if this is correct... Also when anybody on this list would buy Grandest Piano, would you use it under Linux or Windows ? If you want to use it under Linux which softsynths do you think would be good candidates ? I can't promise I'll support any of them initially but there might be free update patches (or free downloadable installers if we go for the data file + installer). > In real life the Bosey doesn't sound like the German Steinway, which > doesn't like the American Steinway, which doesn't sound like the Young > Chang, which doesn't sound like the Yamaha, which doesn't sound at all like > the Baldwin that Bruce Hornsby plays. Why should your library of a sampled > Yamaha sound like Kips Bosey? I don't think so! Not at all! It doesn't have to sound like a Yamaha even.. As long as it sounds like a piano.. If there should be variations which should allow you to easily switch between several types of piano while using the same soundbank that's only a pro. > If you want to hear a really dark piano, go to digital shootout and > listen to any of the Malmsjo's. They are very dark, and yet there are people > that love them. This is the way that piano sounds in real life. I think they > work for certain types of music. Once v0.2 is complete, which I hope will be the last beta containing only the biggest version of the piano I'll look into adding variation soundbanks. > I think your samples will work well also. Just keep up the good work and > listen to lots of libraries. If pointing you or others towards sites like > the Digital Piano Shootout helps, then great. If not, don't worry about it. It surely helps.. It basically allows me to listen to several types of pianos (whether I like them or not) and see if it's possible to make variations similar to well known pianos.. Not that these would sound exactly like them but it allows for pianos with different types of sound. --- Roel / Utopia Sound Division http://www.utopiasd.com

21 years, 3 months

[linux-audio-user] Pianotest1 recording as requested by Mark and answers to questions by others.

by Roel de Wit

Hi, I've uploaded the MP3 recording of this MIDI file to http://project-portability.foad.nl/mp3/pianotest1.mp3 Note though that it was sampled from Grandest Piano beta v0.1 and thus will not neccesarily represent the v1.0 release of the piano. Next week two new sample layers will be added and the amount of velocity layers will be increased to 127 (which will fully replace the current not so perfect ones). Also the release values of each note (or layer.. not sure yet) will be adapted.. I'll provide the website with a recording from v1.0 when it arrives so I prefer to keep this recording low profile. The recording was made without any reverb active or any post-processing so that it shows the actual samples the best way. Regarding 16 bit vs 24 bit.. I personally don't see the use of 24 bit samples too much yet. When mixing them is concerned the more bits the better. Regading looping etc.. The samples are all unlooped with a maximum of 16 seconds (which is often used). > Yeah, but what is a tiMIDIty version, explicitly? If you want to > please the Linux community, just send us 88 (more?) samples, one for > each key, and chuck the looping. Just let them all ring out till > silence. Better yet, 4-5 samples for each key at different striking > pressures would be great. Don't worry about how or what software will > sort this all out, we'll figure out something. With all the sampled velocity layers and huge amount of filtered velocity layers one soundfont won't simply work on any 'claimed' soundfont compatible softsynth or device. E.g. LiveSynth Pro a very good SF2 softsynth can't handle the piano correctly (yet). Our Utopia Live! soundfont (GM/GS) can't be played back (or even loaded) on anything else than SB Live!/Audigy hardware. It's the main drawback of 'complicated' soundfonts.. I have all the velocity layers sampled at 88 notes at my harddisk but the Audigy is stuck at around 330 MB (maximum loadable soundfont size under Windows 2000/XP). That's why I choose for around 25-28 samples per velocity layer. The size of the full 88 key sampled piano with 5 sampled velocity layers would be at least 800 MB assuming I'd stick to 48 Khz stereo samples.. It might be done in the future, but not now, unless there is a demand for it. I don't think the difference would be noticable too much.. I'm willing to add around 3 samples to each layer if the beta testers think this is needed.. > A good idea would be to double all of these samples, one recorded > with the sustain pedal open, and one closed. This would allow the > creation of the interactive effect between the strings which is > so noticeably lost in most sample sets. This makes the set too > large you say? Not even. I wouldn't sweat if it was a couple of That would mean that there would be 3 instruments (MIDI wise) which a composer would have to switch between.. I'm not sure if this is usefull. > GIG even. Hey, it's only one DVD. Lets start putting today's machines' > capabilities to good use. In fact, these samples should be AIFF, WAV, > or raw, 96k/24bit, mastered digitally with mics and equipment that can > register frequencies approaching the nyquist. That way, when we lower > notes an octave or two for effect, we will still have high end sizzle. Try to explain to me what the use is of 96 Khz samples ? It's just marketing nothing more.. 48 Khz makes it possible to represent up to 24 Khz of sampled frequencies, far about what you can hear. More important is that the device or softsynth used mixes at higher bitrates and that the DACs are of high quality (unless you render directly to a .WAV/whatever file). > Yeah, make that, and I would buy it. $20.00 - $30.00 say. As long as > there were no restrictions through licensing, other than, of course, on > the resale of the package as a sample set. No restrictions, other than you are not allowed to distribute any part of what's in the package that will be sold. --- Roel / Utopia Sound Division http://www.utopiasd.com

21 years, 3 months

[linux-audio-user] No sound and no ability to input into Muse

by linuxmedia4＠netscape.net

I've been working with Muse and have encounterd the following: I loaded a midi file that plays on every midi player/sequencer I've used. And I also did the "quick start" But I couldn't get any sound out of it and it didn't seem to input any notes from my midi keyboard. I have kaconnect set like this: External MIDI 0 ---> Emu10K1 Wave Table ---> Muse Sequencer Muse Sequencer ---> Emu10K Wave Table I was unable to load any instruments in the track info window. It just shows ---> ??? I tried all the different "Song Types". I'm too new at this to know what "NO" "GM" "GS" and "XG" are so I tried each one and it didn't seem to have any affect. I'm looking forward to trying out Muse. Any help would be appreciated... Rocco __________________________________________________________________ The NEW Netscape 7.0 browser is now available. Upgrade now! http://channels.netscape.com/ns/browsers/download.jsp Get your own FREE, personal Netscape Mail account today at http://webmail.netscape.com/

21 years, 3 months

[linux-audio-user] Piano feedback, again bundled

by Roel de Wit

Hi, > I think this is quite a good start! The upper registers, above middle > C, are the best to my ears. They sound quite open and natural. I beleive > that this part would be easy to mix and would come through just great on > pop music. > I think that below middle C, or maybe even an octave further, there > isn't quite the power that I hear in the Bardstown (link follows - look > for Piano Shoot Out) or the Post Bosendorfer samples on the previous > link, but those are 9 foot pianos that costs about $200K U.S. It's got > the largest sound around. I'll listen to the MP3s and will see if I can't add an additional piano which sounds more like that Bardstown. Only if it's a dry recording though since reverb and other tweaks can do a lot to change the sound of a piano. > What piano did you sample by the way?? It was a Yamaha model.. > I certainly liked yours more than a couple that I've purchased and > look forward to hearing your final product. Just check http://project-portability.foad.nl once in a few weeks to check on the progress.. Any wishes of changes or variations to the piano are welcome. > It was, BTW, a bit hard, as I suggested earlier, to compare yours > with the others because of your choice to use 48K instead of 44.1K. This > will make it a bit more difficult for people to use your library at the > same time that they use a tool like GigaSampler, but 48K people need a > great piano also! Go for it! I don't see a real problem here. The main reason for it is that the Audigy deals with 48 Khz samples better than with 44 Khz samples. Basically a 44 Khz version could be made in 10 minutes though. The real difference is in the mixing of different hardware and softsynths IMHO. I've not played other digitised 'professional' pianos (other than GP One which I don't consider to be that good).. Point is that I don't want to be influenced by other peoples result and thus trying to avoid mistakes that others might have made while trying to gain realism. > > Try to explain to me what the use is of 96 Khz samples ? It's just > > marketing nothing more.. 48 Khz makes it possible to represent up to > > 24 Khz of sampled frequencies, far about what you can hear. > Ok, I'll have a go :-) > If you sample at 48Khz you need to filter out everything above 24Khz in > order to avoid alias noise. First of all this is not *really* possibkle, > filters don't block thay damp. Secondly a filter steep enough to let > ninimal amounts of energy through above 24Khz will be distorting the > upper part of the frequency range.Now if you sample at 96Khz the story > is the same, but not you have an extra octave to filter smoothly. > Another part of the story is that although a 48Khz sample can represent > frequencies upto 24Khz, the representation of the higher frequencies not > accurately describing the intensity. Let's put it this way.. Do you think a CD sounds bad ? I think the average person can't hear much about 18 Khz (could be 20 Khz though).. So unless you are a sampler yourself you probably won't notice. I certainly won't go above 48 Khz since bigger is not always better.. Of course a lot depends on what sampler was used to capture the sound. 44 Khz could be an option but I'll have to have a look at the softsynths and hardware Grandest Piano will eventuelly be aimed at. --- Roel / Utopia Sound Division http://www.utopiasd.com

21 years, 3 months

[linux-audio-user] Regarding Bardstown

by Roel de Wit

Hi, I listened to some of the MP3 recordings on that website.. In my ears it's simply heavily filtered (very dull) and reverberated while lower velocities don't sound realistic to me.. Just a personal oppinion.. Bwaltz.mp3 also seems to have some polyphony issues or at least some strange note-cuttoffs..I didn't listen to all of the recordings though. Anyhow I'll try to make a more bassy version of Grandest Piano as an option together with Jazz, Pop etc. versions. --- Roel / Utopia Sound Division http://www.utopiasd.com

21 years, 3 months

[Fwd: Re: [linux-audio-user] Why we need graphic designers]

by iriXx

> Hi, > > This stuff is done by bypassing the toolkit, they tend not to support > bitmaps. ahhh.... thanks... now its beginning to make sense :) > > There are some example bits I'm using here: > http://inanna.ecs.soton.ac.uk/~swh/pixmaps/ > > But basicly any alpha blended image will work. The UI is made up by > compositing the images much like you would in gimp or photoshop. Which is > how I test them actually, just hiding and revealing layers to check the > transitions look OK. ahhhh.... right :)... > > Sliders are a bit odd cos there done with a piece of image for the part > the slider moves over, the two ends and the slidy part as seperate images, > but it doesn't have to be done that way. I'm sure people will be able to > write UI code for anything you happen to come up with. cool :) actually im used to doing sliders that way in Flash - i've done a bit of Flash coding as you've probably seen by the mini-mixer thing in my incomplete website interface! ;-)... theres no sound as yet on that page, the idea was that you could load sounds and the mixer would function, but i never got quite that far.... still to do! if i keep things in layers, i'd be able to draw up a slider and then slice it up into the sections you need.... > > If you could produce some widgets that look better than my hamfisted > gimpings then that would be fantastic. I copied things around my studio > because I'm lazy and can't draw :) hey, they dont look at all bad though! i've grabbed a copy of your code for swh (only just reinstalling mandrake on my laptop so i've gotta recompile everything!) i'll have a look at them and have a go... the principle from what i see is pretty straightforward - and i like your approach with the pixmaps too, the metal-look background seems to be an essential thesedays! i'll have a go maybe doing some pixmaps and post them up :)... i'll need a little time tho, i've not been well and book deadlines are looming in front of me :-/.... maybe i can come up with something on the weekend :) bw m~ -- iriXx www.iriXx.org copyleft: creativity, technology and freedom? info(a)copyleftmedia.org.uk www.copyleftmedia.org.uk _ ( ) ascii ribbon against html email X / \ cat /dev/sda1 > /dev/dsp *** stopping make sense ***

21 years, 3 months

[linux-audio-user] Answers to Grandest Piano feedback collected in one message (again)

by Roel de Wit

Hi, > I listened to the 5Schumann after adding reverb. Then I listened to recordings > I've made of of some concert grands: Boesendorfer, Chickering, Erard and > Steinway. Then went back to yours. They all sound different. Yours is > a perfectly acceptable sound, but maybe a little more different. It is > the only acceptable piano simulation I've heard. > I'm using an Audigy1 card in Linux. I couldn't get a Freebsd driver for it. The only thing that's currently available is a DAC/ADC based driver from what I now.. The same coulds for the Audigy 2 since this week. If you like any recordings to be made from a MIDI file in your posession just email it (this is an offer to everybody on this list).. Any feedback on where the piano flaws is welcome.. > > Note though that it was sampled from Grandest Piano beta v0.1 and thus will > > not neccesarily represent the v1.0 release of the piano. Next week two new > > sample layers will be added and the amount of velocity layers will be > > increased to 127 (which will fully replace the current not so perfect ones). > I'm not really a master of piano samples and synths, but let me say - > the test you've posted sounds really good. I like the way the samples > sound - they have a very unprocessed sound. It lets the piano come > through. If I were using the sample set, it would allow me to apply the > effects I needed without impeding that. That's the reason for the dry sound.. Additional 'performance' presets will be included with reverb and settings for different types of music but the dry version is the most important IMHO. --- Roel / Utopia Sound Division http://www.utopiasd.com

21 years, 3 months

[linux-audio-user] Is there interrest in a (near) perfect piano for tiMIDIty for composing music ?

by Roel de Wit

Hi, > The samples are unlooped and some go as many as 40 seconds, I believe. > This library is pretty large, approaching 2GB, but it sure does sound good. > Not perfect, but very, very good. Well send me one of your favorite piano MIDI files and I'll make a recording for you to listen at.. So that you can compare to the current (in my eyes) not perfect beta version of Grandest Piano v0.1. Ever since I made 'digital instruments' (since 1995/1996) I've always tried making instruments as small as possible because in my oppinion this allows for the greatest amount of users to work with it. Since we usually price our products quite low compared to competition we are depended on large sales (uh, that's to pay the rent, food and university, not really much more these days). I agree that the larger a piano is the more likely it is that it sounds even better but 2 GB is hardly usable for the average person.. I'm not saying I won't release a full version using around 1.6 to 1.7 GB of samples, which are all the samples that were made for the piano but it certainly hasn't got much priority. To be honest I've thought about resampling the samples to a minimum usefull samplerate to further decrease the size (around 100 MB or less). The only thing that's stopping me is that we use oggvorbis compression (high quality) to store the instruments in the installer making it easy to download over 200 MB of soundfonts while only effectively having to download 15-40 MB for the installer. The current installer (still only windows based, linux installer can be done within a day if needed) is 40 MB.. I've also made a 6 MB installer in which I couldn't hear any different compared to the 40 MB installer so you might see the benefits of compression here.. If I would resample the samples to a lower frequency oggvorbis compression will be less effective and the quality of the samples would become lower because of this forcing us to ship out CDs instead of simple download accounts. > Bardstown has also delivered native 24-bit for Halion and EXS. I'll see if I can't borrow a friends copy of Halion or EXS (have to look around) and make a version of Grandest Piano for them too. If there are any other much used softsynths/samplers please tell me.. I've often only making instruments for friends as a hobby but never make music myself (I did play the piano 10 years ago though). If I find the time versions for most popular softsynths will be included in the installed (this won't take any extra space since we'll simply build the banks, again and again in one pass from the samples stored in oggvorbis format). > Some library guys are now doing 8 and 16 velocity layers. I've tried one, > but I didn't like it as much as the Bardstown. Cost - $199 U.S. Well Grandest Piano may not be as 'grand' in size as your piano is but it will certainly have a grand sound :) --- Roel / Utopia Sound Division http://www.utopiasd.com

21 years, 3 months

Re:[linux-audio-user] Pianotest1 recording as requested by Mark and answers to questions by others.

by Mark Knecht

<SNIP> I've uploaded the MP3 recording of this MIDI file to http://project-portability.foad.nl/mp3/pianotest1.mp3 Note though that it was sampled from Grandest Piano beta v0.1 and thus will not neccesarily represent the v1.0 release of the piano. <SNIP> Roel, I think this is quite a good start! The upper registers, above middle C, are the best to my ears. They sound quite open and natural. I beleive that this part would be easy to mix and would come through just great on pop music. I think that below middle C, or maybe even an octave further, there isn't quite the power that I hear in the Bardstown (link follows - look for Piano Shoot Out) or the Post Bosendorfer samples on the previous link, but those are 9 foot pianos that costs about $200K U.S. It's got the largest sound around. What piano did you sample by the way?? I certainly liked yours more than a couple that I've purchased and look forward to hearing your final product. It was, BTW, a bit hard, as I suggested earlier, to compare yours with the others because of your choice to use 48K instead of 44.1K. This will make it a bit more difficult for people to use your library at the same time that they use a tool like GigaSampler, but 48K people need a great piano also! Go for it! http://bardstownaudio.com/frames/mp3.html With best regards, Mark

21 years, 3 months

[linux-audio-user] speaking of wonderful GUis..

by iriXx

...there was this really cute DirectX plugin i used once... some vinyl thing, it was for giving a portishead-esque scratchy vinyl sound to things... had the typical 'retro' look GUI... but with a sweet little touch - on the corners of the panel were four divots, and the tooltip that appeared as you mouse over them said 'divots. these are very important for keeping the front panel on'. if you clicked on a divot, it would fall off and the panel would begin to come unhinged, until it was hanging by only one divot, then the panel would fall away and reveal the names of the people who coded it... and the animation finished by returning you to the screen as normal... it was very cute, i can't remember what it was called though... m~ -- iriXx www.iriXx.org copyleft: creativity, technology and freedom? info(a)copyleftmedia.org.uk www.copyleftmedia.org.uk _ ( ) ascii ribbon against html email X / \ cat /dev/sda1 > /dev/dsp *** stopping make sense ***

21 years, 3 months

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Linux-audio-user January 2003