2 Nov
2010
2 Nov
'10
5:19 p.m.
On 10/29/2010 02:23 PM, Andrew C wrote:
Hi Rosea,
Personally, I'd say that given the speed of SSDs, I'd say they'd be
fine for audio.
In terms of the technology used, it's just flash based memory anyway,
so it's not anything particularly new or scary.
Thanks for the replies so far. Till now people seems to be positive
about SSD for audio data. More and/ or different views on this?
Best regards,
\r
2 Nov
2 Nov
5:44 p.m.
New subject: SSD for audio
There are RAM-SSD modules available. Plugs in via SATA 300 or PCI or
something IIRC...
That'd be awesome for anything that needs fast IO & sustained writing.
If I remember the company Ill post here, Cheers, -Harry
On Tue, Nov 2, 2010 at 3:19 PM, rosea.grammostola <
rosea.grammostola(a)gmail.com> wrote:
On 10/29/2010 02:23 PM, Andrew C wrote:
Hi Rosea,
Personally, I'd say that given the speed of SSDs, I'd say they'd be
fine for audio.
In terms of the technology used, it's just flash based memory anyway,
so it's not anything particularly new or scary.
Thanks for the replies so far. Till now people seems to be positive about
SSD for audio data. More and/ or different views on this?
Best regards,
\r
_______________________________________________
Linux-audio-user mailing list
Linux-audio-user(a)lists.linuxaudio.org
http://lists.linuxaudio.org/listinfo/linux-audio-user
5:48 p.m.
New subject: SSD for audio
On 2010-11-02T16:44:31, Harry Van Haaren wrote:
There are RAM-SSD modules available. Plugs in via SATA
300 or PCI or
something IIRC...
That'd be awesome for anything that needs fast IO & sustained writing.
If I remember the company Ill post here, Cheers, -Harry
Fusion-io?
/Allan
--
Allan Wind
Life Integrity, LLC
<http://lifeintegrity.com>
5:55 p.m.
New subject: SSD for audio
On Tue, 2 Nov 2010 12:48:19 -0400
Allan Wind <allan_wind(a)lifeintegrity.com> wrote:
On 2010-11-02T16:44:31, Harry Van Haaren wrote:
I am currently working in QA for a company that makes storage systems
(NAS/SAN appliances), and had a chance to work with some of the FusionIO
products. Holy guacamole, they are blazingly fast! They're pricey, though,
since that kind of speed comes at a premium.
I've also had the chance to work with a number of different SSDs, and have
just purchased one to install into my studio machine. My experiences at
work lead me to believe that the SSDs now available are reliable and fast
enough for audio work.
--
======================================================================
Joe Hartley - UNIX/network Consultant - jh(a)brainiac.com
Without deviation from the norm, "progress" is not possible. - FZappa
There are RAM-SSD modules available. Plugs in via
SATA 300 or PCI or
something IIRC...
That'd be awesome for anything that needs fast IO & sustained writing.
If I remember the company Ill post here, Cheers, -Harry
Fusion-io? 
9:02 p.m.
New subject: SSD for audio
On Tue, 2 Nov 2010, Joe Hartley wrote:
On Tue, 2 Nov 2010 12:48:19 -0400
Allan Wind <allan_wind(a)lifeintegrity.com> wrote:
Something that's been occuring to me today:
Linux has ramdisk support, though it's seldom used or talked about as
much as ramdisks used to be on the Amiga platform long ago...
I can hardly imagine an Ardour project bigger than 512MB. A 1GB project
would be humongous...
These days you can have 8, 16, 24...even more...gigabytes of real
memory...
What's really stopping anyone from having an Ardour project in ram, and
bypassing the whole sata/scsi subsystem completely, saving the kernel a
ton of i/o, and making *lots* of simulateous tracks possible?
--
+ Brent A. Busby + "We've all heard that a million monkeys
+ UNIX Systems Admin + banging on a million typewriters will
+ University of Chicago + eventually reproduce the entire works of
+ Physical Sciences Div. + Shakespeare. Now, thanks to the Internet,
+ James Franck Institute + we know this is not true." -Robert Wilensky
On 2010-11-02T16:44:31, Harry Van Haaren wrote:
I am currently working in QA for a company that makes storage systems
(NAS/SAN appliances), and had a chance to work with some of the
FusionIO products. Holy guacamole, they are blazingly fast! They're
pricey, though, since that kind of speed comes at a premium.
I've also had the chance to work with a number of different SSDs, and
have just purchased one to install into my studio machine. My
experiences at work lead me to believe that the SSDs now available are
reliable and fast enough for audio work. There are RAM-SSD modules available. Plugs in via
SATA 300 or PCI or
something IIRC...
That'd be awesome for anything that needs fast IO & sustained writing.
If I remember the company Ill post here, Cheers, -Harry
Fusion-io? 
3 Nov
3 Nov
7:58 a.m.
New subject: SSD for audio
Brent Busby wrote:
On Tue, 2 Nov 2010, Joe Hartley wrote:
Don't forget to include a heavy-duty UPS able to keep that system up and
running long enough to write all those gigabytes of data to storage that
doesn't require constant power to maintain it's contents! ;-)
--
David
gnome(a)hawaii.rr.com
authenticity, honesty, community
On Tue, 2 Nov 2010 12:48:19 -0400
Allan Wind <allan_wind(a)lifeintegrity.com> wrote:
Something that's been occuring to me today:
Linux has ramdisk support, though it's seldom used or talked about as
much as ramdisks used to be on the Amiga platform long ago...
I can hardly imagine an Ardour project bigger than 512MB. A 1GB project
would be humongous...
These days you can have 8, 16, 24...even more...gigabytes of real memory...
What's really stopping anyone from having an Ardour project in ram, and
bypassing the whole sata/scsi subsystem completely, saving the kernel a
ton of i/o, and making *lots* of simulateous tracks possible? On 2010-11-02T16:44:31, Harry Van Haaren wrote:
I am currently working in QA for a company that makes storage systems
(NAS/SAN appliances), and had a chance to work with some of the
FusionIO products. Holy guacamole, they are blazingly fast! They're
pricey, though, since that kind of speed comes at a premium.
I've also had the chance to work with a number of different SSDs, and
have just purchased one to install into my studio machine. My
experiences at work lead me to believe that the SSDs now available are
reliable and fast enough for audio work. There are RAM-SSD modules available. Plugs in via
SATA 300 or PCI or
something IIRC...
That'd be awesome for anything that needs fast IO & sustained writing.
If I remember the company Ill post here, Cheers, -Harry
Fusion-io?
6:28 p.m.
New subject: SSD for audio
On Tue, 2 Nov 2010, david wrote:
Don't forget to include a heavy-duty UPS able to
keep that system up
and running long enough to write all those gigabytes of data to
storage that doesn't require constant power to maintain it's contents!
;-)
Oh yeah, of course I've got a UPS... Apparently the cablemodem router
in my apartment building has one too, because I'm able to stay on the
Internet during power outages even after the whole building has gone
dark.
(Which means I'm able to actually do what our electric company says
about going onto their web site to let them know about blackouts...
It's still hilarious that they tell people that though.)
--
+ Brent A. Busby + "We've all heard that a million monkeys
+ UNIX Systems Admin + banging on a million typewriters will
+ University of Chicago + eventually reproduce the entire works of
+ Physical Sciences Div. + Shakespeare. Now, thanks to the Internet,
+ James Franck Institute + we know this is not true." -Robert Wilensky
8:28 p.m.
New subject: SSD for audio
Brent Busby wrote:
On Tue, 2 Nov 2010, david wrote:
Good for you!
Don't forget to include a heavy-duty UPS able
to keep that system up
and running long enough to write all those gigabytes of data to
storage that doesn't require constant power to maintain it's contents!
;-)
Oh yeah, of course I've got a UPS... Apparently the cablemodem router
in my apartment building has one too, because I'm able to stay on the
Internet during power outages even after the whole building has gone dark. (Which means I'm able to actually do what our
electric company says
about going onto their web site to let them know about blackouts... It's
still hilarious that they tell people that though.)
So people can report it via smartphone or from another building that
isn't having power problems, maybe?
--
David
gnome(a)hawaii.rr.com
authenticity, honesty, community
5 Nov
5 Nov
7:23 p.m.
New subject: SSD for audio
On Wed, 3 Nov 2010, david wrote:
Brent Busby wrote:
Oh yeah, but it still looks rediculous printed in big letters on the
outside of their bill envelopes. (Not that IT departments telling users
to email if their computers don't work sounds any better...)
--
+ Brent A. Busby + "We've all heard that a million monkeys
+ UNIX Systems Admin + banging on a million typewriters will
+ University of Chicago + eventually reproduce the entire works of
+ Physical Sciences Div. + Shakespeare. Now, thanks to the Internet,
+ James Franck Institute + we know this is not true." -Robert Wilensky
(Which means I'm able to actually do what
our electric company says
about going onto their web site to let them know about blackouts...
It's still hilarious that they tell people that though.)
So people can report it via smartphone or from another building that
isn't having power problems, maybe? 
9:14 p.m.
New subject: SSD for audio
On Fri, Nov 05, 2010 at 01:23:21PM -0500, Brent Busby wrote:
Oh yeah, but it still looks rediculous printed in big
letters on the
outside of their bill envelopes. (Not that IT departments telling
users to email if their computers don't work sounds any better...)
When I was working for BRTN (Belgian public broadcaster) at the
master TV control room they had a slide (these were the analog days)
saying 'Video transmitter out of order'.
Ciao,
--
FA
There are three of them, and Alleline.
6 Nov
6 Nov
7:46 a.m.
New subject: SSD for audio
fons(a)kokkinizita.net wrote:
On Fri, Nov 05, 2010 at 01:23:21PM -0500, Brent Busby
wrote:
Hmmm, at least maybe other staff at the station watching things on a
video monitor would be aware that whatever they were seeing on their
monitors was NOT being seen by viewers? ;-)
--
David
gnome(a)hawaii.rr.com
authenticity, honesty, community
Oh yeah, but it still looks rediculous printed in
big letters on the
outside of their bill envelopes. (Not that IT departments telling
users to email if their computers don't work sounds any better...)
When I was working for BRTN (Belgian public broadcaster) at the
master TV control room they had a slide (these were the analog days)
saying 'Video transmitter out of order'. 
2 Nov
2 Nov
5:52 p.m.
New subject: SSD for audio
Rosea,
Thanks for the replies so far. Till now people seems
to be positive
about SSD for audio data. More and/ or different views on this?
What exactly should be the problem using SSDs for audio? SSDs are far
superior in comparison to discs in every way except the the number of
write cycles.
We use SSDs in audio production a lot, also for editing video. There are
PCIe cards on the market (OCZ e.g.) which offer way higher bandwidth and
IOPs than 3GBit/6GBit SATA drives. They allow for instantenious handling
of several uncompressed HD/2k streams while editing and create a very
comfortable workflow.
Of course we don't use SSDs as a storage solution, just for the 'hot'
data (=active projects).
Flo
--
Machines can do the work, so people have time to think.
public key DA43FEF4 x-hkp://wwwkeys.eu.pgp.net
7:19 p.m.
New subject: SSD for audio
Am 02.11.2010 17:51, schrieb Florian Faber:
Rosea,
I can tell you what may go wrong.
You may counter write cycle problems by ALWAYS USING BACKUPS-no compromise!
I used SSDs for audio recording/editing, and when you use MLC or even
SSDs with Jmicron JMF602b
there ARE problems when you dont read sequentially(e.g. multitrack), try
SSD raid or a mixed SSD/HD setup, it'll boost things extremely....
THE BIG BUT is when your SSD has firmware bugs, Jmicron SSDs are famous
for that(shows as 4GB disk), you may reflash the device(ask if you need
flashers/drivers/links), but ALL YOUR BELOVED DATA are lost.
If you need high speed access(e.g. live transmission), become aware how
cheap ram is today, and try to use something like the following command:
"mount -o size=2000M -t tmpfs none /media/ram"
No SSD can beat that...(actually)
In the end, applied correctly SSDs may speed up your workflow,
but cheap or faulty SSDs may destroy your whole contractors data.
For the money of two cheap SSD(needed for solid performance)
you may buy an old server with wnough ram slots an redundant gigabit(min
2000MB/s) and you are just fine
Cheers
Thanks for the replies so far. Till now people
seems to be positive
about SSD for audio data. More and/ or different views on this?
What exactly should be the problem using SSDs for audio? SSDs are far
superior in comparison to discs in every way except the the number of
write cycles.
We use SSDs in audio production a lot, also for editing video. There are
PCIe cards on the market (OCZ e.g.) which offer way higher bandwidth and
IOPs than 3GBit/6GBit SATA drives. They allow for instantenious handling
of several uncompressed HD/2k streams while editing and create a very
comfortable workflow.
Of course we don't use SSDs as a storage solution, just for the 'hot'
data (=active projects).
Flo
7:49 p.m.
New subject: SSD for audio
On Tue, 02 Nov 2010 19:19:18 +0100
Benjamin Freitag <benjamin(a)die-guten-partei.de> wrote:
If you need high speed access(e.g. live transmission),
become aware how
cheap ram is today, and try to use something like the following command:
"mount -o size=2000M -t tmpfs none /media/ram"
No SSD can beat that...(actually)
But the SSD will retain its data when the machine crashes, or the power goes
out, or when the drummer decides to find out what that button does (it turns
the UPS on and off, doofus). I'd never record to a RAM disk because there's
always an additional step needed to write to the "real" storage. Even if
you use rsync to only write what's new, there may be significant delays while
you do the dump.
In the end, applied correctly SSDs may speed up your
workflow,
but cheap or faulty SSDs may destroy your whole contractors data.
So can bad RAM and/or bad hard drives. In my experience SSDs are now no
more or less prone to problems than any other part of the computer. Backups
should be approached like voting in Chicago - early and often!
For the money of two cheap SSD(needed for solid
performance)
you may buy an old server with wnough ram slots an redundant gigabit(min
2000MB/s) and you are just fine
It'd be extremely hard to find a server that runs quietly enough for a studio
environment. I have a nice tower that was designed to be as quiet as possible.
Putting SSDs in will allow me to make it even quieter than it is now.
I do agree that having 2 mirrored drives is more secure, though.
--
======================================================================
Joe Hartley - UNIX/network Consultant - jh(a)brainiac.com
Without deviation from the norm, "progress" is not possible. - FZappa
8:12 p.m.
New subject: SSD for audio
Am 02.11.2010 19:49, schrieb Joe Hartley:
And "in your experience" is how many years?
The 1.000.000 hrs MTBF is calculated when running 1000 drives for 1000
hrs and one starts to fail,
so every 1000 customers it may happen. Yes wear level algorithms became
better, and yes it all becomes better, but still the testing time was
too low for final statements.
Not secure, i mean speed, ssds still go down in read/write speeds when
you have fragmented disks
Security only comes by Backups.
I love SSDs when recording in live venues, because heavy low subs WILL
kill HDs sooner or later.
I hate my G.Skill with JMF602b because it had a short circuit via
USB(faulty port on the disk ) and now all e-mails, bills etc are lost.
Just think about it..
Youll never be 100% safe, but you may try..
C Ya
On Tue, 02 Nov 2010 19:19:18 +0100
Benjamin Freitag <benjamin(a)die-guten-partei.de> wrote:
Hey, linux machines dont crash as long as your proggies are compiled n
programmed correctly.
And even when, have you heard about buffers(also those of you ssd?), to
counter effects like low speeds when fragmentation occurs, thats not an
argument "when your machine crashes".
And why is the drummer sitting next to the UPS and you didnt tell him he
IS THERE FOR DRUMMING, not manipulating your systems?
If you need high speed access(e.g. live
transmission), become aware how
cheap ram is today, and try to use something like the following command:
"mount -o size=2000M -t tmpfs none /media/ram"
No SSD can beat that...(actually)
But the SSD will retain its data when the machine crashes, or the power goes
out, or when the drummer decides to find out what that button does (it turns
the UPS on and off, doofus). I'd never record to a RAM disk because there's
always an additional step needed to write to the "real" storage. Even if
you use rsync to only write what's new, there may be significant delays while
you do the dump.
In the end,
applied correctly SSDs may speed up your workflow,
but cheap or faulty SSDs may destroy your whole contractors data.
So can bad RAM and/or bad hard drives. In my experience SSDs are now no
more or less prone to problems than any other part of the computer. Backups
should be approached like voting in Chicago - early and often!
For the money
of two cheap SSD(needed for solid performance)
you may buy an old server with wnough ram slots an redundant gigabit(min
2000MB/s) and you are just fine
It'd be extremely hard to find a server that runs quietly enough for a
studio
environment. I have a nice tower that was designed to be as quiet as possible.
Putting SSDs in will allow me to make it even quieter than it is now.
I do agree that having 2 mirrored drives is more secure, though.
9:09 p.m.
New subject: SSD for audio
On Tue, 2 Nov 2010, Benjamin Freitag wrote:
And why is the drummer sitting next to the UPS and you
didnt tell him
he IS THERE FOR DRUMMING, not manipulating your systems?
Hey there, no meanness to drummers! I'm a drummer *and* a sysadmin!
;-)
--
+ Brent A. Busby + "We've all heard that a million monkeys
+ UNIX Systems Admin + banging on a million typewriters will
+ University of Chicago + eventually reproduce the entire works of
+ Physical Sciences Div. + Shakespeare. Now, thanks to the Internet,
+ James Franck Institute + we know this is not true." -Robert Wilensky
9:13 p.m.
New subject: SSD for audio
On Tue, 2 Nov 2010 15:09:25 -0500 (CDT)
Brent Busby <brent(a)keycorner.org> wrote:
On Tue, 2 Nov 2010, Benjamin Freitag wrote:
I purposefully avoided making the story into a drummer joke, though that
particular dimwit did no favors for drummers overall!
--
======================================================================
Joe Hartley - UNIX/network Consultant - jh(a)brainiac.com
Without deviation from the norm, "progress" is not possible. - FZappa
And why is the drummer sitting next to the UPS
and you didnt tell him
he IS THERE FOR DRUMMING, not manipulating your systems?
Hey there, no meanness to drummers! I'm a drummer *and* a sysadmin!
;-)
9:28 p.m.
New subject: SSD for audio
On Tue, 2 Nov 2010, Joe Hartley wrote:
I purposefully avoided making the story into a drummer
joke, though
that particular dimwit did no favors for drummers overall!
Well you know, there's Dave Weckl...
And then there's Animal from the Muppets.
--
+ Brent A. Busby + "We've all heard that a million monkeys
+ UNIX Systems Admin + banging on a million typewriters will
+ University of Chicago + eventually reproduce the entire works of
+ Physical Sciences Div. + Shakespeare. Now, thanks to the Internet,
+ James Franck Institute + we know this is not true." -Robert Wilensky
9:10 p.m.
New subject: SSD for audio
On Tue, 02 Nov 2010 20:12:26 +0100
Benjamin Freitag <benjamin(a)die-guten-partei.de> wrote:
Let's see, 23 years as a UNIX (and later Linux) admin in high-availability
environments, and now a year as a QA engineer at a storage company.
Not secure, i mean speed, ssds still go down in read/write speeds when
you have fragmented disks
Fragmentation can be an issue, but I guess I don't see how 2 drives
alleviates that problem. If they're mirrored, you're still writing all data
to the drives in the order it comes in. You need at least 3 drives for parity
RAID like RAID5 (which is evil anyway), so I'm missing how having a pair of
SSDs decreases fragmentation. Even if I'm writing to multiple files at a
time (such as recording 16 tracks at once with Ardour), the written blocks are
not so spread out that fragmentation would be a major issue for playback, and
overdubs would tend to be even less fragmented since there are fewer tracks
written.
Hey, linux machines dont crash as long as your
proggies are compiled n
programmed correctly.
BWAHAHAHAHAHAAAAAAAAAAAAAA!!!!!
They're computers. They're going to crash. Mine do so very infrequently,
but sometimes they do.
And why is the drummer sitting next to the UPS and you
didnt tell him he
IS THERE FOR DRUMMING, not manipulating your systems?
The drummer was wandering around on a break. I have no idea what made him
push that button. When I asked him why the holy hell he'd done that, he
shrugged and said "I dunno, I wanted to see what it did." My response was that
it just added $25 to his band's session because I had to reboot the systems
and fsck the drives. (I didn't *need* to, but 1) better safe than sorry and
2) consider it a stupidity tax.) He even had to reach down and under the
desk to push it.
So can bad RAM
and/or bad hard drives. In my experience SSDs are now no
more or less prone to problems than any other part of the computer. Backups
should be approached like voting in Chicago - early and often!
And "in your experience" is how many years? The 1.000.000 hrs MTBF is calculated when running 1000
drives for 1000
hrs and one starts to fail,
so every 1000 customers it may happen. Yes wear level algorithms became
better, and yes it all becomes better, but still the testing time was
too low for final statements.
What I'm seeing is a significant reduction in the amount of failures in SSDs
than I saw 2-3 years ago, where an EMC storage system that had been fitted with
32 SSDs (in addition to 100 or so magnetic drives) would lose 2-3 of them each
month. By the time I left, the drives had all been replaced with newer generation
SSDs and the failure rate went down significantly - I only had to have one
replaced in the last 4 months I worked there.
Throw as many MBTF numbers that you want around; the first gen SSDs did not
come close to those manufacturer estimates.
For the money of two cheap SSD(needed for solid
performance)
. . .
I do agree that having 2 mirrored drives is more secure, though.
Security only comes by Backups.
Indeed.
I love SSDs when recording in live venues, because
heavy low subs WILL
kill HDs sooner or later.
Interesting, but it makes sense.
I hate my G.Skill with JMF602b because it had a short
circuit via
USB(faulty port on the disk ) and now all e-mails, bills etc are lost.
Sorry to hear that - I'm particularly careful with my data. I back up each of
my machines nightly to a central server, and the backup partition (which is on
a mirrored pair of drives) is then backed up to an external drive. I've never
lost any data, which would be extremely embarrassing, since I'm always preaching
about backups to my clients and employers! I assume all hardware is crap and
will break sooner ratehr than later! Or, plan for the worst and hope for the best.
--
======================================================================
Joe Hartley - UNIX/network Consultant - jh(a)brainiac.com
Without deviation from the norm, "progress" is not possible. - FZappa
8:30 p.m.
New subject: SSD for audio
On Tuesday 02 November 2010 19:49:28 Joe Hartley wrote:
I do agree that having 2 mirrored drives is more
secure, though.
But only if these are two different disks. Not necessarily different sizes, but
different vendors or at least different production charges...
Arnold
9:07 p.m.
New subject: SSD for audio
On Tue, 2 Nov 2010, Joe Hartley wrote:
But the SSD will retain its data when the machine
crashes, or the
power goes out, or when the drummer decides to find out what that
button does (it turns the UPS on and off, doofus). I'd never record
to a RAM disk because there's always an additional step needed to
write to the "real" storage. Even if you use rsync to only write
what's new, there may be significant delays while you do the dump.
That's all true... Ramdisk is something to use if you're on a machine
with a UPS, a stable kernel, no xruns, etc. And you have to remember to
save your work. Still...imagine the bandwidth! Woo!
--
+ Brent A. Busby + "We've all heard that a million monkeys
+ UNIX Systems Admin + banging on a million typewriters will
+ University of Chicago + eventually reproduce the entire works of
+ Physical Sciences Div. + Shakespeare. Now, thanks to the Internet,
+ James Franck Institute + we know this is not true." -Robert Wilensky
5 Nov
5 Nov
10:09 a.m.
New subject: SSD for audio
Hi,
So if you go for the SSD drives, don't go for a cheap one and backup
properly.
Do you install you Linux basesystem and home partition on a SSD drive?
Or should I only use a SSD for (hot) audio projects?
About the backups. Is a backup via network to a server good enough? It's
nice to have a fast and silent drive, but this effect fades away when
you need a other backup hdd next to it.
I was also thinking to use a SSD in my laptop, which I also use as
soundmodule e.g. playing piano with it for instance, and backup via
network. Good idea?
Best regards,
\r
3:42 p.m.
New subject: SSD for audio
On Fri, 05 Nov 2010 08:09:36 +0100
"rosea.grammostola" <rosea.grammostola(a)gmail.com> wrote:
Do you install you Linux basesystem and home partition
on a SSD drive?
Or should I only use a SSD for (hot) audio projects?
I just installed 2 SATA drives in my studio system to replace the 3 ATA
drives in there now: an 80 GB for the current projects and a 500 GB 2.5"
mag drive for the OS and all the non-live projects. This then all gets
backed up over the network. I'm going to pull the power to the ATA drives
today and see how much it changes the noise generated.
I was also thinking to use a SSD in my laptop, which I
also use as
soundmodule e.g. playing piano with it for instance, and backup via
network. Good idea?
Certainly not a bad one, I'll be trying that myself before long even
though I don't use the laptop for music.
--
======================================================================
Joe Hartley - UNIX/network Consultant - jh(a)brainiac.com
Without deviation from the norm, "progress" is not possible. - FZappa
6 Nov
6 Nov
2:34 p.m.
New subject: SSD for audio
On 11/05/2010 03:42 PM, Joe Hartley wrote:
Hmm when I set cpu scaling on performance, the fan of my T61 makes to
much noise for a SSD to be valuable...
\r
On Fri, 05 Nov 2010 08:09:36 +0100
"rosea.grammostola"<rosea.grammostola(a)gmail.com> wrote:
This is SSD? Why 2.5" and not 3.5"
Which size SSD is recommended for a Desktop pc?
Do you install you Linux basesystem and home
partition on a SSD drive?
Or should I only use a SSD for (hot) audio projects?
I just installed 2 SATA drives in my studio system to replace the 3 ATA
drives in there now: an 80 GB for the current projects and a 500 GB 2.5"
mag drive for the OS and all the non-live projects. This then all gets
backed up over the network. I'm going to pull the power to the ATA drives
today and see how much it changes the noise generated.
I was also thinking to use a SSD in my laptop,
which I also use as
soundmodule e.g. playing piano with it for instance, and backup via
network. Good idea?
Certainly not a bad one, I'll be trying that myself before long even
though I don't use the laptop for music.
8 Nov
8 Nov
5:24 p.m.
New subject: SSD for audio
On Sat, 06 Nov 2010 14:34:32 +0100
"rosea.grammostola" <rosea.grammostola(a)gmail.com> wrote:
On 11/05/2010 03:42 PM, Joe Hartley wrote:
I went with the smaller drives for a few reasons. One is that the smaller
drives are easily obtainable for me. My company makes storage systems that
use 2.5" drives exclusively, and have proven the 2.5" drives (at least the
Constellations) to be both performant and rugged enough for the task, so I
wasn't worried about the smaller drives lacking in that regard. The other
issue was that I didn't have room for any more larger drives (though I'll be
able to pull them now that the system has proved itself), but I did have room
for the 2.5" drives.
I just installed 2 SATA drives in my studio
system to replace the 3 ATA
drives in there now: an 80 GB for the current projects and a 500 GB 2.5"
mag drive for the OS and all the non-live projects. This then all gets
backed up over the network. I'm going to pull the power to the ATA drives
today and see how much it changes the noise generated.
This is SSD? Why 2.5" and not 3.5"
Which size SSD is recommended for a Desktop pc? Hmm when I set cpu scaling on performance, the fan of
my T61 makes to
much noise for a SSD to be valuable...
I've been trying to resurrect a T61 a friend had given to me. It's got a
known issue with the onboard video memory, so the only real fix is a mobo
replacement, but in researching that, I found that there's a known issue with
the T61 and fan noise. Check out the website
http://www.thinkwiki.org/wiki/How_to_control_fan_speed
There seem to some things that can be done to minimize it. Good luck!
--
======================================================================
Joe Hartley - UNIX/network Consultant - jh(a)brainiac.com
Without deviation from the norm, "progress" is not possible. - FZappa
30 Nov
30 Nov
7:34 p.m.
New subject: SSD for audio
On 11/08/2010 05:24 PM, Joe Hartley wrote:
On Sat, 06 Nov 2010 14:34:32 +0100
"rosea.grammostola"<rosea.grammostola(a)gmail.com> wrote:
Are ssd drives cooler then normal hdd's?
A normal hdd gets damaged at 55 degrees Celsius more or less, how is
that for ssd?
\r
On 11/05/2010 03:42 PM, Joe Hartley wrote:
I went with the smaller drives for a few reasons. One is that the smaller
drives are easily obtainable for me. My company makes storage systems that
use 2.5" drives exclusively, and have proven the 2.5" drives (at least the
Constellations) to be both performant and rugged enough for the task, so I
wasn't worried about the smaller drives lacking in that regard. The other
issue was that I didn't have room for any more larger drives (though I'll be
able to pull them now that the system has proved itself), but I did have room
for the 2.5" drives.
I just installed 2 SATA drives in my studio
system to replace the 3 ATA
drives in there now: an 80 GB for the current projects and a 500 GB 2.5"
mag drive for the OS and all the non-live projects. This then all gets
backed up over the network. I'm going to pull the power to the ATA drives
today and see how much it changes the noise generated.
This is SSD? Why 2.5" and not 3.5"
Which size SSD is recommended for a Desktop pc?
Hmm when I set cpu scaling on performance, the
fan of my T61 makes to
much noise for a SSD to be valuable...
I've been trying to resurrect a T61 a friend had given to me. It's
got a
known issue with the onboard video memory, so the only real fix is a mobo
replacement, but in researching that, I found that there's a known issue with
the T61 and fan noise. Check out the website
http://www.thinkwiki.org/wiki/How_to_control_fan_speed
There seem to some things that can be done to minimize it. Good luck!
7:52 p.m.
New subject: SSD for audio
On Tue, 30 Nov 2010 19:34:06 +0100
"rosea.grammostola" <rosea.grammostola(a)gmail.com> wrote:
Are ssd drives cooler then normal hdd's?
A normal hdd gets damaged at 55 degrees Celsius more or less, how is
that for ssd?
In my experiences, SSDs run much cooler than magnetic hard drives.
The operating temperatures for SSDs tend to match MHDs. If anything,
a system with SSDs will run a bit cooler than one with MHDs.
--
======================================================================
Joe Hartley - UNIX/network Consultant - jh(a)brainiac.com
Without deviation from the norm, "progress" is not possible. - FZappa
8:06 p.m.
New subject: SSD for audio
On Tuesday 30 November 2010 19:34:06 rosea.grammostola wrote:
On 11/08/2010 05:24 PM, Joe Hartley wrote:
90°C are the max for hdd (there the magnetism is lost). 55°C is very well
possible, though not recommended. It certainly doesn't degrade the disk.
SSD are nice as they are faster for seeking. Continuous transfer-rates with
are about the same for ssd and hdd at least in the range where they aren't to
pricey for normal people.
If you want to use one: Use it for the current projects you are working on.
Leave the operating system on the traditional hdd. You boot your os only once
a day. Once ardour is running, the current project is reading many chunks of
data from different files in rapid succession. Exactly what the main advantage
of ssd is...
Have fun,
Arnold
On Sat, 06 Nov 2010 14:34:32 +0100
"rosea.grammostola"<rosea.grammostola(a)gmail.com> wrote:
Are ssd drives cooler then normal hdd's?
A normal hdd gets damaged at 55 degrees Celsius more or less, how is
that for ssd? On 11/05/2010 03:42 PM, Joe Hartley wrote:
I went with the smaller drives for a few reasons. One is that the
smaller drives are easily obtainable for me. My company makes storage
systems that use 2.5" drives exclusively, and have proven the 2.5"
drives (at least the Constellations) to be both performant and rugged
enough for the task, so I wasn't worried about the smaller drives
lacking in that regard. The other issue was that I didn't have room for
any more larger drives (though I'll be able to pull them now that the
system has proved itself), but I did have room for the 2.5" drives.
I just installed 2 SATA drives in my studio
system to replace the 3 ATA
drives in there now: an 80 GB for the current projects and a 500 GB
2.5" mag drive for the OS and all the non-live projects. This then
all gets backed up over the network. I'm going to pull the power to
the ATA drives today and see how much it changes the noise generated.
This is SSD? Why 2.5" and not 3.5"
Which size SSD is recommended for a Desktop pc? Hmm when I set cpu scaling on performance, the
fan of my T61 makes to
much noise for a SSD to be valuable...
I've been trying to resurrect a T61 a friend had given to me. It's got a
known issue with the onboard video memory, so the only real fix is a mobo
replacement, but in researching that, I found that there's a known issue
with the T61 and fan noise. Check out the website
http://www.thinkwiki.org/wiki/How_to_control_fan_speed
There seem to some things that can be done to minimize it. Good luck!
8:20 p.m.
New subject: SSD for audio
On Tue, 30 Nov 2010 20:06:32 +0100
Arnold Krille <arnold(a)arnoldarts.de> wrote:
If you want to use one: Use it for the current
projects you are working on.
Leave the operating system on the traditional hdd. You boot your os only once
a day. Once ardour is running, the current project is reading many chunks of
data from different files in rapid succession. Exactly what the main advantage
of ssd is...
This is exactly how I've just upgraded my studio machine. I replaced 3 IDE HDDs
with a total of ~300GB of storage with 2 SATA drives - a 500GB 2.5" Seagate
Constellation and an 80GB Intel X25-M drive.
The 500GB drive has 3 bootable partitions so I can muck around with various
Linux distros and versions without messing up my real studio environment, and
a big partition for general storage. Working sessions are in the /tape partiton
on the 80GB drive.
I've had three sessions in the studio since the upgrade and it's been working
flawlessly, even though it's just got a 3GHz Pentium 4 as the CPU.
A side note: since these were overdub sessions, I really didn't want to be around
the corner from where the musicians were set up, since I figured that'd hamper
communications. X11VNC and my laptop to the rescue! I displayed the studio's
desktop over to the wireless laptop, and was able to sit right in the performing
area and control the transport remotely. Folks were very impressed.
--
======================================================================
Joe Hartley - UNIX/network Consultant - jh(a)brainiac.com
Without deviation from the norm, "progress" is not possible. - FZappa
17 Dec
17 Dec
1:39 p.m.
New subject: SSD for audio
Hi,
Does a SSD drive need a special filesystem and/ or mount options?
Regards,
\r
2:02 p.m.
New subject: SSD for audio
On Fri, 17 Dec 2010 13:39:49 +0100
"rosea.grammostola" <rosea.grammostola(a)gmail.com> wrote:
Does a SSD drive need a special filesystem and/ or
mount options?
No, it's configured exactly like a magnetic hard drive would be.
--
======================================================================
Joe Hartley - UNIX/network Consultant - jh(a)brainiac.com
Without deviation from the norm, "progress" is not possible. - FZappa
2:14 p.m.
New subject: SSD for audio
Excerpts from Joe Hartley's message of 2010-12-17 14:02:16 +0100:
On Fri, 17 Dec 2010 13:39:49 +0100
"rosea.grammostola" <rosea.grammostola(a)gmail.com> wrote:
I have a little question as well: Can a laptop HD be replaced
with a SSD without trouble?
Does a SSD drive need a special filesystem and/
or mount options?
No, it's configured exactly like a magnetic hard drive would be.
2:20 p.m.
New subject: SSD for audio
On Fri, 17 Dec 2010 14:14:48 +0100
Philipp Überbacher <hollunder(a)lavabit.com> wrote:
I have a little question as well: Can a laptop HD be
replaced
with a SSD without trouble?
Yes.
--
======================================================================
Joe Hartley - UNIX/network Consultant - jh(a)brainiac.com
Without deviation from the norm, "progress" is not possible. - FZappa
2:22 p.m.
New subject: SSD for audio
On Fri, 17 Dec 2010 14:14:48 +0100
Philipp Überbacher <hollunder(a)lavabit.com> wrote:
I have a little question as well: Can a laptop HD be
replaced
with a SSD without trouble
A slightly longer answer: Yes, as long as the laptop supports SATA. I
thought I'd replace the drive in my ThinkPad T43, but it uses an older
type drive with a very different connector, so obviously that didn't work
for me.
--
======================================================================
Joe Hartley - UNIX/network Consultant - jh(a)brainiac.com
Without deviation from the norm, "progress" is not possible. - FZappa
3:34 p.m.
New subject: SSD for audio
On Fri, Dec 17, 2010 at 5:22 AM, Joe Hartley <jh(a)brainiac.com> wrote:
On Fri, 17 Dec 2010 14:14:48 +0100
Philipp Überbacher <hollunder(a)lavabit.com> wrote:
I had a Compaq laptop that looked like it had a different connector.
Turned out that Compaq attaced a different connector to the SATA port
before inserting it into the machine's drive port. Possibly your
ThinkPad is similar?
- Mark
I have a little question as well: Can a laptop HD
be replaced
with a SSD without trouble
A slightly longer answer: Yes, as long as the laptop supports SATA. I
thought I'd replace the drive in my ThinkPad T43, but it uses an older
type drive with a very different connector, so obviously that didn't work
for me. 
3:46 p.m.
New subject: SSD for audio
On 17 December 2010 22:34, Mark Knecht <markknecht(a)gmail.com> wrote:
On Fri, Dec 17, 2010 at 5:22 AM, Joe Hartley
<jh(a)brainiac.com> wrote:
Laptops either have SATA or IDE. Both types of connections are of a
different form factor compared to their 3.5" counterparts. However, on
first look, the SATA one would give you the impression that you can't
just buy another disk and put it in there. That's because there's an
extra attachment to the existing disk that needs to be taken out and
slotted onto the new one.
I don't know whether this has been mentioned yet, but you could get a
CompactFlash card and an adapter to mimic solid state storage. You
have to look out for good performance cards, though. They're much,
much cheaper (inclusive of the cost of the adapter) than a full SSD,
and not so far away in speed.
http://www.google.com/search?sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8&q=compactflas…
--
GPG/PGP ID: B42DDCAD
On Fri, 17 Dec 2010 14:14:48 +0100
Philipp Überbacher <hollunder(a)lavabit.com> wrote:
I had a Compaq laptop that looked like it had a different connector.
Turned out that Compaq attaced a different connector to the SATA port
before inserting it into the machine's drive port. Possibly your
ThinkPad is similar? I have a little question as well: Can a laptop HD
be replaced
with a SSD without trouble
A slightly longer answer: Yes, as long as the laptop supports SATA. I
thought I'd replace the drive in my ThinkPad T43, but it uses an older
type drive with a very different connector, so obviously that didn't work
for me.
3:48 p.m.
New subject: SSD for audio
On 12/17/10 15:46, Ray Rashif wrote:
That is not correct. One of the main advantages of the SATA connectors
is that the power and data connectors are identical for 2.5" and 3.5"
drives.
Flo
--
Machines can do the work, so people have time to think.
public key DA43FEF4 x-hkp://wwwkeys.eu.pgp.net
I had a Compaq
laptop that looked like it had a different connector.
Turned out that Compaq attaced a different connector to the SATA port
before inserting it into the machine's drive port. Possibly your
ThinkPad is similar?
Laptops either have SATA or IDE. Both types of connections
are of a
different form factor compared to their 3.5" counterparts.
3:51 p.m.
New subject: SSD for audio
On Fri, Dec 17, 2010 at 6:46 AM, Ray Rashif <schivmeister(a)gmail.com> wrote:
On 17 December 2010 22:34, Mark Knecht
<markknecht(a)gmail.com> wrote:
So we're in agreement, right?
- Mark
On Fri, Dec 17, 2010 at 5:22 AM, Joe Hartley
<jh(a)brainiac.com> wrote:
Laptops either have SATA or IDE. Both types of connections are of a
different form factor compared to their 3.5" counterparts. However, on
first look, the SATA one would give you the impression that you can't
just buy another disk and put it in there. That's because there's an
extra attachment to the existing disk that needs to be taken out and
slotted onto the new one. On Fri, 17 Dec 2010 14:14:48 +0100
Philipp Überbacher <hollunder(a)lavabit.com> wrote:
I had a Compaq laptop that looked like it had a different connector.
Turned out that Compaq attaced a different connector to the SATA port
before inserting it into the machine's drive port. Possibly your
ThinkPad is similar? I have a little question as well: Can a laptop HD
be replaced
with a SSD without trouble
A slightly longer answer: Yes, as long as the laptop supports SATA. I
thought I'd replace the drive in my ThinkPad T43, but it uses an older
type drive with a very different connector, so obviously that didn't work
for me.
4:25 p.m.
New subject: SSD for audio
On Friday 17 December 2010 15:46:06 Ray Rashif wrote:
On 17 December 2010 22:34, Mark Knecht
<markknecht(a)gmail.com> wrote:
Nope, sata is sata is sata. Its standard. Not only the shape of the connector
is the same for all 2.5" and 3.5" disks, the position with respect to the
lower left edge of the drive (looking at the connector) is the same too.
Pretty neat for exchanging disks without the need for a tray...
There could be issues when the 3.5" disk wants 12V while the adaptor meant for
2.5" disks via usb only has 5V...
Have fun,
Arnold
On Fri, Dec 17, 2010 at 5:22 AM, Joe Hartley
<jh(a)brainiac.com> wrote:
Laptops either have SATA or IDE. Both types of connections are of a
different form factor compared to their 3.5" counterparts. On Fri, 17 Dec 2010 14:14:48 +0100
Philipp Überbacher <hollunder(a)lavabit.com> wrote:
I had a Compaq laptop that looked like it had a different connector.
Turned out that Compaq attaced a different connector to the SATA port
before inserting it into the machine's drive port. Possibly your
ThinkPad is similar? I have a little question as well: Can a laptop HD
be replaced
with a SSD without trouble
A slightly longer answer: Yes, as long as the laptop supports SATA. I
thought I'd replace the drive in my ThinkPad T43, but it uses an older
type drive with a very different connector, so obviously that didn't
work for me.
6:25 p.m.
New subject: SSD for audio
On 17 December 2010 23:25, Arnold Krille <arnold(a)arnoldarts.de> wrote:
On Friday 17 December 2010 15:46:06 Ray Rashif wrote:
Uhmm..I was refering to the fact that you can't put a 3.5 there. You
cannot slot the extra attachment onto the 3.5 and expect to drop it
in. You can, however, plug in the 2.5 to the desktop using the SATA
cables, AFTER you take off the attachment meant for the laptop,
enclosed in a bay/tray.
--
GPG/PGP ID: B42DDCAD
On 17 December 2010 22:34, Mark Knecht
<markknecht(a)gmail.com> wrote:
Nope, sata is sata is sata. Its standard. Not only the shape of the connector
is the same for all 2.5" and 3.5" disks, the position with respect to the
lower left edge of the drive (looking at the connector) is the same too.
Pretty neat for exchanging disks without the need for a tray...
There could be issues when the 3.5" disk wants 12V while the adaptor meant for
2.5" disks via usb only has 5V... On Fri, Dec 17, 2010 at 5:22 AM, Joe Hartley
<jh(a)brainiac.com> wrote:
Laptops either have SATA or IDE. Both types of connections are of a
different form factor compared to their 3.5" counterparts. On Fri, 17 Dec 2010 14:14:48 +0100
Philipp Überbacher <hollunder(a)lavabit.com> wrote:
> I have a little question as well: Can a laptop HD be replaced
> with a SSD without trouble
A slightly longer answer: Yes, as long as the laptop supports SATA. I
thought I'd replace the drive in my ThinkPad T43, but it uses an older
type drive with a very different connector, so obviously that didn't
work for me.
I had a Compaq laptop that looked like it had a different connector.
Turned out that Compaq attaced a different connector to the SATA port
before inserting it into the machine's drive port. Possibly your
ThinkPad is similar?
4:35 p.m.
New subject: SSD for audio
On Fri, 17 Dec 2010 06:34:03 -0800
Mark Knecht <markknecht(a)gmail.com> wrote:
On Fri, Dec 17, 2010 at 5:22 AM, Joe Hartley
<jh(a)brainiac.com> wrote:
No, my T43 uses an IDE drive. I was undercaffeinated and couldn't
remember the acronym at that time of the morning!
--
======================================================================
Joe Hartley - UNIX/network Consultant - jh(a)brainiac.com
Without deviation from the norm, "progress" is not possible. - FZappa
I thought I'd replace the drive in my
ThinkPad T43, but it uses an older
type drive with a very different connector, so obviously that didn't work
for me.
I had a Compaq laptop that looked like it had a different connector.
Turned out that Compaq attaced a different connector to the SATA port
before inserting it into the machine's drive port. Possibly your
ThinkPad is similar? 
18 Dec
18 Dec
3:51 a.m.
New subject: SSD for audio
On Fri, Dec 17, 2010 at 5:02 AM, Joe Hartley <jh(a)brainiac.com> wrote:
On Fri, 17 Dec 2010 13:39:49 +0100
"rosea.grammostola" <rosea.grammostola(a)gmail.com> wrote:
Except if you're using BTRFS, like on the Meego, which is optimized for SSDs:
https://btrfs.wiki.kernel.org/index.php/FAQ#Is_Btrfs_optimized_for_SSD.3F
Is Btrfs optimized for SSD?
There are some optimizations for SSD drives, and you can enable them
by mounting with -o ssd. As of 2.6.31-rc1, this mount option will be
enabled if Btrfs is able to detect non-rotating storage. SSD is going
to be a big part of future storage, and the Btrfs developers plan on
tuning for it heavily.
See also http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=article&item=btrfs_ssd_mode&n…
-- Niels
http://nielsmayer.com
Does a SSD drive need a special filesystem and/
or mount options?
No, it's configured exactly like a magnetic hard drive would be.
17 Dec
17 Dec
3:43 p.m.
New subject: SSD for audio
On 12/17/10 13:39, rosea.grammostola wrote:
Does a SSD drive need a special filesystem and/ or
mount options?
If you want to use all features - yes:
- You are restricted to ext4 and btrfs for the moment as they are the
only file systems that can issue the TRIM command
- you have to run the SATA controller in AHCI mode to be able to support
TRIM (and NCQ etc.)
- you should align your partitions to the block size of the SSD and
- tell your FS that it is running on a SSD ('ssd' mount option for
btrfs, don't know about ext4).
Of course you use your SSD as you would do with a HDD, but the
performance will degrade.
Flo
--
Machines can do the work, so people have time to think.
public key DA43FEF4 x-hkp://wwwkeys.eu.pgp.net
3:44 p.m.
New subject: SSD for audio
On 12/17/10 15:43, Florian Faber wrote:
On 12/17/10 13:39, rosea.grammostola wrote:
Of course you use your SSD as you would do with a HDD,
but the
'can use'
performance will degrade.
Flo
--
Machines can do the work, so people have time to think.
public key DA43FEF4 x-hkp://wwwkeys.eu.pgp.net
4:02 p.m.
New subject: SSD for audio
On Fri, 17 Dec 2010 15:43:25 +0100
Florian Faber <faber(a)faberman.de> wrote:
If you want to use all features - yes:
- You are restricted to ext4 and btrfs for the moment as they are the
only file systems that can issue the TRIM command
- you have to run the SATA controller in AHCI mode to be able to support
TRIM (and NCQ etc.)
- you should align your partitions to the block size of the SSD and
- tell your FS that it is running on a SSD ('ssd' mount option for
btrfs, don't know about ext4).
Clearly I have more research to do - thanks for the information.
--
======================================================================
Joe Hartley - UNIX/network Consultant - jh(a)brainiac.com
Without deviation from the norm, "progress" is not possible. - FZappa
3 Jan
3 Jan
11:57 p.m.
New subject: SSD for audio
On 17/12/10 13:39, rosea.grammostola wrote:
Hi,
Does a SSD drive need a special filesystem and/ or mount options?
I use a SSD in my laptop with both ext3 and ext4, and additional mount
options: noatime,nodiratime. This is not absolutely necessary, but it
reduces the number of write cycles.
It is also wise to discourage swapping, and if you are using a
journalling system (such as ext3, ext4) _and_ everything is stable, you
can increase the commit interval.
See also here:
http://forums.fedoraforum.org/showthread.php?t=215109
(look for "Economise the SSD")
The SSD will work fine without any of this, but it may work longer if
you add some extra options.
/ Hans
2 Nov
2 Nov
8:34 p.m.
New subject: SSD for audio
On 11/02/10 19:19, Benjamin Freitag wrote:
THE BIG BUT is when your SSD has firmware bugs, [..]
I have a hot tip for you: Don't buy crap.
"Hey, SSDs dont crash as long as they are designed n
programmed correctly."
Flo
--
Machines can do the work, so people have time to think.
public key DA43FEF4 x-hkp://wwwkeys.eu.pgp.net
9:03 p.m.
New subject: SSD for audio
On Tue, 2 Nov 2010, Benjamin Freitag wrote:
If you need high speed access(e.g. live transmission),
become aware
how cheap ram is today, and try to use something like the following
command: "mount -o size=2000M -t tmpfs none /media/ram"
No SSD can beat that...(actually)
Ah, looks like somebody already beat me to that thought... :)
Still, I like the idea very much. In fact, I may never record to disk
again if this works out well.
--
+ Brent A. Busby + "We've all heard that a million monkeys
+ UNIX Systems Admin + banging on a million typewriters will
+ University of Chicago + eventually reproduce the entire works of
+ Physical Sciences Div. + Shakespeare. Now, thanks to the Internet,
+ James Franck Institute + we know this is not true." -Robert Wilensky
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days inactive
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linux-audio-user@lists.linuxaudio.org
47 comments
15 participants
participants (15)
-
Allan Wind -
Arnold Krille -
Benjamin Freitag -
Brent Busby -
david -
Florian Faber -
fons＠kokkinizita.net -
Hans Wilmers -
Harry Van Haaren -
Joe Hartley -
Mark Knecht -
Niels Mayer -
Philipp Überbacher -
Ray Rashif -
rosea.grammostola