31 Mar
2004
31 Mar
'04
5:09 a.m.
hi,
how can i simply protect my own prduced audio-cds?
which progs can i use? only commercial-ones?
any experiences??
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31 Mar
31 Mar
5:35 a.m.
On Wednesday 31 March 2004 10.03, michael heubeck wrote:
hi,
how can i simply protect my own prduced audio-cds?
which progs can i use? only commercial-ones?
any experiences??
Unless you are talking about something else than the types of "copy protected"
CD's that are so much discussed, I would stronly advice you to _not_ use such
technologies.
There are definitively no open source equivalents for various reasons
* it's wrong
* it's applied at a very low level during the burning process
(probably not supported by a standard burner)
* it's not red-book (the cd-standard) compliant, e.g it breaks in several
players.
If you are afraid people would copy your material, don't release it at all or
use other media (streaming or some such) to publicise it.
Pretty much all countries have laws that regulate this, it should be enough
for anyone...
/Robert
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6:34 a.m.
> how can i simply protect my own prduced
audio-cds?
Copyright is probably the best protection available, rather than a
dubious technological solution. I'm not aware of any DRM system that
can't be bypassed in some way. For background information, here's an
article I wrote:
http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/aug03/articles/drm.htm
Once you have copyright firmly established, you can then consider a
copyleft licence to regulate the kind of use that will be made of
your music, such as the Creative Commons licences.
I think the ultimate question for a musician is 'do you want less
people or more people to hear your music?' Professional artists need
a critical mass of appreciative listeners, after all. It's my belief
that the subset of people who never pay for music won't be made to
pay for it by DRM, so why care if they hear it for free?
To give an example, this week I went to the website of a local
musician who has just signed a five album deal. I've never heard this
guy's music at all, but I'm interested. So on the website, the
advertised download turns out to be a sub-CD quality Windows Media
Player file that I have to pay £1 to hear (that's about 1.83 US
dollars), use my own bandwidth to download and burn to CD myself - if
that's allowed.
Suddenly I'm less interested - not because I'm cheap, but because this
artist (or his management) is using a method of media delivery that I
don't find to be a particularly compelling purchase. Offer a tangible
CD that I can play on any machine without loss of quality or stupid
restrictions, and I'm the first to get my wallet out.
Cheers
Daniel
8:12 a.m.
On Wed, 31 Mar 2004 10:32:18 +0100, Daniel James wrote
Suddenly I'm less interested - not because I'm
cheap, but because
this artist (or his management) is using a method of media delivery
that I don't find to be a particularly compelling purchase. Offer a
tangible CD that I can play on any machine without loss of quality
or stupid restrictions, and I'm the first to get my wallet out.
Slightly off topic as this is not CD's, but the popularity of www.bleep.com -
warp record's non DRM mp3 download for cash website - indicates that a lot of
people agree with you.
I recommend people who find DRM unsavory to support sites like this.
cheers,
dave
................................. www.pawfal.org/nebogeo
8:44 a.m.
the popularity of www.bleep.com -
warp record's non DRM mp3 download for cash website - indicates
that a lot of people agree with you.
That's good to know! But I think the quality of Warp releases is
probably a big factor, plus that the kind of people who like that
genre tend to be tech-literate.
I recommend people who find DRM unsavory to support
sites like
this.
Quite - let's put our money where our mouths are. Good to see that
they are considering ogg vorbis and flac too.
Cheers
Daniel
1:31 p.m.
Hallo,
Daniel James hat gesagt: // Daniel James wrote:
Yes, they would know how to bypass Warp's protection anyway. But still
at least the last Warp-Record I bought had copy-protection on its
CD-version (I bought the vinyl, which still I cannot find a place for
- it was this huge Aphex Twin 4-record album in a double-length
package, IIRC)
ciao
--
Frank Barknecht _ ______footils.org__
the popularity
of www.bleep.com -
warp record's non DRM mp3 download for cash website - indicates
that a lot of people agree with you.
That's good to know! But I think the quality of Warp releases is
probably a big factor, plus that the kind of people who like that
genre tend to be tech-literate.
1 Apr
1 Apr
6:03 a.m.
But still
at least the last Warp-Record I bought had copy-protection on its
CD-version
Perhaps this is something Warp has now abandoned, or perhaps their
policy on DRM is to discourage ripping in order to sell MP3
downloads. This might not be inconsistent, because the label's
margins on the download are probably better than on the retail CD,
even though the download is at a lower retail price.
As I understand it, the retail shop takes about half the price of the
CD, then you've got to subtract production and distribution costs,
and allowances for breakages. Then there's discounted sales and
returns of unsold product too. By contrast, I'd guess that the value
of paid downloads (direct from the label) is mostly profit.
Cheers
Daniel
31 Mar
31 Mar
8:54 a.m.
On Wed, 31 Mar 2004 09:06 pm, Dave Griffiths wrote:
On Wed, 31 Mar 2004 10:32:18 +0100, Daniel James
wrote
While plugging non-DRM sites, don't forget http://magnatune.com
where you only pay *IF* you want to for full flac/wav copies of
the actual CDs, or ogg or mp3. No annoying 30-second samples. A
remarkably DRM/Copy-Protection/Flash/anything crap-free site.
--markc
Suddenly I'm less interested - not because
I'm cheap, but because
this artist (or his management) is using a method of media delivery
that I don't find to be a particularly compelling purchase. Offer a
tangible CD that I can play on any machine without loss of quality
or stupid restrictions, and I'm the first to get my wallet out.
Slightly off topic as this is not CD's, but the popularity of www.bleep.com -
warp record's non DRM mp3 download for cash website - indicates that a lot of
people agree with you.
I recommend people who find DRM unsavory to support sites like this.
10:02 a.m.
While plugging non-DRM sites, don't forget
http://magnatune.com
Sure - but it's worth noting that Warp was already an established
label with well known artists before they went down this route, where
as Magnatune and other similar labels are internet-only startups with
relatively unknown artists.
I think both Bleep and Magnatune are showing the industry the way
forward.
Cheers
Daniel
12:51 p.m.
On Wed, Mar 31, 2004 at 09:26:03PM +1000, Mark Constable wrote:
On Wed, 31 Mar 2004 09:06 pm, Dave Griffiths wrote:
emusic.com is also worth checking out. No DRM.
It's subscription-based, which I find a bit annoying - I'd
prefer an a-la-carte option - but the pricing is pretty good.
They don't have ogg or flac or anything but MP3, but
the MP3's are vbr and seem to be pretty decent quality.
you do have to download a trivial little "download manager"
binary, but they do have a linux version and it's pretty
unobtrusive.
--
Paul Winkler
http://www.slinkp.com
Look! Up in the sky! It's THE MAGICAL WIFEBEATER!
(random hero from isometric.spaceninja.com)
On Wed, 31 Mar 2004 10:32:18 +0100, Daniel James
wrote
While plugging non-DRM sites, don't forget http://magnatune.com
where you only pay *IF* you want to for full flac/wav copies of
the actual CDs, or ogg or mp3. No annoying 30-second samples. A
remarkably DRM/Copy-Protection/Flash/anything crap-free site. Suddenly I'm less interested - not because
I'm cheap, but because
this artist (or his management) is using a method of media delivery
that I don't find to be a particularly compelling purchase. Offer a
tangible CD that I can play on any machine without loss of quality
or stupid restrictions, and I'm the first to get my wallet out.
Slightly off topic as this is not CD's, but the popularity of www.bleep.com -
warp record's non DRM mp3 download for cash website - indicates that a lot of
people agree with you.
I recommend people who find DRM unsavory to support sites like this. 
2 Apr
2 Apr
9:29 p.m.
Thanks for the pointer. Bookmarked.
On Wednesday 31 March 2004 12:06, Dave Griffiths wrote:
On Wed, 31 Mar 2004 10:32:18 +0100, Daniel James
wrote
Suddenly I'm less interested - not because
I'm cheap, but because
this artist (or his management) is using a method of media delivery
that I don't find to be a particularly compelling purchase. Offer a
tangible CD that I can play on any machine without loss of quality
or stupid restrictions, and I'm the first to get my wallet out.
Slightly off topic as this is not CD's, but the popularity of www.bleep.com
- warp record's non DRM mp3 download for cash website - indicates that a
lot of people agree with you.
I recommend people who find DRM unsavory to support sites like this.
cheers,
dave
................................ www.pawfal.org/nebogeo
9:39 p.m.
Purchased a pure marvel. Very happy.
On Saturday 03 April 2004 01:23, Olivier Magere wrote:
Thanks for the pointer. Bookmarked.
On Wednesday 31 March 2004 12:06, Dave Griffiths wrote:
> On Wed, 31 Mar 2004 10:32:18 +0100, Daniel James wrote
>
> > Suddenly I'm less interested - not because I'm cheap, but because
> > this artist (or his management) is using a method of media delivery
> > that I don't find to be a particularly compelling purchase. Offer a
> > tangible CD that I can play on any machine without loss of quality
> > or stupid restrictions, and I'm the first to get my wallet out.
>
> Slightly off topic as this is not CD's, but the popularity of
> www.bleep.com - warp record's non DRM mp3 download for cash website -
> indicates that a lot of people agree with you.
>
> I recommend people who find DRM unsavory to support sites like this.
>
> cheers,
>
> dave
>
> ................................ www.pawfal.org/nebogeo
31 Mar
31 Mar
2:14 p.m.
On Wed, 31 Mar 2004 10:03:30 +0200, michael heubeck wrote
hi,
how can i simply protect my own prduced audio-cds?
which progs can i use? only commercial-ones?
any experiences??
While we can get all political and anti DRM - it *would* be interesting to
know how it worked...
dave
................................. www.pawfal.org/nebogeo
2:51 p.m.
Hallo,
Dave Griffiths hat gesagt: // Dave Griffiths wrote:
While we can get all political and anti DRM - it
*would* be
interesting to know how it worked...
It works in a way no standard CD burner can work, IIR. It does create
non-standards-compliant CDs with "errors" that *should* only affect CD
drives in computers. See for example this in-depth doc:
http://www.cs.princeton.edu/~jhalderm/papers/drm2002.pdf
It does affect several hifi-CD-players as well though, for example
mine. That's one practical reason why I don't buy copy-protected CDs.
Funnily I once *had* to buy a DRM-CD (Paddy McAloon) because there was
no vinly version. It didn't run in my hifi-player, but could be
grabbed with cdparanoia withouth problems and be reburned to audio-CD.
Thank god they didn't do it right.
The major music industry has lost me as a buyer, and I was a decent to
good customer. May they rot...
ciao
--
Frank Barknecht _ ______footils.org__
1 Apr
1 Apr
6:40 a.m.
Frank Barknecht wrote:
Dave Griffiths hat gesagt: // Dave Griffiths wrote:
Computer CD drives are supposed to do more error detection because
silently reading corrupted data is worse than refusing to read the
data. However, if a drive behaves just as "dumb" as an audio CD
drive, it can read "protected" CDs without problems.
It is _not_ possible to prevent anyone from reading audio CDs because
audio CD drives still must be able to read the data digitally from the
CD.
While we can get all political and anti DRM - it
*would* be
interesting to know how it worked...
It works in a way no standard CD burner can work, IIR. It does create
non-standards-compliant CDs with "errors" that *should* only affect CD
drives in computers. It does affect several hifi-CD-players as well though,
for example
mine.
Many modern CD players use a computer CD drive because there isn't
much of a price difference between those and audio CD drives anymore.
> On Wed, 31 Mar 2004 10:03:30 +0200, michael
heubeck wrote
> > which progs can i use? only commercial-ones?
Many protection schemes rely on wrong data in a second session on the
CD. It would be possible to create a CD image, insert appropriate
errors, and then burn it, but there are no free tools for this AFAIK.
Clemens
7:12 a.m.
Hallo,
Clemens Ladisch hat gesagt: // Clemens Ladisch wrote:
Frank Barknecht wrote:
Well, mine is a very old player and surely not one with a PC drive in
it (which would probably have been much more expensive at that time)
ciao
--
Frank Barknecht _ ______footils.org__
It does affect several hifi-CD-players as well
though, for example
mine.
Many modern CD players use a computer CD drive because there isn't
much of a price difference between those and audio CD drives anymore.
9:41 a.m.
mine is a very old player and surely not one with a PC
drive in
it
I think the higher quality players are more sensitive to corruption,
and are designed to reject 'faulty' discs rather than let them play.
I believe some models have error meters which light up whenever a
'protected' disc is played.
I've often heard very expensive CD players at radio stations screw up
on air, while the cheap players don't care about errors and will play
almost anything!
Cheers
Daniel
10 a.m.
Greetings:
One of my students came to his lesson without his tunes CD this week.
It's a home-burned disc, he put it in his in-car player (an older Sony
6-disc unit) and the player refused to recognize it. Worse, the player
refused to disgorge the disc. So, does anyone know how to get a CD out
of a player mounted in the dashboard of a car ?
More relevant question: What causes such lock-ups ? I've experienced
players that refused to recognize some home-burned discs but I've never
had a player lock up while attempting to play one. I've also heard that
the reflective surface of some discs will send some players into fits.
Do contemporary units look for a copy-protection bit ? Can the lack of
copy-protection cause a lock-up ? How will DRM-enabled players respond
to a home-burned disc ?
Btw, someone should have tried to answer the original poster's
inquiry. AFAICT we've just responded with our opinions regarding the
vile nature of copy protection and the drawbacks of current copyright
law. In case anyone's interested in minimally copy-protecting a CD here
are some relevant entries from 'man cdrecord' :
-copy If this flag is present, all TOC entries for subsequent audio
tracks of the resulting CD will indicate that the audio
data has
permission to be copied without limit. This option
has no
effect on data tracks.
-nocopy
If this flag is present, all TOC entries for subsequent
audio
tracks of the resulting CD will indicate that the audio
data has
permission to be copied only once for personal use - this
is the
default.
-scms If this flag is present, all TOC entries for subsequent audio
tracks of the resulting CD will indicate that the audio
data has
no permission to be copied anymore.
Best,
dp
Daniel James wrote:
mine is a very
old player and surely not one with a PC drive in
it
I think the higher quality players are more sensitive to corruption,
and are designed to reject 'faulty' discs rather than let them play.
I believe some models have error meters which light up whenever a
'protected' disc is played.
I've often heard very expensive CD players at radio stations screw up
on air, while the cheap players don't care about errors and will play
almost anything!
Cheers
Daniel
10:14 a.m.
So, does anyone
know how to get a CD out of a player mounted in the dashboard of a
car ?
There's sometimes a pinhole which you can use to eject discs manually
with a straightened paperclip. If that fails, the unit will probably
have to go back to the dealer.
-scms If this flag is present, all TOC entries
for
subsequent audio tracks of the resulting CD will indicate that the
audio data has
no permission to be copied anymore.
I wouldn't call that copy protection, since we know that SCMS is
easily ignored or bypassed.
Cheers
Daniel
10:30 a.m.
Daniel James wrote:
Which is why I specified :
"... minimally copy-protecting a CD..."
Best,
dp
-scms If
this flag is present, all TOC entries for
subsequent audio tracks of the resulting CD will indicate that the
audio data has
no permission to be copied anymore.
I wouldn't call that copy protection, since we know that SCMS is
easily ignored or bypassed.
12:46 p.m.
hi, joining in for a second after reading Courtney Love's article and the amazing
magnatune site...
On Thu, Apr 01, 2004 at 02:12:31PM +0100, Daniel James wrote:
I would call it the _perfect_ copy protection.
As someone pointed out: anything you can listen to, you can copy.
So, the last meaning of copy protection for me means the _information_:
So I will put in a CD, an read (scms): "oh, this guy doesn't want me to copy his
CD", "well then I go and buy/dl it..."
or I will read (-copy): "Alright then, I can copy this one..."
the world is good. we are not evil.
cheers, tobias.
So, does
anyone
know how to get a CD out of a player mounted in the dashboard of a
car ?
There's sometimes a pinhole which you can use to eject discs manually
with a straightened paperclip. If that fails, the unit will probably
have to go back to the dealer.
-scms If this flag is present, all TOC
entries for
subsequent audio tracks of the resulting CD will indicate that the
audio data has
no permission to be copied anymore.
I wouldn't call that copy protection, since we know that SCMS is
easily ignored or bypassed.
Cheers
Daniel
11:42 a.m.
On Thu, 2004-04-01 at 14:26, Dave Phillips wrote:
One of my students came to his lesson without his
tunes CD this week.
It's a home-burned disc, he put it in his in-car player (an older Sony
6-disc unit) and the player refused to recognize it. Worse, the player
refused to disgorge the disc. So, does anyone know how to get a CD out
of a player mounted in the dashboard of a car ?
Automotive CD players I've worked on have a 'feature' to eject CD's
after a battery disconnect. Others specify holding the eject key for a
long time, or holding eject upon battery connection.
Such a feature depends on the car manufacturer being (rightly) paranoid
to specify such behaviour. YMMV.
R
12:38 p.m.
Dave Phillips wrote:
Greetings:
One of my students came to his lesson without his tunes CD this week.
It's a home-burned disc, he put it in his in-car player (an older Sony
6-disc unit) and the player refused to recognize it. Worse, the player
refused to disgorge the disc. So, does anyone know how to get a CD out
of a player mounted in the dashboard of a car ?
I went back to my Volvo dealer and he gave me a new player. ;-)
- Mark
2:05 p.m.
Hallo,
Dave Phillips hat gesagt: // Dave Phillips wrote:
Btw, someone should have tried to answer the original
poster's
inquiry.
I actually intended to answer his question a bit: The "NO COPY" bit
doesn't really do copy protection as was pointed out. The "real" copy
protection that is used by some music labels is AFAIK not possible to
do with standard CD burners. In fact, the companies that develop copy
protection schemes for audio CD demand a license fee to allow someone
else to use it and they try to keep the actual process secret.
Quoting http://www.macrovision.com/products/cds/index.shtml
CDS is a single-station, stand-alone 'black box' installed in-line
between the data processing (DP) station and the laser beam recorder
(LBR) mastering system.
Here you have it: "black box"! So copy protection like the Big Boys
isn't available to us.
Ciao
--
Frank Barknecht _ ______footils.org__
7534
days inactive
7536
days old
linux-audio-user@lists.linuxaudio.org
24 comments
14 participants
participants (14)
-
Clemens Ladisch -
Daniel James -
Dave Griffiths -
Dave Phillips -
Erik Steffl -
Frank Barknecht -
Mark Constable -
Mark Knecht -
michael heubeck -
Olivier Magere -
Paul Winkler -
Robert Jonsson -
robin fell -
Tobias Ulbricht