28 Nov
2004
28 Nov
'04
11:49 a.m.
On Sunday 28 November 2004 07:52 am, Dave Phillips wrote:
Hey John:
I'll chime in with some kudos for the tune, but I agree with your own
Thanks
assessment re: the vocal, it does need to come
forward. No point in
singing words if they can't be heard or understood, yes ?
Vocals are often a problem for people who don't particularly think of
themselves as "good" singers (whatever that means: is Bob Dylan a
"good"
singer ?), and there's a resulting tendency to put the vocals too far
I say two words to my comparatively green musician friends who say "ya gotta
have good vox"; Tom Waites. AFAICT it's the same with every singer as far as
insecurity goes and I've worked with lots.
Under normal circumstances I belt, and had it been a serious recording I would
have done things a lot differently. Really, to get a good vocal mix I'd have
to shitcan the scratch track, but there's some things I really like about the
guitar performance. And you can hardly tell where I had to turn the page on
the lyric sheet! I'm still debating cutting the extra 2 beats. Probably go 12
string when it's time to rerecord.
back in the mix. The thought is often to truly
"mix" the vocals in with
the instruments, but I suggest taking it the other way on, i.e., mixing
the instruments against the voice. The song is the thing, its melody and
lyrics must be clearly heard (or at least clearly sensed: I can't
Yup. I used to work a lot with doo woppers. 'Nuff said.
usually understand the lyrics to Mudvayne but at least
their man is out
front). One of my favorite local musicians made a wonderful album years
ago, but the one mistake he made on it was to mix his voice too deeply
into the instrumental sounds. He told me he wished he hadn't done so,
and that his decision was based on his poor opinion of his own singing.
Sometimes it's best to get another opinion, I guess that's part of the
function of a good producer.
Budgets do get in the way. Years ago, I'm sure it was analog with no
automation and I can tell you that having reproduceability makes life _so_
much easier. I'm lacking 2 things right now. A quiet location and enough space
to set up my console and stands.
No tubby sound here, probably because my monitoring system is fairly
decent. The instrumental mix has a nice loose sound to it that
complements the song. I agree with Florian re: the character of the
Right well I didn't use a click or anything. I got the idea for the hook,
banged out the lyric in about 15 minutes, tried it on top of the progression
(had been kicking the tires on the progression, but with a madrigal feel),
gave it the cowboy spin and let it rip.
tune, the sounds really match the intent of the
lyrics. Good stuff,
let's hear so>
Btw, perhaps this thread is more on-topic on the users list ?
I meant to apologize for that. Sorry guys.
Best,
dp
Florian Schmidt wrote:
>On Sat, 27 Nov 2004 14:36:10 -0500
>
>John Check <j4strngs(a)bitless.net> wrote:
>>Anyhoo, I had a spark of inspiration and banged out a little sort of folk
>> tune tracked with ardour. Audacity as a front end for LAME. Still
>> getting my ears calibrated to a subpar monitoring system so forgive the
>> buried vox and any tubbyness.
>
>Great tune! I really enjyed it! And yes, the mix is a bit odd, but i
>like it. Gives the tune even more character :)
>
>Flo
28 Nov
28 Nov
8 p.m.
Last Sunday 28 November 2004 15:47, John Check was like:
Absolutely. One musician friend of mine has this dreadful tendency to
flange/chorus everything he does. He thinks this 'fattens up' the sound. I
keep trying to explain that it in fact does the opposite, it muddies it all
up into a chorusy wash. The best vocal sound is inevitably the least messed
about - maybe a little compression and a natural reverb, that's it.
Best practice seems to be to set the balance of the drums and main vocal first
and then mix everything else slightly behind, bass first, rhythmic / chordal
instruments last and usually furthest back. Backing vocals can be anything
from dry to lost in the wash depending on how close you want the harmonies
and the mood of the music.
> Vocals are often a problem for people who
don't particularly think of
> themselves as "good" singers (whatever that means: is Bob Dylan a
"good"
> singer ?), and there's a resulting tendency to put the vocals too far
No, from a technical POV, Bob Dylan is not a good singer. So what? plenty of
people love his voice and buy his records. Never really understood it myself.
My favourite singer, Robert Wyatt used to suffer from his fellow Soft Machine
members deliberately rearranging songs so he couldn't fit any vocals in.
Philistines. Beauty is in the ear of the beholder.
I say two words to my comparatively green musician
friends who say "ya
gotta have good vox"; Tom Waites. AFAICT it's the same with every singer as
far as insecurity goes and I've worked with lots.
Well, you _do_ have to have good vox, but what that means varies according to
the needs of the piece and the listener.
There are certain things that will improve vocal performance - Confidence,
relaxation, good breathing. warm-ups and a good microphone & monitoring.
Technical limitations aren't a problem if you work with them. If you've only
got a vocal range of half an octave, don't try those Maria Carey songs! Find
out where your strong notes are and pitch accordingly. Most people who tell
me they can't sing are in fact trying to sing well out of their range (Basses
who try to follow female leads at pitch for example).
back in the
mix. The thought is often to truly "mix" the vocals in with
the instruments, but I suggest taking it the other way on, i.e., mixing
the instruments against the voice. The song is the thing, its melody and
lyrics must be clearly heard (or at least clearly sensed: I can't
Yup. I used to work a lot with doo woppers. 'Nuff said. > usually understand the lyrics to Mudvayne but at
least their man is out
> front). One of my favorite local musicians made a wonderful album years
> ago, but the one mistake he made on it was to mix his voice too deeply
> into the instrumental sounds. He told me he wished he hadn't done so,
> and that his decision was based on his poor opinion of his own singing.
> Sometimes it's best to get another opinion, I guess that's part of the
> function of a good producer.
Definitely. The human voice is the closest instrument to our emotions and we
are all our own worst critics. It's important to get it right as the vocals
are also the main point of emotional contact in most songs. Remember, some of
the great stuff about Elvis is when his voice cracks with emotion. The way
you feel when you record the vocals is what gets transferred to the listener
- if you feel like you're doing a tightrope walk and only just make it to the
end or are on the edge of tears, that's what the listener will perceive.
These are often the 'magic' takes.
cheers
tim hall
http://glastonburymusic.org.uk
9:48 p.m.
On Sunday 28 November 2004 07:00 pm, tim hall wrote:
Yup
Absolutely. One musician friend of mine has this dreadful tendency to
flange/chorus everything he does. He thinks this 'fattens up' the sound. I
keep trying to explain that it in fact does the opposite, it muddies it all
up into a chorusy wash. The best vocal sound is inevitably the least messed
about - maybe a little compression and a natural reverb, that's it.
Like I used to say "you can't shine shit". Slept on the couch a few times
for
that opinion. ;)
Last Sunday 28 November 2004 15:47, John Check was
like:
Yup
> Vocals are often a problem for people who
don't particularly think of
> themselves as "good" singers (whatever that means: is Bob Dylan a
> "good" singer ?), and there's a resulting tendency to put the vocals
> too far
No, from a technical POV, Bob Dylan is not a good singer. So what? plenty
of people love his voice and buy his records. Never really understood it
myself. My favourite singer, Robert Wyatt used to suffer from his fellow
Soft Machine members deliberately rearranging songs so he couldn't fit any
vocals in. Philistines. Beauty is in the ear of the beholder.
I say two
words to my comparatively green musician friends who say "ya
gotta have good vox"; Tom Waites. AFAICT it's the same with every singer
as far as insecurity goes and I've worked with lots.
Well, you _do_ have to have good vox, but what that means varies according
to the needs of the piece and the listener.
There are certain things that will improve vocal
performance - Confidence,
relaxation, good breathing. warm-ups and a good microphone & monitoring.
Technical limitations aren't a problem if you work with them. If you've
only got a vocal range of half an octave, don't try those Maria Carey
songs! Find out where your strong notes are and pitch accordingly. Most
people who tell me they can't sing are in fact trying to sing well out of
their range (Basses who try to follow female leads at pitch for example).
Absolutely. One has to find ones voice.
back in the mix. The thought is often to truly
"mix" the vocals in with
the instruments, but I suggest taking it the other way on, i.e., mixing
the instruments against the voice. The song is the thing, its melody
and lyrics must be clearly heard (or at least clearly sensed: I can't
Yup. I used to work a lot with doo woppers. 'Nuff said. Best practice seems to be to set the balance of the
drums and main vocal
first and then mix everything else slightly behind, bass first, rhythmic /
chordal instruments last and usually furthest back. Backing vocals can be
anything from dry to lost in the wash depending on how close you want the
harmonies and the mood of the music.
That's what I like to call "juice". Nothing like a few spirit beads to make
it
real.
> usually understand the lyrics to Mudvayne
but at least their man is out
> front). One of my favorite local musicians made a wonderful album years
> ago, but the one mistake he made on it was to mix his voice too deeply
> into the instrumental sounds. He told me he wished he hadn't done so,
> and that his decision was based on his poor opinion of his own singing.
> Sometimes it's best to get another opinion, I guess that's part of the
> function of a good producer.
Definitely. The human voice is the closest instrument to our emotions and
we are all our own worst critics. It's important to get it right as the
vocals are also the main point of emotional contact in most songs.
Remember, some of the great stuff about Elvis is when his voice cracks with
emotion. The way you feel when you record the vocals is what gets
transferred to the listener - if you feel like you're doing a tightrope
walk and only just make it to the end or are on the edge of tears, that's
what the listener will perceive. These are often the 'magic' takes.
cheers
tim hall
http://glastonburymusic.org.uk
7294
days inactive
7294
days old
linux-audio-user@lists.linuxaudio.org
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tim hall