31 Mar
2019
31 Mar
'19
9:05 p.m.
Hi list. Just continuing a thread I probably should have
started here instead of on Jack lists.
I was trying to say I was disappointed that apparently
a user had trouble with some hardware volumes.
So I lamented the lack of hardware controls in general
mixers these days. They used to show all ALSA controls.
I found a tip for KMix to show ALSA *not* Pulse controls:
"export KMIX_PULSEAUDIO_DISABLE=1 && kmix"
But unfortunately it's either Pulse or ALSA, not both at the
same time in KMix. To me that's a bad thing.
So I want to give a big shout out for QasMixer
https://sourceforge.net/projects/qastools/
and ask what general mixers you might use and what
you think of QasMixer and QasHctl. They're pretty cool.
They show all my ice1712 controls.
I think a desktop mixer icon should eventually bring you
to something like that instead of only Pulse.
What do you think?
Tim.
1 Apr
1 Apr
1:02 a.m.
On Sun, 31 Mar 2019, Tim wrote:
I found a tip for KMix to show ALSA *not* Pulse
controls:
"export KMIX_PULSEAUDIO_DISABLE=1 && kmix"
But unfortunately it's either Pulse or ALSA, not both at the
same time in KMix. To me that's a bad thing.
Pulse and alsa are effectively two different audio "devices".
Pulse does weird things with the alsa controls for most alsa mixers,
Thankfully, the ice1712 is one of the ones it does not touch :)
However, if you watch the alsa controls for input levels on an HDA card (I
know, the input on these is not worth using for anything beyond phone
work) The boost and level controls bounce all over the place such that a
lower level may have more boost (and more noise) than a higher level. It
also means that after setting the alsa level exactly how you want it,
pulse comes along and messes it up.
So I want to give a big shout out for QasMixer
https://sourceforge.net/projects/qastools/
and ask what general mixers you might use and what
you think of QasMixer and QasHctl. They're pretty cool.
They show all my ice1712 controls.
I like qasmixer except it does not allow one to edit the layout. On my
ice1712 it does show all the controls including duplicate ADC and DAC
controls. I would like to be able to not show duplicates (or is this just
a Delta 44/66 problem).
In the end, I tell pulse not to look at any alsa devices and to use jack
as it's only device. In this case it only does sw levels (-inf to +11db).
I think a desktop mixer icon should eventually bring
you
to something like that instead of only Pulse.
What do you think?
<rant>
One word "convergence"... All computers must be the same to operate as a
phone. After all nobody does real work on a computer, they just browse and
use one or two other apps at most. Most phone users just want one level
control... The reality is that PCs are not made for audio creation, they
are entertainment boxes. "Low latency" is 30ms by design, if you got less
it is because they made a mistake and "should" have used cheaper parts. If
they make an audio computer with super low latency (10-15ms) it will be at
musician prices (think brand new Gibson Les Paul).
</rant>
Anyway, yes I agree. On the other hand, when I use a browser to watch YT
stuff, the Pulse single level control is just perfect and because of the
way I use my Delta66, my alsa level controls are pretty much set and forget
anyway. They are line level and so I have a cr1604 in front of it for
mic/line preamps and speaker level controls. I do not use the internal
monitor mixer because I have the external one that has faders and eq and
sends and all that so I don't need to. Mixers are cheap, even digital ones
with 32 ADC/DAC built in that can also act as DAW controlers. (stay away
from new A&H SQ series which 96K only and is not stable when used with
Linux and maybe other OS as a digital interface)
--
Len Ovens
www.ovenwerks.net
8:07 a.m.
On 3/31/19 5:02 PM, Len Ovens wrote:
Hm, didn't notice any duplicates here. Yeah sure looks like a lot of
controls in qasmixer and qashctl but amazingly I don't think I
caught anything duplicated. I'll keep an eye out.
I've had my eye on the Fender Custom Shop for while now.
The Gary Moore red Stratocaster (from his strat days) would be so nice.
Aren't there still places that build Linux audio computers?
On Sun, 31 Mar 2019, Tim wrote:
I don't know a lot about Pulse, but I thought I read the other day
that Pulse talks to ALSA via an ALSA driver. Is that correct?
Or Pulse bypasses ALSA somewhat or totally (as I first thought)?
I found a tip for KMix to show ALSA *not* Pulse
controls:
"export KMIX_PULSEAUDIO_DISABLE=1 && kmix"
But unfortunately it's either Pulse or ALSA, not both at the
same time in KMix. To me that's a bad thing.
Pulse and alsa are effectively two different audio "devices". Pulse does weird things with the alsa controls for
most alsa mixers,
Thankfully, the ice1712 is one of the ones it does not touch :)
I remember trying Pulse while helping with mudita24 mixer.
Maybe I was mistaken but I remarked that at one point Pulse seemed
to take control of the hardware - even my ice1712 - I was puzzled
how the hardware registers were being changed. I thought it was kind
of 'smart', low level. But maybe it was just an ALSA driver working.
However, if you watch the alsa controls for input
levels on an HDA card
(I know, the input on these is not worth using for anything beyond phone
work) The boost and level controls bounce all over the place such that a
lower level may have more boost (and more noise) than a higher level. It
also means that after setting the alsa level exactly how you want it,
pulse comes along and messes it up.
Hm yeah weird. Maybe just Pulse talking to ALSA talking
to the registers. I'd have thought it would be the other way around,
that Pulse might first read what's in ALSA and start from there.
But who knows, maybe ALSA defaults or user settings aren't
necessarily correct for how Pulse needs to work. After all,
I guess Pulse sits on top of ALSA somewhat, so ALSA is just
obeying its master. Again not a Pulse expert here.
So I want to
give a big shout out for QasMixer
https://sourceforge.net/projects/qastools/
and ask what general mixers you might use and what
you think of QasMixer and QasHctl. They're pretty cool.
They show all my ice1712 controls.
I like qasmixer except it does not allow one to edit the layout. On my
ice1712 it does show all the controls including duplicate ADC and DAC
controls. I would like to be able to not show duplicates (or is this
just a Delta 44/66 problem). In the end, I tell pulse not to look at any alsa
devices and to use jack
as it's only device. In this case it only does sw levels (-inf to +11db).
I see. Yes I know that I can select a Jack device from pav.
I think a
desktop mixer icon should eventually bring you
to something like that instead of only Pulse.
What do you think?
<rant>
One word "convergence"... All computers must be the same to operate as a
phone. After all nobody does real work on a computer, they just browse
and use one or two other apps at most. Most phone users just want one
level control... The reality is that PCs are not made for audio
creation, they are entertainment boxes. "Low latency" is 30ms by design,
if you got less it is because they made a mistake and "should" have used
cheaper parts. If they make an audio computer with super low latency
(10-15ms) it will be at musician prices (think brand new Gibson Les Paul). </rant>
Anyway, yes I agree. On the other hand, when I use a
browser to watch YT
stuff, the Pulse single level control is just perfect and because of the
way I use my Delta66, my alsa level controls are pretty much set and
forget anyway.
Yes I have to admit I mostly set and forget my delta1010 - but that's
'cause I already know about envy24 and mudita24.
I guess I was concerned about people not getting the full picture
from their mixers and being disappointed.
They are line level and so I have a cr1604 in front of
it
for mic/line preamps and speaker level controls. I do not use the
internal monitor mixer because I have the external one that has faders
and eq and sends and all that so I don't need to. Mixers are cheap, even
digital ones with 32 ADC/DAC built in that can also act as DAW
controlers.
I have an analog mixer but it sits in a box. Just a desktop
composer here, so the card does everything I need.
Except yeah, I really should put an analog compressor/limiter in
front of it, the one thing a digital card can't watch out for.
But I'm so used to playing/recording without a compressor/limiter.
I just watch my peaks, that's all.
Speaking of which...
I mentioned on Jack ml that QasMixer didn't seem to have any meters.
I seemed to recall that envy24/mudita24 meters were ALSA components
and wondered whether this could be added to Qas.
But another user remarked something about his Focusrite Scarlett where
ALSA don't do the meters in a good way (splitting them into channels?).
Another user pointed out that ALSA may not be the answer for all
cards and may even get some things incorrect whereas a dedicated
mixer might not. And said "usually class compliant USB devices don't
have alsamixer volume controls".
(stay away from new A&H SQ series which 96K only
and is not
stable when used with Linux and maybe other OS as a digital interface)
OK! I... guess?
Cheers.
Tim.
--
Len Ovens
www.ovenwerks.net
10:58 a.m.
On Mon, 1 Apr 2019, Tim wrote:
Yikes. Maybe someone put the time into a pulse profile for the ice1712. I
have had pulse's alsa module unloaded for years now.
the boost for HDA is 0, 10, 20, 30 and the way the steps are on the level
control means that more range is available with tighter steps by switching
boost levels as well as input level. Just looking at mine here, boost is 0
to 40 in 10 db steps, capture level is 0 to 22.5 in steps of 1.5 for a
total of 0 to 62.5. Normally this would mean in 1.5 db steps... and,
normally this would go from 9 to 10.5. However, level 0 with boost 10
fills in a step in between. Again with 10.5 to 12. boost 10 with level 1.5
adds 11.5. Once you get to the point where three boost levels are
available we can 19.5, 20, 20.5, 21. That is .5 db steps with boost going
0, 10, 20, 0. Sounds cool, but the boost levels (at least on my machine)
all have distinct noise floors such that the noise level and frequency
audiably changes with each of those steps. I found that with boost at 30db
there was actually less noise (or at least a less noticable noise) than
with boost at 20db. So I would try to set my levels using a boost with
least noise. Now use something like skype or a recording program and
change the input level... chances are it chooses the boost level with the
most noise.
Just ADC/DAC controls, each one shows up as both an input and an output
(enable both input and output). moving either the input or the output
moves the other control as well (with gui delay of course). I am sure that
this is the way that the ice1712 driver (or device?) shows it's controls
to alsa. So I would like to remove ADC "output" controls and DAC
"input"
controls.
Notice that the latency I gave for the "audio computer" was still not as
good as a tweaked machine with an ice1712 can get, .7ms with 48k here if I
turn off cron (well 1.7ms including the 1ms going through the ice1712
itself, jack set to 16/2). My rants tend towards sarcasm. However, I have
seen the 30ms audio latency refered to as low latency in Intel
documentation in the past.
On 3/31/19 5:02 PM, Len Ovens wrote:
Pulse rides on top of alsa, but also shows itself as the default alsa
device (pseudo device amybe?).
On Sun, 31 Mar 2019, Tim wrote:
I don't know a lot about Pulse, but I thought I read the other day
that Pulse talks to ALSA via an ALSA driver. Is that correct?
Or Pulse bypasses ALSA somewhat or totally (as I first thought)? I found a tip for KMix to show ALSA *not* Pulse
controls:
"export KMIX_PULSEAUDIO_DISABLE=1 && kmix"
But unfortunately it's either Pulse or ALSA, not both at the
same time in KMix. To me that's a bad thing.
Pulse and alsa are effectively two different audio "devices". Pulse does
weird things with the alsa controls for most alsa mixers,
Thankfully, the ice1712 is one of the ones it does not touch :)
I remember trying Pulse while helping with mudita24 mixer.
Maybe I was mistaken but I remarked that at one point Pulse seemed
to take control of the hardware - even my ice1712 - I was puzzled
how the hardware registers were being changed. I thought it was kind
of 'smart', low level. But maybe it was just an ALSA driver working. However, if
you watch the alsa controls for input levels on an HDA card
(I know, the input on these is not worth using for anything beyond phone
work) The boost and level controls bounce all over the place such that a
lower level may have more boost (and more noise) than a higher level. It
also means that after setting the alsa level exactly how you want it,
pulse comes along and messes it up.
Hm yeah weird. Maybe just Pulse talking to ALSA talking
to the registers. I'd have thought it would be the other way around,
that Pulse might first read what's in ALSA and start from there. I like
qasmixer except it does not allow one to edit the layout. On my
ice1712 it does show all the controls including duplicate ADC and DAC
controls. I would like to be able to not show duplicates (or is this
just a Delta 44/66 problem).
Hm, didn't notice any duplicates here. Yeah sure looks like a lot of
controls in qasmixer and qashctl but amazingly I don't think I
caught anything duplicated. I'll keep an eye out. > <rant>
...
creation, they
are entertainment boxes. "Low latency" is 30ms by design,
if you got less it is because they made a mistake and "should" have used
cheaper parts. If they make an audio computer with super low latency
(10-15ms) it will be at musician prices (think brand new Gibson Les Paul).
I've had my eye on the Fender Custom Shop for while now.
The Gary Moore red Stratocaster (from his strat days) would be so nice.
Aren't there still places that build Linux audio computers? Yes I have to admit I mostly set and forget my
delta1010 - but that's
'cause I already know about envy24 and mudita24.
I guess I was concerned about people not getting the full picture
from their mixers and being disappointed.
That is a DE choice. Anyone serious about audio is going to have to go
deeper than that (probably on other OS too). The number of people who feel
they should be able to monitor on their computer speakers while using a
USB mic for input leaves me questioning if a more complex mixer is really
a good thing. HDA already has 3 output controls (4 maybe?) Master,
speakers, headphones, PCM any of which will change the same output
signal... jack (not jackd) pins can be automatically change use, etc. For
desktop use, pulse's single control is probably better.
Speaking of which...
I mentioned on Jack ml that QasMixer didn't seem to have any meters.
I seemed to recall that envy24/mudita24 meters were ALSA components
and wondered whether this could be added to Qas.
But another user remarked something about his Focusrite Scarlett where
ALSA don't do the meters in a good way (splitting them into channels?).
QasHctl does show the meters and the level does show but they only show
one capture. It seems to me they are not labeled in a way that I would
expect. It would eat more CPU, but I am sure it could be done... just the
same as my duplicate controls could be removed, with a dedicated profile
for the device.
Another user pointed out that ALSA may not be the
answer for all
cards and may even get some things incorrect whereas a dedicated
mixer might not. And said "usually class compliant USB devices don't
have alsamixer volume controls".
They can, but in general, if the USB device has physical controls, then it
has no need for alsa controls (there are no computer controlable controls
in any OS). Many USB audio chipsets (or maybe I should say cheap chipsets)
just do the audio with no controls. I think there is a complient way of
doing controls, but that may not deal with more complex routing. It seems
the thing these days is to make the audio interface double as a digital
mixer to help it actually sell for the higher price asked. I don't think
USB2.0 covers such a use.
--
Len Ovens
www.ovenwerks.net
5:26 p.m.
On Mon, 1 Apr 2019 00:07:41 -0400
Tim <termtech(a)rogers.com> wrote:
I mentioned on Jack ml that QasMixer didn't seem
to have any meters.
[ snip ]
Another user pointed out that ALSA may not be the answer for all
cards and may even get some things incorrect whereas a dedicated
mixer might not. And said "usually class compliant USB devices don't
have alsamixer volume controls".
I recently got an RME Babyface Pro and use it in its USB CC mode. I
fired up QasMixer only to find a completely blank window, so this seems
to be correct.
I pulled the Delta 1010 out of my primary mixing/overdubbing computer
in favor of the RME, and it's a bit odd not to have the full control of
the routing - I'm still trying to route the USB and 1/4" ins to the
headphone outs simultaneously (without resorting to finding a Windows
laptop to run TotalMix on). That's my only complaint, though.
I don't miss the rack next to my desk with the 1010s and patchbay, and
the RME sounds at least as good to my ears on inputs other than mics, and
better on mics since the preamps are better than any I've had before.
The lack of ALSA routing doesn't affect me much, as all the big projects
use Jack and all the ports are available to be routed. It's only if I
want to play guitar along with YouTube AND want to hear it in the headphones
that I remember I don't have all the flexibility available to me.
--
======================================================================
Joe Hartley - UNIX/network Consultant - jh(a)brainiac.com
Without deviation from the norm, "progress" is not possible. - FZappa
2091
days inactive
2092
days old
linux-audio-user@lists.linuxaudio.org
4 comments
3 participants
participants (3)
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Tim