29 Jul
2009
29 Jul
'09
4:50 a.m.
Agreed.
If you want a Debian-based system, Ubuntu is much more focused on
requirements for a general-purpose desktop. Not specifically for
musicians of course, but easier to adapt for that purpose.
maybe it is more of a trade-off - 
29 Jul
29 Jul
10:18 a.m.
New subject: Why Debian necessarily?... WAS... Re: The Many Ways of Pam Limits...
Hey,
I wont answer your question on "Why Debian?", but i will say that AV linux
is amazing!
I'm really impressed with it because:
- FFADO "just worked". ie: modprobe raw1394, chmod /dev/raw1394, start jack.
Record 12 channels at 8ms for 1/2 n hour with 1 xrun.
-XFCE: Although i downgraded to stable (4.4) despite having the testing 4.6
installed, it was not much effort, and not half as bloat as KDE/full gnome.
-RemasterSys: Click the button, answer some questions (that are newbie
freindly) and have an ISO made of your exact current system. (I know other
distros have this feature, but they never seemed to work so well.
-Wine: For windows -> linux people its great: pre installed. if you dont
need it, its only a click away in Synaptic!
-I could go on, but networking, internet browsing, typing (Abiword :-) etc
all works well too, installing is a doddle, and if i take a DVD around, i
can get my entire system up & running in under 2 mins! (Upload edited files
to a git repo on Github when developing, my own site if its an update on
music.)
GMac, the "Author" of AV really done a great job in my opinion, very much
recommended!
-Harry van Haaren
6:21 p.m.
New subject: AVLinux (Was: a bunch of stuff)
On Wed, Jul 29, 2009 at 01:18:46PM +0100, Harry Van Haaren wrote:
Hey,
I wont answer your question on "Why Debian?", but i will say that AV linux
is amazing!
I'm really impressed with it because:
- FFADO "just worked". ie: modprobe raw1394, chmod /dev/raw1394, start jack.
Record 12 channels at 8ms for 1/2 n hour with 1 xrun.
-XFCE: Although i downgraded to stable (4.4) despite having the testing 4.6
installed, it was not much effort, and not half as bloat as KDE/full gnome.
-RemasterSys: Click the button, answer some questions (that are newbie
freindly) and have an ISO made of your exact current system. (I know other
distros have this feature, but they never seemed to work so well.
-Wine: For windows -> linux people its great: pre installed. if you dont
need it, its only a click away in Synaptic!
-I could go on, but networking, internet browsing, typing (Abiword :-) etc
all works well too, installing is a doddle, and if i take a DVD around, i
can get my entire system up & running in under 2 mins! (Upload edited files
to a git repo on Github when developing, my own site if its an update on
music.)
GMac, the "Author" of AV really done a great job in my opinion, very much
recommended!
I'm not taking the distro flamewar-bait either.
AVLinux does look very tasty. I'm happy with Lenny for now, but as it gets further and
further out of date over the next year or two, I might consider trying something
different.
-ken
6:30 p.m.
New subject: AVLinux (Was: a bunch of stuff)
On Wed, 29 Jul 2009 13:21:00 -0700
Ken Restivo <ken(a)restivo.org> wrote:
On Wed, Jul 29, 2009 at 01:18:46PM +0100, Harry Van
Haaren wrote:
I had a quick look at this but what I find disturbing is that it
trashes any partitions it uses, including /home! That's just not
aceptable.
--
Will J Godfrey
http://www.musically.me.uk
Hey,
I wont answer your question on "Why Debian?", but i will say that AV linux
is amazing!
I'm really impressed with it because:
- FFADO "just worked". ie: modprobe raw1394, chmod /dev/raw1394, start jack.
Record 12 channels at 8ms for 1/2 n hour with 1 xrun.
-XFCE: Although i downgraded to stable (4.4) despite having the testing 4.6
installed, it was not much effort, and not half as bloat as KDE/full gnome.
-RemasterSys: Click the button, answer some questions (that are newbie
freindly) and have an ISO made of your exact current system. (I know other
distros have this feature, but they never seemed to work so well.
-Wine: For windows -> linux people its great: pre installed. if you dont
need it, its only a click away in Synaptic!
-I could go on, but networking, internet browsing, typing (Abiword :-) etc
all works well too, installing is a doddle, and if i take a DVD around, i
can get my entire system up & running in under 2 mins! (Upload edited files
to a git repo on Github when developing, my own site if its an update on
music.)
GMac, the "Author" of AV really done a great job in my opinion, very much
recommended!
I'm not taking the distro flamewar-bait either.
AVLinux does look very tasty. I'm happy with Lenny for now, but as it gets further
and further out of date over the next year or two, I might consider trying something
different.
-ken 
6:51 p.m.
New subject: AVLinux (Was: a bunch of stuff)
Folderol wrote:
Thanks for the warning. Was thinking I might try it but will give it a
miss now.
andy
I'm not taking the distro flamewar-bait
either.
AVLinux does look very tasty. I'm happy with Lenny for now, but as it gets further
and further out of date over the next year or two, I might consider trying something
different.
-ken
I had a quick look at this but what I find disturbing is that it
trashes any partitions it uses, including /home! That's just not
aceptable.
8:02 p.m.
New subject: AVLinux (Was: a bunch of stuff) - ArtistX
andy baxter wrote:
Folderol wrote:
Thanks for the warning. Was thinking I might try it but will give it a
miss now.
andy
Been using ArtistX http://www.artistx.org for some time, and it's an
exceptionally complete distro for audio/video/graphics work, includes
all productivity apps as well. Large install as a consequence, 9.8GB,
but for an explorer as well as a user it's good to go right from the
install.
Frank
I'm not taking the distro flamewar-bait
either.
AVLinux does look very tasty. I'm happy with Lenny for now, but as it gets further
and further out of date over the next year or two, I might consider trying something
different.
-ken
I had a quick look at this but what I find disturbing is that it
trashes any partitions it uses, including /home! That's just not
aceptable.
30 Jul
30 Jul
6:50 a.m.
New subject: AVLinux (Was: a bunch of stuff) - ArtistX
frank pirrone wrote:
andy baxter wrote:
I have both UbuntuStudio and ArtistX on my musicbox laptop. They both
run. They both use the same kernel. ArtistX is loaded to the gills with
audio, video and graphics applications. When I use UbuntuStudio, I'm
always going, "Shoot, they don't have that program installed ... " And
Ubuntu Studio gives me problems with xruns and announcements that
there's not enough CPU available to run whatever synth I have running.
I tried adding Ubuntu's RT kernel to my first US install, and all it did
was trash the US installation.
I like ArtistX. Hefty but very complete.
--
David
gnome(a)hawaii.rr.com
authenticity, honesty, community
Folderol wrote:
Thanks for the warning. Was thinking I might try it but will give it a
miss now.
andy
Been using ArtistX http://www.artistx.org for some time, and it's an
exceptionally complete distro for audio/video/graphics work, includes
all productivity apps as well. Large install as a consequence, 9.8GB,
but for an explorer as well as a user it's good to go right from the
install. I'm not taking the distro flamewar-bait
either.
AVLinux does look very tasty. I'm happy with Lenny for now, but as it gets further
and further out of date over the next year or two, I might consider trying something
different.
-ken
I had a quick look at this but what I find disturbing is that it
trashes any partitions it uses, including /home! That's just not
aceptable.
12:25 p.m.
New subject: AVLinux (Was: a bunch of stuff)
Simply leave your 'home' directory on the root partition for installing and move
it afterwars to where you want.
I've been bitten by this the first time I installed AVLinux, but fortunately
I had recent backups of my home drive.
Cheers,
Raphael ;)
andy baxter wrote:
Folderol wrote:
Thanks for the warning. Was thinking I might try it but will give it a
miss now.
andy
--
________________________________
"A mind is like a parachute -
It doesn't work if it's not open."
|- - - - - - - Frank Zappa - - - - - - -|
I'm not taking the distro flamewar-bait
either.
AVLinux does look very tasty. I'm happy with Lenny for now, but as it gets further
and further out of date over the next year or two, I might consider trying something
different.
-ken
I had a quick look at this but what I find disturbing is that it
trashes any partitions it uses, including /home! That's just not
aceptable.
29 Jul
29 Jul
7:29 p.m.
New subject: AVLinux (Was: a bunch of stuff)
Hey,
Just to clarify: I was expressing my expericences of AvLinux, and my
intention was far
from trying to start a flame war. Perhaps I should have worded my opinion
differently as
to avoid a misunderstanding.
-Harry van Haaren
On Wed, Jul 29, 2009 at 9:21 PM, Ken Restivo <ken(a)restivo.org> wrote:
On Wed, Jul 29, 2009 at 01:18:46PM +0100, Harry Van
Haaren wrote:
Hey,
I wont answer your question on "Why Debian?", but i will say that AV
linux
is amazing!
I'm really impressed with it because:
- FFADO "just worked". ie: modprobe raw1394, chmod /dev/raw1394, start
jack.
Record 12 channels at 8ms for 1/2 n hour with 1
xrun.
-XFCE: Although i downgraded to stable (4.4) despite having the testing
4.6
installed, it was not much effort, and not half
as bloat as KDE/full
gnome.
-RemasterSys: Click the button, answer some
questions (that are newbie
freindly) and have an ISO made of your exact current system. (I know
other
distros have this feature, but they never seemed
to work so well.
-Wine: For windows -> linux people its great: pre installed. if you dont
need it, its only a click away in Synaptic!
-I could go on, but networking, internet browsing, typing (Abiword :-)
etc
all works well too, installing is a doddle, and
if i take a DVD around, i
can get my entire system up & running in under 2 mins! (Upload edited
files
to a git repo on Github when developing, my own
site if its an update on
music.)
GMac, the "Author" of AV really done a great job in my opinion, very much
recommended!
I'm not taking the distro flamewar-bait either.
AVLinux does look very tasty. I'm happy with Lenny for now, but as it gets
further and further out of date over the next year or two, I might consider
trying something different.
-ken
30 Jul
30 Jul
12:30 p.m.
New subject: AVLinux (Was: a bunch of stuff)
Simple answer, no.
It doesn't trash 'ALL' partitions. It formats root (like any other distro)
and ~/home.
To circumvent this, leave ~/home on the root partition during install and move
it afterwards to where you want.
It's really a great, smooth and fast running distro for audio work. Even though
you have to install a bunch of music apps to your liking afterwards. But I
prefer this approach to any other of the bloated 'trying to give you anything
that exists out there' kind of offerings.
Cheers,
Raphael ;)
Viktor Mastoridis wrote:
it trashes any partitions it uses, including
/home!
A simple question here: if I run AVLinux from the Live DVD, will it
erase the home folder?
--
________________________________
"A mind is like a parachute -
It doesn't work if it's not open."
|- - - - - - - Frank Zappa - - - - - - -|
12:42 p.m.
New subject: Ubuntu weirdness, aka business as usual with Ubuntu
Greetings,
I have a nicely functioning installation of Ubuntu 9.04. I installed the
UStudio packages and further customized the system with a working rt
kernel. Alas, when I reboot it after a installing updates from the
Update Manager my limits.conf is changed. For some reason the rtprio
line is removed while the memlock and nice values remain.
Does anyone know why this happens and what I can do to prevent it ?
I do know about the Ubuntu forums, but I'm hoping a LAU member knows the
answer.
Best,
dp
29 Jul
29 Jul
9:48 p.m.
New subject: AVLinux (Was: a bunch of stuff)
On Wed, Jul 29, 2009 at 10:29:58PM +0100, Harry Van Haaren wrote:
Hey,
Just to clarify: I was expressing my expericences of AvLinux, and my
intention was far
from trying to start a flame war. Perhaps I should have worded my opinion
differently as
to avoid a misunderstanding.
No, you're great, I was referring to the more provacative "why debian?"
question of the O.P., which you wisely side-stepped.
-Harry van Haaren
On Wed, Jul 29, 2009 at 9:21 PM, Ken Restivo <ken(a)restivo.org> wrote:
> On Wed, Jul 29, 2009 at 01:18:46PM +0100, Harry Van Haaren wrote:
> > Hey,
> >
> > I wont answer your question on "Why Debian?", but i will say that AV
> linux
> > is amazing!
> > I'm really impressed with it because:
> > - FFADO "just worked". ie: modprobe raw1394, chmod /dev/raw1394,
start
> jack.
> > Record 12 channels at 8ms for 1/2 n hour with 1 xrun.
> > -XFCE: Although i downgraded to stable (4.4) despite having the testing
> 4.6
> > installed, it was not much effort, and not half as bloat as KDE/full
> gnome.
> > -RemasterSys: Click the button, answer some questions (that are newbie
> > freindly) and have an ISO made of your exact current system. (I know
> other
> > distros have this feature, but they never seemed to work so well.
> > -Wine: For windows -> linux people its great: pre installed. if you dont
> > need it, its only a click away in Synaptic!
> > -I could go on, but networking, internet browsing, typing (Abiword :-)
> etc
> > all works well too, installing is a doddle, and if i take a DVD around, i
> > can get my entire system up & running in under 2 mins! (Upload edited
> files
> > to a git repo on Github when developing, my own site if its an update on
> > music.)
> >
> > GMac, the "Author" of AV really done a great job in my opinion, very
much
> > recommended!
>
> I'm not taking the distro flamewar-bait either.
>
> AVLinux does look very tasty. I'm happy with Lenny for now, but as it gets
> further and further out of date over the next year or two, I might consider
> trying something different.
>
> -ken
>
30 Jul
30 Jul
11:58 a.m.
New subject: AVLinux (Was: a bunch of stuff)
Ken Restivo wrote:
AVLinux does look very tasty. I'm happy with Lenny
for now, but as it
gets further and further out of date over the next year or two, I
might consider trying something different.
Did you read this:
http://www.debian.org/News/2009/20090729
Apparently debian has now settled on a two year release cycle. Sounds
bad if you're used to ubuntu's 6 months, but in debian land this is
really something.
--
Atte
http://atte.dk http://modlys.dk http://virb.com/atte
12:10 p.m.
New subject: AVLinux (Was: a bunch of stuff)
On Thu, Jul 30, 2009 at 6:58 AM, Atte Andre Jensen<atte.jensen(a)gmail.com> wrote:
Ken Restivo wrote:
It's hard for me to imagine how they come up with a number that's
higher than the average lifetime of a PC these days... ;-)
Still running the same Gentoo 64-bit install I did in 2004. emerge
-DuN @world once a week and it's always up to date...
- Mark
AVLinux does look very tasty. I'm happy with
Lenny for now, but as it
gets further and further out of date over the next year or two, I
might consider trying something different.
Did you read this:
http://www.debian.org/News/2009/20090729
Apparently debian has now settled on a two year release cycle. Sounds
bad if you're used to ubuntu's 6 months, but in debian land this is
really something.
--
Atte
5:48 p.m.
New subject: AVLinux (Was: a bunch of stuff)
On Thu, Jul 30, 2009 at 07:10:28AM -0700, Mark Knecht wrote:
On Thu, Jul 30, 2009 at 6:58 AM, Atte Andre
Jensen<atte.jensen(a)gmail.com> wrote:
I have a Debian system out on the internuts (a SPARC32 machine), that hasn't been
touched since I installed it sometime in 2001, other than for regular updates.
Finally going to decommission it soon.
-ken
Ken Restivo wrote:
It's hard for me to imagine how they come up with a number that's
higher than the average lifetime of a PC these days... ;-)
Still running the same Gentoo 64-bit install I did in 2004. emerge
-DuN @world once a week and it's always up to date...
AVLinux does look very tasty. I'm happy with
Lenny for now, but as it
gets further and further out of date over the next year or two, I
might consider trying something different.
Did you read this:
http://www.debian.org/News/2009/20090729
Apparently debian has now settled on a two year release cycle. Sounds
bad if you're used to ubuntu's 6 months, but in debian land this is
really something.
--
Atte
6:22 p.m.
New subject: AVLinux (Was: a bunch of stuff)
On Thu, Jul 30, 2009 at 12:47 PM, Ken Restivo<ken(a)restivo.org> wrote:
On Thu, Jul 30, 2009 at 07:10:28AM -0700, Mark Knecht
wrote:
Not even a new kernel?
Anyway, I didn't mean it doesn't happen, because it does. You are an
example. However I doubt that sort of usage model accounts for even 1%
of the machines in use, but maybe I'm wrong?
- Mark
On Thu, Jul 30, 2009 at 6:58 AM, Atte Andre
Jensen<atte.jensen(a)gmail.com> wrote:
I have a Debian system out on the internuts (a SPARC32 machine), that hasn't been
touched since I installed it sometime in 2001, other than for regular updates.
Finally going to decommission it soon.
-ken
Ken Restivo wrote:
It's hard for me to imagine how they come up with a number that's
higher than the average lifetime of a PC these days... ;-)
Still running the same Gentoo 64-bit install I did in 2004. emerge
-DuN @world once a week and it's always up to date...
AVLinux does look very tasty. I'm happy with
Lenny for now, but as it
gets further and further out of date over the next year or two, I
might consider trying something different.
Did you read this:
http://www.debian.org/News/2009/20090729
Apparently debian has now settled on a two year release cycle. Sounds
bad if you're used to ubuntu's 6 months, but in debian land this is
really something.
--
Atte
7:04 p.m.
New subject: AVLinux (Was: a bunch of stuff)
On Thu, Jul 30, 2009 at 01:22:24PM -0700, Mark Knecht wrote:
On Thu, Jul 30, 2009 at 12:47 PM, Ken
Restivo<ken(a)restivo.org> wrote:
It's pretty common among servers and sysadmins to leave machines in place for a long
time and not want to touch them, but I think the more on-topic point might be that it
accounts for pretty near 0% of *music* systems. Linux audio stuff moves fast, and works
better with rolling releases, so the model used by AVLinux and the other audio-specific
distros is more appropriate for what we're trying to do with them.
-ken
On Thu, Jul 30, 2009 at 07:10:28AM -0700, Mark
Knecht wrote:
Not even a new kernel?
Anyway, I didn't mean it doesn't happen, because it does. You are an
example. However I doubt that sort of usage model accounts for even 1%
of the machines in use, but maybe I'm wrong?
On Thu, Jul 30, 2009 at 6:58 AM, Atte Andre
Jensen<atte.jensen(a)gmail.com> wrote:
I have a Debian system out on the internuts (a SPARC32 machine), that hasn't been
touched since I installed it sometime in 2001, other than for regular updates.
Finally going to decommission it soon.
-ken
Ken Restivo wrote:
> AVLinux does look very tasty. I'm happy with Lenny for now, but as it
> gets further and further out of date over the next year or two, I
> might consider trying something different.
Did you read this:
http://www.debian.org/News/2009/20090729
Apparently debian has now settled on a two year release cycle. Sounds
bad if you're used to ubuntu's 6 months, but in debian land this is
really something.
--
Atte
It's hard for me to imagine how they come up with a number that's
higher than the average lifetime of a PC these days... ;-)
Still running the same Gentoo 64-bit install I did in 2004. emerge
-DuN @world once a week and it's always up to date...
31 Jul
31 Jul
3:45 a.m.
New subject: AVLinux (Was: a bunch of stuff)
It's pretty common among servers and sysadmins to
leave machines in
place for a long time and not want to touch them, but I think the
more on-topic point might be that it accounts for pretty near 0% of
*music* systems. Linux audio stuff moves fast, and works better with
rolling releases, so the model used by AVLinux and the other
audio-specific distros is more appropriate for what we're trying to
do with them.
-ken
Yes, that is true, servers and desktops have very different needs.
The Debian Stable releases, such as Lenny, are surely meant for servers
and such, with much too heavy an emphasis on security and stability for
our purposes - hence their very long, very careful, release cycle.
If you install Debian as a music system, then Sid - which is the
rolling, Unstable, up-to-date version - plus suitable multimedia
repositories - is probably the best flavour to use.
That has been my choice, but there are many other valid and useful
choices out there - that is the beauty of Free software.
Simon
1:54 p.m.
New subject: AVLinux (Was: a bunch of stuff)
2009/7/30 Ken Restivo <ken(a)restivo.org>
Linux audio stuff moves fast, and works better with
rolling releases,
This was also the point made in a recent thread ('Audio distribution
proposal') ; I bought the idea enough to give ArchLinux +
archaudio.repo a try. And this worked pleasantly well : in a few
hours' time, I could set up a fast and lean system, with good
performance for the main audio apps.
Still, a few updates later, I got to think again about this 'rollling'
model : does the constant upgrading not mean that you are constantly
introducing instability into your system ?
For instance : last month, an update broke 'bash-completion' ; this
week, I found out that 'patchage' was no longer working (is it due to
this recent 'boost' lib update ? ) ... These are small things, but
which prove distracting when you just would have liked to sit down and
make some music ...
On the other hand, rolling updates imply that changes happen
gradually, which allows you to determine what particular package
update caused the problem, and fix accordingly. Well, if you have a
good idea of package dependencies, and if you indeed upgrade
gradually.
So, this brings an other question : what is a good frequency for
updates ? I remember that on Gentoo, it was better to sync the system
frequently, as a two-month-late update could result in hard-to-solve
conflicts. This seems less of a problem in Arch Linux ? (no flamebait
intended)
I am mostly thinking aloud here, but would welcome your experience on
the matter, as I am having a hard time figuring out what a good
process would consist in ; probably, it would involve a rolling system
+ carefully controlled updates, and the ability to rollback updates ?
About this last bit, the Remasterys backup utility included in AVLinux
is a wonderful addition. It only works for Debian/Ubuntu systems
though, ... and I do not know how easily every package manager
provides the ability to downgrade ...
Here are a few relevant links concerning Arch :
http://bbs.archlinux.org/viewtopic.php?id=71987
http://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/Downgrade_packages
Thanks for attention.
2:46 p.m.
New subject: AVLinux (Was: a bunch of stuff)
On Fri, Jul 31, 2009 at 8:54 AM, Jean-Baptiste
Mestelan<mestelan(a)gmail.com> wrote:
2009/7/30 Ken Restivo <ken(a)restivo.org>
In my opinion it depends on the number of folks running the distro and
the process the distro maintainers use to release new packages. If
maintainers rubber stamp anything that appears on their source code
doorstep as stable then I suspect end-users see problems. On the other
hand, if the distro has a large enough install base, and then within
that install base enough people running the new/testing packages, then
after some period of time without leading edge users reporting
problems the testing code moves to stable and folks running stable
don't see too many problems.
I suspect that Arch is similar to Gentoo in the sense that you choose
what sort of system to run, and then if you run stable you can
probably pick individual testing packages? On my Gentoo machines I run
the system as close to pure stable as I can and then only unmask the
few Linux Audio apps I want to run leading edge on. It reduces the
amount of time I spend building system software and keeps me focused
on audio testing versions..
- Mark
Linux audio stuff moves fast, and works better
with rolling releases,
This was also the point made in a recent thread ('Audio distribution
proposal') ; I bought the idea enough to give ArchLinux +
archaudio.repo a try. And this worked pleasantly well : in a few
hours' time, I could set up a fast and lean system, with good
performance for the main audio apps.
Still, a few updates later, I got to think again about this 'rollling'
model : does the constant upgrading not mean that you are constantly
introducing instability into your system ? 
3:05 p.m.
New subject: AVLinux (Was: a bunch of stuff)
On Fri, 31 Jul 2009 17:54:33 +0200
Jean-Baptiste Mestelan <mestelan(a)gmail.com> wrote:
2009/7/30 Ken Restivo <ken(a)restivo.org>
Well, you don't need to upgrade or can upgrade selectively (not always
of course) until you have some time to fix stuff if it happens to break
something.
Patchage still works for me but it doesn't compile anymore. That's the
most common problem I face, gcc or some important lib or buildtool gets
updated and apps that were written with much older versions won't
compile anymore until someone writes a patch or upstream does something
about it. I tend to notify the maintainer or upstream if I happen to be
the maintainer.
Linux audio stuff moves fast, and works better
with rolling releases,
This was also the point made in a recent thread ('Audio distribution
proposal') ; I bought the idea enough to give ArchLinux +
archaudio.repo a try. And this worked pleasantly well : in a few
hours' time, I could set up a fast and lean system, with good
performance for the main audio apps.
Still, a few updates later, I got to think again about this 'rollling'
model : does the constant upgrading not mean that you are constantly
introducing instability into your system ?
For instance : last month, an update broke 'bash-completion' ; this
week, I found out that 'patchage' was no longer working (is it due to
this recent 'boost' lib update ? ) ... These are small things, but
which prove distracting when you just would have liked to sit down and
make some music ... On the other hand, rolling updates imply that changes
happen
gradually, which allows you to determine what particular package
update caused the problem, and fix accordingly. Well, if you have a
good idea of package dependencies, and if you indeed upgrade
gradually.
So, this brings an other question : what is a good frequency for
updates ? I remember that on Gentoo, it was better to sync the system
frequently, as a two-month-late update could result in hard-to-solve
conflicts. This seems less of a problem in Arch Linux ? (no flamebait
intended)
Personally I upgrade very frequently and few stuff broke so far. I
haven't tried a long update cycle yet but I bet a number of people do
that as well, I'd ask on IRC, forums or mailinglists about their
experience. Afaik many have used gentoo before.
I am mostly thinking aloud here, but would welcome
your experience on
the matter, as I am having a hard time figuring out what a good
process would consist in ; probably, it would involve a rolling system
+ carefully controlled updates, and the ability to rollback updates ?
About this last bit, the Remasterys backup utility included in AVLinux
is a wonderful addition. It only works for Debian/Ubuntu systems
though, ... and I do not know how easily every package manager
provides the ability to downgrade ...
Here are a few relevant links concerning Arch :
http://bbs.archlinux.org/viewtopic.php?id=71987
http://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/Downgrade_packages
I don't know if/how a rollback/downgrade is possible on Arch Linux but
at least for packages that I built myself I keep the packages of one or
two versions back, case the new package doesn't work as expected.
Regards,
Philipp
1 Aug
1 Aug
8:22 a.m.
New subject: AVLinux (Was: a bunch of stuff)
2009/7/31 <hollunder(a)gmx.at>at>:
Well, you don't need to upgrade or can upgrade
selectively (not always
of course) until you have some time to fix stuff if it happens to break
something.
Yes, this is a sensible hint :-) and which conforms to the old 'Don't
fix it if it ain't broken' saying.
Thanks Phillip and Mark for the input.
1:36 p.m.
New subject: AVLinux (Was: a bunch of stuff)
On Friday 31 July 2009 11:54:33 Jean-Baptiste Mestelan wrote:
So, this brings an other question : what is a good
frequency for
updates ? I remember that on Gentoo, it was better to sync the system
frequently, as a two-month-late update could result in hard-to-solve
conflicts. This seems less of a problem in Arch Linux ? (no flamebait
intended)
For me it depends on project deadlines... if I am working on a performance, I
try not to do updates of my system, until after the whole rehearsal,
preparation and performance of the project, so that the system behaves as I
expect it to behave.
Then in downtime I can sit down and do an update, and fix any problems that
may occur.
sincerely,
Marije
2 Aug
2 Aug
2:08 a.m.
New subject: AVLinux (Was: a bunch of stuff)
On Fri, Jul 31, 2009 at 05:54:33PM +0200, Jean-Baptiste Mestelan wrote:
2009/7/30 Ken Restivo <ken(a)restivo.org>
Linux audio stuff moves fast, and works better
with rolling releases,
This was also the point made in a recent thread ('Audio distribution
proposal') ; I bought the idea enough to give ArchLinux +
archaudio.repo a try. And this worked pleasantly well : in a few
hours' time, I could set up a fast and lean system, with good
performance for the main audio apps.
Still, a few updates later, I got to think again about this 'rollling'
model : does the constant upgrading not mean that you are constantly
introducing instability into your system ?
For instance : last month, an update broke 'bash-completion' ; this
week, I found out that 'patchage' was no longer working (is it due to
this recent 'boost' lib update ? ) ... These are small things, but
which prove distracting when you just would have liked to sit down and
make some music ...
On the other hand, rolling updates imply that changes happen
gradually, which allows you to determine what particular package
update caused the problem, and fix accordingly. Well, if you have a
good idea of package dependencies, and if you indeed upgrade
gradually.
So, this brings an other question : what is a good frequency for
updates ? I remember that on Gentoo, it was better to sync the system
frequently, as a two-month-late update could result in hard-to-solve
conflicts. This seems less of a problem in Arch Linux ? (no flamebait
intended)
I am mostly thinking aloud here, but would welcome your experience on
the matter, as I am having a hard time figuring out what a good
process would consist in ; probably, it would involve a rolling system
+ carefully controlled updates, and the ability to rollback updates ?
About this last bit, the Remasterys backup utility included in AVLinux
is a wonderful addition. It only works for Debian/Ubuntu systems though, ... and I do not know how easily every package
manager
provides the ability to downgrade ...
Here are a few relevant links concerning Arch :
http://bbs.archlinux.org/viewtopic.php?id=71987
http://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/Downgrade_packages
Well the assumption is that the distro maintainer won't introduce instability :-)
Which, in the case of audio-specific distros, would-- I hope-- be a safe assumption.
Audio distro maintainers aren't likely to treat their "stable" repo like a
developer playground. From what I've seen, they seem to do a good job keeping up with
the latest advances in Linux Audio.
As an astute poster noted a short while ago, one can also pick a different repository
while staying within a particular distro, and get a totally different release model.
For example, for *two years* I ran Debian Sid on my laptop. But it was a snapshot from May
2007 (with I think one update sometime afterwards). So it was quite stable, even though
Sid is always under heavy construction. I solved the instability problem by never typing
"apt-get upgrade" :-) I did have to type "apt-get update" several
times in order to add software, after getting 404's on the version in the Packages.gz
list. But when I started seeing enormous lists of fundamental things that needed updating
(i.e. gcc, glibc, X... the kind of stuff that happened after the Lenny release), I simply
stopped installing new software on it. It sat that way getting heavy use for a long time.
Finally I updated it, and it's now on Lenny. I have done this exact dance with
desktops for almost 10 years now, though I was more willing to apt-get update/upgrade
them.
And of course nowadays there are many other options, like Sidux, all the audio distros,
and many special-purpose distros, many of which are Debian-based anyway.
-ken
10:38 a.m.
New subject: AVLinux (Was: a bunch of stuff)
Ken Restivo wrote:
For example, for *two years* I ran Debian Sid on my
laptop. But it
was a snapshot from May 2007 (with I think one update sometime
afterwards). So it was quite stable, even though Sid is always under
heavy construction. I solved the instability problem by never typing
"apt-get upgrade" :-)
Of course by doing this you 1) never get security upgrades, and 2)
eventually can't install software anymore, since the current versions
starts needing newer libs.
I also did something similar (ran debian stable, doing my upgrades,
though) for years, but switched back to a rolling upgrade (but not
before gigs) model. ATM I'd rather handle problems once in a while, one
at the time, and be able to work with new versions of the software I run.
--
Atte
http://atte.dk http://modlys.dk http://virb.com/atte
8:58 p.m.
New subject: AVLinux (Was: a bunch of stuff)
----- Original Message ----
From: Atte Andre Jensen <atte.jensen(a)gmail.com>
To: Ken Restivo <ken(a)restivo.org>
Ken Restivo wrote:
Another way is to run two or three partitions on your box and a separate data
partition/drive.
Keep two sid partitions, run dist-upgrade on them alternately.
If you get a conflict, freeze or some other weirdness on one, don't upgrade the other
until the coast is clear, ie. the first partition upgrades cleanly again.
Install bug-buddy so you will be given a list of bugs and the choice to abort before
continuing any upgrade.
And I don't think you get any security updates for sid, you would have to keep a third
stable partition for that.
And don't forget - Sid is named after the boy who destroys toys ;)
HTH
Norv
____________________________________________________________________________________
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For example, for *two years* I ran Debian Sid on
my laptop. But it
was a snapshot from May 2007 (with I think one update sometime
afterwards). So it was quite stable, even though Sid is always under
heavy construction. I solved the instability problem by never typing
"apt-get upgrade" :-)
Of course by doing this you 1) never get security upgrades, and 2)
eventually can't install software anymore, since the current versions
starts needing newer libs.
I also did something similar (ran debian stable, doing my upgrades,
though) for years, but switched back to a rolling upgrade (but not
before gigs) model. ATM I'd rather handle problems once in a while, one
at the time, and be able to work with new versions of the software I run.
--
Atte
http://atte.dk http://modlys.dk http://virb.com/atte
30 Jul
30 Jul
6:34 p.m.
New subject: AVLinux (Was: a bunch of stuff)
On Thu, 30 Jul 2009 12:47:18 -0700
Ken Restivo <ken(a)restivo.org> wrote:
On Thu, Jul 30, 2009 at 07:10:28AM -0700, Mark Knecht
wrote:
I hope you will give it a proper respectful ceremony
... sacrificing 3 windows users should do :)
--
Will J Godfrey
http://www.musically.me.uk
On Thu, Jul 30, 2009 at 6:58 AM, Atte Andre
Jensen<atte.jensen(a)gmail.com> wrote:
I have a Debian system out on the internuts (a SPARC32 machine), that hasn't been
touched since I installed it sometime in 2001, other than for regular updates.
Finally going to decommission it soon. Ken Restivo wrote:
It's hard for me to imagine how they come up with a number that's
higher than the average lifetime of a PC these days... ;-)
Still running the same Gentoo 64-bit install I did in 2004. emerge
-DuN @world once a week and it's always up to date...
AVLinux does look very tasty. I'm happy with
Lenny for now, but as it
gets further and further out of date over the next year or two, I
might consider trying something different.
Did you read this:
http://www.debian.org/News/2009/20090729
Apparently debian has now settled on a two year release cycle. Sounds
bad if you're used to ubuntu's 6 months, but in debian land this is
really something.
--
Atte
5:43 a.m.
New subject: Why Debian necessarily?... WAS... Re: The Many Ways of Pam Limits...
sonofzev(a)iinet.net.au wrote:
This is the big If?.. Why specifically a Debian based distro?
Are you looking for the best performing music workstation, a politically correct
distro, a server or a general purpose desktop?
If the answer is music workstation, why does the choice need to be limited to
Debian?
Many would argue (including myself).. that a ground up type of distro, like
Gentoo, Paludis or Arch are the best way to start. Although Debian if carefully
installed will fit into this category.
I have also found this personally in experience too. I've tried the pre-built
distros for music Studio64, Apodio and UbuntuStudio and GP desktops Mandriva and
Ubuntu and found they were
a) bloated
b) did not contain everything I needed or had old versions of what I needed
c) trying to add things not in the repos was more than trivial
d) did not perform as fast as as a ground up distro...
e) a nightmare come upgrade if any customisations have been made..
I agree completely with what you say here, and was trying to make the
same point - that a more general system like Gentoo or Debian [I
carefully mentioned both as examples, a couple of lines down the email
you quote!] was probably the best place to look, unless you are lucky
enough to have a preconfigured distribution that happens to meet your
needs well.
My choice happens to be Debian, probably just because I found it before
Gentoo - which would certainly do the job as well!
I'm sure you could suggest the easiest ways to get started with Gentoo.
I was suggesting that if you want to install a basic, up-to-date, plain
Debian system then maybe try Sidux for the installer. In the past
installing Debian Unstable and keeping it up to date has been a
challenge, but Sidux has helped a lot. It isn't a separate distribution,
it is almost pure Debian and has made Sid [= Debian Unstable] much
easier to install and maintain. For minimum bloat stick with the xfce
version, but a KDE installer is also there if you prefer. The
website/manual has become a great resource as well.
Simon
Agreed.
If you want a Debian-based system, Ubuntu is much more focused on
requirements for a general-purpose desktop. Not specifically for
musicians of course, but easier to adapt for that purpose.
maybe it is more of a
trade-off -
5595
days inactive
5599
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linux-audio-user@lists.linuxaudio.org
28 comments
17 participants
participants (17)
-
andy baxter -
Atte Andre Jensen -
Dave Phillips -
david -
Folderol -
frank pirrone -
Harry Van Haaren -
hollunder＠gmx.at -
Jean-Baptiste Mestelan -
Ken Restivo -
Mark Knecht -
nescivi -
Norval Watson -
R.Wolff -
Simon Wise -
sonofzev＠iinet.net.au -
Viktor Mastoridis