13 Jan
2011
13 Jan
'11
7:37 p.m.
Hi all,
Standing on the shoulders of giants[*], I am pleased to announce the
public release of IR, a convolution reverb in the LV2 plugin format.
Released as free software under the GNU GPL, this easy to use plugin
has been created to open the fascinating world of convolution reverb
to Linux-based audio engineers. If you use Ardour to create, mix &
produce music, you will most probably want to check out this plugin.
Assorted features:
* Zero-latency operation
* Support for mono, stereo and 'True Stereo' (4-channel) impulses
* Realtime operation
* Very reasonable CPU consumption
* Maximum impulse length: 1M samples (~22 seconds @ 48kHz)
* Loads a large number of audio file formats
* High quality sample rate conversion of impulse responses
* Stretch control (via high quality SRC in one step integrated with
impulse loading)
* Pre-delay control (0-2000 ms)
* Stereo width control of input signal & impulse response (0-150%)
* Envelope alteration with immediate visual feedback: Attack
time/percent, Envelope, Length
* Reverse impulse response
* Autogain: change impulses without having to adjust 'Wet gain'
* Impulse response visualization (linear/logarithmic scale, peak & RMS)
* Easy interface for fast browsing and loading impulse responses
IR should work on Linux with Ardour 2.8.x (x >= 11) and 3.
For further info and source code download, please visit the plugin's
homepage: http://factorial.hu/plugins/lv2/ir
Thanks,
Tom
[*] Fons Adriaensen (zita-convolver), Erik de Castro Lopo (libsndfile,
libsamplerate)
13 Jan
13 Jan
7:45 p.m.
New subject: [LAD] [ANN] IR: LV2 Convolution Reverb
On Thu, Jan 13, 2011 at 1:37 PM, Tom Szilagyi <tomszilagyi(a)gmail.com> wrote:
Standing on the shoulders of giants[*], I am pleased
to announce the
public release of IR, a convolution reverb in the LV2 plugin format.
Released as free software under the GNU GPL, this easy to use plugin
has been created to open the fascinating world of convolution reverb
to Linux-based audio engineers. If you use Ardour to create, mix &
produce music, you will most probably want to check out this plugin.
Assorted features:
* Zero-latency operation
* Support for mono, stereo and 'True Stereo' (4-channel) impulses
Can you explain what the difference is here with 'stereo' and 'True
Stereo', as far as convolution reverb goes? EastWest/Quantum Leap
announced their new convolution reverb product 'Spaces' this week, and
they also list 'stereo' and 'True Stereo' as features. What does that
mean?
--
Brett W. McCoy -- http://www.electricminstrel.com
------------------------------------------------------------------------
"In the rhythm of music a secret is hidden; If I were to divulge it,
it would overturn the world."
-- Jelaleddin Rumi
7:48 p.m.
New subject: [LAD] [ANN] IR: LV2 Convolution Reverb
On 13 January 2011 19:44, Brett McCoy <idragosani(a)gmail.com> wrote:
Can you explain what the difference is here with 'stereo' and 'True
Stereo', as far as convolution reverb goes?
Quoting the IR homepage:
[...] IR supports so-called 'True Stereo' impulses. These are four
channel impulses that describe a full convolution matrix (the four
channels contain, in order, the convolution paths L->L, L->R, R->L,
R->R).<end quote>
HTH,
Tom
7:54 p.m.
New subject: [LAD] [ANN] IR: LV2 Convolution Reverb
On Thu, Jan 13, 2011 at 1:48 PM, Tom Szilagyi <tomszilagyi(a)gmail.com> wrote:
On 13 January 2011 19:44, Brett McCoy
<idragosani(a)gmail.com> wrote:
Yep, found that like 30 seconds after I sent the email :-) Thanks
I'll give this a spin tonight
--
Brett W. McCoy -- http://www.electricminstrel.com
------------------------------------------------------------------------
"In the rhythm of music a secret is hidden; If I were to divulge it,
it would overturn the world."
-- Jelaleddin Rumi
Can you explain what the difference is here with 'stereo' and 'True
Stereo', as far as convolution reverb goes?
Quoting the IR homepage:
[...] IR supports so-called 'True Stereo' impulses. These are four
channel impulses that describe a full convolution matrix (the four
channels contain, in order, the convolution paths L->L, L->R, R->L,
R->R).<end quote> 
8:41 p.m.
New subject: [LAD] [ANN] IR: LV2 Convolution Reverb
On Thursday 13 January 2011 19:48:38 Tom Szilagyi wrote:
On 13 January 2011 19:44, Brett McCoy
<idragosani(a)gmail.com> wrote:
Hm, that would then represent a stereo source in a virtual room recorded to a
stereo sink. Nice. Not.
What kind of purpose has this??? When I want reverb, I want to place the
source in a certain position (via pan for example) and get the reverb for the
room with the source "at that position", not the reverb of a stereo-
reproduction of that source at another position, put into the virtual room and
recorded in stereo again...
The only places where convolution-reverbs make sense imho:
1) Place all sources in short distance to each other compared to the virtual
room. Then you have a mono-to-stereo (when you mix to stereo). This will
actually give good results.
2) Use an impuls-response-package with several inputs for several positions
with each the stereo-output of the listening position. And the route your
signals to the different source-inputs depending on the position in the room
you want to give them. Gives better results then #1 but requires better
reverbs.
3) Fold the ambient of your stereo-song played on a stereo system in the
virtual room and record it at another position. Sounds like fun, but works
reliable only when you use head-phones for listening. And is not worth the
computation time for music that is to be played on any system from high-end
stereos to mp3-players and mobile phones.
Have fun,
Arnold
Can you explain what the difference is here with
'stereo' and 'True
Stereo', as far as convolution reverb goes?
Quoting the IR homepage:
[...] IR supports so-called 'True Stereo' impulses. These are four
channel impulses that describe a full convolution matrix (the four
channels contain, in order, the convolution paths L->L, L->R, R->L,
R->R).<end quote> 
8:31 p.m.
thanks for the announce.
unfortunatelly a2 and a3 are crashing here on the plugin:
http://tracker.ardour.org/view.php?id=3711
cheers,
doc
8:38 p.m.
On 13 January 2011 20:31, Dragan Noveski <perodog(a)gmx.net> wrote:
thanks for the announce.
unfortunatelly a2 and a3 are crashing here on the plugin:
http://tracker.ardour.org/view.php?id=3711
Here I'm using A2 2.8.11 revision 8257 and A3.0pre0 revision 8505
Haven't tested older versions of Ardour.
Tom
14 Jan
14 Jan
10:51 a.m.
Am 13.01.2011 20:31, schrieb Dragan Noveski:
thanks for the announce.
unfortunatelly a2 and a3 are crashing here on the plugin:
I have it running perfectly well on ardour 2.8.11 (revision 8343)
http://tracker.ardour.org/view.php?id=3711
cheers,
doc
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10:53 a.m.
Hartmut Noack wrote:
Am 13.01.2011 20:31, schrieb Dragan Noveski:
Quickly downloaded, compiled and opened in ardour ( 2.8.11) with a few
IR liked from the website and it seems to work.
Nice job!
Lorenzo.
thanks for the announce.
unfortunatelly a2 and a3 are crashing here on the plugin:
I have it running perfectly well on ardour 2.8.11 (revision 8343)
http://tracker.ardour.org/view.php?id=3711
cheers,
doc
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10:54 a.m.
Am 14.01.2011 10:51, schrieb Hartmut Noack:
Am 13.01.2011 20:31, schrieb Dragan Noveski:
Dammit! I was not aware of the speed, bugfixing for free software can gain.
So, yes OK, it works, I got it downloaded 3h ago so I guess, it has the
fix included...
thanks for the announce.
unfortunatelly a2 and a3 are crashing here on the plugin:
I have it running perfectly well on ardour 2.8.11 (revision 8343)
http://tracker.ardour.org/view.php?id=3711
cheers,
doc
_______________________________________________
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10 p.m.
On Thu, Jan 13, 2011 at 1:37 PM, Tom Szilagyi <tomszilagyi(a)gmail.com> wrote:
Standing on the shoulders of giants[*], I am pleased
to announce the
public release of IR, a convolution reverb in the LV2 plugin format.
Dumb n00b question:
To use a convolution reverb one needs a recording of an impulse response
right? If I found a random one on the internet would it tend to work ok in
any reverb or do I need one made especially for the reverb implementation
I'm using?
--
Darrin
14 Jan
14 Jan
2:38 p.m.
On 13 January 2011 21:57, Darrin Thompson <darrinth(a)gmail.com> wrote:
Dumb n00b question:
To use a convolution reverb one needs a recording of an impulse response
right? If I found a random one on the internet would it tend to work ok in
any reverb or do I need one made especially for the reverb implementation
I'm using?
Technically, an impulse response is just an ordinary soundfile. Of
course it has a certain soundfile format, sample format, channel count
and samplerate, but if these are compatible with the convolution
reverb you're loading it into (you can successfully load it into the
plugin) then yes, it should generally work.
Of course there are proprietary convolution reverbs that are bundled
with impulse responses in a proprietary format, meaning that these
impulses are not plain soundfiles, but are in some proprietary (and
secret) binary format. Naturally, you cannot use those (and I guess if
you could somehow reverse engineer the impulses into an "open"
soundfile format, which would technically allow you to use the
impulses in an open source plugin, the EULA of that plugin's license
would have a word about it).
Tom
11:45 p.m.
On 1/14/11, Tom Szilagyi wrote:
(and I guess if
you could somehow reverse engineer the impulses into an "open"
soundfile format, which would technically allow you to use the
impulses in an open source plugin, the EULA of that plugin's license
would have a word about it).
Nothing prevents someone from checking EULA first :)
Alexandre Prokoudine
http://libregraphicsworld.org
1 a.m.
On 14/01/11 05:37, Tom Szilagyi wrote:
Hi all,
Standing on the shoulders of giants[*], I am pleased to announce the
public release of IR, a convolution reverb in the LV2 plugin format.
Released as free software under the GNU GPL, this easy to use plugin
has been created to open the fascinating world of convolution reverb
to Linux-based audio engineers. If you use Ardour to create, mix&
produce music, you will most probably want to check out this plugin.
This is brilliant! I just tested your updated version in Ardour 2.8.11,
and it worked beautifully. The bookmark system is perfect for quickly
testing and assessing a variety of IR files, and while I haven't checked
out the envelope and stretch controls, I'm sure they'll come in very
useful, too.
I'm raving like a school kid, I know, but I've been looking for this
exact plugin for ages now :) It's great to finally have it.
Perhaps this is a question for Fons, but do you know if this plugin has
the same issue that stand-alone jconvolver has with JACK's freewheeling
mode? It'd be great to have Ardour exports continue to work as expected
while using this plugin.
Thanks
Leigh
1:17 a.m.
On 14 January 2011 00:59, Leigh Dyer <lsd(a)wootangent.net> wrote:
On 14/01/11 05:37, Tom Szilagyi wrote:
Thanks. The design is not too original, though, if you look around in
the commercial plugin world. I just took some well established ideas
and applied them.
Hi all,
Standing on the shoulders of giants[*], I am pleased to announce the
public release of IR, a convolution reverb in the LV2 plugin format.
Released as free software under the GNU GPL, this easy to use plugin
has been created to open the fascinating world of convolution reverb
to Linux-based audio engineers. If you use Ardour to create, mix&
produce music, you will most probably want to check out this plugin.
This is brilliant! I just tested your updated version in Ardour 2.8.11, and
it worked beautifully. The bookmark system is perfect for quickly testing
and assessing a variety of IR files, and while I haven't checked out the
envelope and stretch controls, I'm sure they'll come in very useful, too.
I'm raving like a school kid, I know, but I've been looking for this exact
plugin for ages now :) It's great to finally have it. Perhaps this is a question for Fons, but do you know
if this plugin has the
same issue that stand-alone jconvolver has with JACK's freewheeling mode?
It'd be great to have Ardour exports continue to work as expected while
using this plugin.
Ardour exports should work as expected.
Tom
1:55 a.m.
On 14/01/11 11:32, Tom Szilagyi wrote:
On 14 January 2011 01:17, Tom
Szilagyi<tomszilagyi(a)gmail.com> wrote:
I've just tested a few exports on my dual-core laptop, and the reverb
came through fine in all cases, so either it works fine, or I'm just
lucky :) We'll see how it goes in the real world in the future.
I've found one minor issue, though -- the ".ir_save" file appears not in
my home directory, but in the working directory that the host (tested
with both Ardour and Qtractor) was launched from. If I re-launch the
host from the same folder it picks up the saved settings just fine, but
if I launch it from a different folder, it's unable to load the
bookmarks or the selected IR file.
Thanks
Leigh
Ardour exports should work as expected.
Forgot to add that I (still) use a single processor system, so YMMV.
Tom
_______________________________________________
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3:33 a.m.
Hi Tom,
Latest source builds and works beautifully with Ardour 2.8.11, rev 8197,
on Ubuntu 10.04, 32-bit. Excellent plugin !
Best,
dp
3:54 a.m.
On Thu, Jan 13, 2011 at 7:32 PM, Tom Szilagyi <tomszilagyi(a)gmail.com> wrote:
On 14 January 2011 01:17, Tom Szilagyi
<tomszilagyi(a)gmail.com> wrote:
Sounds fantastic! Working beautifully under Ubuntu Studio 10.04
(32-bit). I tried the Taj Mahal impulse from one of the links you
provided... all I can say is... WOW. Thanks again for putting this
together.
--
Brett W. McCoy -- http://www.electricminstrel.com
------------------------------------------------------------------------
"In the rhythm of music a secret is hidden; If I were to divulge it,
it would overturn the world."
-- Jelaleddin Rumi
Ardour exports should work as expected.
Forgot to add that I (still) use a single processor system, so YMMV.
1:37 a.m.
On 14/01/11 11:17, Tom Szilagyi wrote:
Both my laptop and desktop are dual-core, so I may run in to problems :)
I'll test it out anyway and see how I go. It's certainly not a
deal-breaker, but it would definitely be nice if Ardour exports worked
normally.
Thanks
Leigh
On 14 January 2011 00:59, Leigh
Dyer<lsd(a)wootangent.net> wrote:
Yep, it reminds me a lot of what I've seen (in magazines, etc.) of
plugins like Altiverb and SIR2. Very cool to have this stuff under
Linux, though!
On 14/01/11 05:37, Tom Szilagyi wrote:
Thanks. The design is not too original, though, if you look around in
the commercial plugin world. I just took some well established ideas
and applied them.
Hi all,
Standing on the shoulders of giants[*], I am pleased to announce the
public release of IR, a convolution reverb in the LV2 plugin format.
Released as free software under the GNU GPL, this easy to use plugin
has been created to open the fascinating world of convolution reverb
to Linux-based audio engineers. If you use Ardour to create, mix&
produce music, you will most probably want to check out this plugin.
This is brilliant! I just tested your updated version in Ardour 2.8.11, and
it worked beautifully. The bookmark system is perfect for quickly testing
and assessing a variety of IR files, and while I haven't checked out the
envelope and stretch controls, I'm sure they'll come in very useful, too.
I'm raving like a school kid, I know, but I've been looking for this exact
plugin for ages now :) It's great to finally have it. Ardour exports
should work as expected.
Forgot to add that I (still) use a single processor system, so YMMV. 
3:15 a.m.
On 01/14/2011 12:59 AM, Leigh Dyer wrote:
Perhaps this is a question for Fons, but do you know
if this plugin has
the same issue that stand-alone jconvolver has with JACK's freewheeling
mode? It'd be great to have Ardour exports continue to work as expected
while using this plugin.
what is this issue, btw? i've seen the warning message countless times,
but never found a problem with the audio after exporting from ardour in
freewheeling mode...
3:47 a.m.
On 14/01/11 13:15, Jörn Nettingsmeier wrote:
On 01/14/2011 12:59 AM, Leigh Dyer wrote:
Fons has discussed it in the past on the list -- here's a link:
http://lists.linuxaudio.org/pipermail/linux-audio-user/2009-December/065259…
To quickly summarise that, the convolution engine uses multiple CPU
cores when they're available, but the way in which it does this is
designed for realtime operation, and can fail when running in
freewheeling mode. From what I understand, it's likely (but not
guaranteed!) to work on single-core systems, but on multi-core systems,
it often (but not always) fails.
FWIW, with the performance I have on just one of my CPU cores, I'd be
quite happy to have the convolution all run on one core if it meant that
freewheeling mode worked reliably.
Thanks
Leigh
Perhaps this is a question for Fons, but do you
know if this plugin has
the same issue that stand-alone jconvolver has with JACK's freewheeling
mode? It'd be great to have Ardour exports continue to work as expected
while using this plugin.
what is this issue, btw? i've seen the warning message countless times,
but never found a problem with the audio after exporting from ardour in
freewheeling mode... _______________________________________________
Linux-audio-user mailing list
Linux-audio-user(a)lists.linuxaudio.org
http://lists.linuxaudio.org/listinfo/linux-audio-user
3:35 p.m.
New subject: jconvolver / zita-convolver and freewheeling...
On 01/14/2011 03:47 AM, Leigh Dyer wrote:
On 14/01/11 13:15, Jörn Nettingsmeier wrote:
cheers leigh. here's the relevant section of fons' explanation:
On 01/14/2011 12:59 AM, Leigh Dyer wrote:
Fons has discussed it in the past on the list -- here's a link:
http://lists.linuxaudio.org/pipermail/linux-audio-user/2009-December/065259… Perhaps this is a question for Fons, but do you
know if this plugin has
the same issue that stand-alone jconvolver has with JACK's freewheeling
mode? It'd be great to have Ardour exports continue to work as expected
while using this plugin.
what is this issue, btw? i've seen the warning message countless times,
but never found a problem with the audio after exporting from ardour in
freewheeling mode... What is happening is this: zita convolver uses some
processing threads that effectively run with a period
that is a power-of-2 multiple of Jack's basic period.
They run on RT priorities just below the one of Jack's
process thread (-1 for for each doubling of the period).
The output of these threads must be ready when their
next period starts.
Zita-convolver checks this condition and will report
errors if these threads are too slow, but it will not
wait for them - you're not supposed to wait in Jack's
callback, and if your system does support the CPU load
for the given configuration they will be ready, even
with some safety margin.
and that explains why it seems to work for me, even though i have moved
to a quadcore system a while ago: my sessions tend to be biggish, and i
usually bounce to the same partition that ardour reads the tracks from.
hence, my export is i/o bound (not because of the raw bandwith i use,
but because of excessive disk head movements). so it seems i've been
lucky: since there is plenty of cpu left even when freewheeling "as fast
as possible", zita's helper threads always finish on time.
best,
jörn
5:23 a.m.
On Thu, Jan 13, 2011 at 11:37 AM, Tom Szilagyi <tomszilagyi(a)gmail.com>wrote;wrote:
Hi all,
Standing on the shoulders of giants[*], I am pleased to announce the
public release of IR, a convolution reverb in the LV2 plugin format.
Released as free software under the GNU GPL, this easy to use plugin
has been created to open the fascinating world of convolution reverb
to Linux-based audio engineers. If you use Ardour to create, mix &
produce music, you will most probably want to check out this plugin.
Assorted features:
* Zero-latency operation
* Support for mono, stereo and 'True Stereo' (4-channel) impulses
* Realtime operation
* Very reasonable CPU consumption
* Maximum impulse length: 1M samples (~22 seconds @ 48kHz)
* Loads a large number of audio file formats
* High quality sample rate conversion of impulse responses
* Stretch control (via high quality SRC in one step integrated with
impulse loading)
* Pre-delay control (0-2000 ms)
* Stereo width control of input signal & impulse response (0-150%)
* Envelope alteration with immediate visual feedback: Attack
time/percent, Envelope, Length
* Reverse impulse response
* Autogain: change impulses without having to adjust 'Wet gain'
* Impulse response visualization (linear/logarithmic scale, peak & RMS)
* Easy interface for fast browsing and loading impulse responses
IR should work on Linux with Ardour 2.8.x (x >= 11) and 3.
For further info and source code download, please visit the plugin's
homepage: http://factorial.hu/plugins/lv2/ir
Thanks,
Tom
[*] Fons Adriaensen (zita-convolver), Erik de Castro Lopo (libsndfile,
libsamplerate)
_______________________________________________
Linux-audio-user mailing list
Linux-audio-user(a)lists.linuxaudio.org
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WOW, I would say more but I think this sums it up. WOW!
Daniel Worth
Host
The Open Source Musician Podcast
http://opensourcemusician.com
3:27 p.m.
On 01/13/2011 07:37 PM, Tom Szilagyi wrote:
Hi all,
Standing on the shoulders of giants[*], I am pleased to announce the
public release of IR, a convolution reverb in the LV2 plugin format.
Released as free software under the GNU GPL, this easy to use plugin
has been created to open the fascinating world of convolution reverb
to Linux-based audio engineers. If you use Ardour to create, mix &
produce music, you will most probably want to check out this plugin.
Assorted features:
* Zero-latency operation
* Support for mono, stereo and 'True Stereo' (4-channel) impulses
* Realtime operation
* Very reasonable CPU consumption
* Maximum impulse length: 1M samples (~22 seconds @ 48kHz)
* Loads a large number of audio file formats
* High quality sample rate conversion of impulse responses
* Stretch control (via high quality SRC in one step integrated with
impulse loading)
* Pre-delay control (0-2000 ms)
* Stereo width control of input signal & impulse response (0-150%)
* Envelope alteration with immediate visual feedback: Attack
time/percent, Envelope, Length
* Reverse impulse response
* Autogain: change impulses without having to adjust 'Wet gain'
* Impulse response visualization (linear/logarithmic scale, peak & RMS)
* Easy interface for fast browsing and loading impulse responses
IR should work on Linux with Ardour 2.8.x (x >= 11) and 3.
For further info and source code download, please visit the plugin's
homepage: http://factorial.hu/plugins/lv2/ir
Thanks,
Tom
[*] Fons Adriaensen (zita-convolver), Erik de Castro Lopo (libsndfile,
libsamplerate)
Woohoo! Awesome stuff!! Thanks a lot for this really useful and great
plug-in!
Best,
Jeremy
PS. Ubuntu 10.04 packages available in my PPA:
https://launchpad.net/~autostatic/+archive/ppa
3:43 p.m.
On 01/14/2011 03:27 PM, Jeremy Jongepier wrote:
PS. Ubuntu 10.04 packages available in my PPA:
https://launchpad.net/~autostatic/+archive/ppa
Thanks. Would be even better to get it directly into Debian via the
Debian Multimedia Team (hint :p) but thanks anyways! :)
\r
4:02 p.m.
On 14 January 2011 15:43, rosea.grammostola <rosea.grammostola(a)gmail.com> wrote:
On 01/14/2011 03:27 PM, Jeremy Jongepier wrote:
I am planning to release a fairly important bugfix release very soon
(1-2 days at most), could you wait for this one before distributing
the plugin to the masses?
There are a few - mostly trivial - problems in IR that I need to fix
before the plugin is ready for general production use. I'm working on
it right now.
Thanks,
Tom
PS. Ubuntu 10.04 packages available in my PPA:
https://launchpad.net/~autostatic/+archive/ppa
Thanks. Would be even better to get it directly into Debian via the Debian
Multimedia Team (hint :p) but thanks anyways! :)
9:29 p.m.
Hi all,
after a day of intense work and testing, I present you a corrected
version of IR. Version 1.1 contains these important fixes:
* really use the user's homedir for storing the .ir_save file
* proper GType and GThread initialization, at the proper place
(loading of the plugin shared library)
* fix ir.ttl: add missing namespace prefix "rdf"
* fix usage of zita-convolver (proper stopping and deallocating of
Convproc instances). Thank you Fons for checking out my code and
instructing me.
* fix crash when removing a never-unbypassed plugin instance
There are two known issues with IR 1.1:
* When a plugin instance is created bypassed in Ardour (for example
when copy&pasting from another IR instance), you have to un-bypass the
new instance to be able to configure it.
* Removing a plugin instance from Ardour while the plugin is in the
middle of a lengthy resampling operation (waveform display reads
"Loading" or "Calculating") will crash. It is easy to avoid this;
please do so. A fix for this is planned in a future version of IR.
Regarding LV2 hosts other than Ardour: the second in the above list of
fixes should help, however please be aware that IR is at the moment
really not usable without its own GTK UI. In future versions I may
manage to switch to using an external-process LV2 UI which would
result in the plugin UI being completely host toolkit agnostic.
Please, by all means upgrade to this new version. It is downloadable
from the same location as before: http://factorial.hu/plugins/lv2/ir
I would like to thank everyone for the overwhelming feedback, both on-
and offlist.
Thanks,
Tom
5115
days inactive
5116
days old
linux-audio-user@lists.linuxaudio.org
28 comments
15 participants
participants (15)
-
Alexandre Prokoudine -
Arnold Krille -
Brett McCoy -
Daniel Worth -
Darrin Thompson -
Dave Phillips -
Dragan Noveski -
fons＠kokkinizita.net -
Hartmut Noack -
Jeremy Jongepier -
Jörn Nettingsmeier -
Leigh Dyer -
Lorenzo Sutton -
rosea.grammostola -
Tom Szilagyi