6 Jan
2013
6 Jan
'13
11:53 a.m.
From earlier talk about sample rates, it appears that
for recording audio,
48k is better than 44.1. Having decided that, what other issues
cross my
path if I default my audio rate to 48k? All of my softsynths seem to
work... I do wonder about samplers though. Are the samples mostly in 44.1k
if they come on a CD? Would that make them off-key when used? Would they
get rate-changed on the fly? Would that use more CPU? (questions,
questions, questions)
It does not seem to affect my desktop, flash, ogg, mp3, ac3 etc. all
playback fine. Pulse seems to be doing more work though at least when
playing a CD. I'm pushing it pretty hard though, I have it bridged to
jackdbus with -p64 so Pulse has to keep up.
I'm just wondering why Ubuntu (which presumably means Debian too),
qjackctl, Pulse and lots of other audio apps all seem to default to 44.1k.
Speaking as one of the devs for the Ubuntu Studio distro, I'm wondering
how much trouble I'm going to get for asking for 48k default sample rate
in audio.
--
Len Ovens
www.OvenWerks.net
6 Jan
6 Jan
8:18 p.m.
On Jan 6, 2013 5:54 AM, "Len Ovens" <len(a)ovenwerks.net> wrote:
Are the samples mostly in 44.1k
if they come on a CD?
Not necessarily.
Would that make them off-key when used? Would they
get rate-changed on the fly? Would that use more CPU? (questions,
questions, questions)
In my experience, yes; the apps I use seem to almost always manage that
stuff for me to the point that I rarely think about it.
It does not seem to affect my desktop, flash, ogg,
mp3, ac3 etc. all
playback fine. Pulse seems to be doing more work though at least when
playing a CD. I'm pushing it pretty hard though, I have it bridged to
jackdbus with -p64 so Pulse has to keep up.
I'm just wondering why Ubuntu (which presumably means Debian too),
qjackctl, Pulse and lots of other audio apps all seem to default to 44.1k.
Speaking as one of the devs for the Ubuntu Studio distro, I'm wondering
how much trouble I'm going to get for asking for 48k default sample rate
in audio.
--
Len Ovens
www.OvenWerks.net
_______________________________________________
Linux-audio-user mailing list
Linux-audio-user(a)lists.linuxaudio.org
http://lists.linuxaudio.org/listinfo/linux-audio-user
11:17 p.m.
On Sunday 06 January 2013, at 04.38.01, "Len Ovens" <len(a)ovenwerks.net>
wrote:
[...]
I do wonder about samplers though. Are the samples
mostly in 44.1k
if they come on a CD? Would that make them off-key when used? Would they
get rate-changed on the fly? Would that use more CPU? (questions,
questions, questions)
[...]
A sampler (software or hardware) is typically resampling everything on the fly
anyway, modulating the pitch in response to pitch bend events, LFOs, envelopes
etc. It's one of the most fundamental features of sampling as a synthesis
method. Traditionally, an instrument would only have one or a few samples per
octave, so resampling was required to even implement note pitch at all.
These multi-gigabyte piano and orchestral sound disks may not make much use of
that feature, but that's a special use case that came with live streaming from
disk and machines with gigabytes of RAM. I'd think even samplers built
specifically for this would still have the usual resampling features, and
should work with any output sample rate - but of course, you're not getting
any advantages from 48 kHz if you're still playing 44.1 kHz sample libraries
of that kind.
--
//David Olofson - Consultant, Developer, Artist, Open Source Advocate
.--- Games, examples, libraries, scripting, sound, music, graphics ---.
| http://consulting.olofson.net http://olofsonarcade.com |
'---------------------------------------------------------------------'
7 Jan
7 Jan
3:16 a.m.
On Sun, January 6, 2013 3:17 pm, David Olofson wrote:
On Sunday 06 January 2013, at 04.38.01, "Len
Ovens" <len(a)ovenwerks.net>
wrote:
[...]
So as long as Jack is reporting the correct rate everything will be fine.
I do wonder about samplers though. Are the
samples mostly in 44.1k
if they come on a CD? Would that make them off-key when used? Would they
get rate-changed on the fly? Would that use more CPU? (questions,
questions, questions)
[...]
A sampler (software or hardware) is typically resampling everything on the
fly
anyway, modulating the pitch in response to pitch bend events, LFOs,
envelopes
etc. It's one of the most fundamental features of sampling as a synthesis
method. Traditionally, an instrument would only have one or a few samples
per
octave, so resampling was required to even implement note pitch at all.
These multi-gigabyte piano and orchestral sound disks may not make much
use of
that feature, but that's a special use case that came with live streaming
from
disk and machines with gigabytes of RAM. I'd think even samplers built
specifically for this would still have the usual resampling features, and
should work with any output sample rate - but of course, you're not
getting
any advantages from 48 kHz if you're still playing 44.1 kHz sample
libraries
of that kind.
With a sampler there would be no advantage, true. To only be using a
sampler though would generally be live use of sampler and other
softsynths. Though there are reports that the hardware is better optimized
for 48K than 44.1k so the output sound _may_ be improved. On the other
hand, if there is any recording being done and the sampler is being used
only as one or two tracks with many live inputs, the live inputs do
benefit and the overall sound quality _should_ be higher. We wouldn't
record the whole project at 12bits and 32k just because we are using a
vintage synth that uses 12 bits at 32k to generate it's sound, but we
might still use that synth because we like it's sound. (no I don't know if
there is a real synth that uses that combination :)
--
Len Ovens
www.OvenWerks.net
1:56 a.m.
Having decided that, what other issues cross my
path if I default my audio rate to 48k?
Mainly, clocking issues. If for some reason an application thinks it is
running in 44.1 but the system is at 48, there will be playback issues like
pops and the likes.. I know I ran into this working with Reaper using Wine.
Perhaps not much of a 21st century issue, but if you are making projects
that you intend to put onto CD, you will have to downsample to 44.1hz at
16-bit, as this is the Red Book specification for CD quality audio. A
trivial task, but still time consuming and an extra step to think about.
Speaking as one of the devs for the Ubuntu Studio distro, I'm wondering
how much trouble I'm going to get for asking for
48k default sample rate
in audio.
It really depends on what the target audience for the audio software. In
the pro audio-music world, 44.1khz is still more widely used because it has
been a standard for years in digital audio for CD, and I honestly don't see
it changing to 48khz anytime soon (96/24 would be the next "level" you
would typically find.) A 48khz sample rate is used (almost exclusively) in
the film industry for synching audio to visual media rather than pure
audio. Games, movie, and television audio are in a 48khz format at minimal.
From a recording standpoint, it would be much more
beneficial to change the
bitrate at 24 bits instead of the default 16, as you get
more dynamic range
and headroom in the recording process.
On Sat, Jan 5, 2013 at 10:38 PM, Len Ovens <len(a)ovenwerks.net> wrote:
> From earlier talk about sample rates, it appears that for recording audio,
> 48k is better than 44.1. Having decided that, what other issues cross my
> path if I default my audio rate to 48k? All of my softsynths seem to
> work... I do wonder about samplers though. Are the samples mostly in 44.1k
> if they come on a CD? Would that make them off-key when used? Would they
> get rate-changed on the fly? Would that use more CPU? (questions,
> questions, questions)
>
> It does not seem to affect my desktop, flash, ogg, mp3, ac3 etc. all
> playback fine. Pulse seems to be doing more work though at least when
> playing a CD. I'm pushing it pretty hard though, I have it bridged to
> jackdbus with -p64 so Pulse has to keep up.
>
> I'm just wondering why Ubuntu (which presumably means Debian too),
> qjackctl, Pulse and lots of other audio apps all seem to default to 44.1k.
>
> Speaking as one of the devs for the Ubuntu Studio distro, I'm wondering
how much trouble I'm going to get for asking for
48k default sample rate
in audio.
>
>
> --
> Len Ovens
> www.OvenWerks.net
>
> _______________________________________________
> Linux-audio-user mailing list
> Linux-audio-user(a)lists.linuxaudio.org
> http://lists.linuxaudio.org/listinfo/linux-audio-user
>
4:37 a.m.
On Sun, January 6, 2013 5:55 pm, Ralph Bluecoat wrote:
So wine was not told the correct clock speed. Funny, I ran into the same
problem... My laptop has a mic that is 48k only and it makes clicks and
pop when pulse is set to default at 44.1k.
What comes from the card is what comes from the card. We can't change
that. We'll take 24bit by default if we get it already. However, from the
time it hits jack it is 32 bit (floating) and all 24 bits are preserved.
16 bit has not been the default for pro or even semipro (or consumer for
that matter) for 10 years or more. (I've had my D66, 24bit/44.1k to 96k
that long and it has never been "top of the pile")
Yup, CDs are 44.1k/16bit. But why record that way? 48k (or 96k if you can
afford it) is better than 44.1k on almost all computer IFs by design.
A week or two ago I would have said use 44.1k if that is what you want to
end up with. but there have been many convincing reasons for me to change
my default to 48K related on this mailing list (at least with the older HW
I have)... and as it doesn't seem to degrade normal desktop performance,
48K seems a good place to default to. Someone who has the gear is already
looking for how they have to change things to use 96K, but default of 48K
should work with any non-broken SW. I have gone through all my audio
related SW on my system with no problems so far.
--
Len Ovens
www.OvenWerks.net
Having decided that, what other issues cross my
path if I default my audio rate to 48k?
Mainly, clocking issues. If for some reason an application thinks it is
running in 44.1 but the system is at 48, there will be playback issues
like
pops and the likes.. I know I ran into this working with Reaper using
Wine. Perhaps not much of a 21st century issue, but if you
are making projects
that you intend to put onto CD, you will have to downsample to 44.1hz at
16-bit, as this is the Red Book specification for CD quality audio. A
trivial task, but still time consuming and an extra step to think about.
Apparently not. Again that has been discussed in the last few weeks on
this list. It is just an export option during mixdown which has to be done
anyway.
Speaking as one of the devs for the Ubuntu Studio distro, I'm wondering
The pro audio world as represented by this list seems to disagree at least
to some extent. 96k sounds nice and is used in live work like mixing and
such mostly because of it's lower latency. While things are changing there
are a lot of ADAT IFs that are 48/44.1k only, Those that handle 96k, do so
only with the loss of two channels. So 48k is very much still alive. The
semipro world is more likely to choose more inputs over 96k unless their
outboard gear can show the difference.
The internal sound IFs these days are designed around a bus/clocking
system that runs at 48k (actually a multiple there of) and making 44.1k
work requires lots of extra work. In the old ac97 series it seems inputs
and outputs are all 48K with a firmware layer in the onboard DSP for
pretending to work at other rates (read resampling). The newer intel HDA
systems will accept 44.1k raw, but with the bit clock they send out the
extra component cost to derive the right clock to do so is high
(expensive). There is no guarantee it is done with any quality. That is
not even dealing with the higher filtering costs (4x as high if I remember
right) already mentioned in the last two weeks.
Also, as happens, Ubuntu Studio does have a video production audience as
well. 48K would be correct for them too.
how much trouble I'm going to get for asking
for 48k default sample rate
in audio.
It really depends on what the target audience for the audio software. In
the pro audio-music world, 44.1khz is still more widely used because it
has
been a standard for years in digital audio for CD, and I honestly don't
see
it changing to 48khz anytime soon (96/24 would be the next "level" you
would typically find.) A 48khz sample rate is used (almost exclusively) in
the film industry for synching audio to visual media rather than pure
audio. Games, movie, and television audio are in a 48khz format at
minimal. From a recording standpoint, it would be much more
beneficial to change
the
bitrate at 24 bits instead of the default 16, as you get more dynamic
range
and headroom in the recording process. 
5:01 p.m.
On 07. jan. 2013 05:37, Len Ovens wrote:
On Sun, January 6, 2013 5:55 pm, Ralph Bluecoat wrote:
So wine was not told the correct clock speed. Funny, I ran into the same
problem... My laptop has a mic that is 48k only and it makes clicks and
pop when pulse is set to default at 44.1k.
What comes from the card is what comes from the card. We can't change
that. We'll take 24bit by default if we get it already. However, from the
time it hits jack it is 32 bit (floating) and all 24 bits are preserved.
16 bit has not been the default for pro or even semipro (or consumer for
that matter) for 10 years or more. (I've had my D66, 24bit/44.1k to 96k
that long and it has never been "top of the pile")
Yup, CDs are 44.1k/16bit. But why record that way? 48k (or 96k if you can
afford it) is better than 44.1k on almost all computer IFs by design.
A week or two ago I would have said use 44.1k if that is what you want to
end up with. but there have been many convincing reasons for me to change
my default to 48K related on this mailing list (at least with the older HW
I have)... and as it doesn't seem to degrade normal desktop performance,
48K seems a good place to default to. Someone who has the gear is already
looking for how they have to change things to use 96K, but default of 48K
should work with any non-broken SW. I have gone through all my audio
related SW on my system with no problems so far.
Slightly OT, sorry: I recently installed Ubuntu Studio 12.10. At once I
stumbled, failing to start jack or run ardour.
In the meantime I spent some time tweaking office and multimedia
consumption stuff to my likings, so I just let the subject rest for a
while. Then after following this discussion it dawned on me that the
sample rate might be the culprit. And, yes.
For some reason I had put 44.1K. Change to 48k and everything Just
Works. And from what I've learned here I'll stick with that :-)
Alf
Having decided that, what other issues cross my
path if I default my audio rate to 48k?
Mainly, clocking issues. If for some reason an application thinks it is
running in 44.1 but the system is at 48, there will be playback issues
like
pops and the likes.. I know I ran into this working with Reaper using
Wine. Perhaps not much of a 21st century issue, but if
you are making projects
that you intend to put onto CD, you will have to downsample to 44.1hz at
16-bit, as this is the Red Book specification for CD quality audio. A
trivial task, but still time consuming and an extra step to think about.
Apparently not. Again that has been discussed in the last few weeks on
this list. It is just an export option during mixdown which has to be done
anyway.
Speaking as one of the devs for the Ubuntu Studio distro, I'm wondering
The pro audio world as represented by this list seems to disagree at least
to some extent. 96k sounds nice and is used in live work like mixing and
such mostly because of it's lower latency. While things are changing there
are a lot of ADAT IFs that are 48/44.1k only, Those that handle 96k, do so
only with the loss of two channels. So 48k is very much still alive. The
semipro world is more likely to choose more inputs over 96k unless their
outboard gear can show the difference.
The internal sound IFs these days are designed around a bus/clocking
system that runs at 48k (actually a multiple there of) and making 44.1k
work requires lots of extra work. In the old ac97 series it seems inputs
and outputs are all 48K with a firmware layer in the onboard DSP for
pretending to work at other rates (read resampling). The newer intel HDA
systems will accept 44.1k raw, but with the bit clock they send out the
extra component cost to derive the right clock to do so is high
(expensive). There is no guarantee it is done with any quality. That is
not even dealing with the higher filtering costs (4x as high if I remember
right) already mentioned in the last two weeks.
Also, as happens, Ubuntu Studio does have a video production audience as
well. 48K would be correct for them too.
how much trouble I'm going to get for asking
for 48k default sample rate
in audio.
It really depends on what the target audience for the audio software. In
the pro audio-music world, 44.1khz is still more widely used because it
has
been a standard for years in digital audio for CD, and I honestly don't
see
it changing to 48khz anytime soon (96/24 would be the next "level" you
would typically find.) A 48khz sample rate is used (almost exclusively) in
the film industry for synching audio to visual media rather than pure
audio. Games, movie, and television audio are in a 48khz format at
minimal. From a recording standpoint, it would be much more
beneficial to change
the
bitrate at 24 bits instead of the default 16, as you get more dynamic
range
and headroom in the recording process.
9:34 p.m.
On Mon, January 7, 2013 9:01 am, Alf Haakon Lund wrote:
Slightly OT, sorry: I recently installed Ubuntu Studio
12.10. At once I
stumbled, failing to start jack or run ardour.
In the meantime I spent some time tweaking office and multimedia
consumption stuff to my likings, so I just let the subject rest for a
while. Then after following this discussion it dawned on me that the
sample rate might be the culprit. And, yes.
For some reason I had put 44.1K. Change to 48k and everything Just
Works. And from what I've learned here I'll stick with that :-)
Actually, Ubuntu in general defaults to 44.1k, so it wasn't your fault.
I'm trying to change that for 13.04 (which has other jack problems just
now). I am glad it all works for you though.
--
Len Ovens
www.OvenWerks.net
10:02 p.m.
On Sun, Jan 06, 2013 at 08:37:11PM -0800, Len Ovens wrote:
On Sun, January 6, 2013 5:55 pm, Ralph Bluecoat
wrote:
48 kHz is the standard rate in audio broadcasting as well, apart from
TV and movies.
Something like 25-30 years ago,when I was working at BRT, the Belgian
public radio/TV network, the first radio studios were being converted
to digital. All 48 kHz, even if the only digital signals at that time
were from the CD players - they were just resampled before entering
the mixer (this required an expensive 1U rack equipment for each CD
player, don't remember the type or brand). DAT players were only added
later.
About a year later the music studios went digital, again all 48 kHz.
Can't could the number of CDs I mixed there.
Even that long ago 44.1 kHz was considered 'legacy', an unfortunate
compromise made for pragmatic reasons when the CD format was defined.
There's really no reason why it should still be used today.
Ciao,
--
FA
A world of exhaustive, reliable metadata would be an utopia.
It's also a pipe-dream, founded on self-delusion, nerd hubris
and hysterically inflated market opportunities. (Cory Doctorow)
A 48khz sample rate is used (almost exclusively)
in
the film industry for synching audio to visual media rather than pure
audio. Games, movie, and television audio are in a 48khz format at
minimal.
The pro audio world as represented by this list seems to disagree at least
to some extent. 96k sounds nice and is used in live work like mixing and
such mostly because of it's lower latency.
4445
days inactive
4446
days old
linux-audio-user@lists.linuxaudio.org
8 comments
6 participants
participants (6)
-
Alf Haakon Lund -
David Olofson -
Fons Adriaensen -
Len Ovens -
Neil -
Ralph Bluecoat