18 Jun
2004
18 Jun
'04
10:25 a.m.
From: R Parker <rtp405(a)yahoo.com>
I have been discussing the design of a drum sample
library for Hydrogen with Comix (Hydrogen author),
Such a sample set would be useful outside of Hydrogen as well.
How about "public domain" license? We just have to make sure
people can get the originals if they wish. Is there GPL equivalent
for samples?
Here are my non-professional tips:
Tip 1: Listening to existing libraries may not help. It could
be that most drum samples are not done as good as possible.
Tip 2: Provide as many snare (say) samples as possible. If you
want create a limited preset for Hydrogen, you can do that later
but leave an option for us others who want a randomizing
element to the drums. Press record and hit the snare for an hour
in various ways.
Tip 3: Group the samples so that all samples from one drum kit
are together.
Tip 4: No effects whatsoever at recording time. Reverbs, gates etc
can be added later, but cannot be removed if they already are there.
Tip 5: If you record stereo, make the other channel so that it can
be played mono. Channels should not be mixed for obtaining the mono
version. First mic is for mono and the second mic is to get a different
perpective from the same sound. The first mic should be placed to best
position. Snare is often recorded both from top and bottom (where the
spring is heard best). Stereo effects can be done with these later;
the mics does not need to be in a true stereo configuration.
Tip 6: When two close mics are used to record a drum, check
any phasiness effects by mixing the mics. Fix it by moving the
second microphone. It may not be possible to fix it later.
Tip 7: The overall stereo mic could be in a human-ear-stereo
configuration above the drum kit. Those mics should be kept in fixed
position during all recordings. So, for each drum we would get both
the mono, the second mic, and overall stereo recording --- four
channels in total. That should give freedom at mix time.
Tip 8: When samples are trimmed, don't cut decays too early.
I use spectrum view in editing long decays because the spectrum
display can see throught the waveform noises. Listening to the
sample helps but not many editors have +64 dB output gains (Audacity
has ok +36 dB max output gain). Leave good space to the start as well;
trigger point can always be adjusted later in software.
mic pattern. When sequencing ride cymbals they need to
bleed from the listeners Hard left side across the
stereo field and into the Hard right side. If we don't
treat cymbals as stereo images they could fail to
sound like a live player when sequenced.
Why? Do you sit on drummer's lap in concerts?
Does your drummer's cymbal walk from left to right when hit? :-)
As far as I know the cymbal sound (one cymbal) comes from one
fixed position. If I stand at 50 feet from the drummer, the
sound is practically mono. Any left to right movement coming from
speakers is just an effect. Effects can be done later. Though, use
of two mics makes panning effect less dull.
from 1 in 2 out reverbs. In addition to dry mono snare
drums, we intend to produce a number of reverb
processed (wet) stereo samples.
I can help here and apply some of my own reverbs. I can also
help in trimming and in labeling the samples from the raw
recordings (if you don't have time). I can also provide
space from here ftp.funet.fi.
The drums will sound great because Bill,
Bobby and I know what we're doing. If we don't know
what we're doing someone should shoot us--we've got
about 90 years of combined experienced with playing
and recording drums.
I have recorded zero seconds of drums, but giving "tips"
won't harm anyone. If I'm mistagen, I'm sure you see
it instantly.
Juhana
18 Jun
18 Jun
12:46 p.m.
New subject: [linux-audio-user] Re: producing a drum sample library for hydrogen
Hi Juhana,
PROGRESS UPDATE
I did snare drum test prints after staring this thread
but a mono playback bug is preventing me from forging
ahead.
Beginning with loudest and working towards quietest,
we recorded nine volumes for one tone. I'll probably
produce three or four tones
--- Juhana Sadeharju <kouhia(a)nic.funet.fi> wrote:
Someone suggested a specific license, I haven't had
time to look at it yet but will.
When you're fifty feet from source, you're listening
to a room whether it's the Ordway Theatre, Lee's
Liquor Lounge or the Great Outdoors it is for our
purposes a room. Imaging is the artificial
construction of a room and in our case done with Left
and Right sides. This is just tried and true standard
stuff. There's nothing to debate.
A second version of the library could be for surround
where anything is open for debate. Incidentally, I
have begun to research surround, not because of market
demand because I have none. I'd simply love to mix
surround. To the best of our abilities, we designed
our mastering room so it could be certified for
surround work. That's alot simpler than it sounds. In
addition to tried and true accoustical design methods,
you simply have a minimum total cubic footage
requirement. I think we are short about 100 cubic
feet. Not that it matters to me because I'd never pay
for a certificate.
What reverb instruments do you have?
I've got Lexicon LXP-15, TC Works and Waves.
Your feedback is definitely appreciated. I seldomly
sequence "keeper" drums and have never produced a
sound library that's intended to be of some
consequence. If 20 years of experience has taught me
anything it's to listen and carefully interpret what a
client wants.
When the mono playback bug is fixed, I'll start work
again.
ron
From: R Parker
<rtp405(a)yahoo.com>
I have been discussing the design of a drum sample
library for Hydrogen with Comix (Hydrogen author),
Such a sample set would be useful outside of
Hydrogen as well.
How about "public domain" license? We just have to
make sure
people can get the originals if they wish. Is there
GPL equivalent
for samples? Here are my non-professional tips:
Tip 1: Listening to existing libraries may not help.
It could
be that most drum samples are not done as good as
possible.
Tip 2: Provide as many snare (say) samples as
possible. If you
want create a limited preset for Hydrogen, you can
do that later
but leave an option for us others who want a
randomizing
element to the drums. Press record and hit the snare
for an hour
in various ways.
To begin with we'll have either 27 or 36 volumes for
three or four tones; center hit, rim shot, mute. From
these mono samples, I'll produce a series of snares
with 1 in, 2 out reverb sounds. The first series of
tests I ran used a dozen or more reverbs per sound and
level. It's a alot of work and I might draw a line
somewhere.
Tip 3: Group the samples so that all samples from
one drum kit
are together.
Organization is mandatory. Nothing worse than trying
to find what you want:
1. snare_M_rimshot_10
2. snare_M_rimshot_09
3.
...
9 snare_M_rimshot_01
_M_ = Mono
10 = Loudest
1. snare_S_H-lrg_rimshot_10
...
9. snare_S_H-lrg_rimshot_01
S = stereo
H-lrg = Hall large
10 = Loudest
We'll need a legend of sorts that explains naming
conventions.
Tip 4: No effects whatsoever at recording time.
Reverbs, gates etc
can be added later, but cannot be removed if they
already are there.
Right, with an expception being the stereo snare drums
where the whole point is to design sounds.
Tip 5: If you record stereo, make the other channel
so that it can
be played mono.
I probably won't use this strategy. I'll mic for
stereo and then do another session for mono. One
reason is because my mono signal path is much higher
quality than my stereo path. :)
Channels should not be mixed for
obtaining the mono
version. First mic is for mono and the second mic is
to get a different
perpective from the same sound. The first mic should
be placed to best
position. Snare is often recorded both from top and
bottom (where the
spring is heard best). Stereo effects can be done
with these later;
the mics does not need to be in a true stereo
configuration.
Tip 6: When two close mics are used to record a
drum, check
any phasiness effects by mixing the mics. Fix it by
moving the
second microphone. It may not be possible to fix it
later.
I don't have phase problems. Fixing any audio problems
after the fact is always sucks. It's never necesarry
to do that with my work.
Tip 7: The overall stereo mic could be in a
human-ear-stereo
configuration above the drum kit. Those mics should
be kept in fixed
position during all recordings. So, for each drum we
would get both
the mono, the second mic, and overall stereo
recording --- four
channels in total. That should give freedom at mix
time.
Tip 8: When samples are trimmed, don't cut decays
too early.
I use spectrum view in editing long decays because
the spectrum
display can see throught the waveform noises.
Listening to the
sample helps but not many editors have +64 dB output
gains (Audacity
has ok +36 dB max output gain).
If you can't hear anything then all useful audio is
gone. I've been allowing the tail to fade completely
out of the audible level range. I think long tails are
the way to go because size is of little consequence
and subsequent triggers in a sequence will simply play
over any tails.
Leave good space to
the start as well;
trigger point can always be adjusted later in
software.
In my tests, I trimmed heads to be tight. I can't
think of any situation where there's a benefit to
leaving space in front of the sample. If there isn't a
benefit to space in the head and I'm already editing
the files I should just get it right so nobody has to
deal with it again. Of course this is a point for
which I could be entirely ignorant.
Please provide specific examples that clarify why room
in the head is the most useful strategy.
mic pattern.
When sequencing ride cymbals they need
to
bleed from the listeners Hard left side across
the
stereo field and into the Hard right side. If we
don't
treat cymbals as stereo images they could fail to
sound like a live player when sequenced.
Why? Do you sit on drummer's lap in concerts?
Does your drummer's cymbal walk from left to right
when hit? :-)
As far as I know the cymbal sound (one cymbal) comes
from one
fixed position. If I stand at 50 feet from the
drummer, the
sound is practically mono. Any left to right
movement coming from
speakers is just an effect. Effects can be done
later. Though, use
of two mics makes panning effect less dull. from 1 in 2 out
reverbs. In addition to dry mono
snare
drums, we intend to produce a number of reverb
processed (wet) stereo samples.
I can help here and apply some of my own reverbs. can also
help in trimming and in labeling the samples from
the raw
recordings (if you don't have time). I can also
provide
space from here ftp.funet.fi.
At one time, I was gonna ask if someone could do the
trimming and labeling. I since concluded it would be
easiest to do it myself. Now you've got me thinking
and I appreciate the offer. When production starts
I'll know if it's reasonable to ask that of you.
The drums will
sound great because Bill,
Bobby and I know what we're doing. If we don't know
what we're doing someone should shoot us--we've got
about 90 years of combined experienced with playing
and recording drums.
I have recorded zero seconds of drums, but giving
"tips"
won't harm anyone. If I'm mistagen, I'm sure you see
it instantly. Juhana
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2:46 p.m.
New subject: [linux-audio-user] Re: Re: producing a drum sample library for hydrogen
There is an excellent drum set freely downloadable at
http://www.naturalstudio.co.uk/ns_kit.htm
He has some useful notes on how he made it as well. I use some of the
earlier versions and they are quite good. But as ever, it is the
cymbals that are hard to make convincing.
3:22 p.m.
New subject: [linux-audio-user] Re: Re: producing a drum sample library for hydrogen
On Fri, Jun 18, 2004 at 06:39:34AM -0400, Alastair Couper wrote:
There is an excellent drum set freely downloadable at
http://www.naturalstudio.co.uk/ns_kit.htm
He has some useful notes on how he made it as well. I use some of the
earlier versions and they are quite good. But as ever, it is the
cymbals that are hard to make convincing.
http://www.natural-studio.co.uk/copyright.htm
--
It should be noted that these samples are NOT royalty free. If you
wish to use them in such a way as you'll be making money from it (be
that in any form) you must ask permission.
--
...
19 Jun
19 Jun
10:57 a.m.
New subject: [linux-audio-user] Re: Re: producing a drum sample library for hydrogen
--- Claudio Mettler
<linux-audio-user(a)goblin-embassy.net> wrote:
On Fri, Jun 18, 2004 at 06:39:34AM -0400, Alastair
Couper wrote:
I've sent a letter to Douglas Whates, the copyright
holder, explaining that my motivation to create an
alternative to the NS kit library is based on the
restrictions to freely distibute derivitive for profit
products. I asked Douglas if he'd consider changing
the license and made it clear I'd rather use his
library than invest the time into building a new one.
I'm hoping he's open to the idea of a less restrictive
license. If not, then it's "moving right along."
ron
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There is an excellent drum set freely
downloadable
at
http://www.naturalstudio.co.uk/ns_kit.htm
He has some useful notes on how he made it as
well. I use some of the
earlier versions and they are quite good. But as
ever, it is the
cymbals that are hard to make convincing.
http://www.natural-studio.co.uk/copyright.htm
--
It should be noted that these samples are NOT
royalty free. If you
wish to use them in such a way as you'll be making
money from it (be
that in any form) you must ask permission.
-- 
20 Jun
20 Jun
1:53 a.m.
New subject: [linux-audio-user] Re: Re: producing a drum sample library for hydrogen
On 19-Jun-2004 R Parker wrote:
}
} I've sent a letter to Douglas Whates, the copyright
} holder, explaining that my motivation to create an
} alternative to the NS kit library is based on the
} restrictions to freely distibute derivitive for profit
} products. I asked Douglas if he'd consider changing
} the license and made it clear I'd rather use his
} library than invest the time into building a new one.
}
} I'm hoping he's open to the idea of a less restrictive
} license. If not, then it's "moving right along."
Maybe you could get him to contribute a "subset" {like the cymbals} for the
advertising value. I've got a feeling that linux audio stuff is going to be on
a lot of desktops soon enough.
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Date: 19-Jun-2004
Time: 22:41:15
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18 Jun
18 Jun
1:05 p.m.
New subject: [linux-audio-user] Re: producing a drum sample library for hydrogen
On Fri, 18 Jun 2004 15:16:46 +0300, Juhana Sadeharju wrote
It seems to be a bit of a well kept secret, but the archive.org collection has
an open audio repository:
http://www.archive.org/audio/collection.php?collection=opensource_audio
They will host any audio covered by a creative commons licence.
(http://creativecommons.org/)
I've been using it to host example audio clips of my software, and all of the
music I make now too. We could probably set up a repository for a LAU sample
collection, I've got tons of samples I could upload.
cheers,
dave
From: R Parker
<rtp405(a)yahoo.com>
I have been discussing the design of a drum sample
library for Hydrogen with Comix (Hydrogen author),
Such a sample set would be useful outside of Hydrogen as well.
How about "public domain" license? We just have to make sure
people can get the originals if they wish. Is there GPL equivalent
for samples? 
20 Jun
20 Jun
4:39 p.m.
New subject: [linux-audio-user] Re: producing a drum sample library for hydrogen
Dave Griffiths wrote:
It seems to be a bit of a well kept secret, but the
archive.org collection has
an open audio repository:
http://www.archive.org/audio/collection.php?collection=opensource_audio
They will host any audio covered by a creative commons licence.
(http://creativecommons.org/)
I've been using it to host example audio clips of my software, and all of the
music I make now too. We could probably set up a repository for a LAU sample
collection, I've got tons of samples I could upload.
That is such a good idea...ohmygod.
-lee
18 Jun
18 Jun
4:02 p.m.
New subject: [linux-audio-user] Re: producing a drum sample library for hydrogen
At Fri, 18 Jun 2004 15:16:46 +0300,
Juhana Sadeharju wrote:
Speaking of which:
http://www.machinaesupremacy.com/discography.htm
The greatest band of all time has a very big and very high quality
drum sample kit on that page which is in the public domain (the
license says "do whatever you want with this," or something to that
effect).
-Pete
From: R Parker <rtp405(a)yahoo.com>
I have been discussing the design of a drum sample
library for Hydrogen with Comix (Hydrogen author),
Such a sample set would be useful outside of Hydrogen as well.
How about "public domain" license? We just have to make sure
people can get the originals if they wish. Is there GPL equivalent
for samples?
8:14 p.m.
New subject: [linux-audio-user] Re: producing a drum sample library for hydrogen
--- Pete Bessman <ninjadroid(a)gazuga.net> wrote:
At Fri, 18 Jun 2004 15:16:46 +0300,
Juhana Sadeharju wrote:
I'm downloading their stuff now. My immediate reaction
is if someone else has already done the work then I
don't need to. :)
The download has "16bit" in the filename so I'm
immediately skeptical. I believe Hydrogen has already
been modified to work with 24bit samples. My
experience is that there is an audible difference
between 16bit and 24bit. If their library is high
quality samples then the compromise could be
acceptable.
I think Juhana sent a link to another library that
needs to be reviewed. Bottom line, I'd prefer to take
advantage of an existing library and spend time
working on something else.
I just reviewed the MDK sample pack. I definitely
prefer my kick drum over there kick. I like the sound
of my snare drums more than the drum they use. Some of
their snare samples are to hot and clips are present
but not audible. Their cymbals are OK. It's a very
small library that's useful for basic pop beats. It's
missing many sounds.
I'm not sure if I can beat the tonal quality of their
cymbals but I didn't open any of mine and do
comparisons. There is stereo imaging in the cymbal
samples.
The MDK library is usable but it's not complete enough
to fulfill my writing requirements. I'll review any
appropriately licensed libraries if I know where to
download them. I'd prefer to take advantage of
something that exists.
Pete, thanks for pointing us to the MDK library. It's
a fine study and definitely helped me gain more insite
for the challange.
BTW, what's up with these 16bit samples? I see this
everywhere. Wouldn't we really prefer 24bit. Is 16bit
a leftover from days gone by or what?
ron
>From: R Parker <rtp405(a)yahoo.com>
>
>I have been discussing the design of a drum
sample
>library for Hydrogen with Comix (Hydrogen
author),
Such a sample set would be useful outside of
Hydrogen as well.
How about "public domain" license? We
just have to
make sure
people can get the originals if they wish. Is
there GPL equivalent
for samples?
Speaking of which:
http://www.machinaesupremacy.com/discography.htm
The greatest band of all time has a very big and
very high quality
drum sample kit on that page which is in the public
domain (the
license says "do whatever you want with this," or
something to that
effect). -Pete
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19 Jun
19 Jun
12:59 a.m.
New subject: [linux-audio-user] Re: producing a drum sample library for hydrogen
BTW, what's up with these 16bit samples? I see
this
everywhere. Wouldn't we really prefer 24bit. Is 16bit
a leftover from days gone by or what?
Meh, I can't tell the difference. I've yet to hear a compelling
argument for preferring anything more than 16bit/44.1k. Personal
opinions abound, but the plural of "anecdote" is not "data."
-Pete
2:14 a.m.
New subject: [linux-audio-user] Re: producing a drum sample library for hydrogen
On 19-Jun-2004 Pete Bessman wrote:
} Meh, I can't tell the difference. I've yet to hear a compelling
} argument for preferring anything more than 16bit/44.1k. Personal
} opinions abound, but the plural of "anecdote" is not "data."
It sounds better?
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2:54 a.m.
New subject: [linux-audio-user] Re: producing a drum sample library for hydrogen
On 19-Jun-2004 RickTaylor(a)Speakeasy.Net wrote:
} On 19-Jun-2004 Pete Bessman wrote:
} } Meh, I can't tell the difference. I've yet to hear a compelling
} } argument for preferring anything more than 16bit/44.1k. Personal
} } opinions abound, but the plural of "anecdote" is not "data."
}
} It sounds better?
I suppose that should have specified "it"... 24/96 sounds significantly
better.
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3:59 a.m.
New subject: [linux-audio-user] Re: producing a drum sample library for hydrogen
On Sat, 2004-06-19 at 00:43, RickTaylor(a)speakeasy.net wrote:
On 19-Jun-2004 RickTaylor(a)Speakeasy.Net wrote:
} On 19-Jun-2004 Pete Bessman wrote:
} } Meh, I can't tell the difference. I've yet to hear a compelling
} } argument for preferring anything more than 16bit/44.1k. Personal
} } opinions abound, but the plural of "anecdote" is not "data."
}
} It sounds better?
I suppose that should have specified "it"... 24/96 sounds significantly
better.
I suspect that 24/48 would sound just as 'better'. Going from 16 to 24
bits makes sense, but from 48 to 96 does not. It is 100% marketing.
Just google for 'nyquist frequency', then look up what the range of
human hearing is.
"Hmm, as long as we're going to increase the file size by 50% to achieve
a worthwhile goal, might as well double it again for no reason."
The engineers want to go 24 bit, and the 96 thing gets slapped on by the
marketing department. It's Dilbertian.
Lee
7:14 a.m.
New subject: [linux-audio-user] Re: producing a drum sample library for hydrogen
On 19-Jun-2004 Lee Revell wrote:
} On Sat, 2004-06-19 at 00:43, RickTaylor(a)speakeasy.net wrote:
} > On 19-Jun-2004 RickTaylor(a)Speakeasy.Net wrote:
} > } On 19-Jun-2004 Pete Bessman wrote:
} > } } Meh, I can't tell the difference. I've yet to hear a compelling
} > } } argument for preferring anything more than 16bit/44.1k. Personal
} > } } opinions abound, but the plural of "anecdote" is not
"data."
} > }
} > } It sounds better?
} >
} > I suppose that should have specified "it"... 24/96 sounds significantly
} > better.
}
} I suspect that 24/48 would sound just as 'better'. Going from 16 to 24
} bits makes sense, but from 48 to 96 does not. It is 100% marketing.
} Just google for 'nyquist frequency', then look up what the range of
} human hearing is.
:} My processor wouldn't deal with it very well anyway.
I don't care what the range of human hearing is. We're talking computer
hardware here. Human ears are all the way at the end of the equation. You have
to have room in between the processes for things to make it all the way to ear
level and remain somewhat intact. {Just look at the level of degradation you get
by resampling just a few times} Considering the punishment I put the average
file through... I need all the buffer I can get.
{The above is meant to be slightly humorous, by the way.}
I'm not really pushing for 24/96 files... {Tho' I do appreciate the difference
that spec makes when it comes to hardware.} I do think 16/44 is pretty weakish
as far as a file format goes... *some* samples sound ok in it. 24/48 is about
the lower level of what I like working with. {16 bit is just plain nasty}
} "Hmm, as long as we're going to increase the file size by 50% to achieve
} a worthwhile goal, might as well double it again for no reason."
}
} The engineers want to go 24 bit, and the 96 thing gets slapped on by the
} marketing department. It's Dilbertian.
Have you actually worked with 24/96?
The differences are major. For instance, at 16/48 I can't push the feedback in
Soundforge's Multitap delay past 50% without it going into a loop and trying to
eat my ears and hardware... At 24/48 I can generally push it a bit... and at
24/96 I can turn it all the way up and still, be able to control it... Seeing
as I work primarilly with noise and feedback... this opens up entire new aural
vistas for me... I can get sounds that would never happen at lower rates.
:} I *need* those sounds.
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2:41 p.m.
New subject: [linux-audio-user] Re: producing a drum sample library for hydrogen
RickTaylor(a)speakeasy.net a écrit :
Have you actually worked with 24/96?
The differences are major. For instance, at 16/48 I can't push the feedback in
Soundforge's Multitap delay past 50% without it going into a loop and trying to
eat my ears and hardware... At 24/48 I can generally push it a bit... and at
24/96 I can turn it all the way up and still, be able to control it... Seeing
as I work primarilly with noise and feedback... this opens up entire new aural
vistas for me... I can get sounds that would never happen at lower rates.
:} I *need* those sounds.
Sorry but this is a bad example .....
This example has nothing to do with the sample rate of the sample
(sound) but with the method used to implement a digital delay effect.
In the case you are exposing you will certainly have the same effect
with a initial 24/48 sample rate up-sampled to 96 just to process the
effect. This method was used by Steinberg in one of their VST EQ plugin
in order to improved the response of the EQ in high frequency.
You don't need 24/96 to have those sound, you need better digital effect
processors !!!
Christophe
20 Jun
20 Jun
1:05 a.m.
New subject: [linux-audio-user] Re: producing a drum sample library for hydrogen
On 19-Jun-2004 Vescovi Christophe wrote:
} RickTaylor(a)speakeasy.net a �crit :
} > :} I *need* those sounds.
} Sorry but this is a bad example .....
} This example has nothing to do with the sample rate of the sample
} (sound) but with the method used to implement a digital delay effect.
} In the case you are exposing you will certainly have the same effect
} with a initial 24/48 sample rate up-sampled to 96 just to process the
} effect. This method was used by Steinberg in one of their VST EQ plugin
} in order to improved the response of the EQ in high frequency.
} You don't need 24/96 to have those sound, you need better digital effect
} processors !!!
It's a perfectly good example... It's indicative of the results that I get
overall. With 24/96 I get what I want... regardless of the reasons behind
it. Why would I use anything else? Because someone else tells me I should?
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2:15 a.m.
New subject: [linux-audio-user] Re: producing a drum sample library for hydrogen
On Sat, 2004-06-19 at 22:55, RickTaylor(a)speakeasy.net wrote:
On 19-Jun-2004 Vescovi Christophe wrote:
} RickTaylor(a)speakeasy.net a crit :
} > :} I *need* those sounds.
} Sorry but this is a bad example .....
} This example has nothing to do with the sample rate of the sample
} (sound) but with the method used to implement a digital delay effect.
} In the case you are exposing you will certainly have the same effect
} with a initial 24/48 sample rate up-sampled to 96 just to process the
} effect. This method was used by Steinberg in one of their VST EQ plugin
} in order to improved the response of the EQ in high frequency.
} You don't need 24/96 to have those sound, you need better digital effect
} processors !!!
It's a perfectly good example... It's indicative of the results that I get
overall. With 24/96 I get what I want... regardless of the reasons behind
it. Why would I use anything else? Because someone else tells me I should?
I never meant to say anyone should use anything other than what gives
them the best sound. I should have been more specific, my point was
that I think 96khz is overkill for recording sounds from outside the
computer. Of course you should upsample and process at a higher
resolution if possible, no matter what format your input is, just
because it gives you more room for error.
Lee
5:55 a.m.
New subject: [linux-audio-user] Re: producing a drum sample library for hydrogen
On 20-Jun-2004 Lee Revell wrote:
} On Sat, 2004-06-19 at 22:55, RickTaylor(a)speakeasy.net wrote:
} > it. Why would I use anything else? Because someone else tells me I should?
}
} I never meant to say anyone should use anything other than what gives
} them the best sound. I should have been more specific, my point was
} that I think 96khz is overkill for recording sounds from outside the
} computer. Of course you should upsample and process at a higher
} resolution if possible, no matter what format your input is, just
} because it gives you more room for error.
Why wouldn't you simply record at a higher rate and downsample? There's only
one resample {Other than the processing or whatever.} and you start with
a better quality sample that way.
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Date: 20-Jun-2004
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9:26 p.m.
New subject: [linux-audio-user] Re: producing a drum sample library for hydrogen
Why wouldn't you simply record at a higher rate
and downsample?
There's only one resample {Other than the processing or whatever.}
and you start with a better quality sample that way.
I'm not an audio professional, nor have I ever played one on TV. But it
seems to me that one should probably minimise resampling at all costs
unless it's necessary.
If you have lots of libraries at 48K/24-bit, you should probably record
your new material in that format, do all of your processing and mixing in
that format, and only when exporting to your end-destination format doing
the requisite dithering and resampling.
I guess Hell is defined as your project having vocals recorded in 44/16,
drum samples in 24/96, and the rest of your electronica in 48/16.
I think even "trivial" up/downsampling [1:2 or 2:1] ratios are frought with
some peril, since in the downsampling direction you must be absolutely sure
there is no spectral energy above Mr. Nyquist's limit. Every resampling
event implies some filtering, and filtering seems like one of those you
things you do only when you have to.
Filtering removes content, and even the best of them probably remove
something harder-to-measure than S/N ratios and frequency response. There
is a great deal of chatter amongst the audio professionals about "vitality"
and the "reality" of a given recording's sound, which cannot be but hurt by
too much chewing and processing.
Again, I'm an outsider to the MUSICAL/CREATIVE part of audio -
<EMBARRASSMENT> up until shockingly recently, I thought Octave progressions
followed a power-of-2 sequencing. </EMBARRASSMENT>
I know only one "audio professional" personally, who is a rather cynical
and grizzled guy who is a hardcore ProTools Snob [not the new host-based
stuff].
"Wire speed is my latency, fool." "Straight wire with gain is all I need
from you stupid engineers!"
He responds to my discussions and questions about DSP, digital filter
design, and all of that as such "forest besides the trees" talk... "But how
does it SOUND?! Are you so busy with your digital processing mathematics
that you're using your EYES instead of LISTENING?" Etc, etc. He's
obviously not a Luddite as he makes extensive use of digital audio [PT is
an all-digital system], but his attitudes about which tools to use and when
are remarkably different than what might seem logical to a mathematician or
electronics engineer.
It seems reasonable that before setting out to decide on your recording
format, you need to figure out what you're producing for. Movie soundtrack
audio seems to be centered around 48KHz/16bit formats [I think they do
field acquisition at 20-24 bits on their Nagras though, no?], with CD audio
being 44.1/16 of course.
If your album is going to be "heavily processed" anyway, I suppose there's
probably little harm in recording and editing at the highest format quality
you can use, since repeated iterations through DSP stuff will be damaged
less at the more "precise" formats. 16 bits is such a shockingly small
numeric range, really, when you start tossing it into floating point
algorithms for DSP. That final downsampling is probably going to do alot
less damage to your work than the accumulated round-off distortions going
back and forth to/from floating point algorithms.
Anyway, this is my 1/2 penny. As a computer science/mathematician-oriented
person, I know full well the trap of "I'm an engineer, I can FIX that..."
impulses which arise from a consciousness and a grasp that every "problem"
just requires another algorithm or technique to evolve or tune. But
sometimes, less is more, and as I listen more critically to various pieces
of music, I find the more "intact" it is, the more "real" it is to me.
=MB=
--
A focus on Quality.
2:15 a.m.
New subject: [linux-audio-user] Re: producing a drum sample library for hydrogen
On Sat, 2004-06-19 at 22:55, RickTaylor(a)speakeasy.net wrote:
On 19-Jun-2004 Vescovi Christophe wrote:
} RickTaylor(a)speakeasy.net a crit :
} > :} I *need* those sounds.
} Sorry but this is a bad example .....
} This example has nothing to do with the sample rate of the sample
} (sound) but with the method used to implement a digital delay effect.
} In the case you are exposing you will certainly have the same effect
} with a initial 24/48 sample rate up-sampled to 96 just to process the
} effect. This method was used by Steinberg in one of their VST EQ plugin
} in order to improved the response of the EQ in high frequency.
} You don't need 24/96 to have those sound, you need better digital effect
} processors !!!
It's a perfectly good example... It's indicative of the results that I get
overall. With 24/96 I get what I want... regardless of the reasons behind
it. Why would I use anything else? Because someone else tells me I should?
I never meant to say anyone should use anything other than what gives
them the best sound. I should have been more specific, my point was
that I think 96khz is overkill for recording sounds from outside the
computer. Of course you should upsample and process at a higher
resolution if possible, no matter what format your input is, just
because it gives you more room for error.
Lee
19 Jun
19 Jun
5:35 p.m.
New subject: [linux-audio-user] Re: producing a drum sample library for hydrogen
RickTaylor(a)speakeasy.net wrote:
Have you actually worked with 24/96?
I must admit I have not. But I don't need to try satellite internet to
know that it's unusable either, I know what the speed of light is and I
can do the math.
The differences are major. For instance, at 16/48 I
can't push the feedback in
Soundforge's Multitap delay past 50% without it going into a loop and trying to
eat my ears and hardware... At 24/48 I can generally push it a bit... and at
24/96 I can turn it all the way up and still, be able to control it... Seeing
as I work primarilly with noise and feedback... this opens up entire new aural
vistas for me... I can get sounds that would never happen at lower rates.
:} I *need* those sounds.
Good point, this is a case where you go with whatever gives you the best
sound, but you are really relying on the quirks of the particular
effects you are using. I was talking about the specific case of
recording live sounds from outside the computer.
Lee
5:55 p.m.
New subject: [linux-audio-user] Re: producing a drum sample library for hydrogen
On Sat, 2004-06-19 at 14:26, Lee Revell wrote:
RickTaylor(a)speakeasy.net wrote:
Yes, but even physiologists don't completely understand how hearing
works. Nyquist doesn't appear to be the answer to everything. Read the
latest issue of TapeOp and especially the interview with Walter Sear. I
tend to record at 24/44.1 but that's just because 16/44.1 is my target
and I don't use much in the way of effects. I also hear a difference
though when I record 24/44.1 and 24/96.
Jan
Have you actually worked with 24/96?
I must admit I have not. But I don't need to try satellite internet to
know that it's unusable either, I know what the speed of light is and I
can do the math.
20 Jun
20 Jun
10:21 a.m.
New subject: [linux-audio-user] Re: producing a drum sample library for hydrogen
Last Saturday 19 June 2004 20:48, Jan Depner was like:
I don't understand all the ins and outs of this, but surely the sample rate
affects more than just audible pitch. Most people aren't aware of much above
16k, however the ear/brain is surely capable of perceiving differences, so a
higher sample rate is going to sound smoother in the way that faster film
looks smoother, the ear will perceive curves rather than digital grainyness.
Surely the software will 'notice' the difference even more allowing you to
avoid those strange edge of spectrum aliasing effects. My understanding is
limited, so I welcome any further enlightenment on the subject.
Myself, I work at 16/48k, because my system is limited, not because I think
it's best. Considering that, up to 2 years ago I was still using cassette
tape, the sound quality I'm experiencing now is a freakin' revelation!
cheers
tim hall
I must admit I
have not. But I don't need to try satellite internet to
know that it's unusable either, I know what the speed of light is and I
can do the math.
Yes, but even physiologists don't completely understand how hearing
works. Nyquist doesn't appear to be the answer to everything. Read the
latest issue of TapeOp and especially the interview with Walter Sear. I
tend to record at 24/44.1 but that's just because 16/44.1 is my target
and I don't use much in the way of effects. I also hear a difference
though when I record 24/44.1 and 24/96. 
12:24 p.m.
New subject: [linux-audio-user] Re: producing a drum sample library for hydrogen
On Sun, Jun 20, 2004 at 01:11:00PM +0100, tim hall wrote:
Most people aren't aware of much above
16k, however the ear/brain is surely capable of perceiving differences, so a
higher sample rate is going to sound smoother in the way that faster film
looks smoother, the ear will perceive curves rather than digital grainyness.
There's certainly some evidence in favour of that, but consider this
counter-argument:
A 'grainy' signal could be regarded as the sum of a perfect signal plus
a small distortion signal. If you can demonstrate that the
distortion signal is inaudible then arguably it also doesn't have an
audible effect whan added to a sound that is audible. In fact the well
known auditory phenomenon of masking shows the reverse: a
sound that by istelf *is* audible can be rendered inaudible in the
presence of a simultaneous louder sound.
This principle should work whether the distortion of grainines is due to
lack of bits, where the distortion component should be a too low a level to
be audible, or sampling rate, where the distortion component is at too
high a frequency to be audible by itself.
My personal view (not an original idea) is that many of the perceived
differences are due to comparitively gross differences elsewhere in the
audio chain, which have not properly been taken into account. For example:
- A system with lower SR may have some in-band aliasing products because
the filters weren't good enough and there was some spurious HF content
lurking in the original signal.
- Brand A 24/96k input stage may have better preamps and other analog
circuitry than brand B 16/44.1k.
- An audio power amplifier may be nonlinear at frequencies between
20-40kHz. This is out of band but energy at those frequencies could
produce in-band intermodulation products.
- I read an anecdote from audio researcher Peter Baxandall in which
'subtle sonic differences' between two systems were traced to a 1dB
difference in level alone - which goes to show how subjective this
all is:-)
Myself, I work at 16/48k, because my system is
limited, not because I think
it's best. Considering that, up to 2 years ago I was still using cassette
tape, the sound quality I'm experiencing now is a freakin' revelation!
Also considering much of the world is cheerfully listening to compressed
MP3, minidisc, digital radio and MPEG audio, the numbers who really can
tell the difference or care very much are quite small. I do agree,
however, that the pro audio studio needs sound quality overkill because
of the many stages of processing the audio signal goes through (the same
applies to analogue audio), and when you are trying to assess possible
problems with the sound you need to be confident that your equipment is
beyond reproach in terms of sound degradation.
--
Anahata
anahata(a)treewind.co.uk -+- http://www.treewind.co.uk
Home: 01638 720444 Mob: 07976 263827
7:43 p.m.
New subject: [linux-audio-user] Re: producing a drum sample library for hydrogen
On 20-Jun-2004 tim hall wrote:
} I don't understand all the ins and outs of this, but surely the sample rate
} affects more than just audible pitch. Most people aren't aware of much above
} 16k, however the ear/brain is surely capable of perceiving differences, so a
} higher sample rate is going to sound smoother in the way that faster film
} looks smoother, the ear will perceive curves rather than digital grainyness.
} Surely the software will 'notice' the difference even more allowing you to
} avoid those strange edge of spectrum aliasing effects. My understanding is
} limited, so I welcome any further enlightenment on the subject.
I do know that sometimes after sessions with sound that doesn't sound very loud
at all to me that my ears will be screwed... especially with really high
{silvery? ...It's a bit difficult to come up with a colorful term} frequency
stuff.
{Unfortunately I like that sort of thing. {I think I'm going to do full
screen meters on my second machine... I'm serious when I say "screwed"}}
If you remember Lustmord's albums... lots of folk were concerned that his
super and subsonic stuff was going to cause permanent ear damage. {I remember a
warning to that effect... whether it was on the albums or ads or in reviews I
don't remember.}
You know how really high frequency sounds can make you feel really uneasy?
{the squealing tv in the other room? fingernails on chalkboards?} I get the
feeling that we're "hearing" a lot more of the inaudible spectrum than we
generally consider.
You can certainly feel it if your monitors are big enough and you crank the
volume.
Seriously though... I think processing is where it really matters... Same as
with images... the differences you get when you scale a 256 color graphic and a
truecolor one would probably equate somewhat. {at least, that's what it sounds
like to me.}
} Myself, I work at 16/48k, because my system is limited, not because I think
} it's best. Considering that, up to 2 years ago I was still using cassette
} tape, the sound quality I'm experiencing now is a freakin' revelation!
----------------------------------
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Date: 20-Jun-2004
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1:01 a.m.
New subject: [linux-audio-user] Re: producing a drum sample library for hydrogen
On 19-Jun-2004 Lee Revell wrote:
} RickTaylor(a)speakeasy.net wrote:
} > Have you actually worked with 24/96?
} I must admit I have not. But I don't need to try satellite internet to
} know that it's unusable either, I know what the speed of light is and I
} can do the math.
Try it... then do the math.
} > The differences are major. For instance, at 16/48 I can't push the
...
} > vistas for me... I can get sounds that would never happen at lower rates.
...
} > :} I *need* those sounds.
} Good point, this is a case where you go with whatever gives you the best
} sound, but you are really relying on the quirks of the particular
} effects you are using. I was talking about the specific case of
} recording live sounds from outside the computer.
I'm not interested in recording at all. I'm not relying on quirks... I'm
optimizing my process to give the best possible results. ...Less than that just
plain "ain't good enough".
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Date: 19-Jun-2004
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19 Jun
19 Jun
3:37 a.m.
New subject: [linux-audio-user] Re: producing a drum sample library for hydrogen
Meh, I can't tell the difference. I've yet to
hear a compelling
argument for preferring anything more than 16bit/44.1k. Personal
opinions abound, but the plural of "anecdote" is not "data."
I swear I can hear the difference between 16bit/44.1k and 16bit/48k.
When I decided to use the extra 3.9K that my card allows, I did a "side
by side test" of a 44.1K and 48K. The difference is quality is enough
for me to record at a standard 48K rate.
While we're on the subject. I noticed that a some of the sound font
files that I've looked at have 33K audio files. Anyone know why this
perticular sampling rate? I'm not being really diligent and going thru
all my sound font files. I'm going from memory, and it seems I've seen
this sampling rate in several sound fonts.
Rocco
4:22 a.m.
New subject: [linux-audio-user] Re: producing a drum sample library for hydrogen
On Fri, 2004-06-18 at 21:24, LinuxMedia wrote:
Well, 48khz has been the standard in professional digital audio since
day one, for a reason I would think. 44.1 is an oddball, a quirk of the
CD format.
Probably they couldn't quite figure out how to get enough music on a CD
at 48khz, so they stupidly forced people to downsample to 44.1 rather
than wait a year or two until the capacity got better. Or they didn't
want people having exact digital copies of the master DATs.
Lee
Meh, I
can't tell the difference. I've yet to hear a compelling
argument for preferring anything more than 16bit/44.1k. Personal
opinions abound, but the plural of "anecdote" is not "data."
I swear I can hear the difference between 16bit/44.1k and 16bit/48k.
When I decided to use the extra 3.9K that my card allows, I did a "side
by side test" of a 44.1K and 48K. The difference is quality is enough
for me to record at a standard 48K rate.
8:35 a.m.
New subject: [linux-audio-user] Re: producing a drum sample library for hydrogen
On Sat, Jun 19, 2004 at 02:12:59AM -0400, Lee Revell wrote:
Well, 48khz has been the standard in professional
digital audio since
day one, for a reason I would think. 44.1 is an oddball, a quirk of the
CD format.
The 44.1kHz standard is linked to TV video scan frequencies, which I
think may be a legacy from Sony's early digital audio using based on
video cassettes.
I can understand the sonic difference between 44.1 and 48kHz; if you
accept an upper limit of 20kHz on your audio band the filters for 44.1k
have a gap of only 4 kHz between passband and stopband; at 48kHz that
gap is 8kHz which means much cleaner filter response for the same level
of alias rejection.
--
Anahata
anahata(a)treewind.co.uk -+- http://www.treewind.co.uk
Home: 01638 720444 Mob: 07976 263827
20 Jun
20 Jun
12:55 a.m.
New subject: [linux-audio-user] Re: producing a drum sample library for hydrogen
On 19-Jun-2004 anahata wrote:
} On Sat, Jun 19, 2004 at 02:12:59AM -0400, Lee Revell wrote:
}
} > Well, 48khz has been the standard in professional digital audio since
} > day one, for a reason I would think. 44.1 is an oddball, a quirk of the
} > CD format.
}
} The 44.1kHz standard is linked to TV video scan frequencies, which I
} think may be a legacy from Sony's early digital audio using based on
} video cassettes.
:} 48 is linked to dolby digital, surround and dvd video standards... half of
the encoding software I've used will choke on anything else. {No... I don't
really care if there's software that will let me import lesser rates.}
I don't "record" ...I compose ...I generate ...I synthesize. The process
of
"recording", "processing" and "mastering" is a bit different
than the process
of creation. I might limit myself during that process for some "odd reason" but
it makes no sense whatsoever to do so... I'm not into frustration and I'm not
into producing an inferior product. ...All the online arguments, justifications
and rationalizations in the world aren't going to change that. That's like
working in 16 bit graphics files because the human eye can't see any more than
yadda yadda number of colors... I might optimize the final graphic but I'm not
about to place arbitrary limits during processing... It's just dumb.
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linux-audio-user@lists.linuxaudio.org
30 comments
15 participants
participants (15)
-
Alastair Couper -
anahata -
Claudio Mettler -
Dave Griffiths -
Jan Depner -
Juhana Sadeharju -
lee -
Lee Revell -
LinuxMedia -
Malcolm Baldridge -
Pete Bessman -
R Parker -
RickTaylor＠Speakeasy.Net -
tim hall -
Vescovi Christophe