1 Mar
2006
1 Mar
'06
3:24 p.m.
But, you are here talking on a list dedicated to
digital audio, where,
as a founding principle, we all agree on the fact that results drawn
from a computer's work are predictable
So, by definition, your bravely defended opinion is as much off-topic as
it can get
Dave,
Perhaps I mistook the meaning of 'Linux Audio User' - assuming that it
meant the list was just a community of Linux_Audio_Users to discuss pretty
much anything and everything of mutual interest.
(I have seen discussions on what music people like (not focused on 'digital
audio'), extremely prolonged threads on copyright, and other occasional
threads even further removed from 'digital audio', and no one seemed to
consider them inappropriate or OT.
I think my thread went down in flames because I made comments that people
just plain found offensive or took extreme exception to, not because it was
OT.
As you say, some comments I made appear to call into question basic
premises most of you take as absolutely fundamental, and were hence
unwelcome if not heretical.
I have no further interest in debating this issue here - in fact I never
did.
I wanted to discuss the issue of bit-depth and its importance to audio
fidelity, but my thread got hijacked by those who took exception to my
comments about digital degradation - (which itself was just an off-hand
comment on my part.)
If you're trolling, you do it well, because
I've just fed you. ;)
I don't do that - never my intention to raise such a ruckus.
I think it's all Carlo's fault.
He's so wild and crazy and spontaneous, he just made me feel like I could
speak with similar impunity about whatever I thought - however radical, and
be similarly open and spontaneous about my views.
I will henceforth try really hard to stick to an 'acceptable' range of
topics, though you've got me genuinely confused now about just what those
are.
This discussion is getting tiring, at least for me.
It got tiring for me quite a while back - I just have a tendency to go down
fighting. ;)
The only reason I've been reading all of it is
because I also am one of
the women on this list. As such, I understand that I can be biased in
this. I will try my best to express what I feel about this list.
Please note: I never raised gender as being the issue here - I am (now)
well aware that my ideas sound radical and provocative.
I also consider this list one of the more friendly and
helpfull lists
around. I've been here for a long time and have never taken things
personally
I commend you on your tolerance and wisdom - you doubtless have a thicker
skin than I.
Sometimes a little patience goes a long ways on
everbody's part. If I was
the target of ridicule for my own unpopular opinian I would try to be
polite about it for a while.
Actually, I thought I *was* showing enormous restraint and politeness in
response to the insults.
(The 'bad words' thread is different - we're just having fun there.)
I hope I got some of my own feelings across on this.
Thanks for your input - glad to know I'm not alone here. :)
If this disastrous thread demonstrates anything, I think it shows why
people like me do better on forums.
That way if a weird topic gets started, people can just avoid it like the
plague and focus on the ones that they find relevant.
It's harder on a list - regardless of all your suggestions about filters,
search functions and what not.
When I scan through a digest, I end up reading a little bit of everything
whether I want to or not.
I'll have to go back through the archives and find out what happened w/re
to that forum proposal.
(Dan's idea is sounding better and better - maybe I will start an
occultist's-audio-user list.) :D
I haven't
seen this at all on this list. I think it's one of the most
helpful and tolerant lists out there. But that's just my *perception*
of it...
Let me second this whole-heartedly. I came in here about 6 weeks back
looking for help, and got it in a clear, concise manner,
1 Mar
1 Mar
3:59 p.m.
Paul and others here have alread got me sold on the idea of Apogee
converters, but I just checked the prices on them - whooooo boy!!! - that
hurts.
At those prices, they damn well better be the best converters out there!
- M
7:26 p.m.
--- Maluvia <terakuma(a)imbris.net> wrote:
Paul and others here have alread got me sold on the
idea of Apogee
converters, but I just checked the prices on them -
whooooo boy!!! - that
hurts.
Many people recommend Apogee. I don't. How much profit
does your music generate (I don't actually want to
know)? If not enough to purchase Apogee many times
over then to hell with their over priced junk. Do
yourself a favor and purchase some advertising. Well,
that's what I do but of course I am clueless about
what anyone else should do. And I fully intend to
remain entirely clueless.
ron
At those prices, they damn well better be the best
converters out there!
- M
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com
4:46 p.m.
On Wed, Mar 01, 2006 at 12:24:26PM -0800, Maluvia wrote:
Your absolutely right - you're all a bunch of angels. :D
I'm the devil in the black dress. }:>
Carry on . . . . .
- Maluvia
I am called to comment, with what I would hope are
understanding and compassion.
We all live under superstitions. Someone who is a brilliant
musician has the strangest misconceptions regarding
themselves and personal relationships... let us say
about love.
Someone wise in the realm of relationships and communication
is woefully ignorant about electrical matters... cannot so
much as change a lightbulb.
So whenever we encounter what we believe to be ignorance in
an area we are knowledgeable, perhaps it stings inwardly
because of all the huge universes of our own darkness that
surround the particular oasis of illumination at which
we water (to mix metaphors.)
At any rate, encountering what one believes to be emphatic
ignorance often leads to strong reactions.
On the subject of the direction of signals in cables, I
think I can offer to put the issue to rest by reminding
all parties that audio signals from a microphone or to a
loudspeaker are carried by the AC (alternating current)
component of electron movement. Thus the direction of the
electric current reverses many thousands of times each
second, more or less depending on the pitch.
One can verify this by using a sinewave generator to drive a
loudspeaker while watching the waveform on an oscilloscope.
One immediately observes the waveform going both above and
below the zero point. A change in the sign of the voltage
means that the current flows in the opposite direction.
To those of us to whom this is deeply understood to the
point of being intuitive, we are surprised to encounter
another opinion--as tho someone were arguing that the
earth is flat, or that intercourse is not a factor in
the making of babies.
Perhaps this idea is harder to grasp for a person without
an intuitive familiarity with the behavior of negative
qualities--a rather recent cultural development.
It is one thing to attempt to convince a person that they
are mistaken, another to admit one is wrong on a subject one
has been convinced for many years: the latter requires
humility, the former can tolerate any amount of arrogance.
We all grow inasmuch as we can recognize and learn from our
own experience, and from the wisdom of others.
All of which takes place more readily in an atmosphere of
mutual respect.
Thank you for your attention.
--
Joel Roth
4:52 p.m.
On Thu, Mar 02, 2006 at 06:47:19AM +0900, res0u2uc(a)verizon.net wrote:
On the subject of the direction of signals in cables,
I
think I can offer to put the issue to rest by reminding
all parties that audio signals from a microphone or to a
loudspeaker are carried by the AC (alternating current)
component of electron movement. Thus the direction of the
electric current reverses many thousands of times each
second, more or less depending on the pitch.
thanks, I was going to say much the same thing.
The only exception I can think of is when there's a
DC offset to the signal of sufficient voltage to force the
signal always be positive (or always negative).
But that would mean something's broken :)
--
Paul Winkler
http://www.slinkp.com
5:08 p.m.
On Wed, Mar 01, 2006 at 04:52:33PM -0600, Paul Winkler wrote:
On Thu, Mar 02, 2006 at 06:47:19AM +0900,
res0u2uc(a)verizon.net wrote:
Not necessarily broken. Class A amplifiers do their work
with sufficient DC offset that the signal never changes
direction. Even so, the music is carried by an AC
*component* which is present, and may be separated out by
using a transformer.
It is also a conceptual jump to appreciate how a DC signal
can include an AC component.
I balance my relative familiarity in this area with my
abundant ignorance on the subject of music and recording!
On the subject of the direction of signals in
cables, I
think I can offer to put the issue to rest by reminding
all parties that audio signals from a microphone or to a
loudspeaker are carried by the AC (alternating current)
component of electron movement. Thus the direction of the
electric current reverses many thousands of times each
second, more or less depending on the pitch.
thanks, I was going to say much the same thing.
The only exception I can think of is when there's a
DC offset to the signal of sufficient voltage to force the
signal always be positive (or always negative).
But that would mean something's broken :)
--
Paul Winkler
http://www.slinkp.com
--
Joel Roth
11:43 p.m.
On Thu, Mar 02, 2006 at 07:09:35AM +0900, res0u2uc(a)verizon.net wrote:
On Wed, Mar 01, 2006 at 04:52:33PM -0600, Paul Winkler
wrote:
Or a highpass filter tuned very low - AKA a capacitor in series. Which
almost any modern electronic gear has on its inputs and outputs.
--
Paul Winkler
http://www.slinkp.com
The only exception I can think of is when
there's a
DC offset to the signal of sufficient voltage to force the
signal always be positive (or always negative).
But that would mean something's broken :)
Not necessarily broken. Class A amplifiers do their work
with sufficient DC offset that the signal never changes
direction. Even so, the music is carried by an AC
*component* which is present, and may be separated out by
using a transformer.
2 Mar
2 Mar
1:03 a.m.
On Wed, Mar 01, 2006 at 10:43:15PM -0600, Paul Winkler wrote:
On Thu, Mar 02, 2006 at 07:09:35AM +0900,
res0u2uc(a)verizon.net wrote:
Hmm. Well, my knowledge here isn't great, but I think having
a capacitor at the output of a Class A amplifier would
prevent it from operating with a DC offset.
You're right about most gear using capacitors. Most
transistor amps are Class B or AB which output AC. Older
tube amps, however are usually Class A to reduce the number
of tubes, and like my dad's old Heathkit, have a big
transformer on the output.
(Which, sad to say he threw out one fine day. The only
problem with that amp was that there would be a zhuuum
zhuuum sound pulsating with a period of a couple seconds.
Replacing one tube in the power amp would fix this for a
number of hours.)
On Wed, Mar 01, 2006 at 04:52:33PM -0600, Paul
Winkler wrote:
Or a highpass filter tuned very low - AKA a capacitor in series. Which
almost any modern electronic gear has on its inputs and outputs. The only exception I can think of is when
there's a
DC offset to the signal of sufficient voltage to force the
signal always be positive (or always negative).
But that would mean something's broken :)
Not necessarily broken. Class A amplifiers do their work
with sufficient DC offset that the signal never changes
direction. Even so, the music is carried by an AC
*component* which is present, and may be separated out by
using a transformer. --
Paul Winkler
http://www.slinkp.com
--
Joel Roth
6:47 a.m.
On Thu, Mar 02, 2006 at 03:04:29PM +0900, res0u2uc(a)verizon.net wrote:
Hmm. Well, my knowledge here isn't great, but I
think having
a capacitor at the output of a Class A amplifier would
prevent it from operating with a DC offset.
No. The essential point of (balanced) Class A is that both
halves of the output stage (the one giving the + and
the one giving the - voltage) are both active all the
time and never 'cut off'. This doesn't imply there is
any DC in the output signal, since this is usuaully the
difference between the two halves, and so the DC cancels
out.
Anyway the DC component required for Class A would burn
your speakers in a fraction of a second.
You're right about most gear using capacitors.
Most
transistor amps are Class B or AB which output AC. Older
tube amps, however are usually Class A to reduce the number
of tubes, and like my dad's old Heathkit, have a big
transformer on the output.
Transformers in tube amps are mainly there to do impedance
matching, not to block the DC. There won't be any DC going
into the transformers primary in a decently designed amp
anyway - it would saturate the transformer and make it
appear as a near short circuit to AC.
--
FA
1 Mar
1 Mar
5:35 p.m.
On Wed, Mar 01, 2006 at 04:52:33PM -0600, Paul Winkler wrote:
That's true of course, but the energy flow is always in
the same direction. Not that it matters - the whole
directional cable issue is just one of the many hypes
created to make easy money out of ignorant consumers.
--
FA
On Thu, Mar 02, 2006 at 06:47:19AM +0900,
res0u2uc(a)verizon.net wrote:
On the subject
of the direction of signals in cables, I
think I can offer to put the issue to rest by reminding
all parties that audio signals from a microphone or to a
loudspeaker are carried by the AC (alternating current)
component of electron movement. Thus the direction of the
electric current reverses many thousands of times each
second, more or less depending on the pitch.
thanks, I was going to say much the same thing. 
7:29 p.m.
On Wed, 01 Mar 2006 12:24:26 -0800
"Maluvia" <terakuma(a)imbris.net> wrote:
As you say, some comments I made appear to call into
question basic
premises most of you take as absolutely fundamental, and were hence
unwelcome if not heretical.
Yes, this is what I meant. And yes, there are OT threads on LAU, and
they sometimes are enlightening, insightful, memorable or just plain
boring. But questioning the core principle of computer programming or
computer use is bound to be received ("perceived" :) as provocation.
And argue with people like Paul Davis on *this very subject* is bound
to failure, if not rude.
And I personaly wouldn't use a word like "heretical" here, I'm too wary
of religious perceptions (once again !) to use such a heavy word. There
is an agreement on using the same tools here, not a dogma we obey to.
Anyway, I wish you to keep having a good time making or listening to
music, through whatever device pleases you the most. Hearing is great.
But this is just my perception of things ... ;)
--
David
6663
days inactive
6664
days old
linux-audio-user@lists.linuxaudio.org
10 comments
6 participants
participants (6)
-
David -
fons adriaensen -
Maluvia -
Paul Winkler -
R Parker -
res0u2uc＠verizon.net