26 Feb
2007
26 Feb
'07
8:18 a.m.
Hi there,
The italian DJ and Developer Lucio Asnaghi has made a first preview of simple
host for native VST on Linux. Native VST for Linux was founded first by
Jorgen Aase /EnergyXT2, but the communication is problematic (also other devs
reported that Jorgen didn't anwer to any mail), so Lucio decided to make an
own host, based on the framework JUCE , because he porting a lot of VST
Synths to Linux. (he also made a great port from ZynAdd Windows VST back to
Linux VST)
It shall be released in March under an open licence. He will build up this
small host JOST (Jack hOST) to a instrumentrack with basic sequencer
functions. Later he will build up a full sequencer named "Juggler", which
should be near to the commercial Tracktion. (JUCE is the framework behind
Tracktion1)
You can download the first preview from the website of the autor.
http://www.anticore.org/jucetice/index.php?entry=entry070225-170635
The best native Linux VST plugins for testing JOST are the mdaSuite:
http://www.energy-xt.com/download/mda_linux.tar.gz
More information about JUCE, Tracktion and Julian Storer
http://www.rawmaterialsoftware.com/juce/
regards,
Michael
.:www.jacklab.net:.
ProAudio for openSUSE Linux
26 Feb
26 Feb
10:33 a.m.
On Mon, 2007-02-26 at 14:18 +0100, Michael Bohle wrote:
Hi there,
The italian DJ and Developer Lucio Asnaghi has made a first preview of simple
host for native VST on Linux. Native VST for Linux was founded first by
native VST for linux has yet to produce anything concrete at all,
AFAICT. developers of VST plugins are *not* writing plugins for linux.
if you wanted to make native VST on linux easier, the sensible thing to
do is to implement VSTGUI on top of X11 and/or one or more contemporary
toolkits.
if the "best native Linux VST plugins for testing" are the MDA plugins,
then i would have to say that this hasn't accomplished a lot.
Jorgen Aase /EnergyXT2, but the communication is
problematic (also other devs
reported that Jorgen didn't anwer to any mail), so Lucio decided to make an
own host, based on the framework JUCE , because he porting a lot of VST
Synths to Linux. (he also made a great port from ZynAdd Windows VST back to
Linux VST)
It shall be released in March under an open licence. He will build up this
small host JOST (Jack hOST) to a instrumentrack with basic sequencer
functions. Later he will build up a full sequencer named "Juggler", which
should be near to the commercial Tracktion. (JUCE is the framework behind
Tracktion1)
really. fascinating. and just how long do you imagine this might take?
how long do you think traktion took to create? how many people do you
think work on Traktion at the moment?
there are already a few JACK-aware VST hosting sequencers/DAWs. there is
already DSSI. there is already a DSSI-VST bridge. there is already a
run-VST-plugin-as-JACK-client host. what do you actually think is gained
by starting up yet another project to do this?
mike taht told me a cute story of how he spoke at a conference somewhere
and asked everyone in the room how many of them had their own projects
going on. Everyone in the room raised their hands. mike said that he
didn't have to guts to ask "Does anyone ever think that maybe there are
too many projects?". he did raise the idea that it would be really good
for *everyone* if people would give some of their attention to other
projects periodically. i plead guilty to not doing this, its true.
12:23 p.m.
On Mon, 2007-02-26 at 09:33 -0500, Paul Davis wrote:
for *everyone* if people would give some of their
attention to other
projects periodically. i plead guilty to not doing this, its true.
yeah! why does noone pay attention to MY projects?
seriously tho, aldrin is built on top of libzzub, which is built on top
of a lost host by someone else, and we have a website and a community
growing and all this stuff, and i ditched some of my other private
projects for it all.
however i think there is nothing wrong with having a good mix between
private projects and collaborating with others. and may i suggest that
people who just stick to their personal stuff usually are not good
enough to participate in bigger projects anyway ;) (yeah - i dare you to
speak up)
--
Leonard Ritter
-- Freelance Art & Logic
-- http://www.leonard-ritter.com
12:38 p.m.
Paul Davis skrev:
On Mon, 2007-02-26 at 14:18 +0100, Michael Bohle
wrote:
This seem to me a very strange post! Why this frustration! Here this guy
is actually trying to improve what he (and probably others) figures is a
problem within the world of linux. So he begins to write a program to
fix it instead of moaning about it. And then he announces it - only to
get bashed by one of the key figures in the linux audio world. Strange!
Best regards
Ketil Thorgersen
Hi there,
The italian DJ and Developer Lucio Asnaghi has made a first preview of simple
host for native VST on Linux. Native VST for Linux was founded first by
native VST for linux has yet to produce anything concrete at all,
AFAICT. developers of VST plugins are *not* writing plugins for linux.
if you wanted to make native VST on linux easier, the sensible thing to
do is to implement VSTGUI on top of X11 and/or one or more contemporary
toolkits.
if the "best native Linux VST plugins for testing" are the MDA plugins,
then i would have to say that this hasn't accomplished a lot.
Jorgen Aase /EnergyXT2, but the communication is
problematic (also other devs
reported that Jorgen didn't anwer to any mail), so Lucio decided to make an
own host, based on the framework JUCE , because he porting a lot of VST
Synths to Linux. (he also made a great port from ZynAdd Windows VST back to
Linux VST)
It shall be released in March under an open licence. He will build up this
small host JOST (Jack hOST) to a instrumentrack with basic sequencer
functions. Later he will build up a full sequencer named "Juggler", which
should be near to the commercial Tracktion. (JUCE is the framework behind
Tracktion1)
really. fascinating. and just how long do you imagine this might take?
how long do you think traktion took to create? how many people do you
think work on Traktion at the moment?
there are already a few JACK-aware VST hosting sequencers/DAWs. there is
already DSSI. there is already a DSSI-VST bridge. there is already a
run-VST-plugin-as-JACK-client host. what do you actually think is gained
by starting up yet another project to do this?
mike taht told me a cute story of how he spoke at a conference somewhere
and asked everyone in the room how many of them had their own projects
going on. Everyone in the room raised their hands. mike said that he
didn't have to guts to ask "Does anyone ever think that maybe there are
too many projects?". he did raise the idea that it would be really good
for *everyone* if people would give some of their attention to other
projects periodically. i plead guilty to not doing this, its true.
1:01 p.m.
On Mon, 2007-02-26 at 17:25 +0100, Ketil Thorgersen wrote:
>> It shall be released in March under an open
licence. He will build up this
>> small host JOST (Jack hOST) to a instrumentrack with basic sequencer
>> functions. Later he will build up a full sequencer named "Juggler",
which
>> should be near to the commercial Tracktion. (JUCE is the framework behind
>> Tracktion1)
This seem to me a very strange post! Why this
frustration! Here this guy
is actually trying to improve what he (and probably others) figures is a
problem within the world of linux. So he begins to write a program to
fix it instead of moaning about it. And then he announces it - only to
get bashed by one of the key figures in the linux audio world. Strange!
what is the number one issue facing pro-audio/music-oriented linux audio
right now, other than the need for every single possible hardware
interface to work? *developers*. there isn't a single project that
couldn't use a at least a few more developers. every single project:
Rosegarden, MuSE, Lilypond, Aldrin, Ardour, JACK, Seq24, Ingen,
Hydrogen, even ALSA itself, plus many more fine efforts that i've failed
to name. they all need people to add new functionality, to fix bugs, to
grow, scale, handle new goals and more.
but instead, somebody plans to start a *new* project with essentially
identical goals in terms of functionality as several existing projects.
not only that, but someone speaking on his behalf even says "which
should be near to the commercial Traktion" apparently without even a
thought about what this actually involves. people say stuff like this as
if good audio sequencers (and Traktion, in its own particular way, is
really pretty good) are programs on the level of a new PHP module for a
CMS, or a python hack to do mail filtering. done properly, with proper
attention for what users actually need, these are deeply complex
programs, perhaps more complex than anything except an operating system.
nobody in the open source/free software world can force other people to
work on a given project, but i am certainly free to complain at what i
see as misdirected effort. i know how hard it is to write a good
GUI-driven audio application. having developers appear with the
announcement that they are going to write another one is frustrating.
1:17 p.m.
On Mon, 2007-02-26 at 11:59 -0500, Paul Davis wrote:
On Mon, 2007-02-26 at 17:25 +0100, Ketil Thorgersen
wrote:
By that reasoning the logical thing to do would be to merge Rosegarden,
MuSE, and Ardour, Aldrin and Beast/BSE, Zyn and WhySynth etc etc. While
it may be more efficient in the short term, I think that having lots of
choices is good in the long term. The more choices the better.
--ll
>> It shall be released in March under an
open licence. He will build up this
>> small host JOST (Jack hOST) to a instrumentrack with basic sequencer
>> functions. Later he will build up a full sequencer named "Juggler",
which
>> should be near to the commercial Tracktion. (JUCE is the framework behind
>> Tracktion1)
This seem to me a very strange post! Why this
frustration! Here this guy
is actually trying to improve what he (and probably others) figures is a
problem within the world of linux. So he begins to write a program to
fix it instead of moaning about it. And then he announces it - only to
get bashed by one of the key figures in the linux audio world. Strange!
what is the number one issue facing pro-audio/music-oriented linux audio
right now, other than the need for every single possible hardware
interface to work? *developers*. there isn't a single project that
couldn't use a at least a few more developers. every single project:
Rosegarden, MuSE, Lilypond, Aldrin, Ardour, JACK, Seq24, Ingen,
Hydrogen, even ALSA itself, plus many more fine efforts that i've failed
to name. they all need people to add new functionality, to fix bugs, to
grow, scale, handle new goals and more.
1:40 p.m.
On Mon, 2007-02-26 at 18:16 +0100, Lars Luthman wrote:
By that reasoning the logical thing to do would be to
merge Rosegarden,
MuSE, and Ardour, Aldrin and Beast/BSE, Zyn and WhySynth etc etc. While
it may be more efficient in the short term, I think that having lots of
choices is good in the long term. The more choices the better.
You scare me, Dr. Frankenstein. Aldrin and Beast can never be merged.
Why?
P: "Hi, I'm Python!"
C: "And I am C++!"
P: "Great to see you, how are you?"
C: "This is a great PyObject. After typechecking I figured out it is
actually a sentence object, and now that I extracted the string to read
your message, let me create a new sentence for you which goes like: 'I
am fine. And you?', and I wrap it into this PyObject and send it back to
you. But I add this GObject signal handler so when you answer, the
handler function for that one is called. However be sure that you pass a
valid string type, and that you delete the allocated..."
--
Leonard Ritter
-- Freelance Art & Logic
-- http://www.leonard-ritter.com
2:02 p.m.
On Mon, 2007-02-26 at 18:16 +0100, Lars Luthman wrote:
By that reasoning the logical thing to do would be to
merge Rosegarden,
MuSE, and Ardour, Aldrin and Beast/BSE, Zyn and WhySynth etc etc. While
it may be more efficient in the short term, I think that having lots of
choices is good in the long term. The more choices the better.
there is a huge difference between trying to merge existing source code,
especially across GUI toolkits, and starting up Yet Another Thing That
Does Something That Something Else Does Almost But Not Quite The Way I
Imagined It.
Also, what is long term?
1:30 p.m.
On Mon, 2007-02-26 at 11:59 -0500, Paul Davis wrote:
there isn't a single project that
couldn't use a at least a few more developers. every single project:
Rosegarden, MuSE, Lilypond, Aldrin,
now hold it there! i don't want any of your dirty fingers on my precious
code.
no, actually, i think we are doing fine. manpower doesn't necessarily
mean faster progress. if we just keep stealing from each others codebase
(that's what gpl is about, dammit), each one of our little projects will
turn out just fine.
--
Leonard Ritter
-- Freelance Art & Logic
-- http://www.leonard-ritter.com
1:34 p.m.
On Mon, 2007-02-26 at 18:30 +0100, Leonard Ritter wrote:
On Mon, 2007-02-26 at 11:59 -0500, Paul Davis wrote:
OK.
s/there isn't/there is only/
there isn't a single project that
couldn't use a at least a few more developers. every single project:
Rosegarden, MuSE, Lilypond, Aldrin,
now hold it there! i don't want any of your dirty fingers on my precious
code. 
2:20 p.m.
Leonard Ritter wrote:
On Mon, 2007-02-26 at 11:59 -0500, Paul Davis wrote:
In our attempt to help fulfilling 'the need for every single possible
hardware interface to work', we could use some helping hands. I'm pretty
confident that we're better off with a lot of (possibly dirty-handed)
coders + some good maintainers than with the current situation where 3
spare-time coders do it all. The current situation does help for
satisfying my personal need for eternal glory and unlimited kudos...
We should keep in mind that we're all doing it for fun (I hope) and that
most of us don't make a living out of this. Concentration of these
spare-time development efforts would be nice, but it doesn't seem to be
working that way.
My personal feeling is that the initial effort to learn somebody else's
code is the main bottleneck towards entering a project. Sometimes people
think they can do it better, or that it will be easier to do a complete
rewrite. And sometimes they are right (e.g. ZynAddSubFX).
To some extent, the developers are to blame too. How often does a
project lack (decent) source code documentation, while that is IMHO
necessary for cooperation?
From a global view, there is something to be said for the fact that
fragmentation is one of our strengths, but it might as well be one of
our biggest enemies.
a few cents of mine,
Pieter Palmers
FreeBoB - Firewire Audio for Linux
PS: tell me that these already exist, so that I don't have to start my
own private projects: 'AbletonLive4Linux', a decent arpeggiator (I can't
seem to grasp QMidiArp), 'lock-jack-transport-to-tha-captured-beat'.
there isn't a single project that
couldn't use a at least a few more developers. every single project:
Rosegarden, MuSE, Lilypond, Aldrin,
now hold it there! i don't want any of your dirty fingers on my precious
code.
no, actually, i think we are doing fine. manpower doesn't necessarily
mean faster progress. if we just keep stealing from each others codebase
(that's what gpl is about, dammit), each one of our little projects will
turn out just fine.
2:48 p.m.
On Mon, 2007-02-26 at 19:18 +0100, Pieter Palmers wrote:
In our attempt to help fulfilling 'the need for
every single possible
hardware interface to work', we could use some helping hands.
i suppose you are talking about freebob. what about writing a
documentation on how to do this? i, for example, own an m-audio firewire
410 that does right now not work with freebob, but i consider myself to
be unable to comprehend anything that relates to devices or the
programming of them. how can you free me from my anxieties? give me
information!
We should keep in mind that we're all doing it for
fun (I hope)
you call this fun? it's horrible! fun is a night of watching "dead like
me" seasons! writing gallons of code to solve a problem is not fun! a
solved problem is fun, yes!
call it passion. and fame is a valid reward for passion.
To some extent, the developers are to blame too. How
often does a
project lack (decent) source code documentation, while that is IMHO
necessary for cooperation?
exactly!
PS: tell me that these already exist, so that I
don't have to start
my
own private projects: 'AbletonLive4Linux',
aldrin is supposed to progress towards a blend of ideas from buzz, live
and reason. however i never used live much, so i need people to tell me
what they'd like to see in the app.
--
Leonard Ritter
-- Freelance Art & Logic
-- http://www.leonard-ritter.com
3:23 p.m.
Leonard Ritter wrote:
fair enough... the headaches are no fun indeed.
but success is very cool.
What I want is an application that allows me to be creative with loops
without losing the idea of a song. The focus is live mixing oriented.
Start from a song, then split it into 'regions' that can be looped
(either beforehand or live). Then allow sequencing of these loops in any
imaginable manner. Imagine a song with
"intro-theme1-bridge-theme2-outtro". I want to be able to say: play
intro, then theme1 two times, skip the bridge and play theme2 two times,
then theme1 again, then the outtro. Then start over.
I want this on multiple tracks (song1-song2-song3) simultaneously and
synchronized, while respecting beats/bars.
etc...
Pieter
On Mon, 2007-02-26 at 19:18 +0100, Pieter Palmers
wrote:
I'm as unhappy as you that we don't have the information we
need to
support the 410. Obtaining information from some hardware vendors is
almost as time-consuming as writing support for their devices.
(This is one of the area's where fragmentation does not help.)
The really sad fact is that supporting it with freebob will probably be
very easy, but we just don't get that little bit of extra information we
need. If you can manage to get it, it is a matter of days.
Just for perspective: I implemented the DICE-II basic support in one
day, because they provided me with decent information. Now the only
thing is that they have to provide me with a device to test my
implementation with... debugging will probably take longer than writing it.
In our attempt to help fulfilling 'the need
for every single possible
hardware interface to work', we could use some helping hands.
i suppose you are talking about freebob. what about writing a
documentation on how to do this? i, for example, own an m-audio firewire
410 that does right now not work with freebob, but i consider myself to
be unable to comprehend anything that relates to devices or the
programming of them. how can you free me from my anxieties? give me
information! We should keep in mind that we're all doing
it for fun (I hope)
you call this fun? it's horrible! fun is a night of watching "dead like
me" seasons! writing gallons of code to solve a problem is not fun! a
solved problem is fun, yes! call it passion. and fame is a valid reward for
passion.
that is a better term indeed.
To some extent, the developers are to blame too.
How often does a
project lack (decent) source code documentation, while that is IMHO
necessary for cooperation?
exactly!
PS: tell me that these already exist, so that I
don't have to start
my
own private projects: 'AbletonLive4Linux',
aldrin is supposed to progress towards a blend of ideas from buzz, live
and reason. however i never used live much, so i need people to tell me
what they'd like to see in the app. 
27 Feb
27 Feb
4:12 a.m.
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1
On Mon, Feb 26, 2007 at 07:18:19PM +0100, Pieter Palmers wrote:
Leonard Ritter wrote:
Exactly. A good discussion, but this thread is ultimately as old as Free Software.
I think this sums it up pretty well:
http://goatchowder.wordpress.com/2006/04/09/in-praise-of-cadt/
Which is a response to the classic:
http://www.jwz.org/doc/cadt.html
- -ken
On Mon, 2007-02-26 at 11:59 -0500, Paul Davis
wrote:
In our attempt to help fulfilling 'the need for every single possible
hardware interface to work', we could use some helping hands. I'm pretty
confident that we're better off with a lot of (possibly dirty-handed)
coders + some good maintainers than with the current situation where 3
spare-time coders do it all. The current situation does help for
satisfying my personal need for eternal glory and unlimited kudos...
We should keep in mind that we're all doing it for fun (I hope) and that
most of us don't make a living out of this. Concentration of these
spare-time development efforts would be nice, but it doesn't seem to be
working that way.
My personal feeling is that the initial effort to learn somebody else's
code is the main bottleneck towards entering a project. Sometimes people
think they can do it better, or that it will be easier to do a complete
rewrite. And sometimes they are right (e.g. ZynAddSubFX).
there isn't a single project that
couldn't use a at least a few more developers. every single project:
Rosegarden, MuSE, Lilypond, Aldrin,
now hold it there! i don't want any of your dirty fingers on my precious
code.
no, actually, i think we are doing fine. manpower doesn't necessarily
mean faster progress. if we just keep stealing from each others codebase
(that's what gpl is about, dammit), each one of our little projects will
turn out just fine.
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4:18 a.m.
New subject: [linux-audio-user] Beat Tracking [was: ANN: JOST, a simple host for native VST]
Am Montag, den 26.02.2007, 19:18 +0100 schrieb Pieter Palmers:
PS: tell me that these already exist, so that I
don't have to start my
own private projects: 'AbletonLive4Linux', a decent arpeggiator (I can't
seem to grasp QMidiArp), 'lock-jack-transport-to-tha-captured-beat'.
That's something I've been thinking about for quite a while now. I'm
planning to write a Jack Timebase Master which listens to an input port
analyzing the stream and tracking the beat. MIDI Clock output would be
next. My motivation is to sync seq24 & Co. to live drums. aubio comes
with a causal beat tracker but my first attempts with it were not very
promising. Causal beat tracking, however, is by no means trivial.
Especially if you do not know the kind of the input signal, e. g. drums
vs. a violin.
I did a little bit of state of the art research, so all I can provide
for now is a bunch of papers (and a project name FWIW).
Should you decide to start your own project on this, please get in touch
with me (LAC2007?).
Jan
6:15 a.m.
New subject: [linux-audio-user] Beat Tracking [was: ANN: JOST, a simple host for native VST]
Jan Weil wrote:
Am Montag, den 26.02.2007, 19:18 +0100 schrieb Pieter
Palmers:
I don't think this should aim at the general beat tracking
problem,
especially not in the early stages.
PS: tell me that these already exist, so that I
don't have to start my
own private projects: 'AbletonLive4Linux', a decent arpeggiator (I can't
seem to grasp QMidiArp), 'lock-jack-transport-to-tha-captured-beat'.
That's something I've been thinking about for quite a while now. I'm
planning to write a Jack Timebase Master which listens to an input port
analyzing the stream and tracking the beat. MIDI Clock output would be
next. My motivation is to sync seq24 & Co. to live drums. aubio comes
with a causal beat tracker but my first attempts with it were not very
promising. Causal beat tracking, however, is by no means trivial.
Especially if you do not know the kind of the input signal, e. g. drums
vs. a violin.
I did a little bit of state of the art research, so all I can provide
for now is a bunch of papers (and a project name FWIW).
Should you decide to start your own project on this, please get in touch
with me (LAC2007?).
I already did some experiments on this, and my preliminary
conclusion is
that the most reliable way is to start from user input (i.e. some
tapping). If you have this as a basic hint to start from it is not that
difficult to get in & keep sync.
But I don't have time to take on another project...
Pieter
26 Feb
26 Feb
6:30 p.m.
On Monday 26 Feb 2007 16:59, Paul Davis wrote:
there isn't a single project that couldn't use
a at least a few more
developers. every single project: Rosegarden, MuSE, Lilypond, Aldrin,
Ardour, JACK, Seq24, Ingen, Hydrogen, even ALSA itself, plus many more
fine efforts that i've failed to name.
While this is undoubtedly true (in the case of Rosegarden at least), I
agree with Lars that it's not the whole story.
Rosegarden has suffered, as a project for actual users to use, from
having too broad a scope. That may be to ill-discipline on our part,
but if there had been a lively and popular alternative for any one part
of what Rosegarden does then we might not have been so tempted to keep
broadening it, or we might have been more inclined to make it better
specialised for users who we understood better. As it is, we get a lot
of users and prospective users who ought to be using some other program
that does not seem to exist (though seq24 goes some of the way, and
Dino and Qtractor are interesting).
From this perspective, competition looks good even from inside the
project. If MusE had been more widely used earlier, for example, that
might have affected our goals, probably for the better. If we had been
more communicative with the MusE developers, in a particular way that
probably neither project would have understood how to manage at the
time, that might have had the same result. We aren't, in fact,
competing; the concept of competition may apply to the software, but it
doesn't have to apply to the developers.
As it is, we have to work on what we have, and what we have now is
something that does bits of everything. That could be why we're so
short of developers.
I do instantly take a dislike to projects that start up saying their
ambition is to clone some commercial app directly for Linux. But
that's another argument (that I seem to remember having on LAD once
before, and will have again in the pub with anyone, any day).
Chris
7:01 p.m.
måndag 26 februari 2007 23:33 skrev Chris Cannam:
I do instantly take a dislike to projects that start
up saying their
ambition is to clone some commercial app directly for Linux. But
that's another argument (that I seem to remember having on LAD once
before, and will have again in the pub with anyone, any day).
Well you're on. I've got no problem discussing that topic. It's not commercial
app that is the problem. It's the closed source that is.
/bengan
27 Feb
27 Feb
8:01 a.m.
On Monday 26 Feb 2007 23:01, Bengt Gördén wrote:
måndag 26 februari 2007 23:33 skrev Chris Cannam:
Yes, I should have said closed source or proprietary. Not that it makes
much difference in this context, as all the commercial audio apps are
proprietary and there are few proprietary non-commercial audio apps
that are substantial enough to inspire projects to clone them.
It's not that I wouldn't prefer they were free software; it's that
setting out to clone an existing program, especially in the field of
art or entertainment, is a misapplication of your own creative energy.
Here's the earlier flam^H^H^H^Hargument. I don't have much to add.
http://www.music.columbia.edu/pipermail/linux-audio-dev/2006-February/01474…
It's really a five pints in the pub discussion.
Chris
I do instantly take a dislike to projects that
start up saying
their ambition is to clone some commercial app directly for Linux.
But that's another argument (that I seem to remember having on LAD
once before, and will have again in the pub with anyone, any day).
Well you're on. I've got no problem discussing that topic. It's not
commercial app that is the problem. It's the closed source that is.
9:34 a.m.
On Tue, 2007-02-27 at 12:02 +0000, Chris Cannam wrote:
Here's the earlier flam^H^H^H^Hargument. I
don't have much to add.
http://www.music.columbia.edu/pipermail/linux-audio-dev/2006-February/01474…
It's really a five pints in the pub discussion.
in the following example, switch FL studio by whatever you see fit to
transport the argument.
say you say "i want to use FL studio". what you mean by that is that you
want to use something that has the interface and handling of FL studio.
let us assume that interface and handling has been designed with
attractiveness in mind: that users will prefer this kind of interface
and use/buy the application because of that - which is exactly why "i
want to use FL studio" actually came up.
implicitly, you also mean: "...but i don't want to pay anything for it,
and i need the freedom to modify and share this software." this, FL
studio can only provide to some extent, by the restrictive nature of the
FL developers business model.
now we apply your marie-antoinette-like reasoning of "well, then use FL
studio!". hence, using FL studio would be a compromise between the need
of free software (obviously, a need you should suppress) and the need of
an interface which you deem attractive (which values over the need for
free software, by your argument).
it goes further: since you see the interface of FL studio as part of an
"evaluative method that is drawn from business", the interface of FL
studio should NOT be cloned in a free software application, because
this, by your argument, would mean an act of competition - and acts of
competition are, by your argument, part of business. however this
solution would provide a full solution for the needs described above.
what is your reasoning for denying such a solution, if you had the power
to control the fate of development?
--
Leonard Ritter
-- Freelance Art & Logic
-- http://www.leonard-ritter.com
10:25 a.m.
On Tuesday 27 Feb 2007 13:22, Leonard Ritter wrote:
it goes further: since you see the interface of FL
studio as part of
an "evaluative method that is drawn from business"
I don't think I understand that, and I suspect that if I did, I would
find it wasn't what I meant.
I'm not referring to the software itself, or any quality of it, when I
refer to things that come from the world of business. I'm talking
about motivations and the justifications for doing things. An act of
competition is an act of competition because it's done to compete, not
because it results in the same outcome as an act of competition.
Chris
10:45 a.m.
On Tue, 2007-02-27 at 14:24 +0000, Chris Cannam wrote:
I'm not referring to the software itself, or any
quality of it, when I
refer to things that come from the world of business. I'm talking
about motivations and the justifications for doing things. An act of
competition is an act of competition because it's done to compete, not
because it results in the same outcome as an act of competition.
good. no further questions. ;)
--
Leonard Ritter
-- Freelance Art & Logic
-- http://www.leonard-ritter.com
3:19 p.m.
On Mon, Feb 26, 2007 at 10:33:04PM +0000, Chris Cannam wrote:
That could be why we're so
short of developers.
So where to go from here? Are there enough developers interested
in the big picture to end this perennial problem and discuss a
solution for the thousands of Cubase users that dislike MSWindows
(for example)?
Applications like Rosegarden and Ardour and have made huge
progress, but the sad fact is that it is not enough. Can us
audio guys succeed where video, 2d, and 3d graphics have failed?
I'm crazy enough to think that we can.
How can projects attract developers? The main issues that a broad
based project needs to address are:
-flexible architecture with broad, thought-out long term goals.
-language flexibility.
-gui toolkit flexibility.
-high level code documentation.
-personality issues. People need to feel welcome.
These goals are not neccesarily difficult to achieve, and there
is surely great rewards for any project that can pull it off.
I'm willing to contribute my ideas and code to such a framework. In
the meantime, i'll carry on with my own project that is completely
useless to anyone but myself :-)
--
Tim Orford
3:25 p.m.
On 2/27/07, Tim Orford <orford(a)zonnet.nl> wrote:
On Mon, Feb 26, 2007 at 10:33:04PM +0000, Chris Cannam
wrote:
A solution to what problem? What *exactly* is missing from these
applications? I see a lot of people writing off entire apps with
vague complaints like "I don't like it" or "It crashes
sometimes".
Lee
That could be why we're so
short of developers.
So where to go from here? Are there enough developers interested
in the big picture to end this perennial problem and discuss a
solution for the thousands of Cubase users that dislike MSWindows
(for example)?
Applications like Rosegarden and Ardour and have made huge
progress, but the sad fact is that it is not enough. Can us
audio guys succeed where video, 2d, and 3d graphics have failed?
3:28 p.m.
On Tue, 2007-02-27 at 19:16 +0000, Tim Orford wrote:
On Mon, Feb 26, 2007 at 10:33:04PM +0000, Chris Cannam
wrote:
what the hell... you are like people sitting in a train that moves at
high speed discussing how to move forward.
NIKE. you know the rest.
(they have shady business practices, their shoes suck, but at least
their slogan rocks.)
--
Leonard Ritter
-- Freelance Art & Logic
-- http://www.leonard-ritter.com
That could be why we're so
short of developers.
I'm crazy enough to think that we can.
3:43 p.m.
On Tue, 2007-02-27 at 20:28 +0100, Leonard Ritter wrote:
On Tue, 2007-02-27 at 19:16 +0000, Tim Orford wrote:
"You Don't Win Silver — You Lose Gold" ?
=)
--ll
On Mon, Feb 26, 2007 at 10:33:04PM +0000, Chris
Cannam wrote:
what the hell... you are like people sitting in a train that moves at
high speed discussing how to move forward.
NIKE. you know the rest.
(they have shady business practices, their shoes suck, but at least
their slogan rocks.) That could be why we're so
short of developers.
I'm crazy enough to think that we can.
4:20 p.m.
On Tue, 2007-02-27 at 20:42 +0100, Lars Luthman wrote:
"You Don't Win Silver — You Lose Gold" ?
wow that one is horrible. ok, well they USED to have a good one. once.
--
Leonard Ritter
-- Freelance Art & Logic
-- http://www.leonard-ritter.com
3:58 p.m.
On Tue, Feb 27, 2007 at 08:28:16PM +0100, Leonard Ritter wrote:
On Tue, 2007-02-27 at 19:16 +0000, Tim Orford wrote:
We're kind of in different territories. The world of trackers
is quite different to that of mainstream music production
applications.
On Mon, Feb 26, 2007 at 10:33:04PM +0000, Chris
Cannam wrote:
what the hell... you are like people sitting in a train that moves at
high speed discussing how to move forward. That could be why we're so
short of developers.
I'm crazy enough to think that we can.
4:19 p.m.
On Tue, 2007-02-27 at 19:53 +0000, Tim Orford wrote:
We're kind of in different territories. The world
of trackers
is quite different to that of mainstream music production
applications.
you sir, are wrong.
--
Leonard Ritter
-- Freelance Art & Logic
-- http://www.leonard-ritter.com
4:35 p.m.
On Tue, Feb 27, 2007 at 09:19:49PM +0100, Leonard Ritter wrote:
On Tue, 2007-02-27 at 19:53 +0000, Tim Orford wrote:
care to back up anything you say?
Traditionally, trackers are limited applications with non-scalable
architecture catering to a set of niche users.
No one is going to seriously compare the feature set of a tracker
to cubase/logic/protools etc.
What am i missing?
(btw, neuro-die_ewigkeit_schmerzt was a great inspiration to me :-))
--
Tim Orford
We're kind of in different territories. The
world of trackers
is quite different to that of mainstream music production
applications.
you sir, are wrong.
5:02 p.m.
On Tue, 2007-02-27 at 20:33 +0000, Tim Orford wrote:
care to back up anything you say?
Traditionally, trackers are limited applications with non-scalable
architecture catering to a set of niche users.
No one is going to seriously compare the feature set of a tracker
to cubase/logic/protools etc.
you kind of missed the buzz. literally. that application was as close as
it gets in bringing tracker interfaces to the mainstream. fact is that
this interface still remains the most accessible one to people who can
not afford any kind of midi gear, or are starting with making
high-quality electronic music on a computer, and there is a huge
community revolving around it, although the program is dead (because it
was closed-source and its programmer lost all the source code in a hard
disk crash - yes. that hurts. if you ever need an argument for open
source, take this example.) people are still extending and hacking that
app. check the sheer amount of plugins available:
www.buzzmachines.com
if you don't believe me, please check www.paniq.org and listen to some
tracks that i have made. this is no chicken shit.
some examples i consider extraordinary:
http://www.paniq.org/tracks/elektronische_musik
http://www.paniq.org/tracks/die_gewalt_album_version
http://www.paniq.org/tracks/23_is_the_new_42
http://www.paniq.org/tracks/barcode_anxiety (you know this one)
i don't care what you call "niche users". if there is a huge user base,
it's no longer a niche. it's just that this star died before it could
really shine, and aldrin is picking up the torch. you can integrate all
these things to provide something that allows to create extraordinary
works, and if you consider this approach unprofessional, then, honestly,
screw you.
"leonard, i am with you, please do not get me wrong. it's what is
generally understood as professional audio engineering."
and to this argument i have to say that the world is not static, there
is no fixed formula to success, and we redefine and dream up reality all
the time. this, of course, is not achieved by pointless rants like this
one, but by actual results of work, like the kind of stuff that can be
found behind those links above. this work emerged from a disagreement
with the general definition of reality, and contributes to the dream
that we all take part in.
i hope you agree with me. if not, please visit #buzz on efnet, claim
that noone has ever had any big success with the sole use of trackers,
and watch the response.
--
Leonard Ritter
-- Freelance Art & Logic
-- http://www.leonard-ritter.com
5:55 p.m.
On Tue, 2007-02-27 at 22:01 +0100, Leonard Ritter wrote:
i hope you agree with me. if not, please visit #buzz
on efnet, claim
that noone has ever had any big success with the sole use of trackers,
and watch the response.
no. i'd plan to ask how Nora Jones would record her next CD with aldrin.
and then i'd check on the plans of The Fat Boys to use it for their
latest. and it would be worth checking in on the engineers plans for the
live CD that will surely come from the latest Police tour. and if any of
the Fat Five Sopranos-style groups are on the channel, i'll check in how
well aldrin is suiting their recording of some italian opera.
the fact that there was a genre of music in the late 1970's that got by
with ARP sequencers and no drums doesn't stop the fact that by and
large, the vast majority of popular music uses drums.
the fact that there is a genre of music that has sold thousands of
copies of several recordings and was made solely with trackers doesn't
change the fact that by and large the vast majority of popular music is
not and could not be made with a tracker.
--p
6:17 p.m.
I didnt get the point of this discussen and regard it rather worthless
and destructive.
Aldrin is geard toward electronic pattern based music so why blame it
for what it is? Of course its not for the sopranos, I guess the only
electronic thing they need is Protools and some outboard mastering
equipment or software, so this is Ardour.
When some producers of Madonna or Daft Punk would decide they need
Trackers for their latest kick, trackersoftware would be suddenly in
mainstream. And didnt stole Timbaland recently a chiptune/trackertune?
So where start mainstream music production and why are oranges worse
then apples? And why should we care??
Cheers,
Malte
--
Malte Steiner
media art + development
-www.block4.com-
7:12 p.m.
On Tue, 2007-02-27 at 23:19 +0100, Malte Steiner wrote:
I didnt get the point of this discussen and regard it
rather worthless
and destructive.
Aldrin is geard toward electronic pattern based music so why blame it
for what it is? Of course its not for the sopranos, I guess the only
electronic thing they need is Protools and some outboard mastering
equipment or software, so this is Ardour.
tim said: "Traditionally, trackers are limited applications with
non-scalable architecture catering to a set of niche users. No one is
going to seriously compare the feature set of a tracker to
cubase/logic/protools etc."
in response, leonard said: "that noone has ever had any big success with
the sole use of trackers, and watch the response."
i was simply pointing out that this wasn't tim's point at all. he didn't
say "you can't make music with a tracker". he implied that only a very
few musicians make music with trackers, and of them, not many are
particularly successful in terms of making music that other people
listen to.
there's no hatred for trackers - i think the whole concept is very cool.
its just, as tim said, its a limited design that caters to a niche set
of users. nothing wrong with that at all.
--p
7:53 p.m.
so we wont see 5 chant machines/plugins in Aldrin, singing
professionally, controlled by the tracker? :)
My hopes were so high...
But seriously, jumping in for AMS would be considerable. I like its
sound and all, can even deal with the brownish color (Moog again?) but
yet there is some reason why I not use it that much.
About modularity, rejecting the plugin idea does not mean rejecting
modularity. I meant the complete opposite, Alsamidi and Jack makes it so
easy to plug different applications, that plugins are not so necessary
anymore. With Lash we can hopefully soon complete recall a setup.
Although I noticed the benefit having all in one application for
recalling by loading, -lets say-, a song.
Cheers,
Malte
--
Malte Steiner
media art + development
-www.block4.com-
8:19 p.m.
On Wed, 2007-02-28 at 00:41 +0100, Malte Steiner wrote:
so we wont see 5 chant machines/plugins in Aldrin,
singing
professionally, controlled by the tracker? :)
My hopes were so high...
But seriously, jumping in for AMS would be considerable. I like its
sound and all, can even deal with the brownish color (Moog again?) but
yet there is some reason why I not use it that much.
About modularity, rejecting the plugin idea does not mean rejecting
modularity. I meant the complete opposite, Alsamidi and Jack makes it so
easy to plug different applications, that plugins are not so necessary
anymore. With Lash we can hopefully soon complete recall a setup.
JACK isn't really suited for doing modular type things - there is a
fixed number of ports you can use (which is rather low by default) and
doing a context switch for every ugen will get rather expensive. Same
goes for the ALSA sequencer or any IPC-based routing system. JACK is
great for connecting a couple of clients, but building a large modular
synth patch from JACK clients isn't the best way.
--ll
8:43 p.m.
JACK isn't really suited for doing modular type things - there is a
fixed number of ports you can use (which is rather low by default) and
doing a context switch for every ugen will get rather expensive. Same
goes for the ALSA sequencer or any IPC-based routing system. JACK is
great for connecting a couple of clients, but building a large modular
synth patch from JACK clients isn't the best way.
I made myself not clear enough, I meant modularity as in studio
(connecting blackboxes together in a mixing desk and to a sequencer),
not modular synthesizer (connecting many many blackboxes to create a
sound). I have some reservations plugging in whole synthesizers inside a
sequencer application, but it might be just me. On the other hand I
perform life with laptop so total recall is even more an issue than in
studio situation. At the moment I am happy with seq24 connected to pd,
maybe with another synth or even a jackxmms just in case something crashes.
So many ways, freedom of choice makes me dizzy :)
Cheers,
Malte
--
Malte Steiner
media art + development
-www.block4.com-
8:27 p.m.
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Malte Steiner schrieb:
But seriously, jumping in for AMS would be considerable.
:-) supercool
I like its
sound and all, can even deal with the brownish color (Moog again?)
the colors are configurable - I set mine to dark-silver
About modularity, rejecting the plugin idea does not
mean rejecting
modularity. I meant the complete opposite, Alsamidi and Jack makes it so
easy to plug different applications, that plugins are not so necessary
anymore. With Lash we can hopefully soon complete recall a setup.
Although I noticed the benefit having all in one application for
recalling by loading, -lets say-, a song.
to me it does not look as if LASH will do such tricks exactly soon.
Witch is a shame too - LASH could solve a lot of problems but to me it
looks like it will not be ready for prime time in the near future...
(I would be very happy, if someone can correct this impression of mine...)
best regards
HZN
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8:59 p.m.
On Wed, 2007-02-28 at 01:27 +0100, Hartmut Noack wrote:
Malte Steiner schrieb:
With Lash we can hopefully soon complete recall a setup.
LASH does such things pretty well. The problem is that hardly anybody
seems to think that inter-process total recall is useful enough to add
support for it in their own software.
--ll
Although I noticed the benefit having all in one
application for
recalling by loading, -lets say-, a song.
to me it does not look as if LASH will do such tricks exactly soon.
Witch is a shame too - LASH could solve a lot of problems but to me it
looks like it will not be ready for prime time in the near future...
(I would be very happy, if someone can correct this impression of mine...) 
8:27 p.m.
New subject: [linux-audio-user] [OT] electronic tools in music making (was: ANN: JOST, a simple host for native VST)
Both points are valuable : we (LAU) need electronic means of recording
and mixing sounds, and ardour undoubtedly is The Thing is this area.
And, this is an "and", we also could use new tools to give birth to new
soundscapes for us to improvise/think/let go/play/invent/compose/puke
so that we (LAU) can achieve what is on our minds (and what isn't
beforehand) to make that kind of spicy noise we're proud calling
"music".
Ardour is the central tool i'd use for this. I can't use a tracker but
this is just me. I testify that others can. My own pleasure would be
to get the most out of a guitar take with ardour but I can imagine
(Squarepusher anyone ?) other means of spitting out great ear pleasing
noise with very different tools.
Flames are needed sometimes, keep them coming if you feel like it. As a
LAU, I'd like to thank you all. Keep on coding, you're the best, all of
you ! Paul is getting my special chocolate medal but still ... :)
Sorry for the "everyone-likes-everyone" opinion but it's meant
to be sincere ;)
--
David
7:40 p.m.
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Paul Davis schrieb:
On Tue, 2007-02-27 at 22:01 +0100, Leonard Ritter
wrote:
> i hope you agree with me. if not, please visit #buzz on efnet, claim
> that noone has ever had any big success with the sole use of trackers,
> and watch the response.
the vast majority of popular music is
not and could not be made with a tracker.
of course not and I doubt, that trackers are intend to do such tricks as
recording a drumkit and having a 50 takes-session with a guitarplayer.
I see such things as a kind of instruments such as hardware-keyboards or
sequencers - gear to create sounds, that can be used to be imported
to/recorded with ardour to be tracks the same as guitartracks or
drumtracks are.
And in fact: most music, people listen to on this planet, could be
recorded without any sequencersoftware at all by using the basic means
of a dedicated hd-recorder.
HZN
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9:56 p.m.
Hartmut Noack wrote:
And in fact: most music, people listen to on this
planet, could be
recorded without any sequencersoftware at all by using the basic means
of a dedicated hd-recorder.
And in fact: most music people listen to on this planet could be
recorded without any participation at all by a computer. As it had been
done for a good long while before computers arrived. ;-)
--
David
gnome(a)hawaii.rr.com
authenticity, honesty, community
6:37 p.m.
On Tue, Feb 27, 2007 at 10:01:41PM +0100, Leonard Ritter wrote:
some examples i consider extraordinary:
thanks for the links, i enjoyed listening to the tracks, though
i think your graphical work is more 'extraordinary'.
These tracks all have a typical tracker sound. To many ears
they could do with being mixed. Personally, i like the raw
tracker sound, but it comes over much better when you distribute
the actual module, not a compromised mp3.
works, and if you consider this approach
unprofessional, then, honestly,
screw you.
Not trying to win friends then :-)
Seriously, slagging off pros makes it look like you have an
inferiority complex. I specifically mentioned Cubase to try and
convey some frame of reference. Although it is used by pro's it
is not primarily a pro application.
But to try and bring this vaguely back on topic, my personal vision
would be to have a versatile framework that allowed someone
like yourself to quickly create a cool tracker style editor
(for example) so that everyone would get the benefit of this
mode of creating, but not be limited by it. Its not my intention
to try and lock people into old ways of working, its just that there
are some features that established applications provide, that some
people have to have as a _starting_ point. You have made it clear
that that is not way you want to work, and that is fine by me:-)
cheers
--
Tim Orford
28 Feb
28 Feb
5:52 a.m.
On Tue, 2007-02-27 at 20:33 +0000, Tim Orford wrote:
on the subject of trackers, I was surprised to find out that venetian
snares uses em:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zGK-EzEa45U&eurl=
cheers,
dave
care to back up anything you say?
Traditionally, trackers are limited applications with non-scalable
architecture catering to a set of niche users.
No one is going to seriously compare the feature set of a tracker
to cubase/logic/protools etc.
you kind of missed the buzz.
6:11 a.m.
On Wed, 2007-02-28 at 09:52 +0000, Dave Griffiths wrote:
on the subject of trackers, I was surprised to find
out that venetian
snares uses em:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zGK-EzEa45U&eurl=
yes indeed. and a few others. it's just another kind of musical
instrument and compositional workflow.
--
Leonard Ritter
-- Freelance Art & Logic
-- http://www.leonard-ritter.com
6:32 a.m.
On Wed, 28 Feb 2007 09:52:11 -0000 (GMT), "Dave Griffiths"
<dave(a)pawfal.org> said:
Which release is this track on? I only have "Doll Doll Doll", which
totally rocks the house IMHO.
Nils
--
==================================
nils(a)nilswinkler.com
On Tue,
2007-02-27 at 20:33 +0000, Tim Orford wrote:
on the subject of trackers, I was surprised to find out that venetian
snares uses em:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zGK-EzEa45U&eurl= care to back up anything you say?
Traditionally, trackers are limited applications with non-scalable
architecture catering to a set of niche users.
No one is going to seriously compare the feature set of a tracker
to cubase/logic/protools etc.
you kind of missed the buzz.
7:20 a.m.
On Wed, 28 Feb 2007 09:52:11 -0000 (GMT), "Dave Griffiths"
<dave(a)pawfal.org> said:
Which release is this track on? I only have "Doll Doll Doll", which
totally rocks the house IMHO.
"Cavalcade Of Glee & Dadaist Happy Hardcore Pom Poms"
http://www.boomkat.com/item.cfm?id=21713
cheers,
dave
On Tue,
2007-02-27 at 20:33 +0000, Tim Orford wrote:
on the subject of trackers, I was surprised to find out that venetian
snares uses em:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zGK-EzEa45U&eurl= care to back up anything you say?
Traditionally, trackers are limited applications with non-scalable
architecture catering to a set of niche users.
No one is going to seriously compare the feature set of a tracker
to cubase/logic/protools etc.
you kind of missed the buzz. 
27 Feb
27 Feb
5:04 p.m.
On Di, 27.02.07 19:53 Tim Orford <tim(a)orford.org> wrote:
On Tue, Feb 27, 2007 at 08:28:16PM +0100, Leonard
Ritter wrote:
Is that what you mean with people like me, who have no idea how Aldrin
should work (never used a tracker, i just don't get them, and i don't
want to), wonder about what that FX channel selector in LMMS is for,
if there is no FX bank (in FL studio that holds a bunch of VSTs :D)?
MusE is cool, I can handle that, it's like Cubase. Rosegarden locks my
X server since version Rosegarden3indunnoanymore, and trying to debug
that didn't find any interest on their mailing list. Anyways those are
as good for loop sequencing as a having piano for playing guitar.
Ardour2 doesn't fit on my 1024x768 display, but that can't do
sequencing anyway
Who was the one here talking about AbletonLive4Linux? I would so much
own you beers and whatnot. I so often feel like booting into that
piratically equiped OS on hda1 that needs a driver cd to recognize my
cherry keyboard, just to use Ableton, and the cubase mixer.
This even keeps me off making music, really. I've been DJing a lot, and
I love loops, samples, FX, beats etc, and always feel like "this must be
ready to do a liveset with it" when I make sound, and in the end, there
is Ableton to do such.
Wired looked sooo promising.. I almost fell off my chair when they
released 0.1, it's 0.4 now, and that damn thing still crashes after
adding two samples as midi tracks, and that portaudio crap causes some
strange crackling, I hate it.
So my goal is: loop sequencing, samples, combined with drum and other
synths, all all that with a big bunch of effects - in a fashion that I
could take my box on stage - ready to rumble
For now I tried a gazillion apps in the last years, and now it's time
to credit
- MusE: it rocks, esp if you know and like Cubase
- hydrogen: very cool, just getting drumkits done is WAY too
complicated
- ZynAddSubFX: one thing that can produce sounds somewhat close to
Absynth (yeah Absynth, I miss it too)
- jackrack, jamin etc
Those are great, but not for live electronic stuff.
Ableton!
OK, now enough of my useless whining, I just had to let out a ~four
year old pain. I switched to Linux, never returned to Windows, and
well, I gave up Ableton (version 1.x that time) and tried to find
something suitable on Linux.. failed. No Linux-made self-done
low-budget livesets. I even forgot about it, this discussion just
brought it back.
Sorry for that OT noise.
PS: why is it that me/everyone/lot of others compare some Linux app to
something they know from "old windows times"?
On Tue, 2007-02-27 at 19:16 +0000, Tim Orford
wrote:
We're kind of in different territories. The world of trackers
is quite different to that of mainstream music production
applications. On Mon, Feb 26, 2007 at 10:33:04PM +0000, Chris
Cannam wrote:
what the hell... you are like people sitting in a train that moves
at high speed discussing how to move forward. That could be why we're so
short of developers.
I'm crazy enough to think that we can.
9:51 p.m.
Thomas Kuther wrote:
PS: why is it that me/everyone/lot of others compare
some Linux app to
something they know from "old windows times"?
Sorry, my favorite synthesizers predate Windows by about 20 years. Does
Linux have a synthesizer that could be driven by a MIDI controller
device that duplicates a real Moog synthesizer?
--
David
gnome(a)hawaii.rr.com
authenticity, honesty, community
28 Feb
28 Feb
4:52 a.m.
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david schrieb:
Thomas Kuther wrote:
Does
Linux have a synthesizer that could be driven by a MIDI controller
device that duplicates a real Moog synthesizer?
ams has a settings-dialogue called "control-center" in witch you can
bind any signal from any MIDI-controller to any parameter of the synth.
AFAIK, Mathias Nagorni (the author of ams) had Moogs in mind when he
started writing and though ams is capable of some more then Moogs now,
there should be no major problem to make up a patch, that has the
features of one and to bind its parameters to your controller...
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3:42 p.m.
Hartmut Noack wrote:
david schrieb:
Thanks - that sounds good. Now if I can only get AMS to run.
--
David
gnome(a)hawaii.rr.com
authenticity, honesty, community
Does
Linux have a synthesizer that could be driven by a MIDI controller
device that duplicates a real Moog synthesizer?
ams has a settings-dialogue called "control-center" in witch you can
bind any signal from any MIDI-controller to any parameter of the synth.
AFAIK, Mathias Nagorni (the author of ams) had Moogs in mind when he
started writing and though ams is capable of some more then Moogs now,
there should be no major problem to make up a patch, that has the
features of one and to bind its parameters to your controller...
26 Feb
26 Feb
1:20 p.m.
On Mon, 2007-02-26 at 17:25 +0100, Ketil Thorgersen wrote:
This seem to me a very strange post! Why this
frustration! Here this guy
is actually trying to improve what he (and probably others) figures is a
problem within the world of linux. So he begins to write a program to
fix it instead of moaning about it. And then he announces it - only to
get bashed by one of the key figures in the linux audio world. Strange!
considering pauls previous posts and his decision to close down his
website, i attest a severely low serotonine level, which causes a
perception that i like to call the dark glasses (they filter out
positive aspects), resulting in a depressive mood that is caused by
observations made through these dark glasses.
IANAD, however i recommend ingestion of spirit-lifting substances, may
it be through consummation of literature, music or movie material, or,
at severe cases, through meditation or intoxication with chemicals of
psychedelic nature - whatever preferred and felt to be helpful. taking a
long walk without any special goal in mind also helps to clear the
senses.
if my diagnosis happens to be wrong and nonetheless, paul feels balanced
and at peace with the world, i suggest changing the writing style, so
that a serious, perhaps depressing statement is being followed by a
humorous, uplifting one. this way everybody will feel contempt and
understand that things are being taken care of... by somebody else.
no wait, that came out all wrong!
i can't remember a single case in history where bitching and moaning had
motivated and inspired others to do something creative except bitch and
moan more creatively. however, i loathe VST with full intensity, mostly
because it's a shitty implementation. i expect nothing of importance
coming through these channels, and even if it did, i suppose it will
suck a lot. and if it doesn't suck: great for them! i did not change
platforms to have the golden cage follow me.
LV2 is to VST what the boston tea party was to the british empire. we
have the technologies and the interfaces, now go clone that win32/osx
portfolio some more. there is no cheap shortcut such as sneaking vst
emulation through the back door. you have your own country, you have
your own infrastructure. pwn them bitches, and then pwn them some more.
keep it 31337,
--
Leonard Ritter
-- Freelance Art & Logic
-- http://www.leonard-ritter.com
3:26 p.m.
shit.
for some weird reason my brain seems to have melted paul davis and dave
phillips into one single entity, paul dave phillips.
please forgive me. the text does therefore not apply to any of you.
On Mon, 2007-02-26 at 18:19 +0100, Leonard Ritter wrote:
considering pauls previous posts and his decision to
close down his
website, i attest a severely low serotonine level, which causes a
perception that i like to call the dark glasses (they filter out
positive aspects), resulting in a depressive mood that is caused by
observations made through these dark glasses.
--
Leonard Ritter
-- Freelance Art & Logic
-- http://www.leonard-ritter.com
12:55 p.m.
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Paul Davis schrieb:
The named VST on Linux Projects (FST, DSSI-VST etc) work quite well for
now but are far from being perfect - so helping to make things better,
that exist already would be most appreciated. Some more interesting
opportunities to invest talent, time and effort?
Here we go:
LASH: http://www.nongnu.org/lash/
very important, extremely sexy, last news from 2006/10/08
ReZound: http://sourceforge.net/projects/rezound
most powerfull, jackaware, destructive waveeditor that can be used
whithout lerning a programminglanguage. Is being ported to QT4 at the
moment by his sole developer, Davy Durham, who has expressed lately,
that he would not have any problems to accept some collaboration.
LADSPA: http://www.ladspa.org/ and LV2: http://lv2plug.in/
nice pluginsystem free licence, could need some help also.
This List could go on and on and on.
If Lucio really wants to be involved in something like tractor, there
are Muse, Rosegarden and even QTactor to be involved in. Or try to help
making Wired do something usable.
But nobody really needs a Tractor-like app being coded from scratch.
On Mon, 2007-02-26 at 14:18 +0100, Michael Bohle
wrote:
> Lucio decided to make an
...
small host
JOST (Jack hOST) to a instrumentrack with basic sequencer
functions. Later he will build up a full sequencer named "Juggler", which
should be near to the commercial Tracktion. (JUCE is the framework behind
Tracktion1)
there are already a few JACK-aware VST hosting sequencers/DAWs. there
is
already DSSI. there is already a DSSI-VST bridge. there is already a
run-VST-plugin-as-JACK-client host. what do you actually think is gained
by starting up yet another project to do this? mike said that he
didn't have to guts to ask "Does anyone ever think that maybe there are
too many projects?". he did raise the idea that it would be really good
for *everyone* if people would give some of their attention to other
projects periodically. i plead guilty to not doing this, its true.
I am astonished also how little the interest for the whole scene is
among some people - free software means cooperation its a concept to
surpass strategies like "me on my own have to fight for survival".
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4:13 p.m.
On Mon, Feb 26, 2007 at 09:33:09AM -0500, Paul Davis wrote:
On Mon, 2007-02-26 at 14:18 +0100, Michael Bohle
wrote:
Did you take a look at the site? He has already got VSTGUI
working on X11.. and is going through plugins at quite a rate
porting them over.. I would say it is pretty impressive, and I
for one would much prefer native VSTs on Linux than trying to
work with libfst...
Maybe it would be better if he was porting the VSTs to LADSPA
plugins, but I really don't know how feasible this would be..
More choice is better IMHO.
The "new traction" thing seems a bit overblown to me.. From the
website it seems he hacked together a host for native linux VSTs
in 30 mins.. no mention of where it is going.
James
Hi there,
The italian DJ and Developer Lucio Asnaghi has made a first preview of simple
host for native VST on Linux. Native VST for Linux was founded first by
native VST for linux has yet to produce anything concrete at all,
AFAICT. developers of VST plugins are *not* writing plugins for linux.
if you wanted to make native VST on linux easier, the sensible thing to
do is to implement VSTGUI on top of X11 and/or one or more contemporary
toolkits.
5:50 p.m.
Hello Paul,
native VST for linux has yet to produce anything
concrete at all,
AFAICT. developers of VST plugins are *not* writing plugins for linux.
if you wanted to make native VST on linux easier, the sensible thing to
do is to implement VSTGUI on top of X11 and/or one or more contemporary
toolkits.
Native VST on Linux is real! it works and needed 3 mounth (Dec, 1st was the
first release of EnergyXT2/Linux)for around 50 plugins - Lucio is the one who
made the first VSTgui working on Linux! See his website.
if the "best native Linux VST plugins for
testing" are the MDA plugins,
then i would have to say that this hasn't accomplished a lot.
JOST is a fast hacked try, only for demonstrating that JACK and JUCE will work
together well. So JOST did't support GUI'd VSTs now, and some VSTs from
Jorgen Aase are making probs. I had recommend the mda suite for maximal
success if someone want to try it. I'm surer later any native Linux VST will
work there in a kind of modular environment. But for now it is only a first
preview.
really. fascinating. and just how long do you imagine this might take?
how long do you think traktion took to create? how many people do you
think work on Traktion at the moment?
Well Tracktion 1 and the JUCE framework was developed by one person, Julian
Storer. He made Tracktion because he was not able to use the well known
sequecenrs so he started to make a own one. He was also the successor of this
sequencer. Later Mackie bought Tracktion, but Julian made sure, the framework
he made for creating Tracktion stays opensource. A year ago I asking Julian
about a Tracktion for Linux, he was open for this idea but like you he said
that audio linux is crap - he didn't realise the potential of JACK.
But now we have a clear demonstration, JUCE and JACK fits and I'm sure, there
will be more in a short time coming up from italy. Not to high expectations,
please, but i think the JUCE make things much easier for devs. I'm sure
Julian Storer will help activly, he do allready with his juceforum.
there are already a few JACK-aware VST hosting sequencers/DAWs. there is
already DSSI. there is already a DSSI-VST bridge. there is already a
run-VST-plugin-as-JACK-client host. what do you actually think is gained
by starting up yet another project to do this?
I like Ardour and work with this great piece of software everyday, but there
is no midisequencer actually implented. And the VST- FST Wine connection is
not really on a stable fundament. I think native VSTs are a better choice.
So I'm still looking for a stable Audio/Midisequencer (No, the well-known
linux sequencers are no option for me - I was giving up because of too much
crashes midest a song I working on), so energyXT2 (stable, easy to use,
productive, creative) goes a bit in this direction, but as i said, the
communication with Jorgen is not so easy - so I think it is important to have
a free host for native LinuxVST -also as a demonstration for other developers
that native VST is works on Linux.
mike taht told me a cute story of how he spoke at a conference somewhere
and asked everyone in the room how many of them had their own projects
going on. Everyone in the room raised their hands. mike said that he
didn't have to guts to ask "Does anyone ever think that maybe there are
too many projects?". he did raise the idea that it would be really good
for *everyone* if people would give some of their attention to other
projects periodically. i plead guilty to not doing this, its true.
Yes the creation is strange and divine -so much different lifeforms and they
all have a place and a home.
Regards,
Michael
--
.:www.jacklab.net:.
ProAudio for openSUSE Linux
6:07 p.m.
On Monday 26 Feb 2007 22:45, Michael Bohle wrote:
A year ago I asking Julian about a Tracktion for
Linux,
he was open for this idea but like you he said that audio linux is
crap - he didn't realise the potential of JACK.
FWIW I had much the same conversation with him at Sounds Expo in
February (or whenever it was) 2005.
He's clever, but diffident. Or clever and diffident. Hell, in his
position, I probably wouldn't bother either.
Chris
27 Feb
27 Feb
4:14 a.m.
On Mon, 2007-02-26 at 23:45 +0100, Michael Bohle wrote:
100% acknowledged.
--
Leonard Ritter
-- Freelance Art & Logic
-- http://www.leonard-ritter.com
mike taht told
me a cute story of how he spoke at a conference
somewhere
and asked everyone in the room how many of them
had their own
projects
going on. Everyone in the room raised their
hands. mike said that he
didn't have to guts to ask "Does anyone ever think that maybe there
are
too many projects?". he did raise the idea
that it would be really
good
for *everyone* if people would give some of their
attention to other
projects periodically. i plead guilty to not doing this, its true.
Yes the creation is strange and divine -so much different lifeforms
and they
all have a place and a home.
26 Feb
26 Feb
6:02 p.m.
On Monday 26 Feb 2007 14:33, Paul Davis wrote:
if you wanted to make native VST on linux easier, the
sensible
thing to do is to implement VSTGUI on top of X11 and/or one or more
contemporary toolkits.
My impression was that that was the goal.
The only substantial problem I have with this is the licensing one.
I didn't come to Linux to get away from Windows applications, but I have
always been glad to be rid of an environment in which the most usual
way to get hold of binaries is to copy them illegally. But here the
author and users of a proprietary application are pushing a plugin API
for which neither plugins nor hosts can legally be distributed under
the GPL as binaries -- that is, as useful plugins. Since most of the
plugins available for porting to Linux are only available because they
are GPL'd, the result is a set of plugins that will probably be
distributed as binaries but that most users will not be using
legitimately. I don't like that. But none of that is Jorgen's fault.
If the licensing problem could be solved, either through pressure on
Yamaha or by a clean-room reverse engineering effort, then practically
speaking the native VST effort would only have advantages. VST is an
ugly and badly documented API, but it's widely known and more complete
than any current Linux alternative. If existing GPL'd hosts could
provide native VST support, they could also in some cases provide
better Win32 VST support than they do now, using a LinVST-WinVST bridge
akin to dssi-vst (since there are various things in VST that can't be
done using dssi-vst). Hobbyists are thus encouraged to enter into the
various Linux development models, and the medium term net result for
users is good.
If the licensing problem can't be solved, then we have possibly the
first genuinely credible likelihood of users becoming locked in to
proprietary audio applications on Linux. Those of us who like to waste
our time on free software applications for which there's essentially no
commercial market can feel bitter, envious and/or resentful about this,
but it's a bad thing for users as well, and in the long term a very bad
thing for Linux because it erodes any reason to prefer Linux in the
first place.
Chris
9:48 p.m.
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Michael Bohle schrieb:
Hi there,
It shall be released in March under an open licence. He will build up this
small host JOST
I just checked JOST with the MDA-Plugins and I must say: the thing works
just great! Much better then FST with .dll-Plugins in terms of stability
and performance
Still there is no need for another sequencer-project on Linux - it would
be really great if such a talented coder could join Muse, Rosegarden or
help making LASH usable...
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27 Feb
27 Feb
4:24 a.m.
On Tue, 2007-02-27 at 02:48 +0100, Hartmut Noack wrote:
Still there is no need for another sequencer-project
on Linux - it would
be really great if such a talented coder could join Muse, Rosegarden or
help making LASH usable...
both are KDE-projects and hence appear a bit ugly, and this fact won't
change. yes yes, superficial reasoning, but KDE is really unattractive.
--
Leonard Ritter
-- Freelance Art & Logic
-- http://www.leonard-ritter.com
5:24 a.m.
On Di, 27.02.07 09:24 Leonard Ritter <contact(a)leonard-ritter.com> wrote:
On Tue, 2007-02-27 at 02:48 +0100, Hartmut Noack
wrote:
I'd say that all of them, KDE, MusE and Rosegarden are Qt apps.
And if I got that right around IRC, Lucio is not really a fan of Qt.
But he is a big fan of JUCE, using twindy [1], coding JUCE stuff
[2][3]... why tell him to join some Qt-based projects? To me that
sounds like telling the guys that coded Gnomebaker why the hell they
didn't better go and help making K3b perfect.
And indeed JUCE looks great and works great, just look at Lucio's
and Niall Moody's stuff, or that cool app called Mammut [4] recently
announced here on the list - or Tracktion :)
Tom
[1] http://www.niallmoody.com/twindy/index.htm
[2] http://www.anticore.org/juce/angeljuice/
[3] http://www.anticore.org/jucetice/
[4] http://www.notam02.no/arkiv/doc/mammut/
Still there is no need for another
sequencer-project on Linux - it
would be really great if such a talented coder could join Muse,
Rosegarden or help making LASH usable...
both are KDE-projects and hence appear a bit ugly, and this fact won't
change. yes yes, superficial reasoning, but KDE is really
unattractive.
8:20 a.m.
Thomas Kuther wrote:
And indeed JUCE looks great and works great, just look
at Lucio's
and Niall Moody's stuff, or that cool app called Mammut [4] recently
announced here on the list - or Tracktion :)
I'll add an "Amen!" to that. The new GUI for Mammut is impressive,
I'd
love to see more Linux audio apps use the JUCE framework.
Re: needing/wanting VST for Linux : Some folks do, some don't, some
will, some won't. I say it's better to have it than not, and I have no
objection to the existence of JOST or any other such utility. If the
developers want to work on their project without engaging in other
similar projects, that's their prerogative. If nothing else, maybe it
will kick some similar projects into a higher gear. A little competition
here won't necessarily hurt.
Best,
dp
2:25 p.m.
New subject: [linux-audio-user] ANN: JOST, a simple host for native VST - juce and gui theming
On Tue, Feb 27, 2007 at 07:39:51AM -0500, Dave Phillips wrote:
I'll add an "Amen!" to that. The new GUI for Mammut is impressive, I'd
love to see more Linux audio apps use the JUCE framework.
A few people have been saying nice things about JUCE gui toolkit recently,
but I must somehow be missing its attractions.
What gui problems does this toolkit solve? I can imagine that it is simpler
to program for, but at what cost?
If an application has any pretension to actually having any users, it
needs to respect the ui choices of the user, and utilise the system theme(s)
she has chosen. There is a place for one-off custom gui's, and i think
plugins is a good example - their multiplicity increasing the need
for decorative and spacial memory aids - but for the majority of
applications, consistency is important. This is especially true when
the developer has no access to graphical design talent.
The only long term solution is to implement the look of a program
in the theme engine. The major gui toolkits are 100% themeable
(certainly for gtk anyway and probably for kde too). There is a
slight set-up cost, but simply looking at clearlooks_draw.c for
example, makes it clear what to do.
Audio applications do have some unusual widgets - i'm particularly
thinking of rotary knobs and mixer faders - that complicate the issue,
but I think there is some simple standardisation that can be
done here, so that applications dont have to reinvent the wheel.
It is however regrettable that there is not a better choice of available
themes to choice from, but i dont believe this lack is due to
any technical reasons.
4:55 p.m.
New subject: [linux-audio-user] ANN: JOST, a simple host for native VST - juce and gui theming
I am a developer and I will jump in on some projects to help Linux
Audio. But also do some of my own projects, I feel the need of realtime
synths, either plugin or standalone. I have not decided yet to create
DSSI or application, as someone mentionend before, the plugin idea is
something from the closed source world which not applys to Linux.
BTW what is the state of the wired sequencer? I never got time to check
it out but it looks promising. I like Rosegarden but it takes to much
screen estate in my opinion, something which is common for Linux
applications, or is my computer configured wrong? For instance several
things in the otherwise splendid videoeditor Cinelerra annoys me a bit
so I try to get into it. It wastes screen estate too, in comparison with
Final Cut Pro, which I bought some years ago and which I am about to
replace with Cinelerra, offers me more information and tracks in the
same resolution.
I dont see the need for VSTs and VSTis so badly as others do. For sure
there are 100s VSTis out there but can't they boiled down to, lets say,
5 who sounds different? I see many TB303 simulations and many Poly
Subtractive synths, mostly constructed with SynthEdit and the build-in
modules. Dont we have enough TB303s already in the repos?
Audio applications do have some unusual widgets - i'm particularly
thinking of rotary knobs and mixer faders - that complicate the issue,
but I think there is some simple standardisation that can be
done here, so that applications dont have to reinvent the wheel.
In my opinion we shouldnt recreate the interfaces of the well known
closed applications without questioning it. I dont think for example
rotary knobs is the most desirable in usability. And a virtual synth
doesnt sound like a Moog when it looks like one, something which should
Arturia learn. I dont want to look on a image of a Moog and tickle its
knobs with the mouse, this is not the way I would like to create music
in the future. There should be some more intuitive interfaces which make
more fun and without the need to sell something in an oversaturated
market, there is no need for emulate the glitz of the closed buiz.
On CDM I read that Apple come out with something new as Logic replace
and I guess they put some new ideas into the old sequencer paradigma.
Ableton did some evolutionary work too (I would not call it revolution)
and I dont mean a new skin.
Issues I would be happy to discuss soon in Berlin.
Cheers,
Malte
--
Malte Steiner
media art + development
-www.block4.com-
7:23 p.m.
New subject: [linux-audio-user] ANN: JOST, a simple host for native VST - juce and gui theming
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Malte Steiner schrieb:
I am a developer and I will jump in on some projects
to help Linux
Audio. But also do some of my own projects, I feel the need of realtime
synths, either plugin or standalone.
Great! Thank you! Could you also have a look at ams?:
http://alsamodular.sourceforge.net/
this is one great powerfull realtimesynth and it needs a maintainer
desperately - you might even fork it, but to loose this one entirely
would be a major shame...
I have not decided yet to create
DSSI or application, as someone mentionend before, the plugin idea is
something from the closed source world which not applys to Linux.
??? Modularity is one of the fundamental principles of UNIX since day
one - a pluginsystem like DSSI or LADSPA has the one great advantage
above standalone-apps that patches and combinations of plugins can
easily be stored in the hosts projectfile so you get the one thing, that
is really one of the biggest drawbacks for Linuxaudio: total recall...
BTW what is the state of the wired sequencer? I never got time to check
it out but it looks promising.
It LOOKS great indeed, but even lmms does much better for me. Not very
stable hard to install, not as many oppotunities as one would wish - has
got a long way to go to get to the point, Muse offers since 2-3 years.
In my opinion we shouldnt recreate the interfaces of
the well known
closed applications without questioning it.
To a certain point I agree with chris cannam on this: to clone a
wellknown proprietary app just for the sake to clone/rival it is
pointless. Why not use the freedom to do something, that is exactly as
one wants it and thus not bound to resemble known schemes but to provide
something as good as possible.
Issues I would be happy to discuss soon in Berlin.
Yeah!! Let us do that! :-) I'll be there all 4 days and intend to have
some party saturday night :-)
see you all
Hartmut Noack
http://linuxuse.de
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9:43 p.m.
New subject: [linux-audio-user] ANN: JOST, a simple host for native VST - juce and gui theming
Hartmut Noack wrote:
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Malte Steiner schrieb:
I installed v1.1.0 from Debian repository and tried to run it. I get the
following:
david@eurolap:~$ amsynth
amSynth 1.1.0
Copyright 2001-2004 Nick Dowell and others.
amSynth comes with ABSOLUTELY NO WARRANTY
This is free software, and you are welcome to redistribute it
under certain conditions; see the file COPYING for details
ALSA: cannot open audio device hw:0
amSynth.bin: pcm.c:695: snd_pcm_close: Assertion `pcm' failed.
/usr/bin/amsynth: line 61: 3861 Aborted
$BINDIR/amSynth.bin $*
********** there was an error! **********
please check your config in ~/.amSynthrc
I lessed through that file but don't see what might be wrong. Whatever's
there is whatever the package installation put there ...
My system plays PCM files just fine.
--
David
gnome(a)hawaii.rr.com
authenticity, honesty, community
I am a developer and I will jump in on some
projects to help Linux
Audio. But also do some of my own projects, I feel the need of realtime
synths, either plugin or standalone.
Great! Thank you! Could you also have a look at ams?:
http://alsamodular.sourceforge.net/
this is one great powerfull realtimesynth and it needs a maintainer
desperately - you might even fork it, but to loose this one entirely
would be a major shame... 
28 Feb
28 Feb
12:30 a.m.
New subject: [linux-audio-user] ANN: JOST, a simple host for native VST - juce and gui theming
On 2/28/07, david <gnome(a)hawaii.rr.com> wrote:
I installed v1.1.0 from Debian repository and tried to
run it. I get the
following:
david@eurolap:~$ amsynth
amSynth 1.1.0
Copyright 2001-2004 Nick Dowell and others.
amSynth comes with ABSOLUTELY NO WARRANTY
This is free software, and you are welcome to redistribute it
under certain conditions; see the file COPYING for details
ALSA: cannot open audio device hw:0
amSynth.bin: pcm.c:695: snd_pcm_close: Assertion `pcm' failed.
/usr/bin/amsynth: line 61: 3861 Aborted
$BINDIR/amSynth.bin $*
It appears that you have installed amSynth, which is located here:
http://amsynthe.sourceforge.net/amSynth/
I think the OP was referring to ams. Try apt-get install ams and you
should get the package that was being referenced.
And yes, I will personally worship whoever takes on ams and brings it
up to modern glory. :)
--
Josh Lawrence
http://www.hardbop200.com
3:10 a.m.
New subject: [linux-audio-user] ANN: JOST, a simple host for native VST - juce and gui theming
Josh Lawrence wrote:
On 2/28/07, david <gnome(a)hawaii.rr.com> wrote:
I just grabbed it from my Debian repository, so it's probably not a
current version.
I installed v1.1.0 from Debian repository and
tried to run it. I get the
following:
david@eurolap:~$ amsynth
amSynth 1.1.0
Copyright 2001-2004 Nick Dowell and others.
amSynth comes with ABSOLUTELY NO WARRANTY
This is free software, and you are welcome to redistribute it
under certain conditions; see the file COPYING for details
ALSA: cannot open audio device hw:0
amSynth.bin: pcm.c:695: snd_pcm_close: Assertion `pcm' failed.
/usr/bin/amsynth: line 61: 3861 Aborted
$BINDIR/amSynth.bin $*
It appears that you have installed amSynth, which is located here:
http://amsynthe.sourceforge.net/amSynth/ I think the OP was referring to ams. Try apt-get
install ams and you
should get the package that was being referenced.
And yes, I will personally worship whoever takes on ams and brings it
up to modern glory. :)
OK, installing ams to see what it's like. Although I would still like
amSynth to work, too. It sounds like fun ... well, bummer, that one
tells me:
david@eurolap:~$ ams
LADSPA_PATH: /usr/lib/ladspa
loadPath: , savePath:
Preset path now /usr/share/doc/ams/demos
Alsa_driver: Cannot open PCM device plughw:0,0 for playback.
Alsa_driver: Cannot open PCM device plughw:0,0 for capture.
Can't connect to ALSA
There I go, silly me, just expecting things to work! ;-)
--
David
gnome(a)hawaii.rr.com
authenticity, honesty, community
4:23 a.m.
New subject: [linux-audio-user] ANN: JOST, a simple host for native VST - juce and gui theming
david@eurolap:~$ ams
LADSPA_PATH: /usr/lib/ladspa
loadPath: , savePath:
Preset path now /usr/share/doc/ams/demos
Alsa_driver: Cannot open PCM device plughw:0,0 for playback.
Alsa_driver: Cannot open PCM device plughw:0,0 for capture.
Can't connect to ALSA
There I go, silly me, just expecting things to work! ;-)
to start AMS with Jack, type
ams --jack
for help try
ams --help
Cheers,
Malte
--
Malte Steiner
media art + development
-www.block4.com-
3:54 p.m.
New subject: [linux-audio-user] ANN: JOST, a simple host for native VST - juce and gui theming
Malte Steiner wrote:
OK, trying that gives me a popup dialog box from AMS saying "Could not
open file," then it started up. Doesn't play anything, but will poke
around with it. Thanks!
--
David
gnome(a)hawaii.rr.com
authenticity, honesty, community
david@eurolap:~$ ams
LADSPA_PATH: /usr/lib/ladspa
loadPath: , savePath:
Preset path now /usr/share/doc/ams/demos
Alsa_driver: Cannot open PCM device plughw:0,0 for playback.
Alsa_driver: Cannot open PCM device plughw:0,0 for capture.
Can't connect to ALSA
There I go, silly me, just expecting things to work! ;-)
to start AMS with Jack, type
ams --jack
11:07 a.m.
New subject: [linux-audio-user] ANN: JOST, a simple host for native VST - juce and gui theming
On 2/28/07, david <gnome(a)hawaii.rr.com> wrote:
david@eurolap:~$ ams
LADSPA_PATH: /usr/lib/ladspa
loadPath: , savePath:
Preset path now /usr/share/doc/ams/demos
Alsa_driver: Cannot open PCM device plughw:0,0 for playback.
Alsa_driver: Cannot open PCM device plughw:0,0 for capture.
Can't connect to ALSA
Sounds like JACK or another application is blocking the sound card.
Lee
3:56 p.m.
New subject: [linux-audio-user] ANN: JOST, a simple host for native VST - juce and gui theming
Lee Revell wrote:
On 2/28/07, david <gnome(a)hawaii.rr.com> wrote:
Didn't have JACK running, but even with JACK running, I can't get it to
play. Will check into things more later - definitely need to get around
to setting up my system properly.
--
David
gnome(a)hawaii.rr.com
authenticity, honesty, community
david@eurolap:~$ ams
LADSPA_PATH: /usr/lib/ladspa
loadPath: , savePath:
Preset path now /usr/share/doc/ams/demos
Alsa_driver: Cannot open PCM device plughw:0,0 for playback.
Alsa_driver: Cannot open PCM device plughw:0,0 for capture.
Can't connect to ALSA
Sounds like JACK or another application is blocking the sound card. 
27 Feb
27 Feb
10:24 p.m.
New subject: [linux-audio-user] ANN: JOST, a simple host for native VST - juce and gui theming
On 2/28/07, Hartmut Noack <zettberlin(a)linuxuse.de> wrote:
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1
Malte Steiner schrieb:
or help out on ingen? I find AMS really, really horrible for modular
stuff and OM quite lovely and ingen is the new om, but Dave could use
a hand.
Loki
I am a developer and I will jump in on some
projects to help Linux
Audio. But also do some of my own projects, I feel the need of realtime
synths, either plugin or standalone.
Great! Thank you! Could you also have a look at ams?:
http://alsamodular.sourceforge.net/
this is one great powerfull realtimesynth and it needs a maintainer
desperately - you might even fork it, but to loose this one entirely
would be a major shame...
> 
28 Feb
28 Feb
6:34 a.m.
New subject: [linux-audio-user] ANN: JOST, a simple host for native VST - juce and gui theming
Loki Davison wrote:
I find AMS really, really horrible for modular
stuff
Interresting.
I find ams much more intuitive and faster to work with than om (didn't
try ingen, is that ready to use?). It's hard for me to pinpoint exactly
what does the difference, but I find I can slam a really nice patch
together in ams in a matter of minutes.
--
peace, love & harmony
Atte
http://www.atte.dk | quintet: http://www.anagrammer.dk
| compositions: http://www.atte.dk/compositions
7:38 a.m.
New subject: [linux-audio-user] ANN: JOST, a simple host for native VST - juce and gui theming
On Wed, Feb 28, 2007 at 11:34:52AM +0100, Atte André Jensen wrote:
Loki Davison wrote:
Hmm. Back when I tried AMS, I had huge problems to get MIDI input working,
wheras with Om, it just worked. Later on the change to midi input nodes
and 2 converter plugins (trigger and node) caused a short Huh? but makes
sense.
Ever considered creating patches for a multitrack MIDI composition
in AMS?
I do it all the time with Om and it works well:
http://www.archive.org/search.php?query=creator%3A%22Thorsten%20Wilms%22%20…
Subpatches rule.
Still, I can't recommend Om, with it being unmaintained, with a choice
between a horrible outdated version and an unofficial one with some
strange bugs.
Ingen is not ready for use. Last I heared is that you might be able to
chain up plugins, bu no saving/loading.
--
Thorsten Wilms
I find AMS really, really horrible for modular
stuff
Interresting.
I find ams much more intuitive and faster to work with than om (didn't
try ingen, is that ready to use?). It's hard for me to pinpoint exactly
what does the difference, but I find I can slam a really nice patch
together in ams in a matter of minutes.
7:46 a.m.
New subject: [linux-audio-user] ANN: JOST, a simple host for native VST - juce and gui theming
Thorsten Wilms wrote:
Hmm. Back when I tried AMS, I had huge problems to get
MIDI input working,
wheras with Om, it just worked. Later on the change to midi input nodes
and 2 converter plugins (trigger and node) caused a short Huh? but makes
sense.
I never had any problems with ams, besides a few crashes (which is one
reason it's sad it isn't maintained). Here it just worked.
Ever considered creating patches for a multitrack MIDI
composition
in AMS?
Yes, and I did! Just start several instances of ams...
Still, I can't recommend Om, with it being
unmaintained, with a choice
between a horrible outdated version and an unofficial one with some
strange bugs.
Ingen is not ready for use. Last I heared is that you might be able to
chain up plugins, bu no saving/loading.
There you go!
I'm sure there's alot of brilliant ideas and code in om/ingen and it
might rock big time in the future. But without any stable release it's
not really (for me at least) to be considered a player.
--
peace, love & harmony
Atte
http://www.atte.dk | quintet: http://www.anagrammer.dk
| compositions: http://www.atte.dk/compositions
8:19 a.m.
New subject: [linux-audio-user] ANN: JOST, a simple host for native VST - juce and gui theming
Greetings:
Another thread hijacked. If we're discussing trackers and Linux
softsynths it seems reasonable to CHANGE THE FARKING SUBJECT LINE,
doesn't it ?
Burst,
dp
8:37 a.m.
New subject: [linux-audio-user] ANN: JOST, a simple host for native VST - juce and gui theming
On 2/28/07, Dave Phillips <dlphillips(a)woh.rr.com> wrote:
Greetings:
Another thread hijacked. If we're discussing trackers and Linux
softsynths it seems reasonable to CHANGE THE FARKING SUBJECT LINE,
doesn't it ?
Burst,
dp
Although I've just learned the existence of the word "farking", I
have
to agree not only for the sake folowing easily what's being discused
on the list, but also for the clarity of the archives. The subject
line is an important part of an email on a list...
--
__________________
Marc-Olivier Barre,
Markinoko.
7:15 p.m.
New subject: [linux-audio-user] ANN: JOST, a simple host for native VST - juce and gui theming
Dave Phillips wrote:
Greetings:
Another thread hijacked. If we're discussing trackers and Linux
softsynths it seems reasonable to CHANGE THE FARKING SUBJECT LINE,
doesn't it ?
Burst,
dp
LMAO!
Farking EH!
R
8:22 a.m.
New subject: [linux-audio-user] ANN: JOST, a simple host for native VST - juce and gui theming
On Wed, Feb 28, 2007 at 12:46:29PM +0100, Atte André Jensen wrote:
Ouch. Sure, for 10 or more patches, for every session and after
every crash.
In Om I just make use of a root patch, but without more far
reaching changes to AMS, LASH would be the only hope.
I never had any problems with ams, besides a few
crashes (which is one
reason it's sad it isn't maintained). Here it just worked.
So it just works as long as it doesn't crash.
Ever considered
creating patches for a multitrack MIDI composition
in AMS?
Yes, and I did! Just start several instances of ams... I'm sure there's alot of brilliant ideas and
code in om/ingen and it
might rock big time in the future. But without any stable release it's
not really (for me at least) to be considered a player.
I wouldn't consider the AMS I remember as a stable release.
So I should add that I can't recommend any modular synth, currently.
(not taking PD and co into account, as they're more abstract and much
harder to get into.)
--
Thorsten Wilms
6:30 a.m.
New subject: [linux-audio-user] ANN: JOST, a simple host for native VST - juce and gui theming
Hartmut Noack wrote:
http://alsamodular.sourceforge.net/
this is one great powerfull realtimesynth and it needs a maintainer
desperately - you might even fork it, but to loose this one entirely
would be a major shame...
Amen.
I don't use ams enough, but I'm gonna, and it's really something
special. Along with zynaddsubfx it's bringing synth power to linux users
that for some reason can't/won't use the text driven synths.
--
peace, love & harmony
Atte
http://www.atte.dk | quintet: http://www.anagrammer.dk
| compositions: http://www.atte.dk/compositions
27 Feb
27 Feb
7:41 p.m.
New subject: [linux-audio-user] ANN: JOST, a simple host for native VST - juce and gui theming
On Tue, Feb 27, 2007 at 09:55:56PM +0100, Malte Steiner wrote:
closed applications without questioning it. I dont
think for example
rotary knobs is the most desirable in usability. And a virtual synth
true, but they take up less screen space than sliders.
One day i will write a gtk engine to make rotary/slider a user option,
though it places severe demands on the application developer to be
able to deal with fluid layouts.
regards
--
Tim Orford
10:44 a.m.
On 2/27/07, Thomas Kuther <gimpel(a)sonnenkinder.org> wrote:
I'd say that all of them, KDE, MusE and Rosegarden
are Qt apps.
And if I got that right around IRC, Lucio is not really a fan of Qt.
Qt app is no problem, as they run fine on any desktop environment.
KDE app is a big problem as they pull in hundreds of megabytes of KDE
bloat and start a bunch of useless daemons.
Lee
9:40 a.m.
Am Montag, 26. Februar 2007 14:18 schrieb Michael Bohle:
Hi there,
The italian DJ and Developer Lucio Asnaghi has made a first preview of
simple host for native VST on Linux. Native VST for Linux was founded first
by Jorgen Aase /EnergyXT2, but the communication is problematic (also other
devs reported that Jorgen didn't anwer to any mail), so Lucio decided to
make an own host, based on the framework JUCE , because he porting a lot of
VST Synths to Linux. (he also made a great port from ZynAdd Windows VST
back to Linux VST)
Please read the website and the comments from Lucio, he made an article about
this discussion and he pleased me not to make an ANN in this list about his
apps anymore.
See http://www.anticore.org/jucetice/index.php?entry=entry070226-191811
I see cleary, there are the an old linuxaudio community, like represented
with this list. The old community believes that there is the evil closed
source and that open source heal all wounds and make an ideologic overhead
about this.
The new community, often active musicians, have no problems to get in touch
with "the evil" - The new community is pragmaticly use this what works for
the musicans. And they want Linux, not because of the FSF, more because this
can be an alternative for Windows.
So keep on good work,
CU @ the LAC2007 in Berlin for more discussion
M.
--
.:www.jacklab.net:.
ProAudio for openSUSE Linux
10:18 a.m.
Michael Bohle wrote:
Please read the website and the comments from Lucio, he
made an article about
this discussion and he pleased me not to make an ANN in this list about his
apps anymore.
See http://www.anticore.org/jucetice/index.php?entry=entry070226-191811
Well, that is a remarkably short-sighted response. And it is hardly an
"article" about this discussion.
OTOH I don't demand that Lucio or any other developer explain himself.
I see clearly...
Forgive me, but no, you do not, any more than Lucio does. You've reduced
a complicated state of affairs to an "us vs. them" scenario. Are you
reading my responses ? Do you understand that there is a considerable
middle ground between the polarities of open and closed source ?
There are other developers of Linux audio software who are not active on
LAD or LAU. Interestingly their user-communities are also cut off from
these lists, i.e. there's no communication with the larger world of
Linux audio development. I do not consider that a "good thing", but
again it's a matter of choices, and if those users are happy with the
situation, then more power to them.
Best,
dp
10:54 a.m.
Greetings:
I just wanted to say to Michael that my remarks are not intended as any
sort of personal assault upon him, Lucio, or Jorgen. Michael, I do not
know you, but I trust that your posts have been made in the good faith
that they will be read and responded to by reasonable people. Well,
people who are at least *supposed* to be reasonable. :)
It should be obvious that the issue(s) raised are of rather passionate
interest to the community at large. Fine by me, you've warmed the place
up a bit, I have no problem with that. But please understand that some
of us here have been working with FOSS projects for a rather long time,
and we may have some strong reasons and opinions that have come from
that lengthy involvement.
Developers and users coming from typically closed-source environments
will have much to learn about a world like Linux, but that doesn't mean
the street's one-way only. IMO the Win/Mac audio software world has some
very positive aspects for Linux audio developers to consider, and a
willing spirit won't hurt anyone in either world.
Best,
dp
11:02 a.m.
Hi dp
thank you for your postings, I read them and I'm happy that you take me as a
serious dialogue mate ;)
I'm aware that there a many differences and mixings and not only black and
white. And i see that there is more then this list in the linux audio world.
But i often read here words like "VST must die" or very strange postings from
the gurus of audiolinux...
i try to complete the picture, but it is a dynamic process, changes all the
time.
M.
Michael Bohle wrote:
--
.:www.jacklab.net:.
ProAudio for openSUSE Linux
Please read the website and the comments from
Lucio, he made an article
about this discussion and he pleased me not to make an ANN in this list
about his apps anymore.
See http://www.anticore.org/jucetice/index.php?entry=entry070226-191811
Well, that is a remarkably short-sighted response. And it is hardly an
"article" about this discussion.
OTOH I don't demand that Lucio or any other developer explain himself.
I see clearly...
Forgive me, but no, you do not, any more than Lucio does. You've reduced
a complicated state of affairs to an "us vs. them" scenario. Are you
reading my responses ? Do you understand that there is a considerable
middle ground between the polarities of open and closed source ?
There are other developers of Linux audio software who are not active on
LAD or LAU. Interestingly their user-communities are also cut off from
these lists, i.e. there's no communication with the larger world of
Linux audio development. I do not consider that a "good thing", but
again it's a matter of choices, and if those users are happy with the
situation, then more power to them.
Best,
dp
11:32 a.m.
On Tue, 2007-02-27 at 16:59 +0100, Michael Bohle wrote:
I'm aware that there a many differences and
mixings and not only black and
white. And i see that there is more then this list in the linux audio world.
But i often read here words like "VST must die" or very strange postings from
the gurus of audiolinux...
no no, seriously, VST _must_ die! there is no way around it! perhaps in
20 years, or in 40 years, but it must!
hardcore, on the other side, will never die.
--
Leonard Ritter
-- Freelance Art & Logic
-- http://www.leonard-ritter.com
12:21 p.m.
Michael Bohle wrote:
I'm aware that there a many differences and mixings
and not only black and
white. And i see that there is more then this list in the linux audio world.
But i often read here words like "VST must die" or very strange postings from
the gurus of audiolinux...
All things must die, including VST.
For the record, I just tried out JOST. It's interesting, and for those
who haven't yet tried it, here's how it works:
1) Download the jost binary.
2) Download and compile some of the ported VST plugins.
3) Copy or rename the jost binary to the name of a ported plugin (in the
same directory as the jost executable), minus the .so extension. Thus,
given /home/dave/jost and /home/dave/Transverb.so :
cp jost Transverb
4) Start JACK.
5) Run the newly-named binary, e.g. ./Transverb
6) Make audio and MIDI connections via QJackCtl or whatever you use.
It's all proof-of-concept and first-stage stuff right now, but it works
smoothly at what it sets out to achieve. I've only tested the Transverb
plugin, I'll test some more this afternoon. Nice work, but I miss the
source code.
Michael, if you'd like to inform Lucio you can tell him that I'll be
profiling JOST in my next blog entry for the Linux Journal, it should go
on-line tomorrow, Flame-retardant suits will not be necessary. :)
Best,
dp
10:24 a.m.
On Tue, Feb 27, 2007 at 03:23:40PM +0100, Michael Bohle wrote:
Please read the website and the comments from Lucio, he made an article about
this discussion and he pleased me not to make an ANN in this list about his
apps anymore.
See http://www.anticore.org/jucetice/index.php?entry=entry070226-191811
That's just childish. And I say that as 28 years old with only few years
of interest in linux audio.
I see cleary, there are the an old linuxaudio
community, like represented
with this list. The old community believes that there is the evil closed
source and that open source heal all wounds and make an ideologic overhead
about this.
You are way too fast to make up groups like that.
Ever considered that you actually deal with a bunch of individuals whos
optinions on any little detail might be different or not?
I didn't see anyone saying closed source would be evil. There are
disadvantages to closed source and some of use are not willing to
accept them, either generally or in certain cases.
We saw valid and rational arguments on the pros and cons of starting
new projects instead of joining established ones. Can't you just take
them without going all emotional and setting up a fence?
The new community, often active musicians, have no
problems to get in touch
with "the evil" - The new community is pragmaticly use this what works for
the musicans. And they want Linux, not because of the FSF, more because this
can be an alternative for Windows.
So not being able to redistribute the VST SDK or native Linux VSTs in
binary form is no problem if you are just pragmatic?
What is pragmatic about ignoring legal problems?
--
Thorsten Wilms
10:30 a.m.
On Tue, 2007-02-27 at 15:23 +0100, Michael Bohle wrote:
I see cleary, there are the an old linuxaudio
community, like represented
with this list. The old community believes that there is the evil closed
source and that open source heal all wounds and make an ideologic overhead
about this.
pointless, not evil. there are also licencing issues. you ignore that.
the idea of bringing vst to linux is flawed like the idea of bringing
democracy to the middle east, but you will notice that short enough.
The new community, often active musicians, have no
problems to get in touch
with "the evil" - The new community is pragmaticly use this what works for
the musicans. And they want Linux, not because of the FSF, more because this
can be an alternative for Windows.
great! maybe your naive approach to these issues will actually rule out
all these well-thought arguments!
you seem to forget why linux exists in the first place. if we have to
give up the values that created this operating system in order to get
where we want, it isn't worth it. you are helping to create a second
windows. again, i did not move away from windows to have that golden
cage follow me! i hate debugging black boxes! i hate working with
binaries built from code i am not allowed to read or modify! i hate bug
reports from users using closed source plugins within my application (so
does the kernel team, check their bugzilla 'enter new bug' page for a
smile) this is a PRAGMATICAL question, not a question of good and evil,
damn it!
--
Leonard Ritter
-- Freelance Art & Logic
-- http://www.leonard-ritter.com
6468
days inactive
6470
days old
linux-audio-user@lists.linuxaudio.org
93 comments
30 participants
participants (30)
-
Atte André Jensen -
Bengt Gördén -
Chris Cannam -
Dave Griffiths -
Dave Phillips -
David -
david -
Folderol -
Hartmut Noack -
James Stone -
Jan Weil -
Josh Lawrence -
Ken Restivo -
Ketil Thorgersen -
Lars Luthman -
Lee Revell -
Leonard Ritter -
Loki Davison -
Maarten de Boer -
Malte Steiner -
Marc-Olivier Barre -
Michael Bohle -
Nils Winkler -
Paul Davis -
Pieter Palmers -
Russell Hanaghan -
Thomas Kuther -
Thorsten Wilms -
Tim Orford -
Tim Orford