On Sat, 14 Jan 2012 20:38:58 +0100 Jeremy Jongepier <jeremy(a)autostatic.com> wrote: I don't know, maybe I'm naive and someone will correct me, but how could this be bad? We will still of course have our free tools, plus many new users which in turn will bring more devs - isn't this optimal? best wishes, renato

On 16/01/12 09:18, Sebastian Moors wrote: In my opinion it will also add another, perhaps not so good, fact to Linux audio: marketing. I think what they will choose will be more down to how the products are marketed rather than how well it works, or which is better product. This is how it currently works in the proprietary software world. I think it is unlikely those companies will change their tactics when marketing to the Linux users. Agreed. Ross.

On 01/15/2012 11:09 PM, David Baron wrote: Hmm, RG is up to version 11.11.42. If your experience with RG is the the 1.7x series that many distros offered up long after its freshness date expired, you might check it out. -- David gnome(a)hawaii.rr.com authenticity, honesty, community

On 01/15/2012 02:35 AM, Nils wrote: Yup, I've seen it. I've seen Luppp evolve from the very beginning, when Harry showed me his first ideas during LAC2010. And about the scary part, news like this brings up questions for me. What kind of users will it attract? How many users will switch and drop software like Ardour and Qtractor? The Linux audio is a very small niche and even though it's a very hypothetical thought, software like Bitwig could damage the Linux audio ecosystem. But maybe I'm thinking too much ahead. Maybe Bitwig will run directly on top of ALSA, or even use something like PortAudio. And it will most likely not support LV2. Best, Jeremy

Am Sonntag, den 15.01.2012, 17:05 +0400 schrieb Alexandre Prokoudine: Not so long ago, for most people linux was == open source, that gone lost more and more. You didn't need to be a geek to prefer the use of open source tools, that could also lead by sozial or maybe political skills. Today, it becomes harder and harder to found a place were you could talk with people over open source tools. More and more Close Source swap into the Linux world. For me, for example that makes linux more to a 2. windows. The advance of open source is that knowledge gone be a community good. Okay, for a Musician witch just wone use the best tools to make Music, that didn't have any impact, but also musicians could be driven by there political or social state, and for those the place witch could be called "home" is slipped away.

Am Sonntag, den 15.01.2012, 18:07 +0400 schrieb Alexandre Prokoudine: Oh, I'm pretty sure you understand that full. :-)) Maybe you are good in cliches write, I'm not, and I have no interest in that. I have wrote what I mean, that's all. In that sense, bye hermann

On 01/15/2012 09:44 AM, Alexandre Prokoudine wrote: Hopefully translating Hermann's idiom: "The advantage of open-source is that the knowledge is going to be a community good". Which, considering your own estimable contributions to the community, I suspect you understand full well. Best, dp

Hi, On 15 January 2012 14:07, Alexandre Prokoudine <alexandre.prokoudine(a)gmail.com> wrote: Well if you keep your head buried in the sand and only listen to happy sunshine music then I guess that statement makes sense. But personally I've heard thousands of songs which had political content/subject - and that's without even listening to the really edgy off-the-radar stuff. Ever heard of the phrase "the personal is the political"? We should care if people use free software, but if you want to be an ignorant cuss then yes it's not worth discussing and you deserve vendor lock in and software which you have very little control over. James.

On 15 January 2012 14:43, Alexandre Prokoudine <alexandre.prokoudine(a)gmail.com> wrote: How is it childish to say you should care about software freedom? It seems justifiable to judge someone as ignorant when that person claims to not care about software freedom while using free software. Otherwise if you do actually care, you're simply being antagonistic - ie a troll - and I'm an idiot for feeding you. James.

On 15 January 2012 16:28, Alexandre Prokoudine <alexandre.prokoudine(a)gmail.com> wrote: The only thing I'm trying to suppress are ridiculous statements which rile me up. I try to make software, I try to make music and art, I try to point people in the direction of free software and it's benefits. I'm not very good at any of it. James.

On Sun, Jan 15, 2012 at 9:14 PM, James Morris wrote: Dear James, As far as I can tell noone's telling you to stop caring about software freedom. So what's actually happening is that you are are fighting against an imaginary enemy. I appreciate the vast amount of lolz you provide while doing it, but seriously, where's the sense in that? If I didn't think that free software as development model can be successful, I wouldn't be spending up to 30h weekly on various free software related activities, including (but not limited to) promoting and improving it. So, once again, the community can do a much better job at creating kickass state of the art software that appeals to people, if it gets organized and, above all, is confident that it is able to create competing products. Because, you see, James, fear comes from doubt and lack of confidence. Alexandre Prokoudine http://libregraphicsworld.org

On Sun, Jan 15, 2012 at 9:58 PM, James Morris wrote: *sigh* Childish, defensive and overreacting. How nicely we are getting along, eh? Let's try a simple test. Even though it's not a *-dev@ list, I know that a lot of developers read it. So... How many developers admit that UI and UX of their apps could be much better _and_ tried applying to OpenUsability? Alexandre Prokoudine http://libregraphicsworld.org

On Sun, Jan 15, 2012 at 1:27 PM, Alan Russell <ajrussellaudio(a)gmail.com> wrote: bad news then: you can just install JACK on windows and OS X. you can use all (most?) of your existing software with it.

On 15 January 2012 22:25, Thomas Vecchione <seablaede(a)gmail.com> wrote: I agree, it shouldn't. But it does. Not to me, but to the community, as evidenced by this thread. To me, this is all Nintendo vs. Sega -esque bickering. By 'Linux software' I meant software that doesn't run on other OS's. I gave JACK as an example but it was pointed out that it was a crap example. So let's say something like... [goes through Launcher]... JACK Rack, or Ingen, or Cinelerra, or Kluppe, or Qtractor... These are all excellent apps, running only on Linux. These are the programs which would encourage users to install Linux and become part of the community/ecosystem. Bitwig and other cross-platform apps are not. If I'm on a Mac and I buy a Bitwig license, I have the choice of just installing it and using it, or installing Ubuntu, configuring it, fighting with drivers and packages, learning a new OS, then using Bitwig. Of course I'm going to install it on the Mac. "Linux software" has nothing to do with closed or open source. It has nothing to do with the community. The vast majority of Linux-only software must be open source, but that's not my definition. I thought it was pretty simple. I came from OSX as well, but I'm used to Pro Tools and Logic and Native Instruments. I'm running Linux because I'm recycling an old desktop. So it's an experiment. But I wouldn't have signed up to the mailing list if I wasn't loving it. I now only use the Mac for recording into Pro Tools. All my sounds come from the Linux box or external sources (ie not computers). I only use PT because like you I've invested a lot of money in it, but I've invested a hell of a lot of time in learning shortcuts and so on. I also have to use Pro Tools the odd time I'm working in studios. I would say I know Pro Tools really well, and anyone who's used it knows that it's not the most user-friendly DAW. That's much harder to give up that the money involved. Then we completely agree and I don't feel picked on ;) To go back to the Nintendo vs Sega comparison, I was a Nintendo kid. But I didn't tell my friend his Mega Drive (Genesis) sucked because of the audio DSP chip, or the graphics raster engine, or the gamepad ergonomics. His Mega Drive sucked because he couldn't play Super Mario Kart or Starwing on it. I'm hopefully a little more mature now, and not really interested in a Linux vs Mac vs Windows rabble, but the fact is that any OS is defined by its software more than anything else. You could have the best OS in the world, running at a bazillion gigaflops on 10 year old hardware, but if there's only a dozen people using it and all it can do is spreadsheets and solitaire, I'm probably not interested. The platform, software and community are all part of the package when you invest in a new OS. And cross-platform software has zero impact on that. -A

On Sun, Jan 15, 2012 at 06:50:12PM -0500, Paul Davis wrote: Another thing that could happen is: - A number of Linux users buy it and use Bitwig. - After some time, version N+1 adds some nice features and at the same time drops Linux support - "we can't spend all that effort/money on supporting such a small market". - Users want to keep using their toy and switch to OSX or Windows. Ciao, -- FA Vor uns liegt ein weites Tal, die Sonne scheint - ein Glitzerstrahl.

.. Also, I wonder if it's something particularly about "popular" software that scares people? I don't remember so many complaints about Mixbus... James

Greetings, If you want to read other POVs regarding Bitwig, check out the relevant threads on KVR. Best, dp

On Mon, Jan 16, 2012 at 3:40 PM, Jostein Chr. Andersen wrote: I'd rather not worry about Pianoteq. They developed the prototype on Linux with JACK, so releasing a Linux version of the final product was a natural thing to do, even though it took some time. Mixbus and linuxDSP seem committed too. P.S. What's NDK? :) Alexandre Prokoudine http://libregraphicsworld.org

On 01/16/2012 11:10 AM, Fons Adriaensen wrote: happens all the time, in different ways. so what. user migration is a healthy thing. imagine all those people used to open source and honest communication and no bullshitting, and they suddenly flood the support channels of $YOUR_FAVOURITE_CLOSED_SOURCE_BOGEYMAN, letting them know in no uncertain terms that they don't care if their support chat bot is a boob-job blonde called "charlene" (don't laugh, that's what hewlett-packard had me believe when i tried to explain to them that their windows scanning software shouldn't be hardcoding C:\Documents and Users\ as a home directory prefix). rather, they will tell them that this is a one-liner and why can't it just be fixed, like, now? call me a nutcase, but i like this idea :D might as well go the other way: vendor falls in love with jack so much that s/he can't be bothered to implement ASIO anymore :)

Hey guys, to drop my 2 cents into the jar of discussion, I personally see more proprietary apps arriving, but see it in a more positive light. First of all, as a libertarian anarchist, I do believe that people might choose to write proprietary software and to choose proprietary software. Proprietary software is such a problem only and only because modern computing world basically forces it on people. If we have some proprietary apps arriving to the fundamentally free platform which is GNU/Linux, this will be a choice situation. Yes, proprietary apps may have more features, but not necessarily. Yes, if Adobe starts doing Photoshop for Linux, it is possible GIMP will not be as prominent on Linux. But those will now be choices. And it is obvious from what I see Rui doing with Qtractor that it stands on its own. Bitwig does not necessarily exclude Qtractor or Ardour, not to mention that more people on Linux Audio might interest them in JACK and all the stuff. Routing low-latency audio will always have a strong appeal. And we'll also see how "piracy" works on Linux. Remember, there is no registry here. And with the amount of hacking talent you might very quickly see that proprietary software developers either will have to abandon GNU/Linux or else offer something that is really appealing and not just copy if files for lots of money. -- Louigi Verona http://www.louigiverona.ru/

On 01/15/2012 10:48 PM, Louigi Verona wrote: If Adobe did Photoshop for Linux, I predict it wouldn't effect GIMP at all. Photoshop has an arcane UI, refined to match the expectations of graphic artists who've been using Adobe products for ages now. The Adobe UI is NOT user friendly! Adobe graphic design products are also not CHEAP. Their target market is the professional graphics designer, working in places where putting out a couple of thousand dollars for their tools is nothing compared to the income they make from it. And, finally, most pro graphic designers use Macs. Not Windows, not Linux. They like the Mac UI's attention to visual detail and consistency. They like how Apple treats art and graphics people, (vs Windows which basically ignores them, and Linux which thinks that every user is or should also be a programmer, fluent with the command line, etc.) IMHO, Microsoft ignores graphic designers because in repeated (not-well-done efforts) they've been unable to crack the market. Other competitors with much stronger Windows graphics products than MS have barely been able to survive, let alone grow (CorelDraw, Xara). Anyway, I use a closed-source, proprietary product, Bibble 5, for my RAW photo processing. It has Linux, Mac and Windows versions. Very highly regarded in its field. Corel just bought the company; the Mac and Linux development will remain in BibbleSoft's Texas HQ, the Windows version will move to Corel's HQ. Considering what Corel did with its other Linux products (killed them), I may have to find a replacement for it. And the other RAW processing software on Linux just is not feature competitive. -- David gnome(a)hawaii.rr.com authenticity, honesty, community

On 01/17/2012 03:09 AM, Alexandre Prokoudine wrote: That's true, they were doing it on personal computers before anyone else. Corel was never in the Mac graphics market. CorelDraw is Windows only. WordPerfect was in the Mac market: their last version of WP for Mac was winning awards from Mac magazines of the time when WP dropped the Mac market. Just installed it from Sid repository (Ubuntu is an abomination). Darktable looks cute. I think it has about 10-20% of the features of Bibble 5. Maybe 40% of the features of Bibble Lite. The UI is cute. Absolutely no clue about how to save an image after you develop it: nothing in the UI indicates anything about it. Will poke around at it some more, but not feeling particularly optimistic right now about it. -- David gnome(a)hawaii.rr.com authenticity, honesty, community

On 01/17/2012 11:43 PM, Alexandre Prokoudine wrote: Sorry, my brain doesn't recall things so good anymore. IUCSICRAAM. All versions of CorelDraw after v7 were bloated, incredibly slow resource hogs. I used to use CorelDraw (in fact, even got a free copy of CorelDraw 2 for participating in the beta test program, identifying a bug, and suggesting the fix.) When you offer a bad product to with major flaws to a market, it doesn't go anywhere. Thanks. Not a clue anywhere in the UI about that. Very poor design. I guess incorporating standard UI actions like menus and right-click options isn't cool these days. All of these programs suffer from a severe feature shortage: none of them can turn an image into a sound! -- David gnome(a)hawaii.rr.com authenticity, honesty, community

On 01/17/2012 09:36 PM, Atte André Jensen wrote: All the ones I know use Macs. Most in shops that are exclusively Mac. Not marketing bullshit. Plain and simple experience. -- David gnome(a)hawaii.rr.com authenticity, honesty, community

Am Montag, den 16.01.2012, 13:25 +0100 schrieb Jörn Nettingsmeier: I didn't tell others what they have to do or not, I just say that I didn't like and use Close Source, and why I choose so. I guess that is free to me also.

2012/1/16 Jörn Nettingsmeier <nettings(a)folkwang-hochschule.de> Brilliant: Can I quote you when in need to explain the difference between "customer support" and "community support"? :D 2012/1/16 Rui Nuno Capela: :) Best, -Harry

On Sun, Jan 15, 2012 at 6:02 PM, Jeremy Jongepier wrote: Then it means that the free software experiment failed, and the community wasn't able to produce contemporary software that resonates with people's needs. The linux audio community currently lives its own life for the most part, and doesn't make a terrible lot of PR for what it can do. Where I live we call this "stewing in your own juice" (literal translation). Albeit I do see e.g. more interesting dedicated blogs lately (Nick Bailey's, for instance). Agreed :) Alexandre Prokoudine http://libregraphicsworld.org

On Mon, Jan 16, 2012 at 01:47:49PM +0100, Jörn Nettingsmeier wrote: The Dutch version would be more like 'frying in your own fat'. :-) -- FA Vor uns liegt ein weites Tal, die Sonne scheint - ein Glitzerstrahl.

On Monday, January 16, 2012 11:18:30 AM Lorenzo Sutton did opine: You forgot all the hand waving Lorenzo. ;) Cheers, Gene -- "There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order." -Ed Howdershelt (Author) My web page: <http://coyoteden.dyndns-free.com:85/gene> Minors in Kansas City, Missouri, are not allowed to purchase cap pistols; they may buy shotguns freely, however.

On 01/16/2012 02:55 PM, Jeremy Jongepier wrote: in popular (european) portuguese: "puxar o fogo à sua própria sardinha" which might be translated as "fire up its own sardines" (fish bbq) although, as i read it, that's exactly the one and true fundamental role of any PR. now that you got me in the thread... let me recall you of this curious short story of mine: qtractor was original and intentionally all about to be a live clone in the first place. back then, there were a few who i've religiously confessed this secret and they were all present during the lac2007@thu-berlin. yep, the one which ableton ceo presided at the keynote panel i've also predicted that it would become a reality in 3 years back then well, sorry to tell, that didn't work out, yet :) now later, incidentally, it come to my knowledge that during 2009 or so, a few of former ableton devs went out and ventured on this bitwig project... if you know me well, i'm bald. there's no wig that fits my taste whatsoever. not even a bit xD of course i'm subscribed to their beta program (or is it just a newsletter? which i've not received a single copy yet) i hope my cynicism doesn't live for long, but it's all pure PR and still vapourware atm. there isn't any real juice to stew in, is it? cheers y'all -- rncbc aka Rui Nuno Capela rncbc(a)rncbc.org

Am 17.01.2012 10:02, schrieb david: That is, at least not the meaning of the german "Kochen im eigenen Saft" (stewing in your own juce) that was the intended sense I guess.. Stewing in your own juce means: You are referencing to yourself, without searching for influence from the outside. BTW: I do not think, that such behavior is entirely wrong, as long as you are aware of the fact, hat there is an outside world, to stick to your own turf is just another strategy to cope with the world. If it is better or worse is written in results/facts in the end. best regards HZN

On 01/16/12 13:47, Jörn Nettingsmeier wrote: And same here. I was merely postulating an alternative point of view which is not necessarily mine. I'm quite good with everything open source audio software has to offer. Best, Jeremy

On Sun, 15 Jan 2012 15:02:14 +0100 Jeremy Jongepier &lt;jeremy(a)autostatic.com&gt; wrote: {ahem} Well if you find any 'spare' devs can you snaffle them for yoshimi please! -- Will J Godfrey http://www.musically.me.uk Say you have a poem and I have a tune. Exchange them and we can both have a poem, a tune, and a song.

On Sun, Jan 15, 2012 at 6:35 PM, Alexandre Prokoudine < alexandre.prokoudine(a)gmail.com&gt; wrote: Some may like to see this: http://apcmag.com/linux-now-75-corporate.htm [And some may not :-) ]

On Friday, January 20, 2012 11:17:28 AM Rustom Mody did opine: [...] :-) Nope, its good that there is a plethora of ways to approach audio on a linux system. Con nails it on the head there IMO. One distribution that I am aware of has made some kernels with his BFS patches, and I have been running those kernels on this pclos machine for quite a while. The improvement in response from the users experience angle has to be experienced in order to believe it. Its better than the deadline, its better than the teeny bit they did put into mainline & called cfs. When I do feel a lag, I can glance up at the gkrellm display and see that something else of likely dubious utility, has all 4 cores of this phenom loaded to 75+%. That stuff should run in between key presses, NOT delay them IMO. The one thing I always admired about the amiga was that regardless of what some graphics rendering application such as lightwave was doing, the amiga's response to the keyboard or mouse were absolutely instant, and it was done on a machine with a 25 mhz 68040 cpu, often with 8 megs or less of main memory. Heck, at the tv station where I was the CE for nearly 20 years, a stock 1200 and a Supergen (genlock kit) did all of our station ID graphics for nearly 10 years. Only taken down when we converted to digital. Linux, today, still could not have done that because we'd have had to schedule the trigger some random amount from 1/2 second to 10 seconds ahead of time. 'scuse me but that's bs, all that background stuff can be parked on the stack while the job it is being asked to do, gets done. But no, linux, with its kilobyte stack limit, it is far more important to finish that background housekeeping task that doesn't mean squat because there isn't room to save it on the stack. The fact that interactivity sucks because of that limit simply is not on Ingo's radar. I long since gave up banging on his mailbox with complaints, but a chance posting of a link here pulled my trigger. I am after all, now a diabetic, crotchety old fart of 77 who quit school and went out to fix tv's in 1948, and who has watched this computing thing take off almost from the gitgo. It has come quite a ways since the first program I wrote that ran on an RCA 1802 based machine, and which did a job to perfection for at least 12 years that I know of, after I had headed on down the road in search of that mythical greener pasture. Cheers, Gene -- "There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order." -Ed Howdershelt (Author) My web page: <http://coyoteden.dyndns-free.com:85/gene> You had mail. Paul read it, so ask him what it said.

On Friday, January 20, 2012 02:16:14 PM david did opine: [...] Not on that machine, but we did have 2 of those. We at one time had 6 of the amiga's, one of which was the server machine for the news pages on our web site, running software I wrote in arrex to pull the stories from the news depts AP server and format them into acceptable html you could read online 5 minutes after the newscast itself opened. I think we were first in the country to do that. CBS at first didn't like that, but soon saw that it was going to be the way things were and ceased the thinly veiled legal threats. The toasters were not terribly dependable though, they had a habit of blowing an internal supply trace & they always came back from NewTek with jumper wires from an exposed via to another to bypass the blown trace. Suffice to say they were power hungry & ran hotter than was good for them. I actually have the only a4k we had that had both a toaster, a Kitchen Sync and a 68060 cpu in it with 16 megs of ram. But in the digital changeover, its psu, a pc type I had cobbled up externally because the psu had failed and its space wound up being occupied by 2 more hard drives and a big honking fan, and somewhere in the rampage the books and the psu disappeared. If I could locate another A4k manual with schematics I could reinvent that wheel again, but I'd have to jury rig a vga convertor on it now since there are no ntsc speed monitors left in the wild today. FWIW, the convertor is being made by lots of folks in the video game business, they put a nice shiny lcd monitor in the box with their 25 year old shoot- em-up & its a brand new cash cow. The board, from Jammesoft IIRC, sells for about a 50 dollar bill. I have a spare because I used one on my TRS-80 Color Computer 3 for about a year until one of the guys on the coco list built an even better one. [...] Cheers, Gene -- "There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order." -Ed Howdershelt (Author) My web page: <http://coyoteden.dyndns-free.com:85/gene> No small art is it to sleep: it is necessary for that purpose to keep awake all day. -- Nietzsche

On Sun, 15 Jan 2012 13:11:13 +0100 Jeremy Jongepier &lt;jeremy(a)autostatic.com&gt; wrote: It seems an unjustified fear to me this - as I see it in the bazaar way of making things, diversity and change is allways something to strive for. Sure, propietary software doesn't really stay in the bazaar, but near to it. It doesn't directly give back to the community through source code, but still it brings more users to approach the linux audio environment. I personally like using free software - not for a philosophical stance, but because it suits me better. I like to be able to talk directly to the devs, see a widespread collaboration, and sometimes be competent enough to give a hand. In particulare I like very much the linux audio environment: you can do very very particular stuff that you can't with propietary software (because of course for max revenue they target main stream music) and I love this flexibility. I don't know if I'll be using bitwig beyond some toying with it (I certainly won't even touch it if it doesn't support JACK ;) ), but I wouldn't see anything bad with people starting to use it. It's not like if a mass of people starts using bitwig I won't be able to use seq24, qtractor, freewheeling etc.; I'll keep using those, and I know there are many passionate users on this list who will do the same, and more will come - not because they can't afford mixbus or bitwig, but because they simply like better free software. So IMHO our small niche totally won't be blasted away: there are too many passionate people in it, both dev and users, who have invested their free time in this (i.e. they really care about it). best wishes, renato