Hi DP, definetly it ´s a professional piece of software. I ´ve been alpha testing and works really good. I think the price range will folllow the Windows pro versions, L$40 (british pounds) for year. Althogh, there will be a free version. Cheers 2013/3/12 Dave Phillips <dlphillips(a)woh.rr.com> -- Daniel Roviriego (21) 35920701 (21) 99561654

On Tue, Mar 12, 2013 at 5:51 PM, Bearcat M. Şándor <hometheater(a)feline-soul.com> wrote: The roadmap they have posted on their site: Release a free version of Lightworks Release a full version, which includes the extra professional codecs Release cross-platform versions of Lightworks for Mac OSX and Linux as well Release the source code -- Brett W. McCoy -- http://www.brettwmccoy.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------ "In the rhythm of music a secret is hidden; If I were to divulge it, it would overturn the world." -- Jelaleddin Rumi

Cinelerra can't compare with it, LightWorks is professional software, but it does need professional gear, so Cinelerra or even kmenc15 still might be better solution for most of us. I wonder if it would be possible, to at least get an excellent timing for the cutting when using Cinelerra, but to get a good cut, such as it was done for Pulp Fiction, doesn't need the software only, but also experienced people and the raw material already has to be very good. I don't like to register, even if I pay for software, but in this case I guess it's worse to register for the free version. If I should do a video project, I would test the free version. Often whining about missing good video NLE, I today more likely need something as kmenc15, for something trivial. No learning curve, no special hardware needed. To make a real film, I suspect that Cinelerra would drive us nuts very soon. However, I don't own the hardware, even Cinelerra might be better usable than I guess, if at least a set of monitors is available. I don't know if it's possible to calibrate monitors at home. FWIW good homepage, no flash installed, YouTube does bitch about missing flash and that Firefox isn't good enough, but Firefox does play the tutorials on the LightWorks homepage.

On Wed, March 13, 2013 12:44 pm, Brett McCoy wrote: There are several options for professional AV editing on Linux. Lightworks has some industry clout because it has been used on several award winning and many successful box office hits. However they have been sitting on a beta release for over 2 years now so that's a bit lame. With a combo of Blender, Cinelerra, <FLOSS DAW>, kdenlive, Openshot, FFMPEG you can achieve almost everything that Lightworks is offering without spending any money on software. Cinelerra and Blender are capable of pulling off the vast majority of what Lightworks is offering. IMO the Lightworks interface is not more intuitive than Blender or Cinelerra. They all have a steep learning curve and require extensive background knowledge to generate professional quality output. I didn't see any mention of a hardware specific requirement for Lightworks. Not sure where that is coming from. For proprietary Linux NLE software you can use Smoke and Maya from Autodesk or Fabric Engine ( basically a proprietary clone of Blender funded by AMD ) and for proprietary 3d generators you can use Massive from the people behind Peter Jacksons animation technology or a selection of 3d game engines like Unigine, Unity, etc... For a proprietary version of FFMPEG you can purchase a license from multicorewareinc if you are a large studio, scientific organisation or government agency and you meet their strict guidleines on gaining access to their proprietary codebase. Hint. First you need lots of money and second you have to be on the official technology sharing whitelist. There are also several open source 3d game engines like cube2 that have advanced features and potential if you don't want to spend money on software as well as the one built directly into Blender. What would be very cool IMO, is for Blender to integrate with external game engines like cube2. There is also makehuman for those who like to create humanoid models for their 3d environments... All the big names in the movie industry have embraced Linux (except AVID). It's taking a while longer for the music software industry to get it. The truth is if they don't catch up soon they will miss their chance. I give it 6 months before the companies stubbornly clinging on to the windows/mac platforms get slammed now that Steam for Linux has been released and all those people who were only keeping a Windows box to play games on are released from that burden. -- Patrick Shirkey Boost Hardware Ltd

On Wed, 2013-03-13 at 09:47 +0400, Louigi Verona wrote: RAM, CPU and graphics, anything else is optional and depends to our individual needs. Regards, Ralf

On Wed, Mar 13, 2013 at 12:38 AM, Patrick Shirkey < pshirkey(a)boosthardware.com&gt; wrote: yeah, they should took a lesson from the ardour team. that's for sure.

On Wed, Mar 13, 2013 at 12:38 AM, Patrick Shirkey < pshirkey(a)boosthardware.com&gt; wrote: There really aren't several options for professional AV editing, if by professional you mean AV editing in need of more advanced workflows. I spent some time a year or two ago looking through every available option I could find, and even for my, pretty dang basic(*), workflows I need at my work they were all exceedingly limited and didn't hold a candle to commercial proprietary options out there. Remember professional can mean more than just you get paid in terms of both audio and video editing, it can also mean something that allows you to work FAST and work through particular workflows. * In this case I was just looking for something with a usable titling solution, I would have used Openshot with Blender integration myself, that could easily and effectively do a basic chroma key and mask to allow me to overlay the video on top of other video or generated backgrounds. This is really what I would consider 'entry' level for most professional video applications, and everything out there, if it could even do it, took a multiple of the amount of time I could do it in FCPX (Or FCP7) in, time which frankly I just don't have, and again my workflow isn't nearly as demanding as other studio workflows. This doesn't even touch on grading requirements, etc. I should note that I tested the NLE in Blender before Tears of Steel was released and that work pushed into main or released, so it may have improved there some at least. Blender is decidedly focused on integrating 3D into the workflow, which is a good thing. It does mean that using it for straight video work is much more time consuming as well though. Cinelerra was just a hassle in many ways when I tested it, it was actually one of the least succesful for the time and workflow aspect I mentioned above, in no small part due to the instability, but also from an aspect of workflow as well. I wouldn't call either smoke or maya a professional NLE for a video editor. They are tools to use in the pipeline primarily, for VFX or 3D generation much moreso than an NLE. Not sure what this has to do with an NLE at all. We have been through this before, you are severely overstating things. I would say you are VERY overly optomistic. This is coming from a gamer that uses Linux for his professional audio work, and coordinates video work with three other people, and none of them would he consider Linux an option for right now. Seablade

On Wed, Mar 13, 2013 at 9:08 PM, Patrick Shirkey &lt;pshirkey(a)boosthardware.com While I respect your enthusiasm and optimism, like all stats those can be interpreted as you wish if you want to be selective. For instance, just Windows 8 users alone, an OS which has been roundly bagged in the four months or so it has been on the market, actually "eclipse" Mac and Linux users combined and has a faster growth rate as well. Not to mention that most of the games ported to Linux Steam have been either indie titles or very old titles (like 10 years old). Some of them, like those from Frictional Games were already on Linux. So what has been made available through Steam may be convenient, but is hardly game changing just yet. I agree that we don't need to be pessimistic about the future of Linux, but hype is hype and can often be more harmful than helpful if one wants to be taken seriously.

On Wed, Mar 13, 2013 at 9:31 AM, Paul Davis &lt;paul(a)linuxaudiosystems.com&gt;wrote;wrote: Heh beaten by Paul, sorry I have been out in the country for the past several hours with no cell service or internet, and with better things to do that I get paid for:) Seablade

On Wed, Mar 13, 2013 at 4:51 PM, Thomas Vecchione &lt;seablaede(a)gmail.com&gt;wrote;wrote: For the record, this was the Kontakt format thread back in September of 2012 (Approx 6 months ago now). Seablade

On Tue, 2013-03-19 at 21:21 -0400, Robert Vogel wrote: No Bob, there's no release date, it's just the usual noise "hello we provide a professional application, with a sane workflow for Linux too", but they don't. "Before the end of the first quarter of 2013 we will be making the Linux version of Lightworks available as a Public Beta, the same as with the latest Windows Beta. A confirmed date will be announced once we finialise some more improvements. There is still a lot of work to be done primarily in finishing off the new licensing scheme which we will be trialling with the Linux Beta. If it proves successful, this same licensing will be rolled out to the Windows and Mac versions. More information will follow early next year as it becomes available." - http://www.lwks.com/index.php?option=com_kunena&func=view&catid=19&… Take care not to miss the 2 hour window to test the beta release ;), http://www.omgubuntu.co.uk/2013/01/lightworks-for-linux-opens-alpha-access-… . Regards, Ralf

On Wed, 2013-03-20 at 11:57 +0400, Louigi Verona wrote: Following jack devel mailing list, I'm aware that even many Windows user like Linux software, e.g. jack and it's cynical (Patrick just named it "ironic") that there now is jack available for iOS, but not for Android. However, until now I couldn't find jack for iOS.

On Wed, Mar 20, 2013 at 3:57 AM, Louigi Verona &lt;louigi.verona(a)gmail.com&gt;wrote;wrote: nope, for the very reasons you outlined earlier.

On Wed, March 20, 2013 12:57 am, Louigi Verona wrote: That would take a generic linux, something the big players (ones with money and who make money supporting linux) are working hard on. As a user of a derivative of Ubuntu, my hope is that this generic Linux doesn't make the uses I want to do impossible. In this generic Linux, support is important and that means locking out user changes. Speaking of which. Where is ALSA at? Where is firewire support? or bluetooth support? If there is one area I would like to see more developers that would be it. Jack supports more than ALSA with FW and pulse (much as it is hated) supports BT audio that alsa doesn't. -- Len Ovens www.OvenWerks.net

Ralf Mandorf: ... ... If you need help with rfid, sen me a mail. I have been working with http://www.securakey.com and http://www.feig.de readers. I have some code at http://turkos.aspodata.se/git/c/libaspoprotocol/ Regards, /Karl Hammar ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Aspö Data Lilla Aspö 148 S-742 94 Östhammar Sweden +46 173 140 57

On Tue, 2013-03-12 at 21:44 -0400, Brett McCoy wrote: Brett, that's why I came to simple software like kmenc15, but apps like kmenc15 can't be used for real film cut, only to do very rough and low level editing.

I personally use kdenlive right now and it suits my simple needs very well. Actually, for the first time on Linux I am quite happy with basic video editing. As for Ralf's prediction of everyone jumping on Linux, I think this is not happening in the near future - if ever. The percentage of desktop Linux usage is very-very low, even to this day. The highest number I ever heard was 10% and it was the only time I heard it. The rest of the numbers are always within 5%. And while none of these polls are accurate, I do see that Linux Desktop, in spite of its wonderful progress, is nowhere even near mass adoption. In fact, even if we magically get all the software everyone needs right now, the adoption would be slow.

On Wed, March 13, 2013 11:10 pm, Louigi Verona wrote: Those numbers are absolutely incorrect. There are more people using Linux variants in China than the whole population of the USA... A lot of long term Linux users keep windows machines around only because they like to play games. That tide is turning now for desktop gamers with Steam for Linux. In addition the whole gaming market is getting right royally reamed by the mobile gaming market. With Android dominating in that space too. There are a lot more people using Linux for daily use than the official statistics are allowing for. Anyone who bought a dual boot machine is only counted as running that other OS for example. Often when people buy a barebones system running a variant of Linux they are not even counted. Anyhow with Android, ChromeOs, Amazon Kindle, FirefoxOS, Samsung getting behind Tizen again and Huawei making a massive push it is safe to say that Linux on the desktop has arrived. Just not in the form that all the PC dinosaurs were hoping for ;-) -- Patrick Shirkey Boost Hardware Ltd

On Wed, Mar 13, 2013 at 8:53 AM, Louigi Verona &lt;louigi.verona(a)gmail.com&gt;wrote;wrote: absolutely. and neither can the kindle. it is fine to say "Linux is now widely deployed in many millions of devices". this has nothing to do with the number of devices that are in use that can run the type of software that people on this list use (and develop).

Am 13.03.2013 13:53, schrieb Louigi Verona: Android is Googles OS with a Linux-Kernel, so is ChromeOS. And it has no real impact regarding issues like hardware-support because Android does not need to run on PC-Hardware, it does not even have a real USB-port. So some may ask: But it is still some sort of Linux no? Does that not mean, that Linux in general has arrived on the markets to get its share? It has not, nobody who speaks about Android to sell it, mentions Linux. Because Android is a product and more than 90% of the money, that Google spends to develop Android as a product is for marketing. Names matter in marketing, more than much else. Android is the brand to be pushed on the market, nothing else. Last time I checked, Canonical did the same about Ubuntu. End-user oriented media adapts that gratefully, they speak about Ubuntu and many do not even mention Linux in articles about Canonicals Distro. The money to promote Ubuntu is spent to promote Ubuntu, nothing else. This is, how marketing for end-users/consumers works. Quality does not sell, stability does not sell, freedom does not sell at all -- marketing does. Real bad quality and stability and maybe even severe lack of respect for the user can, in some cases, contradict marketing to some extent. But only, if there is an alternative, that is pushed to the market real hard with billions of Dollars behind it. MacOSX is such a competitor and it comes with better quality so nobody is bothered too much by the fact, that it slaps the face of the user even harder than Microsoft. Android is another and Ubuntu is a dwarf- if not microscopic player in that ring. Imagine, all the devs, that write free software *would* be payed decently for their good work. Sum up all the salaries and apply a multiplicator such as 100 and you got the figure needed to really push GNU/Linux on the market.

On Thu, 2013-03-14 at 00:51 +0400, Louigi Verona wrote: Louigi points out something very important. The averaged knowledge about computers by the majority of Windows desktop computer users is far below the knowledge of the averaged subscriber to LAU. Even for wide spread computers were the kernel often was mentioned, the C64 is one of those, just a special type of user did know what the kernel is. However, when we say "Linux", we usually do not mean the kernel only. I use the words "Linux" and "BSD" not for the kernel only, but also call the user space "Linux" and "BSD". How do you call the user space for your distro?

Ivan, the fact that people have to crack software and that it is illegal is because of copyright, not because of proprietary software. Take away copyright - and everyone can crack all they want. Will there be less proprietary software? Possibly.

On Thu, Mar 14, 2013 at 8:19 AM, Ivan Tarozzi &lt;itarozzi(a)gmail.com&gt; wrote: advice: don't get into a disagreement with Lougi about copyright, at least not until you've read everything he has every written on the topic ;)

Haha! I promise not to debate copyright here ;-) On Thursday, March 14, 2013, Ivan Tarozzi &lt;itarozzi(a)gmail.com&gt; wrote: ;) -- Louigi Verona http://www.louigiverona.ru/

On Thu, 2013-03-14 at 13:28 +0100, Ralf Mardorf wrote: Many people are stupid and grabby, you often will hear a similar argumentation as "if I'm not doing it, somebody else will do it and so somebody else has an advantage and I'm in a less good position", seen from a pseudo-Darwinistic point of view. It's not Darwinistic, but people still think like that. At least it's as Konrad Lorenz studies say, group behaviour, do the same as everybody does, if not you'll run into trouble.

Am 13.03.2013 21:51, schrieb Louigi Verona: I agree on this and on most of the other things you write. But methinks, I have not pointed out clear enough, what I was to say ;-) If Linux arrives on the markets, is recognized as important enough to be supported by hardware-makers, is accepted by the general public as a thing that stands besides Mac and Windows as a real alternative, does not depend on Linux as such. It depends on marketing efforts. If somebody takes a well-designed Distro with properly maintained repos such as Mageia, Ubuntu, Fedora or Arch and adds PR plus advertisement worth 4-500 Million dollares and announces, that everybody can buy devices with this distro on every corner everywhere on the planet, then there is a product, that competes with Mac and Windows. Google kind of did so with Android. Maybe Canonical plans to do so some day sooner or later. But even the most perfectly designed Linux-Distro cannot compete with anything, based only on its technical features. Microsoft tells the people: "Buy Windows and you are on the secure side, as mainstream as you can possibly get." Apple tells the people: "Buy a Mac and be mainstream but some kinda special too." Google tells the people: "Buy us and try something kinda new, look we are a bit cooler than the others, so be with us and soon you do not need that PC-thing anymore..." What will someone say, that tries to push Linux to the markets? Someone, who commits half a billion dollars capital in the campaign, that is. Markets are controlled by money, not by quality of products or let alone sane decisions of costumers. Costumers choose from that, what they see on shelfs and owner of market-shares decide, what is on the shelfs. I know and you know and everybody on this list knows, that Linux is but a Kernel. But to the general public "Linux" is a complete OS plus applications. This is more or less good enough for me. nteresting though, that some 7 years ago a friend told me, he purchased a boxed "Linux 9.2" it was Suse 9.2 -- he named it Linux, because he did not know, that there are other Distros out there also: there was just one boxed Linux on the shelf he picked it from.... Today I meet people, that installed Ubuntu and do not know, that it is a Linux.... ;-) Hopefully Ubuntu-users will have enough education about their OS, to know that a scanner or printer, that works with Ubuntu will work with Fedora or Mageia as well.... And that they know, that if they should dislike Unity, KDE or XFCE is just a few clicks in the packagemanager away. Not mention a Kernel, mention the technical basis of the ecosystem. "GNU/Linux" would be appropriate but "Linux" is good enough with the advantage, that one cryptic syllable less needs to be explained ;-)

On Thu, Mar 14, 2013 at 08:36:40PM +0300, Louigi Verona wrote: Yeah, I sort of agree, depending on the product, but how do you explain the success of Coca Cola and McDonalds. I reckon they are only successful *BECAUSE* of the marketing. But I suppose there are exceptions to every idea. P.S. I'm not going to debate the quality of Coca Cola or McDonalds, just like I'm not going to debate whether the earth is flat. -- "If you're not careful, the newspapers will have you hating the people who are being oppressed, and loving the people who are doing the oppressing." --- Malcolm X

Am 16.03.2013 14:09, schrieb Paul Davis: Correct. Most childern, that ever have tasted the Burger will not allow their parents to pass by a McDonalds/BurgerKing "restaurant" whithout heavyly demanding to stop and buy. Anyway: the marketing is not only the advertisement, that is not even the most important part. The most important is, that *there are* MacDonalds/BurgerKing/CocaCola selling points on every corner upon the face of the planet. And everybody, who walks in, *knows* what he/she will find inside. It is a selling-infrastructure, that sells products. If you have none, you do not compete... There was a franchise here in Berlin trying to sell such stuff, they called them self Gorilla. The food was not so bad but not fantastic either and about 30% more expensive then other fast food vendors. They have closed down....

On Sat, 2013-03-16 at 15:43 -1000, david wrote: That's a good bridge. For me it was different. They had no toys when I was young, or at least I wasn't aware of it, but McDonalds was new, from a nation that was very impressing to for me, when I was a child, so I was interested to visit McDonalds and as a young adult it was very comfortable to have a drive in, that was opened at night, while anything else in Germany was closed. The bridge to Linux is, that today I'm not interested in audio engineering as a job, but I like to work with children. I already worked at to elementary schools. They have computers for the children and they are missing software for children. On all computers is Windows installed. When they searched for a good panting software I introduced Tux Paint, so the educators tested it at home and they were very impressed. I also recommended Edubuntu. The problem I was willing to maintain the computers for free as in beer, they were not interested. They didn't like the Windows software they had, they did like Tux Paint, but they did not install it, even not as a Windows version. One educator already tried to install Ubuntu on his machine, before he knows me, but installation failed, seemingly a hardware issue. They'll keep Windows, because it's on the computers, they install all kinds of crap, all kinds of virulent software, as long as it is common, even cracked, software. They 1. all don't trust the free software that is good and they 2. don't trust me and they won't trust you. They guess it could damage the computer. They guess you or I would be interested and able to get access to their office network, if we would install software to the children computers, that aren't connected to the office network. The adults aren't educated, but they educate children in using computers, especially regarding to security. My last boss was sued, because somebody else downloaded illegal music over her not bad encrypted wireless network. They have knowledge about didactic, but no knowledge about computers, so they know how imprinting does work and they know about their own bad experiences with Windows, so they make the children becoming Pavlov's Dogs regarding to computers: - The most safe OS and software is the latest version of Windows with even illegal copied software - Even the academic educators using this most safe software made bad experiences with using it (Windows), _from_ illegal downloads with non-protected or at least bad protected wireless network, _to_ female educators that had 3 bad ex-boyfriens, gotten to known by a social network (with Linux they guess it would be 6 bad ex-boyfriens) If it's for free, it must be evil. Why should people give something for free as in beer and in speech? Even something serious and trustful as Windows and it's software already is unsafe. And when I one time tried to install Ubuntu and it failed, that must be, because Linux is risky. Ok, we often hear from computer freaks that Linux is more safe, but a computer freak I trust helped me to make my Windows secure, but I still run into issues, it wasn't safe, so even the computer freak couldn't set up my Windows safe enough, that does mean something less known, giving less information than Windows, must be less secure. You've got no chance to educate those adults. Explain them that there's a community and that the source code is available (more information than for Windows), so there can't be something bad in the programs, they don't understand. They understand that open source code is more risky (wehn they nderstand that there is more information) than closed source code. You can give them the information how to learn them self that Linux is more secure, if they won't believe your words, but they won't learn, since the adults who make the children becoming Pavlov's Dogs are Pavlov's Dogs them self. They are caught in a paradox. First Linux is unsafe, because there is less information, than when they know more about Linux, it's unsafe, because there's too much information. It's not about facts, it's about emotions. And hey, haven't you seen the commercial for the current, best version ever, of IE? Alex Clare is such a cute man and "To close" is such a wonderful song. They never ever would go to McDonalds, because it's not hip to do it, but they don't reflect it, it's just a fashion. If it isn't McDonalds, they believe all the commercials. The female educators get wet panties when they listen and watch Alex Clare (don't call me sexist, when I simply say the truth) and hey current Microsoft commercials show me that I can set up Windows using different colour themes. I can make my Windows fit to my Ikea furniture, while Linux still does look like XP ... yes, thanks to all the computer magazines we've tons of "improved" Linux in Germany. The medias for those magazines often provide e.g. Debian, Suse, Ubuntu, but not by the original install media, they make own versions, it's not only that they sometimes make it look like XP, they also make tweaks that break the stability. IMO the Linux community shouldn't start to compete against Windows commercials. Windows does the "better" commercials, Alex Clair won't sing for Linux and even if we could pay him to do it, that's IMO against the idea of free as in speech. Linux anyway isn't a Windows replacement. People need education and you can't force them to learn, so what we need is time, they need to touch the hot cooktop again and again and they need to see, that we have less burned hands, than they've got. One day they will understand.

Am 17.03.2013 02:43, schrieb david: YEah: its like people, that hate Win or Mac still use it, because the Plugin, they are most fond of, runs on Win/Mac only.

Le 16-03-2013 10:01, Hartmut Noack a écrit : How come I am now craving a listen to Rammstein's "Amerika" ? ;-))

On 17.03.2013 13:50, Ralf Mardorf wrote: millions of death people for you is not worth to care about? you know - this thread is OT for days now, for my taste more than enough. but in case of a.h. it f.... does matter if one is pro or contra... please stop writing like this. this list is about linux+audio. think about, that with statements like above you can very much hurt peoples feelings. doc

On 17.03.2013 14:55, Ralf Mardorf wrote: and please don't use the 'we' form. perhaps you wanted to speak about yourself, but don't try to speak about everyone.... no, i would have been happy, if YOU never found to linux and to this list. find some other list to discuss stuff like this...

On 17.03.2013 15:51, Ralf Mardorf wrote: i agree with you.

Le 17-03-2013 10:07, Dragan Noveski a écrit : Although this is off topic as far as it brings societal reflexions with a bit of Linux here and there, I'm afraid you do not get it. The 'we' above refers to people in general in the context of reflecting on what many people can follow. Eg.having a discussion about ideas and themes. For instance, many people like top 10 music not necessarily because it's good music (in general) but because it is accepted (promoted as such) by many, many, many people. Some have the Bible to follow. Some wants to focus on bad villains as if the world is a batman movie and other people know this and serves villains for breakfast, lunch, and supper. So in discussions, 'we' is used, because the speaker is perhaps also not that much better than the people in general. The first step to realize matters is to see it within ourselves (there goes again the 'we'). It is not because it is seen that it will be scared and go away - I'm talking here about an immaterial thing, not about someone. After all the best music out there is the one that has some reflexion behind it ;-) And the best OS out there does indeed have quite a bit of reflexion behind it, if only to present a new, open, way of bringing SW to people, new business models, and new copyrights. So although this is off topic, I would not censor it. People express themselves for a bit, then the thread will go away. If you look at LAU output on a graph for all the years it existed, that will be a tiny small bump on the graph. No urge to censor there.

On Sat, Mar 16, 2013 at 09:09:42AM -0400, Paul Davis wrote: According to the book What Rich Dads teach their Kids that Poor Dads Don't, the guy that started McDonalds corrected a class of marketing students who thought he was in the burger business, by basically saying that he was in the real estate business, "I own prime real estate all over the world." That tells me that he doesn't give a "tinker's cuss" what goes into the burgers sold at his outlets, and If you've ever wondered how they can create $2.00 burgers then you're not alone and a documentary (which I don't remember the name of) insinuated it was the dead cattle found in farmers fields. There's pride in the product, sure, but the product ain't burgers! -- "If you're not careful, the newspapers will have you hating the people who are being oppressed, and loving the people who are doing the oppressing." --- Malcolm X

On 03/16/2013 03:19 AM, Ralf Mardorf wrote: Starbucks. IIRC, 2nd largest restaurant chain in the world now. -- David gnome(a)hawaii.rr.com authenticity, honesty, community http://clanjones.org/david/ http://dancing-treefrog.deviantart.com/

On Sunday 17 March 2013 05:51:55 Ralf Mardorf wrote: Fantastic, this must be one of the best books ever then: http://www.lulu.com/shop/drew-roberts/sayings-deterred-bahamian-novel/paper… all the best, drew

On Sun, 17 Mar 2013 22:51:40 +0100, &lt;jonetsu(a)teksavvy.com&gt; wrote: I've forgotten to ask drew, but I hope it was noticeable. I moved the thread to http://lists.alioth.debian.org/pipermail/d-community-offtopic/2013-March/00… http://lists.alioth.debian.org/pipermail/d-community-offtopic/2013-March/00… etc. Btw. I claimed that somebody wrote audio software and didn't allow to use it to record religious content, AFAIR it was ironically, but with the wish really not to use it for religion. IIRC the license was a clean GPL, so even the pope was allowed to use it.

You know fellas, we are talking abstract things and how great it is for Linux to go mass market and we wonder what is wrong. But I can give you a simple example of what is wrong. I am right now on Xubuntu 12.04. So this is not 1975 or 1984 or even 1995. It is 2013. Yet, when I ask - how do I make Xubuntu to autologin my user instead of asking for a password every time, you know what I am told? I am told to open a config file in a text editor, go to a particular line and write in a certain value. This is the reason Linux does not go mass market.

On Mon, Mar 18, 2013 at 4:12 PM, Louigi Verona &lt;louigi.verona(a)gmail.com&gt;wrote;wrote: To be fair, this is a reason XFCE maybe doesn't go mass market. In KDE, it is a simple menu option. And to put it in perspective: http://support.microsoft.com/kb/315231

PS: Don't get me wrong! I'm pro making Linux more used, to get better driver support, but I'm completely against it, if it's done by abandon diversity and configurability. You might argue that providing a GUI would still enable to use an editor instead. No, take a look at the Wikis, than they only will explain how to use the GUI, without mentioning how to do it with an editor. And we will get "don't edit this file"-text and lines of irrelevant code for the configurations. [root@archlinux rocketmouse]# cat /run/media/rocketmouse/q/boot/grub/grub.cfg set timeout=8 set default='0'; if [ x"$default" = xsaved ]; then load_env; set default="$saved_entry"; fi set color_normal='light-blue/black'; set color_highlight='light-cyan/blue' menuentry "FreeBSD"[snip] Still not well maintained, but at least better than an auto-generated grub.cfg and much faster to set up than using the configuration files to configure this configuration file. What next? Having a GUI to configure the configuration files for the configuration file? And than a GUI to configure the GUI, that does configure the [snip] ;)? -- Oskar Sala - Elektronische Impressionen Nr. 2 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YJoRIlb6kTs Firefox 19.0.2 doesn't need a Plugin to play the video.

On 03/17/2013 09:12 PM, Louigi Verona wrote: Yah, XFCE's pursuit of "lightness" is also light on some pieces of functionality. Personally, I'm OK typing in my password each time. Seems worthwhile to have one barrier against some casual computer thief getting into my stuff. But whatever floats your boat! ;-) -- David gnome(a)hawaii.rr.com authenticity, honesty, community http://clanjones.org/david/ http://dancing-treefrog.deviantart.com/

On Mon, 2013-03-18 at 10:37 -0400, drew Roberts wrote: By not using a display manager for login, but by starting Xfce by .xinitrc directly or what needs to be used to start it + screensaver, e.g. gdmflexiserver or xscreensaver-command -lock or similar, I won't make inquires now, but there for sure is a way to do it. -- Oskar Sala - Elektronische Impressionen Nr. 2 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YJoRIlb6kTs Firefox 19.0.2 doesn't need a Plugin to play the video.

On Mon, March 18, 2013 11:41 am, david wrote: As one user said, it is worth while in a production environment where in the event of a power out, the system can restore itself to running on power restore even unattended and when some of those apps are GUI apps run after an X login. The immediate lock still requires typing a password and most DMs default to the last used id anyway. So no typing is saved at all anyway... that was not the point of the exercise in the first place. Having done a little support work on IRC, I have learned that nobody else works the way that makes sense to me. Some times I help them do it the wrong way and find out later that it makes really good sense for their particular use. -- Len Ovens www.OvenWerks.net

On Monday 18 March 2013 14:41:05 david wrote: And dead air is better? There are situations where a machine needs to start back up and go properly into operation after a reboot without a person being present. If your situation does not call for that, fine. Some people deal with situations where such a feature is valuable. Why should they not explore the best way to do what needs to be done? It has nothing to do with saving keystrokes. It has to do with no one being present to make those keystrokes. all the best, drew

On Wednesday 20 March 2013 04:37:08 david wrote: No probs, it is just that we often don't think of all the wonderful ways people might be using something and so question their desires too soon. all the best, drew

Security from who? My laptop sits on a table in my house. Unless a thief breaks in, I doubt there is any danger. Also, I am not against security. I am for making it easier to work with the system. Having a clear option to turn auto login on or off has nothing to do with security per se. On Mon, Mar 18, 2013 at 2:22 PM, Chris Bannister &lt;cbannister(a)slingshot.co.nz -- Louigi Verona http://www.louigiverona.ru/

On Monday 18 March 2013 09:35:42 Louigi Verona did opine: Your laptop connects to the internet, right? Its been said many times that the average life of a winblows machine connected directly to the net via the wifi port on your modem, is between 5 to 20 minutes until its been hacked and 'powned' as they say. I get enough spam that if it were edible, my family would all weigh 350 lbs each. The more obnoxious stuff gets a kill at my isp based on the 1st 3 octets of the source address. That means I never again see the output of that particular xx.xx.xx.256 again. So go ahead, bypass anything that looks like a hard to guess password, but when 30 minutes later your machine is blasting the world with assorted spam and phishing emails that I will eventually consign to the black hole of my ISP's equivalent to /dev/null, don't say you weren't advised. Today, java has been hacked so many times its recommended that your browser disables any knowledge that there is even a java installed. Some folks are removing it completely. Its been said that the universe has unlimited quantities of both hydrogen and stupidity. But I think hydrogen may not be unlimited. Today, passwords of less than 15 characters are crackable in an hour or so. Think about that... Louigi, your presence on this list is normally both educational, and to the point, and I'm sure is appreciated by all here, I know I do. That is why I am rather surprised to see you espousing near zero security. Cheers, Gene -- "There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order." -Ed Howdershelt (Author) My web page: <http://coyoteden.dyndns-free.com:85/gene> is up! My views <http://www.armchairpatriot.com/What%20Has%20America%20Become.shtml> Bernard Shaw is an excellent man; he has not an enemy in the world, and none of his friends like him either. -- Oscar Wilde I was taught to respect my elders, but its getting harder and harder to find any...

On Mon, 2013-03-18 at 10:03 -0400, Gene Heskett wrote: The universe can transform what's given to hydrogen with less energy, at least with less energy, than is needed to transform matter to e.g. gold. do something stupid, than to be wise and as Paul already pointed out, your comment wasn't a masterpiece either :p. So the saying might not only about what already does exist, but it is perhaps about how easy it is to make hydrogen and stupidity. And he easy could solve the pseudo-issue for himself. For inexperienced computer users and most users are inexperienced, it's hard to configure simple things, it doesn't matter if they use Windows or Linux with or without a GUI. I set up Windows 8 for a friend. Sure, first I asked to install Linux. I don't have any knowledge about Windows 8, but it already was installed and self-explaining for everybody with a little bit of knowledge about computers. No googling was needed, just a phone call, to get some magic numbers from Microsoft and the data provided by the ISP. An averaged user is a user is a user is a user and not an admin. -- Oskar Sala - Elektronische Impressionen Nr. 2 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YJoRIlb6kTs Firefox 19.0.2 doesn't need a Plugin to play the video.

It was Len Ovens who game me the Settings -> Users and Groups advice. Nevertheless, I will check this option again. Will report back ;)

Nice, now we have 2 threads with very similar content ;). So this is for Re: [LAU] Autologin to locked desktop was: Re: LightWorks for Linux Demo too Arch Linux with Xfce: $ cat .xinitrc #!/bin/sh # # ~/.xinitrc # # Executed by startx (run your window manager from here) if [ -d /etc/X11/xinit/xinitrc.d ]; then for f in /etc/X11/xinit/xinitrc.d/*; do [ -x "$f" ] && . "$f" done unset f fi exec startxfce4 # exec xterm Remove the display manager and after startup there will appear the user prompt were you need to run startx to start a xfce session. IIRC that is how I did it, before I installed lightdm. Depending to your startup done by init, upstart or systemd, there might be different ways to run a script automatically that first does startx and if wanted, then does lock the screen and after that if wanted, will start the audio applications automatically. Perhaps such a script can be in $ ls -hAl /etc/X11/xinit/xinitrc.d/ total 8.0K -rwxr-xr-x 1 root root 242 Dec 6 02:23 30-dbus -rwxr-xr-x 1 root root 398 Dec 10 12:58 40-libcanberra-gtk-module

On Monday 18 March 2013 13:19:52 Len Ovens wrote: I have it logging in automatically, I think by editing /etc/lightdm/lightdm.conf I don't mind editing files, I was responding to the security question posed with an example of when you might want an autologin. Thanks for the help. all the best, drew

2013/3/18 Louigi Verona &lt;louigi.verona(a)gmail.com&gt; I think that GNU/Linux as operating system is much easier than Windows, really (even if I'm biased, I know). Windows IMO has a poor usability and people like it just because they are used to it. So it's also a matter of habits. OTOH I agree that in some fields there are programs that are not user-firendly (even if great). For example music notation: LilyPond can't compare to its proprietary competitors in "user-firendliness".. but Denemo and MuseScore maybe will.

On Mon, 2013-03-18 at 23:22 +1300, Chris Bannister wrote: I use the password login, because I want to have it for minimal security and I don't need more than this, but for serious security just having a password login is absurd. Encryption OTOH is very annoying, if you share mail directories, virtualbox settings and vdis by several different Linux on a multi-boot machine or even if you only wish to be able to easily access everything under what conditions ever. I don't need real security, just a minor protection. However, only idiots or very young children would be unable to access what ever they want, when the only protection is a password login and the default usually is nothing more but a password login without any further protection. I remember that in a German forum the moderation deleted howtos that described what users should do, if they should have forgotten their password for a non-encrypted install. It's idiotic to delete the howtos. Ok, it's also idiotic to forget the password, but OTOH some GUIs asking for a password enforce the user to use complicated passwords, instead of a password they wish to use. Why using a very secure password, when already the method of protection isn't secure? For some of my Linux I even allow to start a DE session as root. I never use it, just in case there should be a valid reason to do it, while I can't imagine one at the moment. However, this would be the other way, if everything should have a GUI for the configuration, than we directly could allow to start X sessions as root or at least to start file browsers for (the first or all) user/s by gksu or similar. -- Oskar Sala - Elektronische Impressionen Nr. 2 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YJoRIlb6kTs Firefox 19.0.2 doesn't need a Plugin to play the video.

On Mon, March 18, 2013 7:41 am, drew Roberts wrote: Take the method I used for auto login plus screenlock and after bash put the filename a script to start the whole works. In this case you would want the lock to happen at the begining so the coomand would need to backgrounded with &. -- Len Ovens www.OvenWerks.net

On Mon, March 18, 2013 10:19 am, drew Roberts wrote: I am assuming the jackdbus settings (and connections) are pretty static and would think that jack_command might be better than having qjackctl hanging around where someone might play with it. It would take a bit of learning and to be sure it is doing what you want may take more than just jack_command start, but anything qjackctl can do can be done CLI. I don't expect a control room operator to be a computer admin. (not in any TV/radio station I've worked in) jack.plumbing from the jack-tools package might make your auto connection stuff work well too. (I shouldn't have to say this, but do test these things on a spare machine running the same HW/SW as your on-air box) -- Len Ovens www.OvenWerks.net

Hi Drew! Seems we're working on similar projects right now. I don't see why anyone would want to use x11vnc when there is vnc4server (which is in the Debuntu repos). Other distros such as Fedora are using TigerVNC now as the default for VNC I see although I've not tried TigerVNC yet so I can't say how that compares to x11vnc and vnc4. I've not even bothered trying TightVNC as I've heard a few people say vnc4server is more stable than TightVNC. I get a greatly superior desktop update framerate under vnc4server over x11vnc.There is also NX free and x2go but neither are in the Deb repos and desktop sharing doesn't work out of the box on either or at least it didn't work for me and we needed that. We tried Rivendell but deemed it unsuitable for our needs. Rivendell must be one of the last active projects still using QT3. Its interface is indeed archaic looking and its functionality is spread over several different apps. It isn't intuitive to me and I'm used to decoding alpha Linux apps so forget about teaching it the non-techie hosts. It looks like we've settled on a combo of IDJC, Skype, vnc4, jack_mixer (or similar) and Liquidsoap or mpd for handling the non-live playlists. On Mon, Mar 18, 2013 at 5:19 PM, drew Roberts &lt;zotz(a)100jamz.com&gt; wrote:

The plan is for the box to be used in a regular fashion with X11 locally. The Yes, it is simple to remote into an existing desktop with vnc4server you just run: x0vncserver -PasswordFile=/home/user/.vnc/passwd (after you've set the vnc password, of course) Nice to hear. We may give it another look when the QT4 port arrives then. Good luck with your plans. Thanks Drew - good luck to you too! Keep us posted on your progress please!

On Mon, Mar 18, 2013 at 10:41:15AM -0400, drew Roberts wrote: I would look at setting up a "kiosk system", e.g. http://www.alandmoore.com/blog/2011/11/05/creating-a-kiosk-with-linux-and-x… http://users.telenet.be/mydotcom/howto/linuxkiosk/intro.htm http://linuxgazette.net/128/adam1.html But of course, if no one else has access to the computer and it is not connected to the web, then you are pretty much free to do as you wish. Hopefully, some ideas can be garnered from the web, those links above are from a quick google using "linux kiosk system" as the search term(s). -- "If you're not careful, the newspapers will have you hating the people who are being oppressed, and loving the people who are doing the oppressing." --- Malcolm X

On Mon, 18 Mar 2013 11:12:21 +0400, Louigi Verona wrote: I think Ralph was closer to pinning down what's wrong in his "It's not about facts, it's about emotions." post yesterday. I've installed both Ubuntu Studio 13.04 and Xubuntu 12.10 recently and both offered the option to 'autologin' during the installation, so I guess it has been 'fixed' since 12.10. It may be that even in 12.04 the configuration change could have been accomplished by GUI. But then the person who helped you would have had to describe a series of mouse clicks and menu choices which may not have been as easy to follow. Or perhaps your assistant was much more used to the orriginal way. No it isn't. -- John.

On Mon, 2013-03-18 at 11:12 +0400, Louigi Verona wrote: Louigi, here is one reason: http://mail.xfce.org/pipermail/thunar-dev/2013-March/004973.html Note, that I don't care for that issue any longer, since - I fixed it for myself, it's not an issue for me - reported it upstream, they are now aware of the issue I'm not interested in fighting for something I can fix myself, but it's a bad habit to blame hardware vendors, when the truth is, that Linux does cause issues. However, everybody who wants that Linux goes mass market, must care about this and other issues. I even wouldn't care if I would have to use command line, but if Linux will go mass market, than the signs of the times are important and those aren't transforming desktops environments for desktop PCs into environments for tablet PCs or mobiles, but to take care about environmentalism and other things. I agree that we are not in 1975 or even 1995. Regards, Ralf

On Wed, 2013-03-20 at 03:26 +0400, Louigi Verona wrote: Full ACK. I once was thinking about not to help my friends anymore, when they experience issues with Windows. My idea was to talk to them and to offer them, that I'm willing to maintain Linux on their computers, but never ever to fix something for Windows anymore. I scrapped this idea, because I became aware that my friends want to turn on a computer and that they want to use it without a learning curve. That is what their Windows and Apple computers provide, a common workflow for consumer and production environments. Even some of my very experienced friends, professional coders and administrators more often use Windows. The telephone isn't ringing each day, perhaps 2 times a year a friend has a minor issue with Windows. Those problems are that minimal, that if they would use Linux, they would need help several times a day. If they would have serious issues with Windows, I wouldn't be able to help, since I don't use it my self and I don't have knowledge about Windows. The Windows friends usually don't have much money and need to use hardware they get as a gift or from bulk garbage, so drivers are a serious issue. The Apple friends usually have the money to pay Apple to get rid of issues, resp. at the moment I'm not aware of anybody using Apple anymore, many people here, not only friends, switched from Apple to Microsoft. In the past they stayed away from Windows, but nowadays Windows is good enough for their needs. However, there always was compatibility. They can e.g. go to a printing company and provide the files to print a comic. You know, comics are tacked, so side 8 and 25 are on one sheet and on the backside side 7 and 26 are on that sheet. Perhaps there are apps to handle this with Linux too, but I've got doubts that there will be a sane workflow and that there won't be compatibility issues. I often experienced, that when I made a document with Open Office and went to a friend to print it on a Windows machine with Word installed, the formatting of the document was broken. People more often use a cracked version of Word, than a free version of Open Office, even those who have a cracked version of Word and Open Office installed on their Windows machines. The only real issue I've got with Linux is, that the recommended RME card isn't supported, it wasn't a good recommendation and while RME was willing to help, no Linux developer was interested in fixing the driver. It's a serious issue, but not hard for me, because I was aware of the risk and I often enough experienced that this happened for cheaper gear that is recommended for Linux usage. It's ok for me, but we can't expect that this would be ok for other users. So mass market? Linux? Never ever in the near future! Regards, Ralf

On Tue, 2013-03-19 at 18:04 -0700, Len Ovens wrote: That's the reason why Arch general became a moderated list and why people are banned from it. Even very silent people get warnings and were spammed with anonymous mails. Regarding to switching file system hierarchies, switching commands e.g. for setting CPU frequency scaling, I add variables to my scripts and when I experienced that qjackctl for Ubuntu studio can't be killed by the name qjackctl, I add the name qjackctl.foo to my scripts. The problem is, that the bloated GUI crap has impact to CLI usage, e.g. /run/media/user_name/foo once was /media/foo ok, there's the tab-key auto-completion and we still manually can chose /mnt/foo but IMO it's not sane to do those changes.

By the way, you are right, I had to install Windows one day and I was amazed - they have no drivers for things there! I am already used to most things just working out of the box - well, those that are supported, at least =)

When googling for how to resize virtualbox vdis, I found this: Mar 21, 2013 OpenShot Kickstarter Update (Day 3) http://www.openshotvideo.com/

On Wed, 2013-03-20 at 11:04 +0000, Neil C Smith wrote: Pulseaudio never worked on my machine, so it's not installed. Last try with Ubuntu Quantal and RME HDSPe AIO.

On Thu, Mar 21, 2013 at 08:16:04AM +0100, Federico Bruni wrote: Just as aside, please don't confuse Ubuntu and Debian, although Ubuntu is based on Debian there are enough subtle differences between the two to cause incompatibilities, e.g. mixing packages, assuming the documentation applies equally to Debian as well as Ubuntu. -- "If you're not careful, the newspapers will have you hating the people who are being oppressed, and loving the people who are doing the oppressing." --- Malcolm X

On 03/21/2013 08:24 PM, Federico Bruni wrote: Hmmm, I use Debian Sid and use some Ubuntu PPAs with it. I've used Debian packages on Ubuntu. Didn't have compatibility problems. But probably wasn't doing anything ambitious. -- David gnome(a)hawaii.rr.com authenticity, honesty, community http://clanjones.org/david/ http://dancing-treefrog.deviantart.com/

On 03/21/2013 10:38 PM, Ralf Mardorf wrote: I mostly use it with Debian and a couple of PPAs, but not for any nominally-Ubuntu software. I use PPAs for packages I want to use that don't have DEBs or RPMs. No package conflicts because if a package exists in a Debian repository and in Ubuntu, I use the Debian version. Only Ubuntu system we have here is my wife's netbook. She has no need to look outside the Ubuntu repositories for any software. -- David gnome(a)hawaii.rr.com authenticity, honesty, community http://clanjones.org/david/ http://dancing-treefrog.deviantart.com/

On 03/21/2013 11:02 PM, Ralf Mardorf wrote: That's OK. Some people are less comfortable with risk than others. ;-) I've run systems mixing Debian Stable, Sid and Experimental repositories, plus deb-multimedia. Makes doing things like blanket "upgrades" risky. But it worked for me when I was doing it. -- David gnome(a)hawaii.rr.com authenticity, honesty, community http://clanjones.org/david/ http://dancing-treefrog.deviantart.com/

On 03/21/2013 11:22 PM, Ralf Mardorf wrote: Very good. Reply-bots are cool. Just think! Someone could write a daemon that hooks into your mail client's out-of-office feature, analyze the text of each incoming email, generate a kind of almost-makes-sense reply, and send it off. ;-) -- David gnome(a)hawaii.rr.com authenticity, honesty, community http://clanjones.org/david/ http://dancing-treefrog.deviantart.com/

On 03/22/2013 04:17 AM, Len Ovens wrote: I get jackd2 from Debian, not Ubuntu. Need to correct a miscommunication (my fault). I don't use Ubuntu system repositories. I use some specific Ubuntu PPAs for particular package(s) that don't have a Debian package (for whatever reason). (Some people seem to think that Linux is just a synonym for Ubuntu. So I'm not risking mixing Ubuntu-specific stuff mentioned above with Debian Sid. About what Ubuntu and Debian consider "experimental" - Debian seems (to me) to prefer to err on the side of "better safe than sorry". So they'll take a package's "new" official release, and treat it as some kind of beta that needs to be extensively tested. I have a friend who's a devotee of Debian Stable. He has one exception: he pulls Iceweasel from Experimental so he has the latest security fixes. I, on the other hand, replaced the Debian-branded Firefox and Thunderbird with the real versions from Mozilla. Once installed, they automatically update themselves. -- David gnome(a)hawaii.rr.com authenticity, honesty, community http://clanjones.org/david/ http://dancing-treefrog.deviantart.com/

On 03/23/2013 05:17 AM, Len Ovens wrote: Doesn't fit me. I was cleaning out accumulated books, and found my old CorelLinux books ... I think a number of the easy-start/easy-use, ordinary desktop-oriented distros don't even include JACK. My wife runs LinuxMint on her laptop and Ubuntu on her netbook - no trace of JACK on either. I think Ubuntu is built around Pulse, anyway. I don't think Debian comes with JACK setup, either. My laptop and desktop machines run Aptosid - neither comes with JACK installed by default. My effectsbox laptop runs Musix 3, that has JACK nicely set up. When my present laptop finally dies (it's heading that direction!), I'll shift the memory over to effectsbox and it will finally have enough to be useful. (Hard to run RT with a GUI and fluidsynth and Yoshimi on a 2.8GHz old-school Celeron with 768MB of memory.) -- David gnome(a)hawaii.rr.com authenticity, honesty, community http://clanjones.org/david/ http://dancing-treefrog.deviantart.com/

On Sun, 2013-03-17 at 21:45 +1300, Chris Bannister wrote: I'm talking about the same drink ;), I just won't name all those products. Btw. you once could get a taste of brown sugar as easy as of Aspirin: http://www.herbmuseum.ca/files/imagecache/main/images/Bayer%2520Heroin%2520… When I was young and Bluse musicians sing about brown sugar, I thought they were singing about black or oriental women ;). I wasn't aware that it's possible to have such a passion for drugs. Today I wonder that I'm not addicted to opiates. Perhaps the only reason for this is, that it's to much stress to get enough opiates. If they would sell them by a good quality for less money mixed in a drink, perhaps I would be addicted. It's just that McDonalds and Microsoft don't provide what I like, but Codeine and similar drugs make me feel good. When I had toothaches I got Codeine and I felt good, still having toothaches, it doesn't kill the pain, but you don't care about the pain anymore. Why don't stay people with one Windows version? They want to feel good and get something new entertaining. Perhaps it's intended by Microsoft to add bugs to Windows! So you can become an expert, it provides new jobs, you can buy magazines and solve pseudo-issues yourself etc.. Yes, I also update my Linux, because I wont to get improved versions of Linux, but Windows always does claim to be the best OS ever, that's the difference. Windows does provide something that has nothing to do with technical facts, it does sell a good feeling to people who don't need a computer, but who want to have a computer, because it's hip to have one. We once talked about cellphones and several people on that list, AFAIR Paul, Robin and of course I, feel better without a mobile. I had mobiles myself, it was nice, new, I had fantasies about advantages, but when I owned the mobiles, I experienced that I don't need them, that they sometimes are an advantage, but more often they were a disadvantage. Why do people need all those gear? I suspect that it's because we don't have evolution, we're stagnating. We make progress regarding to technical abilities, scientific knowledge, but hat's not evolution, we are doing it already for hundreds of years. It's good that we know how to get better technology, to get more scientific knowledge, but that isn't evolution, we already have this abilities. Real progress, a real evolution would be something new. A change in social behaviour or something I'm unable to imagine would be progress. With such an evolution, we might would get rid of proprietary ideas, closed source, copyright, Windows.

On Sat, 2013-03-16 at 17:21 +0400, Louigi Verona wrote: Yes, Coca Cola has a special taste and a lot of people like that taste, it's not only a drug, but for McDonalds it's different. You can get better fast food for the same money, but not that easy, because a McDonalds is around each corner. Btw. if I would be in a country known for hygienic issues, I would go to McDonalds myself, since I expect the same "quality" in each country, even if the food IMO is crap with a bad taste, it's hygienic and it's food. Paul wrote: I doubt that you can provide it for the same price, at least real balsamic is very expensive and goat cheese still is more expensive than some processed cheese slices are. And btw. a worker needs calories and not a pretentious meal that is ok for people who don't work physically hard.

On Sat, Mar 16, 2013 at 04:23:52PM -1000, david wrote: Refined, as in white sugar and flour? Yeah, I agree there. Please, don't call them restaurants; that implies the food is prepared by a chef, and they take pride in the preparation and presentation of their food. -- "If you're not careful, the newspapers will have you hating the people who are being oppressed, and loving the people who are doing the oppressing." --- Malcolm X

On Wed, 2013-03-13 at 23:50 +1100, Patrick Shirkey wrote: Was it me or another Ralf? I don't think that Linux will have a chance during our lifetime. But we never know! Was it in the film "Bladerunner", all the futuristic Atari advertising? We don't have Atari anymore. I never could imagine that some day we would go back from parallel to serial and today I'm using SATA only. However, what ever my claims were, right now I completely agree with you. That's a good argument and I guess you're right, but China isn't known for their films and audio recordings, regarding to this we should take a look at the Western world. China is missing a little bit of understanding what "free" does mean, not a good place for artists. http://sacom.hk/mission That reminds me of the Simpsons. People were waiting in front of an Apple store to get an iThingy and they made a joke about the rareness of iProducts, so that there's the need to stay overnight, to get the last iThingy. They showed that an assembly belt did connect the Apple Store with the factory. I guess most people today have some Android, Windows or Apple thing and don't care for desktop machines anymore, especially not for professional workflows.

Patrick Shirkey <pshirkey@...> writes: population of the USA... "Variants" being the key word. It is true that Android has a larger market share than iOS in China, but this has zero bearing on the percentages of pro audio/video editing systems in use. If you're counting oranges, and you decide the numbers are not impressive enough so you include broccoli (but call them oranges), it's less than convincing. I live in China, and I promise you, on desktop and laptop systems, Linux is more rare here than in the US. The prevailing mentality about free software here is that it's better to steal proprietary software than to use free software honestly: they prefer to crack Windows than use Linux. My students (at the #3 or #4 ranking conservatory in China) think I'm a freak for using Linux; they find it impressive in some way, and exotic, but nobody wants to follow suit. On at least one occasion, someone guessed I was using a cracked OSX. Linux is barely on the radar. hjh

On Thu, 2013-03-14 at 01:06 +0000, James Harkins wrote: I believe that you say the truth and that you know what you're talking about. My _wrong knowledge_ formed by information from the media was, that in China Linux is the most used OS on desktop PCs and Laptops. But even if this would have been true, China isn't known for it's audio and video engineers. When thinking about common recording workflows, I'm thinking of the USA and Europe, mostly done on Apple in the past and today with Apple or Windows.

Would you say the free version features are enough for a typical vlogger? Doing some basic editing, adding simple transition effects, music and such? On Wednesday, March 13, 2013, Brett McCoy &lt;idragosani(a)gmail.com&gt; wrote: wrote: than -- Louigi Verona http://www.louigiverona.ru/

On Tue, Mar 12, 2013 at 05:59:30PM -0400, Brett McCoy wrote: Is it free in the sense of free beer or free speech? -- "If you're not careful, the newspapers will have you hating the people who are being oppressed, and loving the people who are doing the oppressing." --- Malcolm X

On Wed, Mar 13, 2013 at 6:29 AM, Chris Bannister &lt;cbannister(a)slingshot.co.nz&gt; wrote: Free as in beer right now, but releasing the source code is on the roadmap i the future -- Brett W. McCoy -- http://www.brettwmccoy.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------ "In the rhythm of music a secret is hidden; If I were to divulge it, it would overturn the world." -- Jelaleddin Rumi