8 Apr
2014
8 Apr
'14
7:34 a.m.
In the past, I've sorta DIY'd my home machines -- sorta because it's
been more integration than building. Most of the parts would come from
some vendor like Newegg; but the processor+cooling/motherboard/memory
would come from the now long-departed Monarch Computer. The part of
building that scared me was doing a good job coupling the heatsink to
the processor; Monarch sold processor/motherboard combos where they'd
taken care of that, and tested the combo to make sure it was happy
before sending it to you. And their prices were good and they were
reliable. So, I'd do a little research on motherboards, pick a couple
of candidates, then google to see whether other folks were using those
motherboards with Linux and what experiences they were having. And if
it all looked good, I'd order it all and do the final integration, and
I've never had any problems, including with Linux/hardware
compatibility.
However, it's been quite a while since I did this the last time, mainly
because the machine I have now has done me pretty good. But I'm ready
to replace my machine, and apparently two things have happened since
the last time:
- Monarch became an unreliable company, then went bust;
- I became insanely busy all the time, and less motivated (but not
completely unmotivated) to build.
So, I'm looking to find out about hardware vendors. Specifically, I
want to know about:
1. folks selling fully-built machines with Linux in mind, so that
there'll be no real worries about any hardware compatibility issues;
2. folks selling motherboard/processor combos that they test before
shipping to the customer, like Monarch did back when they were still
around and reliable.
In case it matters, I tend to go for as souped-up a home machine as I
can, and then ride it for a long time. The machine I end up with will
be used for Linux audio, with an Audiofire 8 interface that'll connect
to the machine by Firewire. So obviously it's going to need to have low
latencies in mind. It'll also get used for gaming, and for code
development for scientific computing. I dunno whether it's even an
option anymore, but having one legacy PCI slot around would be nice,
but isn't a dealbreaker if that's just too obsolete.
Any suggestions on vendors to look at, or sources of information on
build options (I used to start at Tom's Hardware and Anandtech years
ago; dunno if they're still the best choices), would all be greatly
appreciated.
Thanks much!
-c
--
Chris Metzler cmetzler(a)speakeasy.snip-me.net
(remove "snip-me." to email)
"As a child I understood how to give; I have forgotten this grace since
I have become civilized." - Chief Luther Standing Bear
8 Apr
8 Apr
8:59 a.m.
On Tue, April 8, 2014 3:44 pm, Chris Metzler wrote:
In the past, I've sorta DIY'd my home machines -- sorta because it's
been more integration than building. Most of the parts would come from
some vendor like Newegg; but the processor+cooling/motherboard/memory
would come from the now long-departed Monarch Computer. The part of
building that scared me was doing a good job coupling the heatsink to
the processor; Monarch sold processor/motherboard combos where they'd
taken care of that, and tested the combo to make sure it was happy
before sending it to you. And their prices were good and they were
reliable. So, I'd do a little research on motherboards, pick a couple
of candidates, then google to see whether other folks were using those
motherboards with Linux and what experiences they were having. And if
it all looked good, I'd order it all and do the final integration, and
I've never had any problems, including with Linux/hardware
compatibility.
However, it's been quite a while since I did this the last time, mainly
because the machine I have now has done me pretty good. But I'm ready
to replace my machine, and apparently two things have happened since
the last time:
- Monarch became an unreliable company, then went bust;
- I became insanely busy all the time, and less motivated (but not
completely unmotivated) to build.
So, I'm looking to find out about hardware vendors. Specifically, I
want to know about:
1. folks selling fully-built machines with Linux in mind, so that
there'll be no real worries about any hardware compatibility issues;
2. folks selling motherboard/processor combos that they test before
shipping to the customer, like Monarch did back when they were still
around and reliable.
In case it matters, I tend to go for as souped-up a home machine as I
can, and then ride it for a long time. The machine I end up with will
be used for Linux audio, with an Audiofire 8 interface that'll connect
to the machine by Firewire. So obviously it's going to need to have low
latencies in mind. It'll also get used for gaming, and for code
development for scientific computing. I dunno whether it's even an
option anymore, but having one legacy PCI slot around would be nice,
but isn't a dealbreaker if that's just too obsolete.
Any suggestions on vendors to look at, or sources of information on
build options (I used to start at Tom's Hardware and Anandtech years
ago; dunno if they're still the best choices), would all be greatly
appreciated.
Thanks much!
I have found the Intel NUC range is well supported by Intel and has the
power to do the job. They have a dedicated support channel and were able
to quickly roll out firmware updates based on my feedback.
Another option is an ASUS mini-itx board in a Shuttle case. If you go that
route you will also be able to install an ATI or NVidia GPU and leverage
the power of openCL support in ffmpeg.
If you want a well supported board then you should probably stay away from
AMD. They are getting worse not better. But if you do choose AMD the
fusion chips offer reasonable performance vs cost/power consumption. Just
don't expect any real support from AMD. Even the open source drivers are
developed by NVidia devs in their spare time.
If you just want a decent low cost machine that gives you all the power
you need then the NUC's are hard to beat. Gigabyte are also competing with
the same form factor but I haven't tested their offering yet. It looks
like they are using the reference design for the NUC though so it should
be well supported.
FYI, several LAD's have also looked into the various Android devices that
are on the market. I have found that the ARM Chips are just not powerful
enough for serious professional work but they are very good at handling
specific use cases especially for things like fx boxes or dedicated
machines running specific low latency tasks.
If you are interested in visual multimedia the difference between the
graphics on an ARM board versus the NUC or a dedicated ATI/NVIdia GPU is a
non starter. The ARM boards are not pbscene but the quality difference is
noticeable. I have found the low end NUCs can handle full screen 1080p at
around 25 fps for a modern 3d engine which allows to capture almost decent
1080p video but a more powerful GPU can handle 200FPS on the same engine.
If you are into gaming the low end NUC's will allow you to play but you
will want a more powerful model to have the optimum experience. In that
case I recommend looking into the i3/i5 models.
You can get a pcie card for firewire support.
Failing all of the above a new ultrabook might give you performance and
mobility but the price difference is substantial.
--
Patrick Shirkey
Boost Hardware Ltd
10:58 p.m.
New subject: Advice needed: hardware vendors
On Tue, Apr 8, 2014 at 1:59 AM, Patrick Shirkey
<pshirkey(a)boosthardware.com> wrote:
On Tue, April 8, 2014 3:44 pm, Chris Metzler wrote:
>
> In the past, I've sorta DIY'd my home machines -- sorta because it's
> been more integration than building. Most of the parts would come from
> some vendor like Newegg; but the processor+cooling/motherboard/memory
> would come from the now long-departed Monarch Computer. The part of
> building that scared me was doing a good job coupling the heatsink to
> the processor; Monarch sold processor/motherboard combos where they'd
> taken care of that, and tested the combo to make sure it was happy
> before sending it to you.
Don't worry too much. Attaching the CPU and heatsink is not difficult
and poses no serious risks. Use only an amount of thermal grease
about the size of a grain of cooked rice and don't spread.
If you want a well supported board then you should
probably stay away from
AMD. They are getting worse not better. But if you do choose AMD the
fusion chips offer reasonable performance vs cost/power consumption. Just
don't expect any real support from AMD. Even the open source drivers are
developed by NVidia devs in their spare time.
I've been curious about building an AMD APU system. For those who
don't know about the recently released APU's: AMD's Kaveri line
features a shared memory architecture for CPU and GPU, which
eliminates data transfer (and the need for code that explicitly pins
memory for the GPU). It's a very interesting step forward for General
Purpose Graphical Processing Unit (GPGPU) computing using OpenCL, as
it eliminates the single biggest bottleneck for GPGPU. Only the first
two Kaveri chips have been released so far, and the benchmarks have
been underwhelming. Still, keep an eye out.
The OpenCL libraries are provided by AMD with their proprietary
driver--this is always the case, as OpenCL is an open standard, not an
open source project.
11:59 p.m.
New subject: Advice needed: hardware vendors
Hello,
On 04/08/2014 10:58 PM, Charles Z Henry wrote:
Don't worry too much. Attaching the CPU and heatsink is not difficult
and poses no serious risks. Use only an amount of thermal grease
about the size of a grain of cooked rice and don't spread.
unless ingested. If the thermal grease contains beryllium oxide keep
in mind that it is toxic.
hth,
tee
11:39 p.m.
On Tue, 8 Apr 2014, Chris Metzler wrote:
So, I'm looking to find out about hardware
vendors. Specifically, I
want to know about:
1. folks selling fully-built machines with Linux in mind, so that
there'll be no real worries about any hardware compatibility issues;
2. folks selling motherboard/processor combos that they test before
shipping to the customer, like Monarch did back when they were still
around and reliable.
In case it matters, I tend to go for as souped-up a home machine as I
can, and then ride it for a long time. The machine I end up with will
be used for Linux audio, with an Audiofire 8 interface that'll connect
to the machine by Firewire. So obviously it's going to need to have low
latencies in mind. It'll also get used for gaming, and for code
development for scientific computing. I dunno whether it's even an
option anymore, but having one legacy PCI slot around would be nice,
but isn't a dealbreaker if that's just too obsolete.
I am certainly not an expert, but I have learned a few things and tend to
build all my machines rather than buy. The first thing to point out is
that gaming and low latency are two very different needs. Gaming is well
supported, but low latency is not (in any OS). When looking at a cpu for
low latency, the cheaper cpu with no hyperthreading will give better low
latency all else being equal. Most all in one cpu/gpu/etc chips are not
good for low latency (unless something new is any better) because these
kind of cpus the extra stuff on the chip steals time from the cpu outside
of the OS knowledge/control.
I can't remember where right now, but there is a real time site that has
latency results for a lot of mother board cpu combinations, I think I
actually got it from someone on this list.
PCI slots seem to have become a problem, they seem to be PCIe bridged
slots on most new MB.
A flexable BIOS can be very helpful for getting good low latency
performance.
Expect to run your CPU at a lower speed than full for audio work. This can
be set on the fly so speed can be ondemand for gaming and set to 70-80%
full speed for audio. Many people just set performance mode for audio, but
this may make things too hot and the cpu temp sensor may change the cpu
speed on you in the middle of your best take giving a glitch. I have found
that even running my MB at half speed I get better latency/no xruns as
compaired to the faster ondemand setting. The main thing is to force a
single speed for audio while not creating too much heat. The MB/CPU
manufactures seem to have learned a lot from the overclocking crowd and
most new MB effectively over clock all the time and regulate the speed by
temperature. We don't want to do that for audio.
Intel GPUs are open but nvidia seem to perform better and Linux drivers
are available. The choice here is how close you want to stick to all open
SW. I have not heard anything to recomend AMD GPUs and so I have no
experience with them either. The intel video on the atom boards are not
open and poorly supported, but I didn't think you were buying one of these
anyway even though their low latency performance is quite good. (can be
anyway)
Firewire ports don't come on MB that I have seen, Make sure you can get an
interface that will fit whatever MB you want to use.
--
Len Ovens
www.ovenwerks.net
9 Apr
9 Apr
1 a.m.
New subject: Advice needed: hardware vendors
On Tue, Apr 8, 2014 at 4:34 PM, Len Ovens <len(a)ovenwerks.net> wrote:
I have not heard anything to recomend AMD GPUs and so
I have no experience
with them either.
My daily driver is a six-month-old AMD based HP laptop. I regret it every
day. Driver support (both Free and proprietary) for this chipset (Richland
series) stinks.
Last time I tried a newer driver than the one in Mint repository I had to
reinstall the OS.
Neil
--
DJ Dual Core's Blog
http://oldmixtapes.blogspot.com/
Order without government; Peace without violence.
2:30 a.m.
New subject: Advice needed: hardware vendors
On Tue, 8 Apr 2014, Chris Metzler wrote:
> So, I'm looking to find out about hardware vendors. Specifically, I
> want to know about:
>
> 1. folks selling fully-built machines with Linux in mind, so that
> there'll be no real worries about any hardware compatibility issues;
Almost 2 yrs ago I got a custom configured machine from
http://www.endpcnoise.com/ that's been running very nicely.
They installed Ubuntu on it.
--
Kevin
3:47 a.m.
New subject: Advice needed: hardware vendors
On Tue, 8 Apr 2014, Kevin Cosgrove wrote:
Those all look nice. Which video card did you use? They look to sell all
ATI video cards and don't mention what the "onboard video" interface is.
How well does it (the video) work with Linux?
Video is something I am trying to grasp as to what my needs are. The
reality is that I don't need huge video performance. I don't do gaming, I
do browsing and music.
--
Len Ovens
www.ovenwerks.net
On Tue, 8 Apr
2014, Chris Metzler wrote:
> So, I'm looking to find out about hardware vendors. Specifically, I
> want to know about:
>
> 1. folks selling fully-built machines with Linux in mind, so that
> there'll be no real worries about any hardware compatibility issues;
Almost 2 yrs ago I got a custom configured machine from
http://www.endpcnoise.com/ that's been running very nicely.
They installed Ubuntu on it.
10:21 a.m.
New subject: Advice needed: hardware vendors
On Wed, April 9, 2014 11:43 am, Len Ovens wrote:
On Tue, 8 Apr 2014, Kevin Cosgrove wrote:
Those all look nice. Which video card did you use? They look to sell all
ATI video cards and don't mention what the "onboard video" interface is.
How well does it (the video) work with Linux?
Video is something I am trying to grasp as to what my needs are. The
reality is that I don't need huge video performance. I don't do gaming, I
do browsing and music.
If you don't want the extra power of the cuda cores on a dedicated highend
GPU from NVidia or ATI which can give impressive performance gains for
doing things like transcoding then you can live very comfortably with a
more energy conscious intel gpu onboard and the open source drivers.
I can run 1080p with most of the opengl API supported with an onboard
hd4000 equivalent
https://01.org/linuxgraphics/
- Also make sure to check if the BIOS supports so called "legacy BIOS"
unless you are comfortable having to add a fat32 partition to install the
UEFI rootkit and spyware on your machine to give the NSA direct access to
your backdoor. Some people care about that kind of thing.
--
Patrick Shirkey
Boost Hardware Ltd
On Tue, 8
Apr 2014, Chris Metzler wrote:
> So, I'm looking to find out about hardware vendors. Specifically, I
> want to know about:
>
> 1. folks selling fully-built machines with Linux in mind, so that
> there'll be no real worries about any hardware compatibility issues;
Almost 2 yrs ago I got a custom configured machine from
http://www.endpcnoise.com/ that's been running very nicely.
They installed Ubuntu on it.
5:26 p.m.
New subject: Advice needed: hardware vendors
On 8 April 2014 at 18:43, Len Ovens <len(a)ovenwerks.net> wrote:
On Tue, 8 Apr 2014, Kevin Cosgrove wrote:
Those all look nice. Which video card did you use? They look to sell all
ATI video cards and don't mention what the "onboard video" interface is.
How well does it (the video) work with Linux?
Video is something I am trying to grasp as to what my needs are. The
reality is that I don't need huge video performance. I don't do gaming, I
do browsing and music.
I got an inexpensive nVidia card, one without a fan so that it would
be silent. I don't do gaming. I do watch videos. I do run with two
monitors. It's been a fine card.
--
Kevin
On Tue, 8
Apr 2014, Chris Metzler wrote:
> So, I'm looking to find out about hardware vendors. Specifically, I
> want to know about:
>
> 1. folks selling fully-built machines with Linux in mind, so that
> there'll be no real worries about any hardware compatibility issues;
Almost 2 yrs ago I got a custom configured machine from
http://www.endpcnoise.com/ that's been running very nicely.
They installed Ubuntu on it.
14 Apr
14 Apr
3:12 a.m.
New subject: hardware - Intel CPUs
Further to choosing mother boards and processors:
There are current (released Q1 2014) CPUs in the Xeon and i5 (i5 has
turbo) lines (atom too, for a good headless system - with 8 cores?) that
come without Intel® Turbo Boost Technology or Intel® Hyper-Threading
Technology. Better yet, they are cheaper too. I don't know how easy they
are to come by though. See:
http://ark.intel.com/search/advanced/?s=t&TBTVersion=No&HyperThread…
So for an audio system start with the chip and find out what socket you
need, then go looking for a matching MB.
I don't know what the difference is between the i5 and xeon once the
extras have been stripped off. But at least the chip price is pretty much
dead even.
The new atoms have an intel hd graphics proc for easier access to drivers
than the older ones. The big problem with the atom is the MB tend to small
with only one pci(e) slot. Both the atom and the xeon seem to be addressed
towards server use and are know to have reasonable low latency
performance.
I too will be looking at updating my music computer (P4 single core 5 PCI
slots, 2.5G ram, USB 2, etc, etc, but good latency). I would realy like to
stay away from having to use a USB or FW audio IF. In fact I would like to
be able to continue to use my delta 66 for as long as I can before I spend
more money :) The list of PCIe audio IFs is pretty small and the music
stores don't seem to want to stock them... I guess musicians don't know
how to open a computer. The audio science ASI 554* boards are kind of
expensive (8 i/o ~ $1000), but the same could be said for RME stuff...
about the same price (by the time an adat box is added). The computer is
going to be the cheap part in any case.
--
Len Ovens
www.ovenwerks.net
9 Apr
9 Apr
11:57 a.m.
Expect to run your CPU at a lower speed than full for
audio work. This
can be set on the fly so speed can be ondemand for gaming and set to
70-80% full speed for audio. Many people just set performance mode for
audio, but this may make things too hot and the cpu temp sensor may
change the cpu speed on you in the middle of your best take giving a
glitch.
This is interesting, as the kernel help for the performance governor states:
"This cpufreq governor sets the frequency statically to the highest
available CPU frequency."
Who or what process may still downscale the freq? Or is it CPU internal?
And in latter case may that be an indicator that your cooling isn't
sufficient?
3:13 p.m.
On Wed, 9 Apr 2014, Ede Wolf wrote:
This is interesting, as the kernel help for the
performance governor states:
"This cpufreq governor sets the frequency statically to the highest
available CPU frequency."
Yup, setting the governor to "performance" sets it to full speed.
Who or what process may still downscale the freq? Or
is it CPU internal? And
CPU/MB chipset internal.
in latter case may that be an indicator that your
cooling isn't sufficient?
That is correct too. Those who run portable applications on a lap top are
the most likely to run into this. The hardware is just not designed to run
full out all the time. The lap top is also more sensitive to dust for this
reason. A desktop machine needs to be kept clean as well.
GPUs are actually worse. There are lots of "fix you lap top by remelting
the solder on the GPU" tutorials out there. The gpu can run hot enough to
melt the solder connecting it to the MB. I don't know how much of a
problem that is for audio work where the GPU is not so busy as a game that
is doing whole screen updates/calculations all the time.
--
Len Ovens
www.ovenwerks.net
3:52 p.m.
Thanks for clearing this up. Until know I was under the impression, that
performance would keep the frequency stable even if the cooler itself
changes it aggregation state to liquid. Will watch out for this, good to
know.
Am 09.04.2014 15:08, schrieb Len Ovens:
On Wed, 9 Apr 2014, Ede Wolf wrote:
This is interesting, as the kernel help for the
performance governor
states:
"This cpufreq governor sets the frequency statically to the highest
available CPU frequency."
Yup, setting the governor to "performance" sets it to full speed.
Who or what process may still downscale the freq?
Or is it CPU
internal? And
CPU/MB chipset internal.
in latter case may that be an indicator that your
cooling isn't
sufficient?
That is correct too. Those who run portable applications on a lap top
are the most likely to run into this. The hardware is just not designed
to run full out all the time. The lap top is also more sensitive to dust
for this reason. A desktop machine needs to be kept clean as well.
GPUs are actually worse. There are lots of "fix you lap top by remelting
the solder on the GPU" tutorials out there. The gpu can run hot enough
to melt the solder connecting it to the MB. I don't know how much of a
problem that is for audio work where the GPU is not so busy as a game
that is doing whole screen updates/calculations all the time.
--
Len Ovens
www.ovenwerks.net
4:41 p.m.
On 09/04/2014 14:08, Len Ovens wrote:
On Wed, 9 Apr 2014, Ede Wolf wrote:
Just because the CPU is running at full speed doesn't mean it is
generating the maximum amount of heat. If there's nothing for the
processor to do (no user task or housekeeping) linux will execute the
HLT instruction that puts the processor to sleep until the next
interrupt. So heat may not be an issue unless you are running lots of
audio processing. Of course the i[357] processors will change the clock
speed in response to a wider range of factors, including workload, no.
of active cores, current and power consumption (Turbo boost,
http://www.intel.com/content/www/us/en/architecture-and-technology/turbo-bo…).
Luke
This is interesting, as the kernel help for the
performance governor
states:
"This cpufreq governor sets the frequency statically to the highest
available CPU frequency."
Yup, setting the governor to "performance" sets it to full speed.
Who or what process may still downscale the freq?
Or is it CPU
internal? And
CPU/MB chipset internal.
in latter case may that be an indicator that your
cooling isn't
sufficient?
That is correct too. Those who run portable applications on a lap top
are the most likely to run into this. The hardware is just not
designed to run full out all the time. The lap top is also more
sensitive to dust for this reason. A desktop machine needs to be kept
clean as well.
11:52 p.m.
On Wed, 9 Apr 2014, Luke Hart wrote:
Yup. I have not had this problem myself, but I generally record audio only
with no soft synths. My low cpu usage should be obvious when I can get
good low latency on an atom netbook running half speed at 800Mhz :) But I
have run at full speed for long periods of time with no problem too.
That is
correct too. Those who run portable applications on a lap top are
the most likely to run into this. The hardware is just not designed to run
full out all the time. The lap top is also more sensitive to dust for this
reason. A desktop machine needs to be kept clean as well.
Just because the CPU is
running at full speed doesn't mean it is generating
the maximum amount of heat. If there's nothing for the processor to do (no
user task or housekeeping) linux will execute the HLT instruction that puts
the processor to sleep until the next interrupt. So heat may not be an issue
unless you are running lots of audio processing. Of course the i[357]
processors will change the clock speed in response to a wider range of
factors, including workload, no. of active cores, current and power
consumption (Turbo boost,
http://www.intel.com/content/www/us/en/architecture-and-technology/turbo-bo…).
That action appears to be switchable. The page says the speed will only
over clock if the OS asks for more than the non-boosted speed. Some of
intel's MB will let you turn off the speed switching for heat too (the
xeon server boards) but you void the warranty :) Having a flexable Bios
is helpful. Using this kind of boost technology is probably not what we
want for audio processing. Speed changes are very fast and should not be
noticed by the OS or affect latency (even ondemand should be ok) yet I and
others have noticed xruns that go away on a solid speed even if that speed
is slower. Fast CPUs do not mean good low latency. in fact there seems to
be a move away from known latency towards greatest throughput at any cost.
Often part of that cost is in latency bumps. There are some low latency
technologies out there, but they are not geared towards audio, but rather
stock market servers and therefore network access.
Looking at the intel low latency products (xeon e5 and e7) there are some
things that look useful to the audio world if there is an audio interface
that can make use of it. For example the ability to take incoming data
directly to the cpu cache rather than to system memory first. Boost speed
is still used in this low latency environment too... This leads me to
wonder if the xrun at speed switch is not something that could be fixed
with a better audio (or other) driver.
--
Len Ovens
www.ovenwerks.net
4016
days inactive
4022
days old
linux-audio-user@lists.linuxaudio.org
15 comments
9 participants
participants (9)
-
Charles Z Henry -
Chris Metzler -
Ede Wolf -
Kevin Cosgrove -
Len Ovens -
Luke Hart -
Neil -
Patrick Shirkey -
Tilo Kremer